Author Topic: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall  (Read 1811 times)

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2019, 04:46:01 PM »
The next assembly is the cams and cam chain. After cleaning the cams I gave them a really good magnifying glass inspection. The inlet cam and followers are almost as new, but the exhaust cams are looking a little worse for wear. This is a common fault on these engines as the exhaust cam is the last point of delivery on the oil supply circuit so the exhaust cam can sometimes be starved of lubrication. I don't think I am going to risk reinstalling as they are as it's easier to remedy the situation now rather than when forced to later. As the exhaust cam is a weak point on this engine NOS parts are completely gone, however should the inlet cam ever go there are any number of new ones available. So this is a repair rather than replace situation.

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From a recommend on the forum I have contacted Newman Cams in Kent who have offered to repair the damage for me. They are going to regrind both cam lobes and either regrind the followers or weld a pad onto them and reprofile. So things are going to be held up again whilst the cams are returned. My fault as I should have checked the cams sooner.

The fuel tank is now ready to ship off to Menno for strip/lining/repaint. But first I had to remove a cap head screw and two hex self tappers that had been dropped into the tank and had jammed inside. The cap head was lodged between the outer and inner skin near the outlet spigot with the other two screws jammed underneath. Strangely they defied all efforts to get then out and were really in there tight. I had to make a special tool from a piece of stainless bar that I could use to get under the cap head and turn it with Mole grips. Thankfully it worked great and the screw popped out and released the other two. Couldn't get a photo of the screws as they were too deep inside the tank. The tank looks to be in pretty good condition if you ignore the paint, should turn out lovely.

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Also had a few parts back from chroming. I am not allowed to say on the forum who the chromer is as he does not want to be mobbed with work, think he may be semi retired. So sorry I usually like to pass on details of people who I have found to be good but this time I'm sworn to secrecy.

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At the minute I am trying to get the fuel tank completely finished and get all the pieces of the exhaust system in place. Two of the more expensive items out of the way.

Got some work to do on another engine for a while now so I will continue with this thread when Newman Cams send back the exhaust cam.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 04:48:49 PM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive (still smoking on pot 4 Ggrrrrrr)
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC (Bastard tried to burn me to death last night)
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)

Offline Laverda120

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2019, 05:23:54 PM »
Roy, did you manage to speak with Mike Newman in order to progress your work?
Chrome looks great. The plater I use has asked me not to reveal his details as he does bike chrome as a hobby from his main bulk order work.
I look forward to the next instalment.
1976 Honda 400/4
1977 Honda 400/4
1981 Honda CB250RSA
1977 Rickman Honda CR750
1999 Honda VFR 800FX
1955 750 Dresda Triton
1978 Moto Morini 350 Sport
1982 Laverda 120 Jota
1924 Triumph 550SD
2012 Stanley Battery Drill

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2019, 09:14:34 AM »
The good news is that the tank has arrived with Menno without damage, and only three days to get there all for £24.60 insured. I know you all have your favourites but I can't recommend Parcel Hero enough, never let me down yet. But I do always pick the DPD option with them.

Exhaust cams came back yesterday From Newman Cams. It took a total of 8.5 weeks to do the job after I had been promised 2-3 weeks at the outset. That said I think it was worth the wait as they have done an excellent job. I think it may have been easier if I had heeded the warning to ask for Mike Newman as advised by Laverda 120, instead I got Ken Newman who appears to operate in a state of complete chaos. Anyway we got there in the end. Job total including return post was £98, so well pleased with that as well. They reground both cam lobes and both followers for that price.

They now need a really good clean down all the oil galleries to remove any grinding debris that's bound to be in there. As I don't have a brush that tiny it will be lots of carb cleaner and compressed air I think

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Whilst they were away I spent a morning trimming down the dodgy NE gaskets that were protruding past the castings. It was a very slow tedious job with a new scalpel blade as they are next to painted surfaces. So not wanting to repeat this experience I checked the other gaskets still to be used and put them in the bin. I now have genuine Honda gaskets for the rest of the build. So that's yet another thing to check before starting the job, appears you can't really trust any pattern parts anymore. I thought the quality may have got better with greater demand but the opposite appears to be happening. There's an ex forum member sat up there on his cloud laughing his socks off. ;D  Good old Bitsa.

I'm going to have to do a bit of reading up before I attempt to fit the cams as it's a bit of a strange arrangement. Can't be that hard to do though as Honda managed to do it at production line speed.

Sometime before Easter I am going to bring the rest of the bike from the lock-up and get it stripped down. After packing the tank off to Menno I was looking at having a go at the rest of the paintwork myself, but I was having a look at it yesterday and now I'm not so sure. Menno has given me some good advice along with a paint code, but I feel another large box to Germany coming on shortly. Ash is kindly repairing the very rare and hard to get Elephant Horn for me at the moment, any luck with it Ash and thanks for your help. Hopefully it will look like this when finished.

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« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 11:43:25 AM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive (still smoking on pot 4 Ggrrrrrr)
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC (Bastard tried to burn me to death last night)
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)

Offline Laverda120

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2019, 10:25:31 AM »
Glad you got the Cams back at last Roy. They have done a nice job, shame about the 8 week wait though! It certainly depends who you get I think, when the cb250rs blew up I sent the damaged cam to Newmans on the Tuesday and it was back with me on the Thursday! Worth the wait though for what you got back and the price.
I went to visit the DS museum last Tuesday for the first time, I do like the rugged look of the black bombers, maybe I should sell the Jota and downsize to something a bit more manageable and cheaper to run.
Personally, I would send all the paint to Menno I don't think anyone can match his quality of work especially when combined with piki's decals.
1976 Honda 400/4
1977 Honda 400/4
1981 Honda CB250RSA
1977 Rickman Honda CR750
1999 Honda VFR 800FX
1955 750 Dresda Triton
1978 Moto Morini 350 Sport
1982 Laverda 120 Jota
1924 Triumph 550SD
2012 Stanley Battery Drill

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2019, 10:40:36 AM »
Glad you got the Cams back at last Roy. They have done a nice job, shame about the 8 week wait though! It certainly depends who you get I think, when the cb250rs blew up I sent the damaged cam to Newmans on the Tuesday and it was back with me on the Thursday! Worth the wait though for what you got back and the price.
I went to visit the DS museum last Tuesday for the first time, I do like the rugged look of the black bombers, maybe I should sell the Jota and downsize to something a bit more manageable and cheaper to run.
Personally, I would send all the paint to Menno I don't think anyone can match his quality of work especially when combined with piki's decals.
Okay you talked me out of it, just looking for an excuse to find a big box. ;D  Wouldn't mind a Jota myself, but out of my price range now.
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive (still smoking on pot 4 Ggrrrrrr)
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC (Bastard tried to burn me to death last night)
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)

Offline Bryanj

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2019, 11:00:13 AM »
Did a few 500T motors, 450 was before even my workshop time. Same cam drive but without a proper chain riveting tool they are not easy to finish. The Honda one worked best but was expensive to buy and some of the cheaper ones were a bit big to get into the space.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2019, 02:01:33 PM »
I will make sure I get on with the horn Roy   :-[ :-[

Interested to see what type finish you choose on the silver painted cycle parts. I got a 'NOS in Honda box'  front mudguard from Japan for my Bomber and the paint finish looks nothing like that on the 'show pony' restoration you mostly see with clear coated finish on top of a silver base-coat. The NOS guard has a flat satin like finish.
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2019, 02:16:27 PM »
Thanks Ash. I don't think the silver should be clear coated. My guess is it's done to provide some durability and protection from fuel spills etc. Would be handy if you could ask a paint supplier for a match to your new mudguard and get a paint code though (I think it may be Honda Cloud Silver CSB-195). I was thinking about doing the clear coat  for the above reasons, would prefer to not do it twice due to a spill.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 04:44:49 PM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive (still smoking on pot 4 Ggrrrrrr)
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC (Bastard tried to burn me to death last night)
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)

Offline sye

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2019, 02:25:16 PM »
You can get clear 2k matt and satin lacquers.

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #69 on: July 04, 2019, 07:29:17 AM »
I'm back after a fair few unexpected problems with the Bomber engine. The project has been stalled since March and has been slightly frustrating.

I managed to get the exhaust cams and speedo drive gear together and assembled into the head. Used Graphogen and oil on the cam bearings to give it a chance whilst the oil reaches that high up into the engine. The oil also has to fill some quite large cavities on it's way to reaching the cams so may be a while waiting for forced lubrication. Looks like a new cam now Newmans have done the do.

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The inlet side I am not so lucky. This is a really strange problem, the bearing caps on the right hand side have a cast on marker for setting the cam timing. For some unknown reason some plonker has seen fit to file off the mark, why would someone do that? So once again Ash has saved the day and is lending me the cap from his bomber engine so I can re-mark my cap.

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What I shall do is fit Ash's cap and measure down from a fixed point then re-fit my cap and measure back from the point and scribe a line (does that make sense?). Including the packing and postage time this daft little problem has set the project back nearly 2 weeks. Weird the things that pop up on these old bikes.

Having got past the marker issue I got the inlet cam fitted okay. Now for the part I have not been looking forwards to, fitting the cam chain. If not already done, it is essential to fit wires to both ends of the cam chain and tie them off somewhere. If the chain should fall into the engine it's a top end strip down to retrieve it as it's a long way down to the crankshaft (unless you get very lucky with a long flexible magnet thingy).

The cam chain passes over no less than 7 guide wheels so it's pretty complex and awkward. The chain is best riveted from the inlet side as there is more room, so the chain needs to be lowered off the crankshaft and pulled through enough to pull it over the wheels to the back of the engine. The cam adjusters need to be slackened off to give the most space to turn the cams. With the crank set to the LT mark (left piston TDC) the cams need to be set to the markers on the right hand sides. The inlet cam turned by hand to it's mark but the exhaust cam required grips to turn it as it was coming onto the lobe at the correct position. The chain then has to be teased into a position where it can be riveted and a soft link rivet pressed into place. I fitted the like without the side plate and turned the engine until I could get the rivet tool in (not easy).

Having managed to set the chain link I turned the engine to back round to LT to check that the timing was correct. To my relief I got it first time.

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That's the worst part over with, Honda must have had an easy way set up to do that job on a production basis. I thought I was on the home run with this engine but little did I know that more problems were lurking in the shadows. One day maybe it will get finished who knows?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 07:48:03 AM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive (still smoking on pot 4 Ggrrrrrr)
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC (Bastard tried to burn me to death last night)
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #70 on: July 05, 2019, 08:26:04 AM »
All that's left to do now is to set the valve clearances and fill the engine with oil. At that point I will connect a battery to the starter and spin it over. I would like to check that oil is reaching the top of the engine before I button it up.

After going through the valve setting procedure, it was evident that the right side exhaust valve had a clearance problem. It appears that there is just not enough adjustment to set the valve, maybe too much was removed during the cam install?

I won't discuss this further here as it's already been well covered on another thread.  http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,19423.0.html
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 08:27:44 AM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive (still smoking on pot 4 Ggrrrrrr)
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC (Bastard tried to burn me to death last night)
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #71 on: July 05, 2019, 07:27:11 PM »
What did you do about the various camchain idlers/tensioners Roy .. did you replace or refurbish them? (see my post)

http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,19495.msg172509/topicseen.html#new
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2019, 10:07:32 AM »
What did you do about the various camchain idlers/tensioners Roy .. did you replace or refurbish them? (see my post)

http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,19495.msg172509/topicseen.html#new
I cleaned and checked all the chain wheels, and they all looked in good condition so they went back in. I thought I was going to have to replace some of them as they were black and cruddy but they cleaned up a treat. Teeth were good and no play in the bushes, so they just got a good oiling. That was a bit of a relief as they are not all available, and what are available are expensive.
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive (still smoking on pot 4 Ggrrrrrr)
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC (Bastard tried to burn me to death last night)
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)