Author Topic: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall  (Read 38349 times)

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2019, 08:24:25 AM »
Thats handy Ash if your in the market for a "Massive Frame".

I mentioned earlier that I had too many projects on the go to get the Bomber in the garage at the moment. Does anyone else have this same problem, plus I have another lock-up that looks about the same?

CB350F at the back still waiting for me to sort out the smoking on pot 4 issue, GS1000 at the front still waiting for it's tank back from Menno, CB750F2 that is the only bike I keep taxed and tested all year round and ironically it's the only bike that needs tax and test. Next year they will all be free, Hurrah.

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« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 08:28:27 AM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

Offline Laverda Dave

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2019, 03:26:18 PM »
 My garage is the same Roy. Too many bikes and not enough space anymore! The Triton is now sitting outside under a tarp since I restored another 400/4. I need to sell a couple of bikes before I buy anything else. Problem is which one do you get rid of, they all have a special reason to be kept!
1976 Honda 400/4
1977 Rickman Honda CR750
1999 Honda VFR 800FX
1955 750 Dresda Triton
1978 Moto Morini 350 Sport
1978 Honda CB400/4 'Rat' bike
1982 Laverda 120 Jota

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2019, 07:37:23 AM »
Been a busy time getting the remaining parts off the engine and degreasing to get them as good as possible. The PO supplied a spare set of crank cases with the bike so those were brought out of storage to be inspected. Unfortunately the bottom case has some bad cracking along the front as if it had been hit on something.

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It certainly looks like it's taken a fair few impacts to the front. Can't be a kerb as it should be protected by the frame. After looking into getting it welded up it was suggested that I check the part numbers to see if they are a matched set. And sure enough the top and bottom cases have different part numbers, so after checking the original set, I am using the replacement top with the original bottom. So after a good bit of masking up and fitting scrap bolts in threaded holes the cases were sent for vapour blasting and the rest for bead blasting. These days it's probably better to get it all soda blasted but my guys are local and are very careful. Obviously they need a severe cleaning afterwards to ensure no grit remains. They came up really well.

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Been busy with the scrap plywood offcuts and the jigsaw and made myself an engine stand. Not too shabby and cost nothing.

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Tha alternator cover has not done too well in the past. This is what happens on a 450 when you fall off left hand side. The gear change lever goes straight through the case. These things are super rare as a great many were damaged so stocks are gone. Will keep looking though you never know. My plan is to remove the epoxy repair and get it welded up, then either a ceramic or powder coated chrome finish. Should work okay.

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Whilst I was waiting for the blasting I sorted the carbs out and sent them off to Matt Harper for repair along with all genuine gaskets, jets, needles, and springs. The remainder of parts are good quality pattern such as the floats. Not sure what Matt will find on these as they dont look to be in too good condition and there is some damage to one carb but I have managed to source the correct parts to repair that.

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Next job is the bit I never look forward to, that's masking up and painting the parts. After that it's off to the machine shop to get the required carried out. More soon.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 07:41:07 AM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2019, 11:03:38 AM »
With almost any other engine I’d be saying ‘oh no you can’t mix crankcases’ but with the unique design of the bomber, as long as you use the bearing caps that came with the top half, I don’t see that it matters. Mine have machined pairs for the outer bearings but not so on the four speed.

I had similar problems with the CL450 alternator cover, mine had been attacked by a gear lever too. I couldn’t find the right cover unmolested, but winged it with one off a 500 twin eventually.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Online AshimotoK0

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2019, 11:18:25 AM »
With almost any other engine I’d be saying ‘oh no you can’t mix crankcases’ but with the unique design of the bomber, as long as you use the bearing caps that came with the top half, I don’t see that it matters. Mine have machined pairs for the outer bearings but not so on the four speed.

I had similar problems with the CL450 alternator cover, mine had been attacked by a gear lever too. I couldn’t find the right cover unmolested, but winged it with one off a 500 twin eventually.

CB250/350K , even though they have the bearing arrangement like the CB450 5-speed  are not matched and have separate part numbers. I thought the only Honda's this is not the case with are the models with shell, plain bearings.
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2019, 11:21:21 AM »
On the four speed it is okay to use the four bearing carriers that came with the crank.

I used the same guys as you did Dave to get the crank rebuilt and cleaned, D&M Engineering who were sure I could take the crank out of one set of cases and straight into another set. They said it was full of the same black goo that covered most of the engine but all parts were in tolerance and good condition. Glad I had it done as I wasn't going to bother, but that goo would have destroyed it as soon as it was fired up. So money well spent.

As the crank simply hangs from the top crankcase on studs located by a machined cut out, it has no matching machined parts in the lower unlike any of the other shell bearing Honda's. So happy days.
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

Online Bryanj

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2019, 11:59:38 AM »
250 and 400 wet dreams lower case was just a cover the shell bearings were held by a machined with top case carrier.

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2019, 12:32:18 PM »
Ahh yes the wet dreams I had forgotten about them, or did my brain block them out. A fantastic bike but I just didn't like them.
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

Offline Laverda Dave

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2019, 02:57:13 PM »
Looking good Roy. I agree with you about vapour blasting, I think it's OK to do as long as you trust who's doing it and wash, wash and wash the cases when you get them back. I use I Cleenz Machinez, not cheap but they do a fantastic job and are bikers themselves.
1976 Honda 400/4
1977 Rickman Honda CR750
1999 Honda VFR 800FX
1955 750 Dresda Triton
1978 Moto Morini 350 Sport
1978 Honda CB400/4 'Rat' bike
1982 Laverda 120 Jota

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2019, 09:39:53 AM »
Moving on. I got all the parts nice and clean, it took some effort with the gear clusters. I was reluctant to use a solvent to clean them as it can sneak into all the little openings and cause damage. In the end I used a thin machine oil and a new paint brush, worked really well and got them really clean as you can see in the photo. I then blew them out with compressed air and spun the bearings, they are perfect condition so I just gave them a good oiling with clean engine oil. The gears and shafts were also as good as new so the whole assembly can go back in as is.

The casings, barrels, and head were painted with Simonize VHT silver except for the lower crankcase that was left unpainted. Guess that was a Honda cost saving move? The postman has been busy delivering parts from CMS, Silvers, and eBay. I spent a while checking what was there and writing on the bags what the contents were for. I also sorted them roughly into the correct order of use. See I'm finally learning that forever sorting through a big box of parts looking for one item is frustrating. An hour well spent.

I started the assembly with the top case upside down and got the crank, gearchange barrel and gear clusters into place. I used all new shaft bushes and assembled using Graphegen and oil. For a sophisticated (for the day) engine it is actually a very simple bottom end to assemble. Clearly Honda gave the assembly a lot of thought. You will probably remember that the crank had been previously rebuilt by D&M Engineering so was ready to go straight in, although I took the liberty of generously lubricating it all with the oil can. I found it a bit nervy tightening down the crankshaft as the quoted torques are pretty high and I was afraid of stripping a stud. So much so I checked the torque settings in four different places and tried two torque wrenches in the vice first. All went well in the end though.

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For the sharp eyed amongst you, the bag marked "spare bits" is not bits I forgot to put back in. They were duplicates from the replacement crank cases.

The lower case contains the kickstart mechanism that was a bit fiddly to assemble but not too much swearing. It was all assembled with new circlips and seals, and again with Graphegen and oil. The lower case is basically just a cover and slips over the studs and is located by two dowels. The joint was sealed with a thin coating of clear silicone and tightened down using new stainless nuts and washers. The studs are tightened from both the top and bottom of the cases.

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At this point my home made plywood engine stand comes into play, and a thing of beauty she is to. All's looking good so far, next up is the pistons, barrels, and clutch mechanism.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 10:08:35 AM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

Online Bryanj

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2019, 10:38:32 AM »
I had forgotten just how long those studs are!

Offline Laverda Dave

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2019, 11:14:18 AM »
Impressive progress Roy 👍.
1976 Honda 400/4
1977 Rickman Honda CR750
1999 Honda VFR 800FX
1955 750 Dresda Triton
1978 Moto Morini 350 Sport
1978 Honda CB400/4 'Rat' bike
1982 Laverda 120 Jota

Offline MCTID

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2019, 12:31:14 PM »
Looking good Roy. The massive Journal Bearing Housings are things of wonder........Honda didn't intend that Crank to 'flex' did they.....reminds me of the Gearboxes on the Overhead Cranes I used to work on many moons ago.........'made in Scotland frae girders' !!!!!

Keep up the good work, excellent commentary and great photees......each one worth a 'thousand words'.
Now: 2008 CB1300S, CB750K4, 1970 Bonneville. Various other 1960's 650 Triumph T120's/ TR6's/ TR6C's (all in bits...many, many bits unfortunately). Previous: 2007 CB600FA, 1976 CB500 Four. BMW F800ST. GS750E. ZZR1100. CB1300 (2). ZXR1200S. VFR800. CB750 Nighthawk. CX500. XS500 Yam. Suzuki GT500. BSA A10. Various Lambrettas. Zundapp Bella (honest).

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2019, 12:52:15 PM »
This photo gives a better view of the journals. Fairly robust item so not sure why it was changed for later models, maybe another easier to machine cost saving who knows.

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Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2019, 07:55:12 AM »
Now where were we? The crankcases are together and ready to work on the two sides.

It would appear from comments made on this forum and others that the Bomber suffers from low oil pressure to the cams. The outcome is usually the failure of the exhaust cam which are now virtually unobtainable. My exhaust cam has suffered with slight pitting on one cam lobe. The repair theory was to fit the larger aluminium bodied oil pump from the later 450's or the 500T. Jensen tested this theory and found that due to the larger diameter pump piston it pushed the connecting rod off centre causing wear. So with that in mind, and the fact that having a garage full of bikes it's never going to see high mileage, I have decided to stick with the standard 450 pump. The early pumps also suffered from poor design around the pick-up that caused oil to be drawn in causing a vortex that wore a hole in the pumps debris screen. My existing pump has this problem.

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I had a look around for a NOS standard pump and couldn't find one so put a "part request" on the Silvers site. I only had to wait a week for the DSS email to say he had one in stock, a bit pricey at £210 but needs must.

Before the pump and clutch can go in I reassembled the gearchange mechanism and springs (very fiddly) and checked they functioned freely. This mechanism is very simple and well thought out, top marks there Honda.

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The pump is a reciprocating type that drives off a large oil fed offset boss on the back of the clutch basket. The pump and the clutch needs to be fitted together as one unit (this is a real bind if you need to access the pump as the entire clutch has to be removed to get at it). Before that started I checked all the clutch components for damage and wear and found them to be in really good order. The clutch plain plates were checked for wear and warping and were also good. New friction plates came from Wemoto and are Vesrah.

I gave the pump boss a good coat of Graphegen and oil before assembly as it may take a while for oil flow to reach that area and I don't want the new pump connecting rod to end up scored. The pump and clutch were assembled and torqued down using all new locking tabs for security. I have also fitted a new clutch push rod as the existing item was badly corroded around the seal area and may have ended up being the cause of a leak. After assembly I dropped the cam chain down off it's crank sprocket and checked that the engine was free to rotate smoothly. All was very good so am well pleased.

(There's my lovely daily rider CB750F2 in the background. She's a babe)

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I found on the strip down that my "low mileage" engine was on its last rebore size that was also worn out. I managed to source another barrel from DK that was on standard size but had rust in one barrel. The eBay price was £60 so I offered £35 and stuck to my guns and got it for £38 so not a bad deal, or so I thought. After very good reviews and a few recommends on this site I decided to go with the Cruzinimage piston kit at plus 0.5mm. This skips an oversize but due to the light rust in one barrel it would give enough meat to clean it up. My engineer rebored the bad barrel first and it didn't clean up so he took it out to plus 1mm and it still didn't clean up. We pressed the liner out and weirdly the rust had gone right through to the outside of the liner. Emailed DK who didn't have another barrel on stock size so refunded my £38 no problem (what a superb outfit they are). So I'm without a barrel. Then like a Knight in shining armour along comes Ash's amazing stash and offers up a barrel for free, many thanks for that Ash. As I now had the piston kit I may as well use it so it bored out lovely to plus 0.5mm.

With the barrel rebored to 1 thou clearance and the piston kit fitted and new gaskets, the barrels went straight on.

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Another weak point on the Bomber (and hence the parts are rarer than rare) is the starter clutch. It appears the clutch back plate is a bit thin and tends to push the rollers out that bends the plate and then it jams. And you don't really want your starter being dragged around at crank speed as it doesn't do it any good and makes a bit of noise. So I gave mine a good looking at and all parts looked straight and wear free so it was assembled onto the crank and tested. Worked spot on. Thought I would pop the new engine sprocket on whilst I was at it, with a new lock ring and bolts for security.

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Looking good so far and no problems that I haven't been able to overcome. I took the precaution of putting lengths of coat hanger wire through the cam chain ends, it would be a shame to have it fall into the engine as it looks like it would be very difficult to fish it out again.

More next time.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 08:59:07 AM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

 

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