Author Topic: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration  (Read 31501 times)

Offline Allington (Steve)

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #240 on: February 12, 2019, 11:55:49 AM »
Many thanks for your kind comments.

Dave : looking spot on you should be proud...what's your next one going to be?  ;D ;D

If all goes to plan and the 911, currently at a specialist dealer, gets sold  - big if, as due to #@%$ uncertainty I think, nearly all the classic cars for sale in November I've been watching are still up for sale - and if I can make a deal at the right price with the current owner, it will be this, a 1950's Alfa Giulietta Sprint. Worth a lot when done, it depends on what's missing or needs doing, the current owner is no mug and will have a good idea what it's worth, but it's going nowhere until I'm ready, I've been told. However that'll be a thread for another board if it happens. The CB750 K1 may have to go too if I need the garage space and cash.



Here's an immaculate finished restoration for sale, note the eye watering price!

https://www.southwood.co.uk/showroom/67/Alfa-Romeo-Giulietta-Sprint-Series-1.html

I'd follow a thread on a 1967 Bomber rebuild Roy, as Ash says, many differences, sorry I can't help with a wiring diagram.

I had the CL450 running again this morning and once warmed up I got a nice strong tickover, but them as I stood back and watched the revs shot up for no good reason and I had to switch off! Not sure what that's all about, but fuel was dripping from the left hand carb. There seems to be a fine line with the float level between no fuel in the bowl and too much, I need to investigate.

Not sure if it's #@%$ or just a natural correction but some parts of the classic car market are very soft at the moment.
"A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing..."

FS1E - RD200 - CB500 - Norton Commando - Z900

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #241 on: February 13, 2019, 12:24:49 PM »
Certainly nothing much is moving at the moment, a friend of mine is looking at E-types as they've noticeably dropped, that could well be because sellers were over optimistic in their expectations, as you say market correction.

Anyway, woo hoo! The post had a buff envelope from Swansea, I now have an age related 'H' registration, and can get on with ordering a black and silver numberplate.  :D :D :D Once that comes its a call to the insurance company and 'head out on the highway' time, now I have got my motor running.

Along with fitting a nice new pair of pattern mirrors which arrived from Thailand, It's just about finished, though I still have to play with the flooding carb, if playing with the float level continues to be elusive I may try different combinations of needle and seat, I currently have the original needle and an aftermarket  carb kit seat, with a new float. A real ball ache but I'm sure I'll sort it eventually. At the moment I can get no fuel in the bowl, or dripping out of the overflow. Looking at the Honda Twins forum it seems I'm not alone. Somewhere in between must be a happy medium.


1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #242 on: February 18, 2019, 06:40:03 PM »
Up and running, but still waiting for a number plate to be made.

She wouldn't fire at all yesterday, I realised I'd flooded her and took the plugs out to dry, today I found still no joy, the offside plug wasn't sparking at all. A switch to the original plug she came with sorted that out, so BOTH new NGK's have failed, I got them cheap as chips off eBay and wonder if they might be fakes? She is now back on the original plugs that she came with! It reminds me of a lad I used to know with an RD250, his pockets were always full of spark plugs as he kept fouling them. Can anyone point me at a reliable source of NGK spark plugs?, I don't mind paying a little more for the guaranteed real thing.

Anyway I got it running, and took her out for a first ride, down a local ancient dirt road that has had no maintenance since the middle ages, but noone has told satnavs yet. You occasionally meet the odd stuck wagon with a very flustered driver.



The bike went OK, a bit of a handful on the really rough stuff, and the carburation isn't quite there yet. I may get the carbs off again (a real ball ache as you have to take the tank, side panels and air filters off first) and use the carboard float lever tool (I have a drawing in my Clymer manual) to get the float levels better than my trial and error setting, . At one point she cut out completely and I coasted to a halt, it turned out that the low tech bent piece of metal that rubs on the choke lever needs tweeking, as the choke had vibrated to fully on, killing the engine.

When I got back, with the bike up to temperature I got the screwdriver out and adjusted the tickover again, I was quite pleased with the result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syREwh8kUys
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline Woodside

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #243 on: February 18, 2019, 07:20:14 PM »
My 450 would wet the plugs for fun..
I found when starting do not even touch the throttle not even a bit...let it catch on the choke then roll the throttle on...never failed...
When I sold the bike the guy called in a bad mood saying it wouldn't start....yup he had wetted the plugs..New plugs and he was away...

On a foot  note I've found that when the new  ngk plugs have been flooded they are toast and never the same again..

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #244 on: February 18, 2019, 07:58:46 PM »
Thanks, after reading your post I’ve ordered 4 new ones, I can keep a spare inside the plug spanner in the toolkit, also I’ll remember to keep away from the twistgrip when I start up, I didn’t know that and have been giving her a touch of throttle when I try and start up.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #245 on: March 02, 2019, 07:23:10 PM »
Hmm, having a couple of teething problems but I have put 8 miles on the trip meter.

First the indicators work fine in the garage but barely at all on the road. Either there’s a loose connection somewhere or the generic relay isn’t happy about something.

Secondly and more importantly I’m dammned if I can get a reliable tickover. I end up revving her like a race bike (mine never had tickovers, deliberately) at the lights. I have had her ticking over, see the YouTube video above, but on the road she died when the revs dropped. Today I set the float levels properly as per the book, so I can rule fuel levels out, but I buggered up the carb syncing- I had them working fine together but after I put the tank back on I realised  I’d pulled the cable ends out of the junction box. I may have to do the whole palaver of taking the side panels and air boxes off again just to correct things. I’ve tried adjusting the cables so they are both taking up the slack at the same time but it’s not right. The right carb is very sensitive to the throttle screw while the other isn’t, something wrong there.

In the end I gave up as everything had got very hot, so I was worried I’d do some damage or not get it right anyway. I’m sure I’ll get there in the end, but it was easier to get her running than getting a reliable tickover.

The dry break I put in the balance pipe between the two halves of the tank has made life so much easier, if I was still having to drain the tank every time I took it off I’d be tearing my hair out by now.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #246 on: March 05, 2019, 01:28:41 AM »
It’s still not right, I resynched the carbs, checked the float levels, put some sealant on the inlet stubs and put it all together only to find it still wants to die or surge, rather than tick over.

Knowing now that it’s not flooding, when the revs suddenly skyrocket I think I must have an air leak, I suspect the inlet stubs. Rock hard with age when I got the bike, Ashley kindly softened them with magic chemistry, but I’ve bitten the bullet and ordered a new pair from Silvers, very uncheap. The Cb750 had a leak on one cylinder when I got it, that was turning the header yellow, despite nothing appearing wrong other than hardened rubbers, new inlet stubs cured the problem completely.

The only way I’m going to get to the bottom of this bad slow running is to be methodical and eliminate all the possible causes. It will all be worth it in the end though.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline royhall

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #247 on: March 05, 2019, 07:48:35 AM »
First thing I look for these days is new inlet rubbers, had  the same issue too many  times.

Don't know if he has any left, but Ash was selling genuine jet kits and needles for the 450.

Have you checked the floats themselves as the soldered joints can go bad on these. A tiny amount of petrol inside the float will mess it up. Cruzinimage sell good quality reproductions.

I'm sure you will have checked all the above as you have done a top job with the rest of the bike. Good luck with finding the problem, there's nothing quite as frustrating as carbs. I'm fairly sure the new inlet rubbers will do the trick.

I send mine to Matt Harper to be done these days, and never had a problem since. Matt Harper - New inlet rubbers - Job done.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 08:14:57 AM by royhall »
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Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #248 on: March 05, 2019, 10:23:46 AM »
All the jets are new, plus the float needles, seats and pilot screws. I had to use after market ones as the real thing was nowhere to be found.

The floats are new and genuine - one original was bent, the other fell apart, to my horror, when I used heat to unstick the float spindle - the solder melted instantly!

I couldn’t get the screws out that hold the needles in the slides, so they are still original, I hope they are in the original ( or at least the same) groove, but that’s farther up the rev range to be affecting my low rev problems.

I await my inlet rubbers, hopefully this will be the last time I have to take the carbs and air cleaners off for now.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #249 on: March 06, 2019, 03:45:32 PM »
The new inlet stubs have come, and I'll replace them as soon as I make the time, however if that doesn't solve my problems, reading on the twins forum makes me wonder about air leaks at the felt seals on the throttle valve shafts, which I haven't been anywhere near.

They aren't listed in my parts book, they included in the whole carb body part number, but I've found them on eBay, complete with a video on how to change them.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB450-and-CB500-Twin-Improved-Carburetor-Throttle-Shaft-Felt-Seals/261900707837

It's stuff like this that probably got many of these bikes banished to the back of the barn in the first place, but I'm a stubborn so and so, and won't give up anytime soon. We'll see what the new stubs do, they don't feel a lot softer than Ashley got my originals to be, but at least I can eliminate them and still have a plan if that doesn't work, other than to go and pour myself a large drink.

Does anyone here have any experience of these seals causing an air leak?
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline K2-K6

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #250 on: March 06, 2019, 04:12:44 PM »
Assuming all else is up to scratch,  it's almost without exception that it's air leaking in (effectively unmeterred)  that gives uncontrolled tickover.

Think you're on the right track by eliminating the most likely culprit first.

The felt seals, can you soak them in engine oil while you are fitting the setup? It's usually enough to get a temporary stay of execution to assess it. Although done at the same time as the inlet tracts wouldn't give you defined cause to be satisfied with.

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #251 on: March 10, 2019, 07:41:15 PM »
I fitted the new stubs this weekend, then found she wouldn’t start at all! Checking the plugs showed no spark at all on the left, using my multimeter I eventually traced that to the feed wire from the coil being slightly broken near a connector causing an iffy ‘on / off’ state as I bent the wire back and forth.

That meant a trip out to Halfords to buy a new soldering iron as my old one had become worse than useless. That fixed, and insulated with a bit of heat shrink I was back to sparks on both sides, I reckon I was lucky to catch the problem at home in the garage rather than breaking down miles from anywhere in the dark.

Trying again she started fine, the tickover isn’t perfect yet but much more reliable, I need to go for a ride when the weather improves and take s screwdriver to fettle the carb settings at normal working temperature.

The rev counter fogs up, I had trouble with the CB750 breathing up the cable until I replaced the oil seal in the cam cover. There is an oil seal in the tachometer drive that I will replace, I’m a bit reluctant to order one on its own and suffer the carriage fee for just that, I may wait until I need something else. If that doesn’t work I may need a new cable, mine is the original that came with the bike.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline hairygit

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #252 on: March 10, 2019, 08:02:27 PM »
I have found that quite a few Honda oil seals are still available new from Honda, worth getting the part number from CMS and phoning your local Honda dealer, the number nay have been superseded or its listed for another bike, but if it's still available it will save the postage cost.

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Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #253 on: March 27, 2019, 01:21:32 PM »
Thanks I ended up biting the bullet and ordering the tacho cable seal from DS, a couple of weeks delivery as they got it in from the US. The old one was a bugger to get out as there's a metal ring inside the seal,  I tapped the new one in with a 10mm socket, the same as I did with the CB750, and  job done, no more weather system in the tacho when you start up.

I wanted to take her out for a ride on Sunday, but she was barely running on one pot, much to my disappointment, however many times I fiddled around and swapped plugs etc. She had run better on first start up, however I got a clue from he right hand plug being very sooty.

Last night I had an hour and decided to pull the right carb to check it over, looking for a plastic tray to put the parts in, I noticed that one contained a little brass plug, the one that goes underneath the pilot jet, with a hole to let the fuel in from the main jet gallery. Hang on! I thought, I never had a spare one of those....  :o I whipped the float bowl off and sure enough the plug was missing - problem solved easier than I thought!

Out for another go at a ride today it still ran rough but at least on 2, so I doubled back - going up our hill it must have cleared the fouled plug, and suddenly joy!  :D It fair whizzes along, making a glorious row that would be quite legal in 1969, competing with BSAs and Triumphs etc (same applies to CB750 exhausts). I haven't revved her past 7k yet, but the redline is 9.5k or so. As James said, loads of fun. :) When I came back I was astonished to still have a reliable tickover too, unlike my first ride where it died at every traffic light. I don't know for sure if its charging yet, but the lights were still bright after a ride, however I don't see them get brighter when I rev the bike (my usual way of checking). How do I check it with a meter?

Snagging work needed, now I have put 30 miles on the clock:

I have to treat the brakes with respect, being used to discs, but the rear pedal fouls the case, I think I need to find and fit a big washer or spacer to move it outboard. Also. the speedo drive turns itself clockwise as far as the cable lets it - what should locate it? - do I need to nip up the nut on the axle a bit, or is it something to do with the crosshead screw on the drive? Although low mileage, the speedo needle floats around a bit, possibly the damping oil has escaped over the years. Next winter I may be sending it Peter's way if that's the case. Of course the tacho, which he has already had a go at, is perfect.

The indicators are strictly optional in use, they may or may not work, although they seem fine in the garage - I will investigate the switch. It is possible I'll get a NOS switch to properly match the lower half I got from Ashley, they do exist but ain't cheap, but I'll try and fix what I've got first. Also I'd need to take the bars off to do the faff with threading the wires through the holes again.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline Bryanj

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Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
« Reply #254 on: March 27, 2019, 01:46:32 PM »
Put voltmeter on battery terminals to see voltage static, running with lights off and running with lights on if charging second two dhould be higher than first and preferably about14 volt as to speedo drive it shoulhave a lug on the fork to stop it turning too far but tightening axle nut should also stop it turning.

 

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