Author Topic: 1969 CL450 Restoration  (Read 1780 times)

Offline AshimotoK0

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 4473
  • Mad Scientist.... more power Igor ! ٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #75 on: February 08, 2018, 12:35:17 PM »
Yes  great work Dave ... I may get one of those cam chain tools if they are any good. I don't think I will get my crank stripped though..I will probably adopt the 'Jensen' method of flushing.

Roger is ex-Honda UK and set up DS Museum & is also a valuer for Bonhams. He's a nice bloke ...met him at Stafford and the museum.

I wonder if he got permission from Honda  to copy and sell  their manuals due to his previous employment with them ?
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline MrDavo

  • SOHC Pro
  • Posts: 581
  • He who dies with the most toys wins
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #76 on: February 08, 2018, 05:53:12 PM »
I recommend the camchain tool, it did what it was supposed to and didn't break. Slow delivery, but free.

Thanks for your comments.

Edit: Long rant about CMS blaming me because their parts list is broken deleted. This is a rebuild thread, not therapy. If you have nothing good to say, say nothing.

I haven't taken up the bearing cockup with the crank builder, it was much easier to sort it out than send it back, but I wasn't impressed.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 07:52:52 PM by MrDavo »
1971 Honda CB750 K1 'General Export Type'
1969 Honda CL450 'Dual Sport'
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport

Offline MrDavo

  • SOHC Pro
  • Posts: 581
  • He who dies with the most toys wins
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2018, 09:14:14 PM »
A busy weekend in the garage, I went from putting the cases together to bottom end finished, pistons on rods, ready for the barrels to go on. There I ran out of steam, I think I'm going to buy some proper ring compressors, as I was struggling with the B&Q hose clips that were fine for doing the 750.


Ready to go, Harley bond on the far case.



Bolted up and on with the the Trigger engine stand. Built for the 750, do all engines have the same bolt spacing to make it easier at the factory / dealers?



On with the gearchange machanism. The splines for the lever on the gear shaft aren't great (they slip when you fall off, cutting a nice arc in the rotor cover, there are loads like that) I'll keep an eye out at autojumbles. To my surprise I had all 5 gears first go. I've fecked around with Brit gearboxes for hours, and still only had one and a half gears (faulty Haynes manuals don't help). This is neutral, each red mark on the drum is a gear. Those stopper wheels wear loose on their spindles, causing poor selection, but these are perfect. Just as well because they seem to be made of unobtanium.



Close of play Saturday, starter, final drive sprocket and alternator on.



Oil pumps, 1969 original on right, 500T (more pressure) on left.



Clutch outer, primary sprocket and oil pump all go on together. The clutch basket gives you an idea of the 'as new' condition of everything, witness marks but no notches at all, the plates were the same. For a two grand barn find I think I've been bloody lucky.



Clutch and oil filter back on. CB750 clutch tool fits the filter tube nut.



That side finished pretty much. I haven't fastened the cover up yet because I realised I hadn't bought a new kickstart seal, and now is the time to change it. Hot chocolate (in a Yorkie mug!) sent in by the wife to stop me from freezing.



Pistons are on, but I gave up after a struggle with the barrels and rings. Not used to 180 degree twins is my excuse, even the CB750 you do the pistons in pairs.








1971 Honda CB750 K1 'General Export Type'
1969 Honda CL450 'Dual Sport'
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport

Offline MrDavo

  • SOHC Pro
  • Posts: 581
  • He who dies with the most toys wins
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2018, 10:12:25 PM »
I got some proper ring compressors off eBay, and though they were a hassle due to one piston going down as I pushed on the barrels, and a right pain to get off, the studs being in the way, the barrels are on!




I noticed on Sunday that the gear lever couldn't possibly have cut that arc into the stator cover. That's becuase its the wrong $%*! lever! The CL lever is an S shape, going around the stator. The bike has been thrown at the scenery at some stage, maybe it was to buggered to leave on, and swapped for something straighter. Anyway I ordered a new one, more sheckles for Mr Silver.

Its time to get my head together (man) next, as I'd got it down off the shelf and unwrapped it, I couldn't resist having a trial fit with the bare head to see what it would look like.



Finally I was checking out the cams to see if the damping rings were OK. They were but I was shocked to see this damage to the exhaust cam chain wheel:



It looks to me like the chain has been off and jammed up at some time, which would explain why someone has been in the engine at some time, evidenced only by the knockpin in the sump. Bubba's blunt phillips screwdriver had managed to chew up one of the exhaust cam holder screws behind the points,  and also the screw holding the bearing for the top chainwheel for some reason.  I wonder if he'd taken out the whole exhaust cam bearing, then for raesons we will never know tried to turn it over with the cam now on the p*ss, jamming up the chain as it came off the sprocket. It may even explain why it was then parked up without turning over (remember the rusty valve seat) for a few decades, it would have been locked solid, maybe someone finally fixed it up again before the bike went up for sale.

I doubt that the engine was running when the cam chain came off, as there would have been collateral damage to the valves, pistons and head, unless they were replaced.

Its an old break, I don't really see how it would hinder the running of the camchain as it runs on the damping ring, not the metal. Does anyone think different? I don't want to buy another cam, but now would be the time.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 10:37:28 PM by MrDavo »
1971 Honda CB750 K1 'General Export Type'
1969 Honda CL450 'Dual Sport'
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport

Offline AshimotoK0

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 4473
  • Mad Scientist.... more power Igor ! ٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2018, 08:03:19 AM »
Difficult one Dave and the exhaust cam is always the hard one to get as one of the lobes is more prone to pitting than the others. I would be concerned that the rubber might not be fully guided with that piece missing  but maybe I am just being devils advocate and there are engine guys on here more qualified to comment than me, so hopefully they will comment. You could try PM'ing Jensen. A common prob with CB250/350K cams is that the sprocket mounting lug breaks near the threaded hole and I have seen them welded or brazed up with some sucess. I wonder if that's an option? It would certainly give me peace of mind if it was my engine.
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline MrDavo

  • SOHC Pro
  • Posts: 581
  • He who dies with the most toys wins
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2018, 08:36:42 AM »
Bugger. There’s a K6 one on eBay that looks decent, but they changed the part number during K5 to end in 013 from 003. I wonder what changed?

I pm’d Jensen, so he should see this. You are right, I’d probably worry about the damper ring breaking up.
1971 Honda CB750 K1 'General Export Type'
1969 Honda CL450 'Dual Sport'
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport

Offline K2-K6

  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 1624
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2018, 08:42:49 AM »
It appears to have witness marks on the next smaller diameter section of the cam suggesting impact. Is there any reason to thump it at all? Or could the PO have got it stuck in getting it in / out?

It's not the sort of material that lends itself to impact,  obviously, but that looks more likely than other means.

It's difficult to see without the item in your hands to judge it,  but from the photo it appears that it would be ok in service as so much of the flange remains to do the job it's designed for. Looks a bit drastic but low effect.

Offline MrDavo

  • SOHC Pro
  • Posts: 581
  • He who dies with the most toys wins
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2018, 08:53:33 AM »
I think it happened while trying to get it apart, there definitely are witness marks around the centre.

I just checked and found a post on the twins forum comparing the K6 cam with earlier ones, the profile and tacho drive are different, which is why I found one easily 🙁

1971 Honda CB750 K1 'General Export Type'
1969 Honda CL450 'Dual Sport'
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport

Offline hairygit

  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 2021
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2018, 08:58:12 AM »
Could have been the legendary mechaninc Bubba, maybe he tried to remove the cam without splitting the chain. (Seen it done on a CB175 years ago, what a mess!)

Sent from my X6pro using Tapatalk

If it's got tits or wheels, it's hassle, if it's got both, RUN!!!

Offline K2-K6

  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 1624
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2018, 09:21:11 AM »
My train of thought is that all thing's being equal and if you could just get a new spare,  then you'd change it as you don't have to make a judgment. Without supply though,  you're forced into the judgment.

They are pretty well sized for the job they've got to do and have to take very little sideways load. It's been produced with enough meat on it to not give problems during machining (they don't have to be too sparing here as it's so close to centre it's inertia is low in use). To break it like that would take many times any service load it would see, and in a direction that's not envisaged in the design. In other words it should just never be subjected to load in that plane generally. I can't imagine any more material falling off it in service,  so that shouldn't be an issue.

There seems to be a lot of the flange remaining to do the job without issue. As pointed out from the colour it's been broken a while. I feel the balance is in favour of using it, it doesn't look like it would fail.

Offline AshimotoK0

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 4473
  • Mad Scientist.... more power Igor ! ٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2018, 09:31:13 AM »
I think I have seen it mentioned on HondaTwins that those damper rings are more trouble than they are worth and some people remove them (bits break off and clog oilways when they harden). Worth searching and asking.
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline AshimotoK0

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 4473
  • Mad Scientist.... more power Igor ! ٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶
    • View Profile
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 09:35:49 AM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline Laverda120

  • SOHC Expert
  • Posts: 386
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2018, 09:51:24 AM »
Great thread and I don't even have a Bomber!
Just a thought about the lack of exhaust cams due to lobe pitting (and happy to be shot down in flames for my naivety) but could you get the damaged lobes reground by Newman Cams? They have done a lovely job on my CB250RS cam, two lobes built up and reground for £53.
I guess they could also reprofile a cam from a different model 450 into the profile you want providing they have a pattern of the profile you need and providing the newer cam is the same dimensionality as the old one?

Offline AshimotoK0

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 4473
  • Mad Scientist.... more power Igor ! ٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2018, 10:38:33 AM »
Great thread and I don't even have a Bomber!
Just a thought about the lack of exhaust cams due to lobe pitting (and happy to be shot down in flames for my naivety) but could you get the damaged lobes reground by Newman Cams? They have done a lovely job on my CB250RS cam, two lobes built up and reground for £53.
I guess they could also reprofile a cam from a different model 450 into the profile you want providing they have a pattern of the profile you need and providing the newer cam is the same dimensionality as the old one?

I probably have a cam with good journals he could have to get pits removed from the lobe(s) by hard welding/regrinding but I imagined it would work out expensive. I think a member here has used Newman cams for a 450 cam too years ago and reported good results.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:40:24 AM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline MrDavo

  • SOHC Pro
  • Posts: 581
  • He who dies with the most toys wins
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2018, 10:51:18 AM »
Quote
I guess they could also reprofile a cam from a different model 450 into the profile you want providing they have a pattern of the profile you need and providing the newer cam is the same dimensionality as the old one?

The K6 cam is the only one that's different, sadly the tacho drive gear is different too. If I can I'll run with what I've got, as the lobes and bearing sufaces are like new.

I could get goosed ones reprofiled, but I'd rather not if I don't have to.

Bubba is just used by me as a generic American name for the previous owner, but he's usually the one to watch out for when you drop the soap in the prison shower.
Quote
Bubba - name for a close friend or boyfriend. Originating from Bubs. Bubba implies someone special and close to your heart.

Bubba is a southern derivation on the word "Brother"

Urban Dictionary


From what I read in the twins forum, I wouldn't take mechanical advice from people who seem to always know better than Honda engineers (they don't), think all bikes run smoother without a head steady (maybe, then the frame cracks somewhere else that's now overstressed), and probably run noisy 450s without damper rings because they are scared to tackle splitting the camchain and taking the head off. That may have been the PO's problem, I agree. So instead he hit with a fecking hammer. Jesus wept. Perhaps he was trying to chisel the camchain apart on the exhaust chainring.

I have the cam on my desk, those damper rings, though in good nick, are rock hard. Given that my carb inlet rubbers were hard like stone with age, until Ashley put them in his magic fluid, I think they may be past their best. Should there be any 'give'?, because there isn't, they are like hard plastic.

Edit: See, I slag off the twins guys, then I find useful info on there, two faced $%*& or what?

Quote
And they're (the "rings") not plastic, but some sort of neoprene I think - when new they're very flexible.
They cannot be installed without tearing out the cams.

Another Edit: Nope, it was the sohc4.net forum after all, now they do know their onions. But these are dohc bikes, oh wait....  ;)

New ones being ordered today.

I think K2-K6's advice sounds good to me, its not a stressed area, if I could get a new cam then I probably would for peace of mind, but they are made from 100% unobtanium.

I also found this on the US sohc forum, dated September '17:

Quote
CL350 or 450?  450's are generally worth more.
What are his plans?
Does he want to keep it stock or mod it?
An intact stock exhaust on these bikes can be worth as much as the whole bike.


 8) Smug. See photos on page one.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 12:19:09 PM by MrDavo »
1971 Honda CB750 K1 'General Export Type'
1969 Honda CL450 'Dual Sport'
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport