550 K1 : up-shifting issues (mostly low RPMs)

[Erny]

Clutch cable is new (OEM), operates perfect as far I can say (compare to any other Honda I know).

[Erny]

I just realised that I never introduced myself here on the forum (joined 1 year ago) - I appologize for that . I think now it is too late
So at least here are 2 pics showing my 550. Someone maybe recognize her, it comes from one well known forum member here

[JamesH]

She’s a beauty Erny. Definitely in the right hands now. Great photos.

[Erny]

Thanks James! And also for all support provided! 

[paul G]

Great looking bike 

[matthewmosse]

That is a sweet looking bike.

[Erny]

Coming back to this topic - is there reliable way how to ensure issue comes from bent/work shifting fork or other issue that will force me to split cases?
I want to go maximum avoiding that.

Just thinking, maybe inspection camera?

[Bryanj]

Unfortunately not, the tips of the selectors is where you will see wear and they are hidden in the grooves of the gears so not visible till removed, if poor selection is only one way i would suspect mechanism more than selectors.

[K2-K6]

Thinking further about this, it's worth splitting down what happens inside to give a better picture of the problem.

I can quite understand not wanting to split a factory built motor,  it's nice to have something very original.

To make a statement of the problem :- the second gear engagement dogs are either not fully in position when applying torque through the gearbox or the dogs themselves are worn rounded at their edges, both of which can force the gear back out of engagement and give that false neutral.

Discount the worn dogs for now,  just set aside as they shouldn't at that mileage be compromised.

Positioning is achieved by completing the selector drum rotation until it locates the drum in its detent.  At that point the gear should be fully engaged.  If you don't fully rotate the selector drum the gear is left partly in full engagement,  resulting in the gear being forced back out when you apply throttle.
This would be either something wrong with the mechanism that rotates the drum,  or the detent that should hold it where you left it after moving the lever.
The operation of this can be inspected after removing the clutch on this engine, without removing or splitting the engine. But you need to make sure that your foot is moving the lever fully when changing up to second to ensure you are not missing something simple here before going inside to inspect.

If the selector drum completes it's rotation and is held by detent but the gear still spits out under load,  then it would point to more internal parts that would need a split.

A road test like this will help seperate the two areas :- get out and up to third gear,  then change down into second,  now leaving it in second gear use full throttle to accelerate,  don't change any gears now,  shut the throttle and let speed come down again, now repeat.  You need to be quite violent in doing this in second gear and then go further by opening and shutting the throttle in quick succession. 
What you are testing for is the correct position of second gear location under more extreme loading.  It shoukd not pop out of gear if you subject it to this as you are testing both the forward and reverse torque capacity of that gear set.  It should just stay in that gear without question.
If this checks out ok,  it shows the ability of that gear to operate correctly,  confirming that the gear is placed fully and it's dogs are in good condition.

It's quite possible for low mileage gearboxes that have been used very gently to be obstructive,  which is probably move related to the machining quality on the shift drum. If that's the case,  then very close attention to placing the gearlever as close to your foot as possible will definitely help you.  The change from 1st through neutral to 2nd is the longest travel required on these bikes.  If you don't make full and positive travel right at the end of the movement it can leave the selector drum short of its detent position.

The clutch on bikes makes almost no difference to gearchange operation,  unlike a car they can be helped by not pulling the clutch all the way in,  as John mentioned earlier.

All of them should change without clutch at all if the throttle is well set up to allow rider to accurately control torque.

[Erny]

Thanks for the feedback

I did road test many times already when riding in my favorite  track (uphill, many curves) - so full trottle, shut, full again on 2nd gear many times (believe me I was violent enough) no single issue, 2nd stayed engaged all the time. And as I said before, shifting on higher rpms is all ok.

Concerning lever travel - fact is that I dont have dot on shaft to know exalt position of lever (on lever dot is clearly visible), so I set to my best guess. Not sure if eventual shift by 1 tooth can cause this.

It simply behaves the way when i shift up that I feel something blocking lever to go up more. Either I keep it lifted all possible way up longer and it enegages (lever moves more up) or release it and do second lift to engage it correctly.

I'll open clutch anyway to check it.

Practical question here - is it enough to lay bike on left side to avoid draining oil?

[Nurse Julie]

If the lever is out by one or more notch upwards on the spline, the lever can easily foul on the casing when changing up through the gears. Because there is not enough room for complete upward travel of the lever, it may not be engaging the gears correctly at first lift of the lever. As a simple experiment, remove lever from shaft, position lever nearer the ground on the spline and see if it makes any difference. It will may not feel a comfortable position for your foot but, temporarily, it is worth a try. Not sure why you haven't got dot on end of shift though, most strange.

[Johnwebley]

Try changing gear without using the clutch. Just briefly ease the throttle as you move the lever.
Try to move it all way. As far as the lever will go.
Ideally wear a pair of light shoes so you can feel the engagement.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[K2-K6]

Practical question here - is it enough to lay bike on left side to avoid draining oil?

Yes ok if you need to look in there.  Make sure your battery is spill proof or remove it before doing this to prevent acid leaking.

You can use an old car tire with a clean sheet or similar to lay it on,  remove side panel etc to avoid damage.

I set my gear lever currently for bike boots with a patch on them, but if I go out with just trainers I can get false neutral there from them not reaching as high. It's only a small difference but it shows with a false neutral if I don't concentrate.

It is a slightly cumbersome action of rotary motion (selector drum) converted to linear action (movement of selector fork) a bit like a very big nut and bolt as they move.  It's a wonder they work as smoothly as they do generally.

If its staying gear under full loading it does suggest that the selectors,  dogs etc are all OK and avoid any need to split the engine.

[Erny]

If the lever is out by one or more notch upwards on the spline, the lever can easily foul on the casing when changing up through the gears. Because there is not enough room for complete upward travel of the lever, it may not be engaging the gears correctly at first lift of the lever. As a simple experiment, remove lever from shaft, position lever nearer the ground on the spline and see if it makes any difference. It will may not feel a comfortable position for your foot but, temporarily, it is worth a try. Not sure why you haven't got dot on end of shift though, most strange.

Julie not sure if I understand you - I do not see how lever can foul on the casing...
Found pic before I disassembled lever (but not sure if it was correct as there is missing dot on shaft and not sure if shifting was working fine as I did not tested it enough ) and after - how it is now. You can see I put it lower then it was.

To me it is just shaft with notches that allows in principe lever to be adjusted according rider's preference so shall not normally create such issue.

Maybe if someone has pic showing proper lever position on the shaft - I can test it.

[Nurse Julie]

Haha, yes Erny, you will not understand me because I am remembering another bike where the lever touched the casing 🙄🙄🙄 Are you sure there is not a dot there, it may be so small an not even look like a dot but it must be there somewhere. I cannot increase size if your photos to see properly though.