Author Topic: Paint - The blurg defeated  (Read 6450 times)

Offline MrDavo

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2017, 01:21:27 PM »
Right, I'm back from the Manx, no bike related dramas (only a health one - I came back with a swollen foot which turned out to be gout - possibly a result of a burger & beer diet) so I have now talen a dental pick to the bubble to see what was underneath.

Not a rust hole as I feared, but there seems to be filler there, I assume covering a ding, and there was a small crease in it, creating a small void which I guess trapped air that expanded with heat when left out in the sun, forcing up the bubble under the paint. So, down to poor preparation really, like the paint under the crank bearings, spoiling a thorough restoration with a tiny detail.



You can see how the silver coat hasnt stuck to what I presume is a white primer coat and how the bubble has then spread further, unsticking the blue candy from the silver. The 'crease' is top leeft of the white patch.

No sign of any fuel contamination from the inside, the tank seems to have been sealed in the past with POR15 or similar, it all looks to be a uniform smoth primer grey finish inside rather than the dirt and rust I feared I may find in a 46 year old tank.

I'm not sure who will get the job of painting yet, it may be a while before I get the time to remove the headlamp and ears. I may take it to my local auto bodyshop, who recently did a good invisible repair on my 911. One concern I have is shade - the candy colours darken with more paint, without a NOS bit of Candy Ruby Red it will be hard to tell him what to match it to. Either I look and ebay for a small new bit in that colour or a used bit with a patch that has never seen sunlight (Ive had red cars turn pink before and know what a bugger it is for fading in UV light), or maybe just give him a link to the red body kit on the Yamiya site and tell him that's what I want.

At Crich, Trigger told me my stripes aren't quite in the right place, but the paint kit from Andy Kepok has a scrap of paper with measurements, so I'll tell him to use these and not just put the stripes where they are now.

I'm not going to do anything to the bubble site, as it comes under paint preparation I will leave it to the professional to rectify it as he sees fit.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
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Offline MrDavo

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2017, 02:40:20 PM »
I was a bit puzzled as to how there could be a 'crease' in the filler, but on closer inspection I think its a bad edge to a repair patch. I still find it incredidble that someone would think this OK, given that paint quality is all in the preperation, and wonder what sort of blemish would have been showing through before the bubble came up.

Anyhoo, after reading recommendations on here and other forums, I'm toying with the idea of using a specialist bike painter who has done candy before, rather than finding out the hard way whether my local chap is any good at it. Everyone thinks Andy Parnaby's jobs are the dog's danglies, and I don't mind paying a bit more to have it right the first time, especially after the fun and games I had trying to get a side panel done in candy blue green to a reasonable standard locally (3 different painters, the first of which was me, even then it wasn't perfect with dust in the laquer that had to be polished out). He seems to have moved to Wetherby since Ash and others used him in Tockwith, but I found a 2017 number and email for him on a Triumph triple forum.
 
I still don't know how you would paint candy without a sample to match for shade, but hje should have a better idea than my local car body shop of what we are after.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 02:43:37 PM by MrDavo »
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
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Offline Bryanj

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2017, 07:26:34 AM »
Even with a sample its just about impossible to match candy as every pass of colour changes the shade, hence most will only paint sets

Online K2-K6

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2017, 08:03:53 AM »
One way of getting filler not sticking to a repair is by putting it onto non keyed gloss surface ie original paint. Sometimes with a small shallow dent the repairer deems it too small to hold enough filler to reprofile before priming, so they knock it in to a bigger dent prior to filling then fail to sand the surface properly.
I guess that given the approach you've found in the engine then anything is possible.

Offline Trigger

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2017, 08:18:20 AM »
Bryan is right as, paint is my worse nightmare. I have known a painter to paint two tanks in candy with the same paint but, over  two day's. The first tank came out spot on, the second a day later was totally wrong.
Andy is a very good painter but, his prep is not to my preference.
Menno's prep work is the best I have ever seen, he soaks the tanks in acid which strips the inside and out. Then you have a good canvas to start work.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2017, 08:48:25 AM »
I was a bit puzzled as to how there could be a 'crease' in the filler, but on closer inspection I think its a bad edge to a repair patch. I still find it incredidble that someone would think this OK, given that paint quality is all in the preperation, and wonder what sort of blemish would have been showing through before the bubble came up.

Anyhoo, after reading recommendations on here and other forums, I'm toying with the idea of using a specialist bike painter who has done candy before, rather than finding out the hard way whether my local chap is any good at it. Everyone thinks Andy Parnaby's jobs are the dog's danglies, and I don't mind paying a bit more to have it right the first time, especially after the fun and games I had trying to get a side panel done in candy blue green to a reasonable standard locally (3 different painters, the first of which was me, even then it wasn't perfect with dust in the laquer that had to be polished out). He seems to have moved to Wetherby since Ash and others used him in Tockwith, but I found a 2017 number and email for him on a Triumph triple forum.
 
I still don't know how you would paint candy without a sample to match for shade, but hje should have a better idea than my local car body shop of what we are after.

Andrew is still in Tockwith next to John Wyatt's place  at Marston Moor Ind. Estate...I messaged him only last week about painting my CD125 frame in candy red. His number is on my old phone. His home is in Tadcaster though. ..I will dig it out for you as I always talk on Facebook messenger now (just search Andrew Parnaby on FB and his icon picture is a wall clock). I split my paint between him and Menno but like Trigger says Menno's interior cleaning is superb. In all honesty I would recommend both for candy paint and price wise (even post #@%$), there is not a lot in it. Disagree that Andrew's prep isn't up to scratch ..it's just that Menno wins out on the interior prep ..so make sure that your tank in squeaky clean inside if you go to Andy.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 08:52:20 AM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline MrDavo

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2017, 04:04:18 PM »
Menno would be a long drive for me, Tockwith is only an hour or so away by car. The tank has been lined inside as I said, so that isn't a worry for me. The kit I got from eBay has vinyl tank stripes, but if he could get better results painting them they don't have to be used, I can always sell them on.

I have a mobile number and an email for Andrew, but I'll wait till I've had time to take the headlamp and ears off the bike, which means front wheel off and drop the forks, as well as undoing all the spaghetti in the headlamp. I might take the opportunity to fit decent japanese connectors rather than the red Halfords rubbish thats in there now, I have a saved link from this forum for a US supplier.

Last night I got the badges and hardwear off the tank and sidepanels, no real problems. I may be more nervous refitting the tank cap and latch when there is soft new paint everywhere.

1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
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1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline totty

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2017, 04:35:07 PM »
I wouldn't trust an old unknown liner, if it leaks or lifts then it risks damaging your nice new paintwork. A small leak can produce blisters like the one you started with.

I'd take the opportunity to remove it if possible and to braze any holes it may be sealing. I've had both petseal and POR15 liners fail, in my opinion they're a last resort to use only when necessary.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2017, 05:05:22 PM »
I wouldn't trust an old unknown liner, if it leaks or lifts then it risks damaging your nice new paintwork. A small leak can produce blisters like the one you started with.

I'd take the opportunity to remove it if possible and to braze any holes it may be sealing. I've had both petseal and POR15 liners fail, in my opinion they're a last resort to use only when necessary.

I think Andrew used to use Flowliner www.flowliner.co.uk/ for bad tanks ..or cuts them open, blasts then re-welds. He probably uses Flowliner  as they are not far from him and he knows them. Personally I would agree and go back to bare metal wherever possible ....  Got to admit that if I have a tank with internal corrosion I would be swaying towards Menno and his cleaning process... Delivery of my 500 tank and panels with ample insurance to Germany, last year, was about 16 quid from memory. Andrew insists on painting the 750 stripes on and won't use transfers, I guess Menno may do the same. My 750K0 tank deffo had painted on stripes from new. I am not  sure what was used on K1's onwards though. Graham will know.
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline MrDavo

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2017, 06:51:21 PM »
All looks well, but....

Peering in with a torch, there is a small black patch on the nearside base, everything else is matt light grey, so yes, the lining is dodgy.  >:( Its only a small patch but any is enough to FUBAR the new paint.

So, if I use AP it definitely wants doing, Flowliner sounds good to me.

If I could send it to Germany, will Menno reline it after the acid process?, I assume that would strip the old liner OK, if somewhat messily. Photos of his work look excellent, however the thought of packing my tank, panels, ears and headlamp bowl in a box to a good enough standard fills me with dread, but it didn't put off Ash packing and posting me a CB750 crank, something I wouldn't have even known where to begin with.

On balance, delivery to and from Yorkshire in the back of my car still seems a better bet for me.

A question for Graham, when you saw the bike at Crich, you reckoned my tank stripes weren't quite in the right place, can you remember why not? I'd rather have them painted on, but can provide the painer with the vinyl ones and measurements supplied as a guide, I don't want him just replicating what's on there now in a different colour if it isn't right (ive always thought the silver lining a bit iffy anyway, though Hondaman's book says its OK for a 'new factory' late K1). Photos if it helps:





1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
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Offline totty

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2017, 07:06:05 PM »
Bare metal is preferable if possible, I wouldn't reline if I could do a metal repair.

Offline Trigger

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2017, 07:27:15 PM »
Can't remember why I thought the strip looked wrong. I would never trust a liner in a tank, if you are going for a paint job and suspecting a small hole, I would just go for a Yamiya tank set to be on the safe side.

Offline Menno

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2017, 10:43:04 PM »
Lining looks a bit high to me. However in the old days they didn't place them every time at the same place either.

So, shipping is indeed something quite a few people worry about. Especialy Dutch people; they really don't want to send their stuff.
But until now nothing ever really happened while shipping. It helps though that the parcels are insured and that there is a tracking number on it.
Because of that number one can see which person delivered the parcel. That makes quite a lot of difference.

If you are seriously thinking of having your set painted by me I would indeed advise you to have me clean the tank inside out at this company near me.
They put the tank in several baths, one with chemicals heating up till 80 degrees. They litteraly boil the paint off with chemicals.
If the tank needs a new lining afterwards the tank is completely clean inside making a lining close to 100% effective.
Lining it is also very cheep while I don't have to do any prep work to line it. Since it has been cleaned chemicaly anyway.

Matching colours with candy depends on various things. Some colours are easier than other colours. Experience also helps a lot.
At first I bought ready candy paint but the more sets of one colour one paints the more you understand a colour.
I mix most of the candy colours myself now and often matches original paint not to see differences in colour.
I did a candy antares red for a member here on the forum and I was quite surprised the colour was spot on.

And last: on the 750's I do paint the lines as well.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2017, 08:23:39 AM »
Hi Dave  .. Bit of a conflict of interests here but Andrew literally does not have those facilities for cleaning the tank that Menno does and I think personally that would sway me. His process really is that good that my 500K0 tank looked NOS inside. Andy got the positioning of the stripes on my Ruby Red K0 tank from John Wyatt's book ..he got a freebie 'cos he's literally next door and they do work for each other. Lord knows if the positioning is correct .. I will get the tank out and photo it. I have only ever had one tank with liner in it and what I describe here was a schoolboy style 'gung-ho' ... mad moment ..fraught with danger.. mad-scientist method. I put a soft cloth into the tank and pushed it down to the bottom so that it 'wicked' up any excess (stale in my case) fuel. Did this a couple of times to remove as much old fuel as possible. Outside, I then I tipped a full 500g £1 shop tub of caustic soda pellets inside the tank so there was equal amounts in either side. Then, at arms length and with great caution, I poured a kettle of boiling water into the tank and buggered off sharpish. When it had cooled sufficiently I swilled the hot solution around the tank. You can imagine the exotherm that happened and scary, steamy vapours came wooshing  out of the filler neck but afterwards I literally pulled a load of seaweed looking stuff from the tank, this being the remains of the liner. I guess the liner was the old 'Petseal' type material, not a modern epoxy. I don't think a properly formulated epoxy resin sealer would be touched by any modern fuel and no normal solvent or acid or caustic soda. It was take something like T.H.F. to remove it.

Yea that crank I sold you  was a bit of a b*gger to pack but I was only doing what Bryan did for me when he sold me a crank & rods early on, when I was a newbie on here. I think James uses one of those plastic packing crates (likes of Halfords use them I think) for shipping his tanks to Menno and he must have sent quite a few backwards and forward.

Here are the remains of the liner after it dried out :-

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« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 08:29:20 AM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline MrDavo

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Re: Paint - the return of the blurg
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2017, 12:26:06 PM »
'Mad scientist' has never been more appropraite Ash, b*gger that for a game of soldiers. It looks like my body kit will be going for a holiday in Germany then, a Yamiya kit is out of the question unless I win the lottery or sell the wife and cat. That said I've already probably chucked more money at the bike than it's really worth, but isn't that always the way? I refuse to add all the bills up, like when I raced classic bikes, if you knew how much you'd really spent you just wouldn't do it. One day my HM300s will inevitably rot through (well I will go using the bike!), then we'll see how deep my pockets really are. Yamiya currently has a NOS set at £3.5k, plus all the usual taxes etc.

A real geek point here, and not something I'll worry about, but the Yamiya K1 body kits have spot welds visible attaching the headlamp ears to the tubes that cover the fork legs, my bike doesn't have these, have they been filled in before painting? I'm not sad enough to dig the welds out, just interested.

To misquote Jaws, 'we're going to need a bigger box' - I have several large plastic storage boxes, but the biggest is not quite large enough, close but no cigar. Something like this may do it: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Really-Useful-Lightweight-Stackable-W440xD710xH310mm/dp/B000KN6HMW/ref=sr_1_3/262-2435160-8446762?ie=UTF8&qid=1504866417&sr=8-3&keywords=storage+boxes+with+lids+plastic but a bugger if it comes and everything doesn't quite fit. The fact that most are sold by Litres capacity not size doesn't help, I reckon 60x30x25 to get the tank in comfy, how much room is left for the other stuff reamins to be seen. I don't suppose Staples are going to let me turn up with the body kit to try their boxes out, but you never know.

I wonder if either Menno or James can point me at a box, or size of box, that they know works for a K0/K1 body kit?

Menno, can you pm me your address?, it will be a week or two before I am ready to send anything. Is the paint kit I bought from Andy Cepok http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB750-K0-K1-Color-Laque-Paint-Decal-Stripe-Kit-Set-Candy-Ruby-Red-R-4C-/291755643949 any use to you, or should I try and sell it on, if you'd rather mix your own paint? I know you won't want the stripes in any case.

If you don't need the paint I could even go back to torturing myself with the 'red or gold' debate for a couple of weeks! I know the correct answer is to have a bike in each colour....  8)
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

 

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