Author Topic: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration  (Read 31521 times)

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2018, 12:46:31 PM »
I was hoping to get on with the engine today, but no joy as I straight away had another knockpin knockback!

Firstly, this is where I'm hamstrung by the parts books available online being for the K0 or K2, and mine is a K1, according to the engine and VIN numbers - the K0 crank is quite different, as we've already learned. Despite parts books for the K2 listing 3 knockpins, and a different stepped one (which is what I bought from CMS), there are in fact holes for 4 10x8 pins - Grr! I mentioned before the originals went AWOL, possibly accidentaly chucked but who knows - anyway we are where we are. So I need another one.

If I had it I would still be stymied, as the rotor side outer cage is on the wrong way round! If I put the knockpin in, the oil feed wouldn't be anywhere near the corresponding hole in the case, see the photo. At least I have the sense to realise this, but it does p*ss me off. I should send the crank back for the builder to put right, but the packing, post delay and what have you mean I can't be arsed. I havent got a rotor puller, but I was going to buy one anyway, just a bit sooner than anticipated.



I decided to build the head up, and ran into a mystery regarding valve stem seals. There weren't any when I stripped it down, K2 parts lists show them, and they aren't in my gasket set. They are also £10 a pop from DS. WTF?

I just looked at the K0 CB450 parts list that Ashley put up and don't see them.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jj3kxdzg2k8rklb/Honda%20CB450%20K0%20Parts%20List%20Manual.pdf?dl=0

I'm assuming that CL and CB 450 went through the same K0 -K1 - K2 progression at the same time, but I don't know for sure, I'm assuming they did it by the model season, as the CB750 seems to (again I don't know this for a fact, the board members who worked for Honda dealerships may know different).

Page 27 of the Honda manual shows the valve guide seals, but it is a 'catch all' manual covering all models.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/stqw7jm89xtt1rz/CB450%20Factory%20Service%20Manual%20.pdf?dl=0

CMS have them IN their parts list for both the K0 and K2.  :o

Maybe my bike was put back together without (remember the only sign that someones ever been in before me was the misplaced cam roller knockpin), I wonder if it then smoked like something out of a Cheech and Chong sketch?



I do need these seals in a K1 yes or no?

EDIT: Found an online CB450 K1 parts list. Assuming they are the same engine, other than gearing, I need to compare it with what I've got - page 9 part 16.

https://mafiadoc.com/queue/cb450-k1-parts-manual_59d80c8a1723ddac700463eb.html

Iffy hosting, the green buttons lead to spam, but it is a free download.

So today I will be mostly wet and drying and polishing the alloy bits instead. It needs doing and rewards the effort put in.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 04:49:26 PM by MrDavo »
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2018, 02:52:26 PM »
Looking at that K1 download Dave there are no seals ...Looking in the Haynes manual they describe a 2 piece stem seal but I guess their bike they used as a stripdown  is a later than K1 model as it begins with a 3. So I would summarize that your bike never had them. There were none on the '69 CB250/350's either. If the clearance between your valves and guides is good you should be fine IMHO and I don't suppose your finished bike is going to do loads of miles. Trig or Bryan may know better though. Mick Taylor (kettle738) has  owned  & rebuilt K0 & K1's so I will ask him if you like.

Bummer on the crank not being done properly.. I think with my bomber crank I will just try to flush it out thoroughly with solvent without disassembly ..I will probably be shot down in flames for doing this but there ya go.

EDIT: Just checked '3' prefix is K2 so Haynes bike was a K2 and  so it looks like K2 had stem seals.

I have used a Fiat van wheel bolt as a rotor puller. Now I use an old CB250K rear wheel axle with a 'T'  bar welded to it. Seems to work OK.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 03:09:56 PM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline Seabeowner

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2018, 03:18:53 PM »
Great in depth restoration Dave.
If it's a K1 what's up with CMS for lists? Maybe you have as I haven't read the whole thread in detail.
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb450k1-1968-usa_model449/partslist/
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb450k1-1968-usa_model449/partslist/E++10.html#results
Not always to be trusted 100%, but pretty good.
Phil
1971  CB500K0  Candy Jade Green or Candy Gold
1973  CB500K1  Candy Ruby Red
1975  CB550F1   Shiny Orange
1978  CB550K     Excel Black

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2018, 03:47:22 PM »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2018, 07:59:11 PM »
I hadn't thought of looking for the CB450 K1 on CMS, as the CL parts lists go straight from K0 to K2. There you go, no seal on the CB K1 version, as I said the same engine, different cycle parts and gearing. That guy on the twins forum probably has a 1969 K2, which is quite different in some repects, the later tank seat etc, that does have a seal. I don't know when the change was, it must have been very late in the year as my K1 was made in November 1969, but the CMS parts list is specifically for the 1969 K2 CL450. All very confusing.

Anyway there was no seal, all the K1 listings I've seen show no seal, that's £40 saved.

Today I was mostly polishing:



The rear cam cover is an original looking silver paint finish, oddly, maybe it was easier to keep clean that way. I noticed the oil seal for the points drive shaft - I haven't already got a new one, so at least I won't be just ordering a knock pin from Silvers, it seemed a waste of the postage charge for something so tiny.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 04:50:22 PM by MrDavo »
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline hairygit

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2018, 08:07:00 PM »
I hadn't thought of looking for the CB450 K1 on CMS, as the CL parts lists go straight from K0 to K2. There you go, no seal on the CB K1 version, as I said the same engine, different cycle parts and gearing. That guy on the twins forum probably has a 1969 K2, which is quite different in some repects, the later tank seat etc, that does have a seal. I don't know when the change was, it must have been very late in the year as my K1 was made in November 1969, but the CMS parts list is specifically for the 1969 K2 CL450. All very confusing.

Anyway there was no seal, all the K1 listings I've seen show no seal, that's £40 saved.

Today I was mostly polishing:



The rear cam cover is an original looking silver paint finish, oddly, maybe it was easier to keep clean that way. I noticed the oil seal for the points drive shaft - I haven't already got a new one, so at least I won't be just ordering a knock pin from Silvers, it seemed a waste of the postage charge for something so tiny.
Before ordering the knock pin and oil seal from Silvers, check the part numbers on motogrid, that apparently shows all the bikes they were/are fitted to, always a possibility that a more modern bike uses them as well, then you may be able to get it from your local Honda dealer and save on postage!

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Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2018, 11:31:25 PM »
Sure enough when I checked the CB450 K1 parts list, it was the one and only place where there are 4 10x8 knock pins, so definitely the same motor, no other parts list has this, ie not K0, K2 onwards or CB500T. It would have saved me no end of grief if I’d cottoned on to this earlier.

I did an online search last night for the knock pin part number 94302 - 06100 (the second part being 6 x 10 mm), 94301 was available cheap on eBay, but it’s used in a couple of cylinder heads, and could be hollow for all I know. As usual for Honda bits, loads in the USA, all plus an arm and a leg postage of course.

Edit: Futtocks. Just spotted, in the K1 list I linked to, part number 14791-292-000 valve stem oil seal. Superseded by 14791-319-005. £11.94 each. Better to find out now. I will have a look tomorrow to see what’s there on my head, when I removed one of the little fork shaped guide retainers, it was a sod to get the bolt back in, so I didn’t disturb the others. I really don’t recall a seal, but I may have just thought it was a fancy washer. Even if they were perfect though, with my recent experience of anything vaguely rubber and how a few decades turns it like iron, I’m having new ones.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 11:48:51 PM by MrDavo »
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline JamesH

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Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2018, 11:50:49 PM »
Already in my basket James, just waiting for me to figure out what else I’m ordering.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline Bryanj

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2018, 04:31:48 AM »
Motogrid doesn't work any more think they may have gone out of business, did find another cross reference list but lost the link.

Try this link for x ref but only list bikes back to 77

https://www.dealercostparts.com/oemparts/c/honda/parts
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 04:43:27 AM by Bryanj »

Offline AshimotoK0

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« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 07:26:02 AM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2018, 05:20:19 PM »
Looks like Honda use those knock pins on all sorts, including jet skis!

I ordered what I need from DS in the end, though they had to split my order as I also need a points shaft oil seal, and they buy those in from Honda, but I don't want to wait for the knockpin.

As I was curious I went to look at my cylinder head at lunchtime, what I thought was a special flat washer to retain the valve guide is in fact the mystery oil seal, it just doesn't look like I expected, ie like a CB750 one / every other valve guide oil seal I've ever seen, well they did say the CB450 was unconventional ;) I ordered them too, £ bloody expensive.

Anyhoo, once I have the knock pin and the rotor puller (dispatched today by the eBay seller) I should be good to get on with assembling the bottom end at last. I got a good used 500T oil pump on Ashley's recommendation from the USA, I'm assuming it will fit straight on.

Basically I want to finish the motor first, so I can store it out of the way, dismantle the (reinforced to take the CB750 engine after it broke :) ) workmate it's on, and use the same bit of garage space to restore the chassis. Only then can I get my Sportster back out of storage (normally it lives where the CL450 rolling chassis is now), if my CB750 stuff isn't back from Menno once spring is sprung I'll need a bike on the road.

What a tangled web we weave.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2018, 10:32:51 AM »
It was freezing in the garage last night, I have a little electric heater, which is OK as long as you aren't continually handling things made of very cold metal... However the wife was watching soaps, and that means garage time!

The first job was to get the rotor and starter clutch off with my new puller, which worked fine. As an aside, the puller came from Roger Etcell at Honda Classics in Towcester, so I was a bit confused to find a David Silver Collection brochure (I have a few of these, you may have too) in the envelope, are they related in some way?

 Next job was to get the main bearing outer race off without spraying rollers everywhere. I put plastic sheeting under the cases to catch them in case that happened, but hit on the idea of using a zip tie to keep the rollers in their cage, see below.



Note the circlip pliers, I only have about three things made by Snap On, pilfered from work in a previous life, but they are the business. Before I had them, circlips meant time for some godawful butchery involving long nosed pliers and screwdrivers.

Race reversed and in the right place with the oil hole lining up now and the new knockpin installed, starter clutch and rotor back on and torqued up. Time to put the bearing holder in place, oh wait I nearly forgot the camchain. Then I found a snag, the new DID chain from DS was continous, with no soft link. Time to dig out the stupidly cheap camchain splitter / riveter I got from eBay, good job I ordered it well in advance of needing it. Post free though, from China, so why is everything from the US so $$$ to send, even the tinyest item?  :o

It came with a full set of instructions. In Chinese, no pictures.  >:( Anyway, I worked it out for myself, but I was very wary of buggering up the links either side of the one I took out. It seeemed to go OK, with a bit of trial and error.



Finally, I draped the cut chain over the sprocket, put the bearing carrier over it and torqued up the bolts. Job done, ready to put the cases back together, but next time, it was time to go in and get my hands warm.




« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 04:52:04 PM by MrDavo »
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline JamesH

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2018, 12:13:41 PM »
Bravo Dave, great work as always - tell you what, it would have been so easy to miss the fact the cage was on the wrong way round & pay the heavy price for no oil feed.

What did the crank builders say when you told them you'd 'caught' their mistake?

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2018, 12:35:17 PM »
Yes  great work Dave ... I may get one of those cam chain tools if they are any good. I don't think I will get my crank stripped though..I will probably adopt the 'Jensen' method of flushing.

Roger is ex-Honda UK and set up DS Museum & is also a valuer for Bonhams. He's a nice bloke ...met him at Stafford and the museum.

I wonder if he got permission from Honda  to copy and sell  their manuals due to his previous employment with them ?
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

 

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