Author Topic: The Dutch 450  (Read 4041 times)

Offline K2-K6

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The Dutch 450
« on: November 24, 2017, 06:49:24 PM »
The case history posted about this bike and linked in forum by Ash is certainly interesting from looking at the number of people now owning these engines.

http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/55-engine-discussion/33075-full-synthetic-oil-fresh-build-cb450-k0-engine-mile-0-a.html

The abovementioned link came up in discussion about ZDDP in oil. I don't know how many have read it being an interesting and different view of running one of these engines, along with attempts to mitigate some of it's perceived shortcomings.

I've been going through it a second time and intend to post on this thread my view of that study.

Worth talking about initially is some of the interaction which appears to lead to some conflict / confusion as to how contributors interact. 
Initial posting by Jensen offers a question about if anyone is reading the thread and inviting comments as it travels along.
When one contributor "Mydlyfcrysys" contributes,  it ultimately leads to that conflict. I thought he had a very valid view of viscosity in particular and found his posts well informed and relevant.
It's a shame that this resulted in his inclination to cease giving input,  also that the originator ultimately appears to accept that there was some things to consider from Mydlyfcrysys.
I can see that the originator sets out to complete his test based on a series of modifications, and wishes to see that through to quantify what affects that has on the various engine components. But some of the initial comments from him seem to wrong foot the other forum members.

It does weave a broad set of test conditions as there are a few changes from specification, making it slightly complex to unpick in order to analyse.

I'll follow with posts in splitting it up as I interpret it.

Offline K2-K6

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2017, 09:55:46 PM »
It's not often that someone constructs such a diligent,  insightful and candid overview of something like this. The time taken not only to carry out the live research but to record it so thoroughly on a public forum entails quite a dedication. I feel it's very interesting and worthwhile.

The view given particularly of using synthetic oil in this age of engine is valuable. As he points out,  many people offer opinion of this without direct experience or knowledge of attempting it. So very often the same old reason of clutch slip is rolled out to oppose even any thought about what is a very valid question. To test and record it is far more useful and productive, even if, as he points out, it ultimately does or doesn't work. Real evidence is created to prove in this case that it hasn't the detrimental effect that everyone predicts.

Thankyou to Jensen for such an illuminating record. Just from the photos and recorded experiences while riding the bike it's a great story.

As he also points out,  the whole point of starting this was for himself, with his bike, that he wants to run reliably and enjoy. We are looking in on it, but realistically he achieved most of what he set out to do.

It's not for me to judge how he views his own case,  but I think there are some important points I'd disagree with from an engineering point of view if you were to apply it to your own bike.

Offline MrDavo

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2017, 12:59:51 AM »
It’s always hard to know, when writing long and carefully reasoned posts, whether you are talking to yourself or being carefully followed by readers with a real interest, it was touched on here in a long rebuild thread - I read every post, but the contributor despaired that no one seemed to care.

The question of modern synthetic oils has been discussed at length in air cooled Porsche forums which I frequent, where clutch slip is not an issue, the consensus is that your engine parts will last much longer, but the oil will be trying to make a bid for freedom through oil seals never designed to contain something so slippery.

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Offline K2-K6

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2017, 03:04:56 PM »
It's hard to judge how it balances I feel as the sentiment of Jensen's thread moved around a bit. I've read it about 3 times now by variously going back over  it to get some parts straight in my mind.
I've chosen to post about it on here rather than disturb the original thread for those that are running this type of engine.

There's not the intention to criticise the original, I hope it's not considered in that way. More that the original is so detailed with each effect reported it opens up a much further scope of discussion.
He seems a very interesting person with the confidence to form and carry out his own testing. I'd like to meet him.


Offline K2-K6

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2017, 03:45:25 PM »
Starting with the camshaft and running this engine while preserving it's condition.

Two things for me stand out in this area,  there's a position of super diligence applied over both tappet clearances and oil condition. My feeling is these play an absolutely vital role in keeping any camshaft / valve train from undesirable wear. That's over and above any other criteria.

You can see from the long term data that the valve clearances generally diminish by very small amounts. That indicates that the original design and material integrity are able to support the intended use. Making the assumption clearances close up due to the valve face and seat wearing under normal duty cycle,  the changes he records entirely support that view. If you had any wear in the train components from friction, then the clearance would be increasing.
The above, in being as I see it,  normal, demonstrates the risk area in running one of these engines from assembly. If you let that clearance disappear, resulting in the follower running all the time in contact with the cam,  then it will have one of the greatest influences over cam life.

Valve train designs contain the springs already pre loaded and held in compression by their geometry. If you run the cam with even the slightest valve lift on the base circle of the cam,  it subjects the surfaces to the full force (virtually)  of the spring rate. Decent sized valves with rpm getting to 10,000rpm is always going to need fairly high rated springs. This would challenge even the most advanced oil you could ever use in there,  it's to be avoided at all costs.
It's absolutely correct to be so so diligent with these settings.

Oil condition is the real partner to the above. The shear loading of the oil is most challenged at this interface,  any degradation in film strength will be punished at this load site. Any dilution of the oil with contaminants will compromise it's ability in this field so all measures to preserve it's original condition should be considered.

This is another area that diligence is paramount,  jetting the engine to run correctly and burn it's fuel efficiently. He makes the observation about setting up and checking the carburation to get it correct. If you run with standard intake setup then you have a good start point with specified jetting etc. If you run any engine too rich it will pass unburnt fuel and combustion byproducts past the piston rings and into the oil. It's this that compromises the oil performance.
Ultimately,  I believe,  it's this point that the oil changes are relatively short interval on bikes of this era.

Again,  diligence in this area is vital to the oil performance.

Offline SteveD CB500K0

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The Dutch 450
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2017, 06:44:56 PM »
I read every post (I’m sure others do too).

Even the really long ones.


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Offline K2-K6

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2017, 06:39:23 PM »
I feel that in this particular area,  the original problem statement / issue,  of how to stop the camshaft and followers wearing is very very difficult to draw real conclusions that withstand detailed scrutiny. This is made more of a problem by the assumption that a particular oil brand/specification is responsible for the lack of wear.

As others point out,  there is no real quantifiable, totally within normal specification engine, run through the same routine, to compare.

I feel it's entirely correct to make such an effort in setting the valve system to optimum ex factory spec. It also seems to me that to run with slightly larger tappet clearances during its initial running, post build term, has potentially big longer term positives. I'd do the same.

If you were to plot the loss of valve clearance against mileage and then compare to the servicing interval / specification published by Honda, you could observe if any wear would be controlled by that schedule and so prevent the followers riding on the cam base circle. The first service must, by expecting the most movement during initial mileage,  must be looked at as one of the most critical.

I think the jetting setup is also a very valid point in contributing to the oil condition. In this country we seem to use a dyno only for engines that are modified in some way. A routine check to really see what a standard bike is set to, can only give a more informed view of something you may have invested alot of time and money in.
You can see a very interesting parallel regarding this area in cars. As they moved to improving their emissions and ultimately a far better control of fuel air mixture,  they've been able to extend the oil change intervals as combustion contaminants are hugely reduced.
CV carbs are much better than slide at giving asymmetric fuelling that facilitates this invoice engines,  but you'd certainly have to verify what they are delivering.

As Mydlyfcrysys says,  it looks that by being so scrupulous in building and adjusting the engine then it's likely it would have succeeded whichever decent oil had been used. Jensen has taken out all the main issues before considering the oil.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 07:25:56 PM by K2-K6 »

Offline K2-K6

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2017, 07:44:57 PM »
He came across this one as it's not obvious initially that there was no operating oil pressure relief valve fitted within the system mods.

Oil pressure relief as I understand it is, in any engine, there to protect the oil pump drive in the event of too much hydraulic pressure not being able to escape the oil feed architecture.

If you are running for example at high rpm and the system overpressurises from too little leakdown, then if the oil pump is unable to force the oil through the system it can shear the drive method. There's too much mass in the crank going round to stop that rotating. The pump would be compromised as it's a much weaker component.

Changing the oil viscosity upwards would also have increased that risk,  especially when up to temp and running fast.

You can't tell from the data what causes a change in engine BHP output when comparing the different viscosity oils,  but only one,  general engine friction from having a thicker oil on components was considered. I'd look at it as far more likely the energy was more associated with driving the oil pump itself, it will just consume more energy to pump thicker oil.

So it was running,  thicker oil,  higher capacity pump and no relief valve! I think he felt lucky he hadn't seen a failure.

Offline K2-K6

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2017, 08:41:47 PM »
Changing to larger capacity oil pump seems to have been decided it was a dead end route.

As some other poster's pointed out, it's realistic to consider the whole system if you look at modifying any part of it. The later posts indicate that with 10/40 oil and std pump it will succeed it activating the pressure relief valve at higher rpm and hot oil.
This shows that by increasing the pump delivery rate it can't change oil flow in that region,  just more of it will bleed out through the valve.

It looks from his observations the cold running pressure relief is in response to oil viscosity increasing at those lowered temps,  obviously in combination with system restrictions.
The hot release though,  shows that the maximum flow of the system peaks before maximum revs with the pump going on to deliver excess flow above that threshold. This is the true system maximum flow,  and what the other poster's are saying. Just putting higher capacity pump / delivery can't increase the oil throughput beyond a certain point.

For that CB500T oil pump,  if you wished to increase the flow to the camshaft and altered the route to that area by increasing dimensions,  then you'd get a corresponding decrease in oil pressure for the 450 pump. You could then increase the pump delivery rate,  as they did,  pressure would go back up and you'd still have a balanced system but with increased flow to cams.

Offline K2-K6

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2017, 09:24:49 PM »
The commonly given reason for cam and follower wear being the time it takes for oil to reach it from a cold start is worth looking at.

Stated reduction in oil arrival time from 40/60 secs down to 20/40 secs suggested,  as he observes,  that the drain down of the system after last use is affecting this. If you create a partial void in the system,  then the increased delivery of the 500T pump will simply fill the void in shorter time. It seems reasonable that his view of the filter system bleeding back into the sump is possible.

It's like having a full hose pipe,  turn on the tap and what's in the pipe immediately comes out the other end. Conversely,  empty hose pipe,  turn tap on and count the secs while water travels through the system.

Although still with what appears to be a long supply time,  the subject engine surpasses 30,000 miles with virtually no observable component wear. This has always been an area of interaction in which ZDDP is most useful.
I doubt if the tested oil has any appreciable level of it though. It's very difficult to gain that sort of information.

Added further thoughts; it would be worth considering the effect of using 500T oil pump and pairing it with 0w/30 viscosity oil to get higher flow but limit the excess pressure concern by capping viscosity max.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 10:44:33 PM by K2-K6 »

Offline K2-K6

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2017, 11:12:58 AM »
Making it much harder to gain a clear view in the original thread are the number of variations / modifications that have been made from original specification,  it may be useful to list those items.

Using car specified oil as opposed to motorcycle specific.
Change oil to synthetic.
Change of oil viscosity.
Change of oil pump.
Change of oil filter type.
Deletion of pressure releif valve.
Change of oil service interval.
External filtration of oil.
Increase of starting valve clearances.
Fitment of magnet in sump.
Change of cylinder bore honing method to plateu.

How to judge the effect of these as they interact is no small task. It would certainly keep a R&D department busy,  even in descrete multiple engine examples.
Some of the effects are certainly evaluated more clearly but it more easily obscures those which may be detrimental. Or something detrimental may negate a positive,  in which case it would be easy to dismiss something that could be of benefit.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 01:04:15 PM by K2-K6 »

Offline UK Pete

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2017, 03:23:43 PM »
Wow what a good read, i missed original posts having been away from this forum for  a year ,

Offline K2-K6

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2017, 04:26:42 PM »
Thanks Pete, it was good to see your name pop up on the forum again after such a gap, hope you're well.

MrDavo,  I'm of a similar opinion regarding oil type and will work my way towards that after trying to get all the other stuff out of my head and onto paper,  as it were.

I think that Jensen made a fascinating project which I'm trying to make sure I don't diminish. But I do think that a view from perhaps a different angle can be complimentary to things like this. Hopefully it'll be seen as something of a peer review and constructive,  that's what I'm aiming at.

Nigel.

Offline K2-K6

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2017, 10:38:54 PM »
Changing the oil filter to a paper type I can't see the advantage of doing.

I'll say, it looks to me, like the centrifuge type holds an advantage over the paper type as that's what published data indicates.

Its any easy view to project that newer (paper cartridge type)  filtration method would simply be better than an "old fashioned" rotating filter. But it seems generally that paper type,  without special arrangements will be filtering down to about 10 microns particals size. The centrifuge appears to operate around 3 micron. How true that is would be down to specifics.
It looks like deletion of the centrifuge would have originally taken place for production bikes as it's simply cheaper to not include a chunk of engineering from the design. Replaced with a filter element,  in an external chamber that can help to cool the oil while reducing production and design costs seems attractive. It doesn't look like it happened for filtration reasons.

I know the original thread examines the ability to remove particals as part of the decision,  and I can see that if you use 60 viscosity oil it could impact that performance,  but so will trying to push that increased viscosity through a paper filter.
It doesn't appear to make sense as a modification to these engines. Perhaps someone else can offer a move informed view.

In addition,  if the type of pump is giving pulsed oil pressure rather than linear there seems to be some opinions that may impact a cartridge / paper filter.

I'd be inclined to side with the opinion that Honda knew what they we're doing as opposed to modified part without understanding completely what this mod offers as an improvement.

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Re: The Dutch 450
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2017, 07:49:42 AM »
Nigel .. I have been away a week on holiday and just read all of this ...fascinating stuff .. I still need to go back and re-read all of Jensen's posts on this. I often get criticised myself over in depth posts like this... for example on my coil repair write-up and CX500 CDI rebuild I get comment like 'why bother when there are el-cheopo alternatives out there' and it's sometimes hard to convince non-electrical people that using a 2 Ohm coil instead of the original 4.5 Ohm one means that the points are making over twice the current, that they normally would. Jensen's original posts and your replies are always there for future reference though. Members on all forums come and go but provided that the posts don't get buried (as they often do on our USA sister site) there is always new blood coming along to appreciate all of your efforts. You will also find a lot of posts from Jensen on Honda305.com but I think he had to change his handle on there to 'Jensey' as his 'Jensen' identity was lost on there.

Cheers ... Ash
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