Author Topic: Zinc content in oil  (Read 7784 times)

Offline AshimotoK0

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Zinc content in oil
« on: June 18, 2017, 12:52:36 PM »
A guy called 'Oldgeezer' on HondaTwins.net posted this comment to a guy who's top end was toast when he took the cam cover off (looks like a CB360/CJ360 engine). I have never heard about zinc content or additives before. Any ideas? I am not well  up on oil technology myself.

Quote from 'Oldgeezer'

"What oil have you been using? It needs 1200ppm zinc to keep cam ware in check. Valvoline VR-1 & Mobil 1 4T has proper amount. Car oil only has 600-800ppm. When you install a new cam, use zinc booster to raise zinc to 1700ppm for 500 miles, then replace the oil with standard 1200ppm".

I found this :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Edelbrock-1074-High-Performance-Zinc-Additive-Engine-Oil-Supplement-/111931607231?hash=item1a0fa4c8bf:g:nc4AAOSwu1VW4Whu

« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 12:58:31 PM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline Green1

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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2017, 02:59:37 PM »
 Isn't that why Brian uses Diesel oil? 
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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2017, 04:49:14 PM »
Spooky connection here Ash as I read your post over on the black bomber thread this morning and thought of this subject and of opening a thread about it.

Usually listed in content as ZDDP, Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate, it has some pretty unique properties and effects, especially for older engines.

It's now being almost totally excluded from modern engine oils as when passed into exhaust stream it will have a destructive effect on catalytic converters and the like.

Basically it floats around in engine oil and just exists without doing much until it comes under extreme mechanical pressure in situations like camshaft lobes. It typically prevents metal spalling and pickup (the destruction of machined surfaces) when the shear capability of the oil is exceeded and can have a hugely important function in preventing wear starting.

I'm a fully paid up, anorak wearing advocate of ZDDP in oils   ;)  as I look after a number of engines that would be considered in need of specific consideration in this regard.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2017, 06:43:51 PM »
Spooky connection here Ash as I read your post over on the black bomber thread this morning and thought of this subject and of opening a thread about it.

Usually listed in content as ZDDP, Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate, it has some pretty unique properties and effects, especially for older engines.

It's now being almost totally excluded from modern engine oils as when passed into exhaust stream it will have a destructive effect on catalytic converters and the like.

Basically it floats around in engine oil and just exists without doing much until it comes under extreme mechanical pressure in situations like camshaft lobes. It typically prevents metal spalling and pickup (the destruction of machined surfaces) when the shear capability of the oil is exceeded and can have a hugely important function in preventing wear starting.

I'm a fully paid up, anorak wearing advocate of ZDDP in oils   ;)  as I look after a number of engines that would be considered in need of specific consideration in this regard.

Wow ... brilliant reply .. I knew somebody on here would be well up on it.

There is a Dutch guy too on HondaTwins called 'Jensen', who lets put it as politely as I can "does not suffer fools gladly" but his tech posts (anoraky if you insist) make wonderful informative reading. He did a whole set of posts on running the Black Bomber K0  engine on fully synthetic oil. Kettle738 on here (Mick) told me that the early bomber oil pump wasn't very high capacity and the last lobe to be fed on the twin cams tended to suffer from pitting etc. (exhaust cam)..... Jensen also identified this and hence his 'trials'.

http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/55-engine-discussion/33075-full-synthetic-oil-fresh-build-cb450-k0-engine-mile-0-a.html
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 07:43:24 AM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2017, 08:33:08 PM »
It'll take me a while to read through that, seems really interesting with him offering a very factual account of what happens rather than speculation.

It's funny that oil has such a small remit, to stop the engine wearing with part of that to keep it cool, but such a massive subject to discuss and achieve that.

As Jensen says though,  it's sometimes difficult to discuss on forum without being deluged by other's assumed information and just plain preferences not backed up by scientific data of any real standing. I can see his point in taking his time to write intelligently about it and having non qualified criticism dispensed would make you not want to bother. Looks like he's making a valuable contribution.

I don't mind posting what I've worked through and hope we may be left alone over in anorak's corner to go through various areas of the subject if you're up for it.  :)

I believe that the best solution to protect any engine should be up for discussion with nothing taken off the table for spurious reasons.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2017, 10:15:56 PM »
Fire away ! This section was created by Steve to allow this type of discussion. I won't be much use here though as I know very little about oil technology but agree it's the lifeblood of the engine and warrants an in depth discussion. I am pretty sure Bryan will have an input too.
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2017, 11:02:55 PM »
I've got to page 7 of Jensen's posting, some very interesting additions coming in there.

Both you and Mike in an early post reference Bryan's view on oil for these old bikes,  I think he's right on the ball for getting that spec to people asking the, what oil should I be using question. For people wanting a straight up recommendation it couldn't be more simple,  and those oils mostly would have a zinc component as they have no attachment to current engines which effectively have their oil components legislated via emissions regs etc.

I think here we should look at if anything better is available and if so,  why. Hopefully it may even get some more insightful contributions to debate.

I'll get off and read the rest of the Jensen case study to see where he got.

Offline Bryanj

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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2017, 01:04:50 AM »
I used Silkolene Transfleet 10w40 commercial diesel oil because it had the same specs on the tin as Honda wrote in the handbooks for all the sohc motors, also the transport firm i worked for used it in there trucks so it was free---the modern ones use fully synthetic long drain(200,000 Km) oil which is no good for the bikes but works fine in the L200 and Peugeot 406HDI

Silcolene is now Fuchs and i have never had a decent reply as to what is the equivalent of the Transfleet but not bothered as i have about 40 gallons stashed---should see me out
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 01:10:12 AM by Bryanj »

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2017, 09:59:38 AM »
I've got to page 7 of Jensen's posting, some very interesting additions coming in there.

Both you and Mike in an early post reference Bryan's view on oil for these old bikes,  I think he's right on the ball for getting that spec to people asking the, what oil should I be using question. For people wanting a straight up recommendation it couldn't be more simple,  and those oils mostly would have a zinc component as they have no attachment to current engines which effectively have their oil components legislated via emissions regs etc.

I think here we should look at if anything better is available and if so,  why. Hopefully it may even get some more insightful contributions to debate.

I'll get off and read the rest of the Jensen case study to see where he got.

All hats off to Steve for creating this section because on other sites, this techy info gets buried or  lost and hard to locate. There is a wealth of info on the USA site and also HondaTwins.net but it's sometimes extremely difficult to locate. BTW 'Jensen' is also on Honda305.com but has had to switch to 'Jensey' because his original identity got lost somewhere down the line.

Lets all work to make this section and the Dropbox links for documentation an easily accessible 'go-to'  for tech stuff on our bikes
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2017, 06:51:32 PM »
I've finished reading Jensen's post to date, it may be worth discussing that in a separate thread to avoid some of the very interesting stuff getting lost in just straight oil subject.

To talk more about ZDDP and how it relates to other additives, http://www.experimentalaircraft.info/articles/engine-lubrication-6.php given a front end overview of the different properties we can consider.

Basically,  as I see it, the zinc interaction is really the last line of defense for our metal components in situations of the oil film breaking down. Know as anti wear,  and trying to prevent damaged in very extreme circumstances.

Friction Modifiers, principally Molybdenum disulphide, work in the area of duress prior to reaching "extreme " and it is this component I feel is undesirable for our wet clutches. It appears to be accumulative,  so could build up in clutch materials and promote friction release, which we don't want.
Commonly listed as Molly, Mollyslip, Modtc etc in oil listing.


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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2017, 07:14:39 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_pressure_additive

There's a crossover into EP gear oils that touches / borders the discussion of inclusion of ZDDP in engine oils, not necessarily applicable to our engines but it shows a little more of the scope and interaction with some of the compounds used and helps to form a picture of what's going on.

Offline totty

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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2017, 07:51:11 PM »
I had mate who's brother was an oil blender, both were big fans of Molly. They talked me into ignoring the warnings and trying a Molly additive in an automatic gearbox and a couple of bikes with wet clutches. I really couldn't do their arguments for it justice, but I recall that it mostly related to how it bonded to materials (including that it wouldn't bond to itself unlike ptfe) and that it would help avoid getting to the extreme situations were zddp helps. Added over a few years every oil change it didn't cause any clutch slip.

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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2017, 08:21:32 PM »
It seems to be very good at friction reduction but I've always kept away from use with wet clutches.

You don't have any contact with the original persuaders do you?  that may add to our thread.

I've seen it put into manual car gearboxes and all but prevent the synchro rings working as it changed the friction they impart so much that it puts the gears at risk as the synchro function just didn't spin up the opposing gear sets to match their speed. It's probably these things that have formed my view as to how slippery it is.

I've read alot from this source https://bobistheoilguy.com/whats-in-your-motor-oil/ and there's is so much material out there relating to this stuff.

Another key that gets into all sort of ZDDP analysis is to search for it with "flat tappet cams" you'll be deluged with camshaft specific experiences surrounding it's use,  effects and levels of desirable content.

Offline totty

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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2017, 09:14:17 PM »
No, sadly he died a few years ago, but he would have been all over this, he loved a good oil thread.

The tickover rose on one car when I added Molly, definitely slippery stuff.


Offline Green1

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Re: Zinc content in oil
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2017, 10:02:26 PM »
I wish I could understand what was going on my brain keeps turning to mush.  :-[
The way I understand it ZDDP is a last resort in the oils defences so if its changed often enough it should never be needed.
I think the most important thing is to use the right grade and change often.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time.
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