Author Topic: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE (the other dust seal)  (Read 4549 times)

Offline totty

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2017, 03:05:19 PM »
Heat evenly till the seals smoke and they'll pop out easily - even the ones where a PO has used stud lock or similar on them.

Offline ffoy

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2017, 04:32:51 PM »
Well the heat, or more specifically, hot water worked a treat  :D

I didn't think it would help that much as despite being the best day of the year (17 degrees!!) there was a chilly wind and it would dissipate the heat of the water as soon as it hit the cold air.

I started with the seal I'd wrestled with the night before. Stood the leg up in vice. Poured boiled water on and levered with my improvised tool and out it popped  ;D You can see from the pic of the rear-face how much damaged it was trying to remove it cold.

So bouyed by this success I started stripping the other leg and as the screw in the bottom (holding damper assy) was proving tight to budge poured some hot water on the alloy leg and it then yielded. Not sure the water did that tho.

Anyway whilst I separated the damper & spring from the stanchion I left the leg upside down in some newly-boiled water then tried popping the seal without even scraping away the corrosion or putting any penetrating fluid on it and it came out no problem.

I'm therefore convinced this is the key to getting fork-seals out of alloy legs  :D



aftermath of light wresting-match with cold seal




same seal popped out easily after pouring boiled water on



underside of seal shows more evidence of struggle. I have still to examine cross-section but it felt concave rather than right-angled



now to tackle leg #2. bent stanchion is clear in this pic



mark on dust-cover suggest someone has been here before



prising cover off reveals wadding again. this doesn't appear in parts list but there is something that goes in there apparently



retaining clip comes out easily



Allen key not ideal but without suitable bit for socket-set had to do. held in vice and leg turned for max leverage



once screw is removed stanchion and damper pull out top of fork leg




not a good picture but there was definitely some sort of locking-compound on the screw



I like date stamps and casting marks. pretty sure this & means 1987 as the other fork legs I have show 5 which would be 1985



this leg was sat in boiled water for a while. seal popped out easily with practically no damage


next important issue to address is leaking fuel tank
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 09:16:22 PM by ffoy »

Offline Bryanj

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2017, 06:14:48 PM »
Way back when, we found the most common reason for a replaced seal leaking was damage to the inside of the hole where the old seal was prised out. careful dressing and a small amount of rtv cured about 85% of them

Offline ffoy

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2017, 10:48:12 PM »
Way back when, we found the most common reason for a replaced seal leaking was damage to the inside of the hole where the old seal was prised out. careful dressing and a small amount of rtv cured about 85% of them

Cheers Bryanj. Hopefully won't need that but good to know.

Anyway I shouldn't really be posting tonight as no real progress made this week. However...

I planned to polish the wheels this week and thought it would be difficult to get a good finish. or some reason I thought they would be anodised or have a lacquer on them and be corroded in some places but not others so maybe not get uniform finish.

Well I did about 1/4 of one side of the front wheel with Solvol Autosol and was blown away by the result. Seems like bare alloy and polishes up lovely with very little effort.

Am looking fwd to doing them first day off I get.

Incidentally. These wheels seem to be selling for about £120 each on Ebay.

They must be in demand for use on other machines as there seems to be a disproportionate amount of CB125 TDC/TDE wheels listed for sale on their own. Also other parts for these bikes don't command high prices.

I've also not seen any TDCs/TDEs with different wheels (although the TDJ came from factory with a different type) so ppl might actually just be breaking the bikes to sell the wheels  :-\

Offline ffoy

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2017, 01:26:17 AM »
So I got the wheel polished today. Could've/should've got more done but got offered the wonderful opportunity to make a few bob taking rust off metal tubing that forms the cages in kennels next to where I rent my workspace then painting it in Jotun Conseal. The rust was so bad it seemed pointless but piqued my interest for two reasons....

Firstly - the frame of this bike will need some tarting-up and I've been down the powdercoat route too many times now that I fancy a more basic approach on this one. I've always believed the only way to strip rust permanently from steel is by blasting or chemical dipping but I used one of those wire twist cup things today that goes on the thread of your angle grinder.

I reckon it will do a decent job of prepping Francis for some new black gloss. I've also got good black coachpaint and proper thinners for it and synthetic enamel (the posh name for tractor paint) looks really good sprayed imo. So we'll see how it goes.

The other reason is the Jotun paint I was using specifies using  a dedicated thinner (Jotun No. 7) which I didn't have but Googled tonight. It says it's for acrylic paints and I've been looking for acrylic thinners for some time (loong story) so that was interesting.

Anyway. Here's the front wheel. Am thinking mb the previous owner(s) polished these regularly as they are in vgc and there seems to be traces of old polish in the joints. It's nice when something is easy to do after so many grimy jobs



Comstar wheel. before   



and after quick polish. brake disc needs cleaning-up
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 01:45:15 AM by ffoy »

Offline ffoy

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2017, 11:53:31 PM »
Not a huge update really but at least it's varied.

I picked up a NOS dust-seal for the forks. This isn't the actual oil seal rather the part which sits on top of the fork-bottom. Not much good having only one but it was cheap and will encourage me to look for another. They seem to be a bit thin on the ground actually but it's not a major issue as I don't think the originals I have are in bad condition.

Often with parts like oil seals you can establish the spec of the part and buy a part it cheaper direct from bearing-supplier or similar. As opposed to buying it in a Yamaha/Honda/Kawasuki wrapper. The markings on the seal are NOK BR1791E. I can find NOK seals but not this specific type so will need to search for a Honda one.

Next up is a front-brake M/C with lever etc that I got on Ebay for 99p plus £5.00 P&P. Again I'm not sure if I actually need it but at that price it was too good to pass up on. Also with my RD250 the M/C was a major stumbling-block in the resto as the rebuild kits were expensive and used units are going for crazy prices when they were probably worth nothing 10 years ago. I think it will go the same way with the 125 Superdream.

Lastly. Fuel tank sealer. There is a hole in the tank and I was waiting on having a spare £20 or so to buy a tin of POR-15 (great stuff) to sort the leak before I re-spray it. I got a bit of a fright when I went into my watch-list on Ebay and the item had increased in price from around £20 to £120. I quickly bought a tin from France for £25 inc P&P. Now I've bought loads of the Quart size tins over the last couple of decades but never the half-pint. It's tiny! Can't believe ppl actually paid over £100 for it  :o



NOS fork dust seal. brand is NOK but looks like it is specific to this machine only







Ebay yields 2nd-hand front brake M/C for 99p



very small tin of POR 15. Ebay 'sold listings' shows these have sold for over £100. this was £14 plus £10 P&P

Offline ffoy

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE (fuel tank)
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2017, 12:09:39 AM »
Ok, so I got my tin of sealer and then finally got a couple of days off. After having a major tidy up in the barn (to focus my mind) I finally turned to Francis.

I expected there to be a problem with the tank other than the fact that it leaked as the previous owner (Hannah) had told me there was 'white paint stuff' in the tank. She'd been told this by a mechanic or someone who was tasked with sorting out some problem with the fuel supply from the tap. Can't remember exactly what but it ended up with a car fuel filter tie-wrapped onto the carb and some convoluted hoses.

So I whipped the tank off, which is easy on these bikes as there's no balance pipe, and immediately heard something knocking around inside it. It was the white paint stuff. I'd expected to have to dissolve it, with paint thinners perhaps, but after sitting unused for a long time it had cleanly separated from the tank, which looks pretty clean inside too.

So all I needed to do was shake it out the filler-hole....

Not so easy - for a couple of reasons: some of the lumps are too big but worse than that the filler-hole has a collar inside which almost reaches the top of the tunnel-pressing opposite. I found I could shake some out by revolving the tank - on its fore and aft axis - but for the bigger bits I had to wait till they appeared on top of the collar with tank upside down then press them against the tunnel bit and cut them with chisels. It's gonna take a while lol



one scruffy little machine


area around centre-stand particularly scruffy



disappointed at state of sidestand that I lovingly fitted to bike and was painted in Glasurit epoxy primer with enamel topcoat




take these off to remove tank



after removing sidepanels as they clip into tank



this screw was unexpectedly tight and corroded



sidepanel lugs are thankfully intact



person who fitted all this also told owner about white 'paint' inside tank



and it has came off in large lumps which won't come out filler-hole



also finding its way into fuel tap which may explain the recently-added filter


some of it shakes out tho



this is what I got out today





 

Offline mike the bike

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE (fuel tank)
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2017, 07:50:42 AM »
FFS.  Has he been using polyfilla as a tank sealant?
Where's that 10mm socket got to?

Offline ffoy

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE (fuel tank)
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2017, 10:39:53 AM »
FFS.  Has he been using polyfilla as a tank sealant?

lol. I'd like to find out. The bike is local so I probably could but I'll be happy just to get it out. Even if I just get the lumps out the POR15 will stick down any flakes that remain inside.

Offline Johnwebley

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE (fuel tank)
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2017, 12:50:38 PM »
its coming along Foy,

  keep up the good work !!!
lifelong motorcycle rider,and fan

Offline Seabeowner

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE (fuel tank)
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2017, 01:44:59 PM »
A tank that I have is coated inside very badly with white sealant. I thought it was Kreem. Paintwork on the outside is very good. How did you break it up? I thought about rattling it with a load of nuts/bolt inside.
Phil
1971  CB500K0  Candy Jade Green or Candy Gold
1973  CB500K1  Candy Ruby Red
1975  CB550F1   Shiny Orange
1978  CB550K     Excel Black

Offline ffoy

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE (fuel tank)
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2017, 02:17:15 PM »
A tank that I have is coated inside very badly with white sealant. I thought it was Kreem. Paintwork on the outside is very good. How did you break it up? I thought about rattling it with a load of nuts/bolt inside.

It possibly is Kreem or some other dedicated tank sealer but am not sure as I've only ever used POR15. The stuff in this tank has somehow broken up before I got there. I don't think nuts and bolts would break this as it's not brittle enough. My thinking is that any bits that stay attached to the tank won't cause any problems under the POR15 so am just going to get the big lumps out.

Shook a good bit more out yesterday  8)

Offline ffoy

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE (fuel tank sealed)
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2017, 02:14:46 AM »
Ok. So that's the tank sealed. Not a huge deal to say about that apart from.....

  • it only took another afternoon's shaking and cutting lumps with chisels to get the loose stuff out
  • there was definitely still white stuff attached to inside of tank and putting a few screws in to shake at it didn't loosen much more
  • it was almost impossible to get the lid off the tin of sealer
  • the tank appears to have been brazed before as well as being sealed
  • POR15 is like silicon sealer: no matter how careful you are it ends up places you don't want it. like penetrating two pairs of jeans and halfway up my wrist 


So I could see the tank has a few rust spots and was thinking about immersing it in vinegar to remove these, so I'm not painting over rust later on, but I figured this would just cause more delays and there's no reason I can't dip it after the inside is sealed. I very much doubt the vinegar will unseal the POR15 and if it does will be a fantastic discovery for ppl around the world who may want to remove it from their tanks.

Regarding the paint on the bike. It's non-standard and seems to have been done 'professionally' as the orange (?) undercoat is probably etch-primer but it's not that great overall: basic attempt at graphics; doesn't polish up well, metallic-float under lacquer.

I'm going to have to re-paint all the 'tinware' and want to make it OEM design but not necessarily the paint scheme it originally came with. The CB125T had 3 phases of paintwork but none of the graphics seem to be easily available apart from the TDC ones so unless I go for them I'm going to paint the graphics on. It won't be difficult and I have some nice candy paint which I'll use for the 'decals'. Whilst looking for images of the various schemes I found a very eye-catching design on the Japanese market bikes which I'm going to try to replicate if I don't go for the correct 1987 TDE design. Silver would probably be the most sensible choice for the basic colour but a solid colour would be easier to paint so might go for black, or white.

Whilst I was working on the tank I had a look at the fuel tap. I'm not sure how it was made but there is a steel nut on the alloy body which isn't detachable and it's pretty rusty. Also the 10mm 'nut' on the bowl was a bit worn so I thought was going to have problems taking the bowl off to clean the filter but a little Imperial spanner proved to be a snug fit and it came off fine and I could clean the pieces of white tank-liner out. I've got a feeling the seal (nut to tank) isn't original but am sure I can get another one.



got all the loose stuff out



tank looks reasonably clean inside




tank has various rusty area outside


lower rear RHS which was weeping thru paint has been brazed before and has a lot of filler



had some difficulty getting lid off tin of sealer



so much so that even with whole lid unfolded it still wouldn't open!



'nut' on fuel-tap bowl was too worn for 10mm socket/spanner so improvised with Imperial spanner


which was handy as there were pieces of white stuff in there



as well as in drilling from upper chamber



filter looks fine but seal might be wrong as it was trapped between securing-nut and tap-body 



quite like the Japanese-market paint scheme
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 02:18:37 AM by ffoy »

Offline ffoy

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE (electrics working)
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2017, 09:43:29 PM »
So with tank sealed and better forks on the next thing for Francis was to re-instate his wiring.

But before that a small word about original colour....

I found on rear mudguard, under seat, a sticker telling the colour code for the bike: Candy Alamoana Red.

If I'd found this a few weeks ago it would have saved me hours of Googling to try and work out the right colour but it's a moot point anyway as the colour-matched paint available (RS Paints ?) is very expensive and if I was to do another red candy (House of Kolor ?) they are only available as 2K which I don't use.


this sticker tells you all you need to know really

I mentioned at start of this thread that 'he' was laid-up in my barn a few years ago. Well I remember one evening Hannah and her man coming down to work on him and they were removing the headlamp etc. Think this was because everything up front was upset in the crash. I remember suggesting to them to photograph all the wiring connections for later reference.

Well last night I decided to connect everything up. The pictures might have helped but it's not actually that difficult even if you're colour-blind like me. Even on large fancy machines (eg XJR1300) it's much the same as any other bike: main loom connects to wiring from handlebar switches and ignition switch inside headlamp bowl; connect multi-plugs first then deal with any remaining single wires.

I also had a colour-coded wiring diagram I'd printed off the 'net five minutes before leaving the house. It wasn't ideal as it is a bit blurred and some of the connections shown don't exactly match my machine but I don't have the Haynes manual so it was best I could do.


found this just before I embarked on last night's task

There are always some connections on a bike which have been messed around with. It's a pet-hate of mine and the repairs are usually ugly and bewildering and seem to be more common the smaller the machine is  :o

I have about 5 Honda SS50 looms and not one of them didn't have missing connectors or extra bits on them. Conversely on the XJR1300 I am working on it's fine. perhaps people are less inclined to mess with expensive machines.

Anyway Francis has 2 or 3 ubiquitous blue crimped connectors on his loom but they seem to have been done pretty well.



time to sort all this out


main loom spaghetti


one rogue connector on earth? brown? 4-way/5-way? connector


everything from ignition switch is fine


as are connections from RHS handlebar switch




loom from LHS handlebar switch (incorporating headlamp connector) has a rogue blue connector too



just one wire coming from RHS front indicator which also has colour-coded (orange) ring in usual Honda fashion



but LHS indicator has extra (yellow) wires with another rogue connector plus same colour-code ring (orange) as RHS flasher



1st connection was easy: red plug from RHS handle switch to red plug in loom and blue/wite wire which connects over to same on LHS handle switch



ignition switch to main loom easy apart from black/white single wires which show on diagram as being part of multi-plug but aren't on my bike



not quite sure where this black to black one came from and it's not on diagram but sure it's correct



same with this one (grey? & green/red?) which may connect clutch-switch/indicator-relay/diode




single orange (?) wire goes to horn. has to as it's got spade-connector rather than bullet or plug and everything on loom has those   


another easy one but not sure what it's for



this one is single wire from speedo lamp to double connector in loom. not sure why there is an empty one but wiring diagram actually shows single to double



found the other one for horn. single brown(?) spade from main loom



despite being rogue connectors this was obvious as one blue wire is fly-lead from headlamp connector and diagram shows it goes to blue lead from high-beam warning lamp



connector from main loom (coming from rear LH indicator) has connector with 3 spaces for orange leads from LH switch, indicator warning lamp and LH indicator



connection above leads to realisation that the front indicators shouldn't both have orange rings, on their clear leads. RHS one should be light blue



so as with LHS connector we have equivalent light blue one which has misleading orange-ringed wire in it now



tail-lamp was coming on in various switch configurations but no headlamp



also have lots of lights on pod
 

So with everything obvious connected up and battery-charger connected to flat battery I had lots of stuff going on: tail light; indicators (not quite flashing); idiot lights, apart from high-beam; horn; speedo and tacho lights. No headlamp tho...

The only thing I hadn't connected were two of the rogue blue connectors. One on the yellow wires from LH indicator and one on the multi-earth thing. Connected them and hey presto we have headlight.


we had two connectors without a home. one from multi-earth connector and one on yellow leads from LH indicator



once these, apparently unrelated, wires were connected we got headlamp

Only other thing that wasn't working was the blue high-beam idiot light. It was definitely connected so I figured bulb might be out and swapped it with the one from the speedo. After that neither the speedo or high-beam lamp lit up. Will need to investigate further....

Also I'm not sure how the switches work. There's a P symbol on the ignition switch and also on the lighting switch so what do you need to do for parking lights and what works and doesn't work when they're on? And who ever uses them anyway?   :P

Suffice to say I was quite pleased and even gave the starter button a prod but there wasn't enough juice to get anything more than clicking. 


   
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 11:15:27 PM by ffoy »

Offline ffoy

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Re: Francis. The 1987 CB125 TDE (more electrics)
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2017, 01:59:56 AM »
Ok so I spent Saturday fiddling with the electrics and now high-beam is working. Have removed rogue yellow wires from LHS front indicator and established they were there to provide an earth for the indicator. The wiring diagram suggests the indicators should earth through their fixings but I find that a bit puzzling as the little cage they are mounted on seems to be isolated from the frame with rubber bushes. Further investigation needed......

It does now beg the question 'why did I only get headlights when the yellow 'earth' wire was connected to the earth proper?' and now I'm getting them after dispensing with it.

As for the high-beam lamp. It was simply a bad connection on the later-added blue crimp bullet.   

The bike is also cranking over quite well so next step will be fuel. Surely it can't be that easy...


high-beam lamp sorted after simple multi-meter checks revealed power only getting as far as bullet connector on lead from lamp



indicator needed removed to address bent bracket and bodge yellow wire



bending these type of things back into shape is seldom totally successful



conclude that yellow wire is non-standard. put there to provide earth via eyelet round screw which connects bracket to bulb-housing


I also filled the front forks with oil. Well ATF. Don't have a manual to hand but a bit of Googling informed me that Haynes advise 128ml of automatic transmission fluid in each leg and I just happened to have some of that. Not much to say about this really apart from you can easily hold cap-nut with thumb-pressure to stop it flying off when it is fully unthreaded.

Putting it back in is a little worrying as the threads are fine and could be crossed or stripped if they start off squint. I found using a socket was better than a spanner as you can get more downwards pressure but you really need to loosen the handlebar clamp to rotate the bars back a bit so you can get the socket pushing down straight. I also thought I'd fully drained the forks but as you can see from pics there was still quite a bit on mucky fluid coming out



drain-screws removed before filling just in case there was a little old oil still in fork legs


don't be frightened off cap nuts being dangerous when unscrewed. they can be restrained by thumb-pressure


not sure how accurate my dirty measuring jug was but no syringe handy to administer the prescribed 128cc of ATF 



socket is better than spanner for re-fitting caps




 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 08:38:00 PM by ffoy »

 

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