Author Topic: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall  (Read 3299 times)

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2019, 11:15:05 PM »
What are they like on sprocket position as it may just be the bearing retainer sleeve is different. Loads of people are selling 500T hubs as 450, is it just the K0 that's different to the rest. have you got a later 450 hub you can check against the K0.

They can't be vastly different as I know it's possible to fit a 500T engine straight into a bomber. Maybe they beefed it up at some point to stop the cracking.

Been watching one all week advertised as cb450/cl450/500T that the seller says has no cracks, he's also sure it will fit so I have put a sniper bid on. Finishes in 16 minutes so I may be the owner of more scrap iron.

Cheers.

If you notice Roy the 500T doesn't have the ribs on the outside like the Bomber (see red arrow in attached photo).I don't have any 450 5-speed hubs to compare but I can have a closer inspection of the differences in the 500T tomorrow.

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“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2019, 11:28:32 PM »
I just checked and the K1 5-Sp hub and CB500T rear hubs are both ---292--- part numbers. Original was -000 but superseded to -010 500T part. for K1
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 11:32:42 PM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #92 on: December 01, 2019, 07:55:11 AM »
Thinking more about it.. maybe squeezing  an extra gear into the 450 extended the width of the engine around the gearbox output shaft by a few mm. So I guess a 450 5-sp engine would fit into K0 Bomber frame but then you would need to use a 5-sp hub. You can't beat having the parts side by side to compare. People have possibly just fitted a 5-sp engine into a Bomber and had a few mm of chain mislignment which is a bit worrying.

I posted originally that below may have been pattern but I guess just corroded Genuine parts  and hence a changed CMSNL part no.

CB450K0 Bomber 'imperfect alternative' (I guess it means they are corroded by their description)
https://www.cmsnl.com/products/imperfect/hub-rear-wheel_OC-0001.2982/#.XeNwhIP7TIU
CB450K1  'imperfect alternative'
https://www.cmsnl.com/products/imperfect/hubrr-wheel_OC-0001.4050/#.XeNw9oP7TIU

Also checked and one spacer is Bomber 283 part on the K1 and the other side is a 292 part which would figure.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 08:13:32 AM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline Arch stanton

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #93 on: December 01, 2019, 08:09:17 AM »
Hello Roy.
I have both front & rear hubs. Complete with brake plates, spindles, spacers & adjusters. I am in Garstang.
Regards.
Sean.

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2019, 10:02:06 AM »
I just checked and the K1 5-Sp hub and CB500T rear hubs are both ---292--- part numbers. Original was -000 but superseded to -010 500T part. for K1
You are correct Ash. They moved the sprocket over at the beginning of the 5 speed. Just taken me 2 hours to establish that, then logged on to let you know to find you had already figured it out.  ;D  Strangely I have seen an article some time ago about fitting a 500T engine into a bomber. They said it went straight in without any other modifications, must be eating drive chains. Unfortunately I won the auction last night so we probably now have yet another useless rear hub, only cost £26 including postage so not too bad. You never know it may be a bomber hub, not.
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC (Bastard tried to burn me to death last night)
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2019, 10:13:42 AM »
I just checked and the K1 5-Sp hub and CB500T rear hubs are both ---292--- part numbers. Original was -000 but superseded to -010 500T part. for K1
You are correct Ash. They moved the sprocket over at the beginning of the 5 speed. Just taken me 2 hours to establish that, then logged on to let you know to find you had already figured it out.  ;D  Strangely I have seen an article some time ago about fitting a 500T engine into a bomber. They said it went straight in without any other modifications, must be eating drive chains. Unfortunately I won the auction last night so we probably now have yet another useless rear hub, only cost £26 including postage so not too bad. You never know it may be a bomber hub, not.

Sean may have one for you possibly? ... Decided that one of the ones I have (not photod and still at my stash) has such a tiny crack I think Trigger is correct and it's been done when the cush drive has been pushed in. Think I will just use it on mine after Trigger has looked at it.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 10:15:48 AM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2019, 11:04:22 AM »
Trigger may be correct about the cush drives being pressed in and causing the cracks, but don't forget that's the very region that takes all the drive and in the direction of the cracks. Any crack there is going to worsen with use, does that make sense. I think mines a bit too cracked for risking welding. Arch Stanton at Garstang has offered me a set if they aren't too expensive. Who's Sean?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 11:06:27 AM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC (Bastard tried to burn me to death last night)
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)

Offline mick

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2019, 12:02:34 PM »
Hi Roy Arch Stanton & Sean are the same person :-), cheers Mick.

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #98 on: December 01, 2019, 12:52:08 PM »
Hi Roy Arch Stanton & Sean are the same person :-), cheers Mick.
Ha. Well I never.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC (Bastard tried to burn me to death last night)
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)

Offline mattsz

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2019, 03:11:41 PM »
Hi Roy Arch Stanton & Sean are the same person :-), cheers Mick.
Ha. Well I never.

Love this forum - it's a wealth of information!   ;)

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #100 on: December 02, 2019, 08:45:54 AM »
Hi Roy Arch Stanton & Sean are the same person :-), cheers Mick.
Ha. Well I never.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

Sorry Roy .. I should have been more specific...just like to call members by their proper names when I can ... a seeming  impossibility with Hairygit though ... I reckon he's called Rumpelstiltskin  ;D ;D

Any news on the hubs from Sean? ... You are still welcome to a free slightly cracked one ... I reckon yours is far worse than the 3 I have. Feedback from Facebook group is that unless crack goes through hub it will be OK and there are lots out there being used that have slight cracking ... not that I am happy with that or agree but just reporting back from another group.
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #101 on: December 04, 2019, 07:10:08 AM »
Sean is popping round on Saturday morning with some bits so I shall know better then. He says there is one very small crack in his hub so will probably go with that. The one I have is going in the scrap bin it's so badly cracked, I wouldn't use it nor do I want anyone else using it. Not bad really, out of the entire back wheel I have a brake plate, axle, and spacers left. That's what you get with a 53 year old bike I guess.
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC (Bastard tried to burn me to death last night)
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)

Offline K2-K6

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #102 on: December 04, 2019, 07:56:50 AM »
Hi Roy Arch Stanton & Sean are the same person :-), cheers Mick.
Ha. Well I never.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

Sorry Roy .. I should have been more specific...just like to call members by their proper names when I can ... a seeming  impossibility with Hairygit though ... I reckon he's called Rumpelstiltskin  ;D ;D

Any news on the hubs from Sean? ... You are still welcome to a free slightly cracked one ... I reckon yours is far worse than the 3 I have. Feedback from Facebook group is that unless crack goes through hub it will be OK and there are lots out there being used that have slight cracking ... not that I am happy with that or agree but just reporting back from another group.

You're probably right about usage there Ash.  Given that so many observed here display it then it's likely that most of them are in similar state from usage.

They look like they survive as the loads are separated for different functions and preventing the cracks from propagating further than exhibited.  The sprocket and chain load is going directly in through the bearing housing from it's spigot ultimately directly to be supported by the wheel spindle,  so avoiding the cracks.  The brake liner also misses the load path as torque is enacted outside of the cracked site and directly into the spokes.
Leaving just the drive to go through the cush drive sites,  even that is "self supporting" to reasonable level as all the bolts flanges to the sprocket keep the load into the cush drive rubbers effectively in the same plane rather than the rubbers having to accommodate anything outside perpendicular to the sprocket face.

Cracks are never going to look competent,  but as most of the wheels haven't broken it seems the design does ultimately cope with what it's doing.

Offline royhall

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2019, 08:13:40 AM »
I don't have a picture unfortunately as it just wouldn't show it. I cleaned the outside of the hub for a look and one of the cracks has gone right through to the outer face. If that propagates suddenly it would literally split the hub in two as there is also a serious crack to the boss opposite. That hub is going to the scrap bin.
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC (Bastard tried to burn me to death last night)
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)

Offline K2-K6

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Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2019, 11:28:23 AM »
I can see your point Roy,  don't think anyone would volunteer to be involved in a wheel collapse during use.

From an integrity point of view,  it would seem that many examples could be heading for "exhibition use" only given what you and Ash are finding.

If they modded the CB500 production to better protect against initiation and propogation of those cracks,  could you machine the brake plate outer by the dimension of the additional sprocket offset,  and so move the hub over to align the sprocket correctly?  Then make a bespoke spacer for sprocket side to reinstate overall dimensions,  finally lace the rim up offset to correct chassis alignment.

I worked at a place that ran an aircraft with a cracked main wingspar,  this was in the section that passed through the fuselage centre. They had applied strain guages to monitor if the crack was getting worse as part of pre-flight inspections  :D

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Think it was this one from memory, a Vickers Varsity.