Author Topic: 1978 Honda CB550 Supersport - My first retro bike rolling restoration!  (Read 13740 times)

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To cut through the shell marketing bullox,  those two are more or less the same spec as each other.

They both meet diesel rating of CF too.

The statement for the shell " uses both mineral and synthetic base stock" is more or less there to justify a higher price.

Neirher should give a problem,  bulk is significantly cheaper to by if you're going to use the quantity.

Offline woody928

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To cut through the shell marketing bullox,  those two are more or less the same spec as each other.

They both meet diesel rating of CF too.

The statement for the shell " uses both mineral and synthetic base stock" is more or less there to justify a higher price.

Neirher should give a problem,  bulk is significantly cheaper to by if you're going to use the quantity.

So I'm still ok to use the shell oil and don't need to rush off to the shops then? Long term it would certainly make sense for me to invest in a larger quantity supply, good point well presented!

Just seen that you're in Wimbledon, you must only be about 15-20 mins up the road from me in Hinchley Wood. Do you get out on your bike often? It would be great to compare notes with some other owners and kick tyres at some point.

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I'd be comfortable using that in a Honda bike engine,  although realise that opinions can vary considerably on such a subject  :D

"Shell Helix HX7 10W-40 - 5Ltr
Shell Helix HX7 with its unique cleansing technology, goes on cleansing and protecting to help keep your engine clean and running efficiently. Formulated with synthetic technology, Shell Helix HX7 makes use of both synthetic and mineral base stocks to achieve higher performance levels than can be formulated from mineral oils alone. It provides excellent resistance to degradation to help maintain protection throughout the oil-drain interval. It also helps to reduce evaporation to help provide low oil consumption"

That part about "synthetic technology " is really kind of code for it's not really synthetic at all  ;D

It's a basic good quality,  correct viscosity oil that's suitable.  Better I'd not make it too much of an oil thread I suppose.

Location,  yes we're often around and passing you not so many times as I'd like on the bike though.  I usually stop by Newlands corner if near for a bike fix though on a weekend.
I'm fine to meet up though for a general natter about these old bikes,  or help / assistance if you needed to get heads together on anything. It's good seeing them out and running well.

Offline woody928

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I'd be comfortable using that in a Honda bike engine,  although realise that opinions can vary considerably on such a subject  :D

"Shell Helix HX7 10W-40 - 5Ltr
Shell Helix HX7 with its unique cleansing technology, goes on cleansing and protecting to help keep your engine clean and running efficiently. Formulated with synthetic technology, Shell Helix HX7 makes use of both synthetic and mineral base stocks to achieve higher performance levels than can be formulated from mineral oils alone. It provides excellent resistance to degradation to help maintain protection throughout the oil-drain interval. It also helps to reduce evaporation to help provide low oil consumption"

That part about "synthetic technology " is really kind of code for it's not really synthetic at all  ;D

It's a basic good quality,  correct viscosity oil that's suitable.  Better I'd not make it too much of an oil thread I suppose.

Location,  yes we're often around and passing you not so many times as I'd like on the bike though.  I usually stop by Newlands corner if near for a bike fix though on a weekend.
I'm fine to meet up though for a general natter about these old bikes,  or help / assistance if you needed to get heads together on anything. It's good seeing them out and running well.

There's always opinions on everything, you've made me stop doubting myself though so thank you. It's going in when I get to it.

It seems we're never out on two wheels quite as much as we'd like. I was up at Newlands corner a couple of times when training for my license however I'm yet to get up there on my own two wheels. Hopefully when its all done and more acceptable then I can say hello up there! 

Be careful, I may well take you up on that :) I'm sure I'll hit some headaches when it comes to carb tuning as smooth running as that really isn't my forte. I'm keeping fingers crossed that my missing ignition components turn up this week to allow me to crack on with next weekend.

On the note of ignition components I'm replacing the coils. I know that when sitting on the bike, the left coil goes to cylinders 1 & 4 and the right coil goes to cylinders 2 & 3 however does it matter which wire goes to which cylinder from the respective coil?

I know on cars it matters which HT lead goes to which cylinder but am imagining its not critical on the bike given its coming from a coil instead? Please correct me if my assumption is incorrect as I don't wish to go cutting leads to size only to get it wrong...

Offline woody928

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So long as the leads go to either cylinder 1 or 4 and that's from the 1-4 coil then no, same applies to the 2-3 coil, either lead to either 2 or 3. You may find however that one lead will reach and the other may not, if either reach I'd advise not to trim them unless the lead is really long, you can always cut away but you can't add.  Honda use what's called a wasted spark system so both lead will fire when the points open not just one like a car.

Any sign of the points plate and switch yet Woody, I have the tracking receipt in my pocket and I want to know if I can throw it.

Thanks for confirming Ken, that keeps things nice and simple! I must admit that I'd intended to cut them just to tidy things up however I do see the argument for just stashing the extra lead away. Interesting, its amazing how things are very similar but very different. It continues to be a learning curve! New screws and connections are now here so I'm hoping to get those plumbed in and the plugs changed this week.

I was pleased to find your parcel when I got home this evening along with my new condensers rather conveniently. The packaging was mega thank you, and the handlebar switch is in superb condition for its age! That will make quite the difference once its been installed, I'm just naively hoping to find all of the original connections still in place to hook it all up. Thank you very much for this.

I'm hoping that this week I'll be cracking on with the ignition and carbs in anger so stay tuned for some updates. 

Offline woody928

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Pretty sure the loom connections will be fine, there are in a small box just below the coils, watch the screw holding the lid on, it rounds off for fun if your not careful. Drop some grease on the threads when you refit it.

Considering the parcel was posted first class signed for that's not good service from the PO, should have been with you well before that.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed! I know the one, its been out to give me access to the coils which have now been replaced and  the new cables rerouted. Fortunately mine has come out ok, I'll certainly give it some TLC though. It looks like the weather is finally going to give me a break this  weekend so I can finally get cracking so hopefully some positive updates to follow. 

You're parcel wasn't the only one delayed through RM, they're clearly struggling but thankfully it arrived safe!

Offline woody928

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Well its fair to say its been a very busy weekend and finally some serious progress made.

The new coils have been fitted up and replaced, two spark plugs replaced (I'm waiting on a thin-wall socket to get to the other two), refurbed points plate fitted up and static timing set. I tried to adjust the cam chain tensioner and followed all of the steps however the adjuster when loosened didn't really seem to snap back when turned using a flat head screwdriver. That one seemed very odd so I just nipped it back up and got the bike running to check how we were running and I've back to firing on all four cylinders and sounding a little healthier albeit clearly with serious fuelling issues.

With this done it was time to get cracking and get the carbs out and stripped to be rebuilt. Fuelling is clearly a big issue to running as when the  engine is revved there's all kinds of confusion and hesitation with revs rising and falling of their own accord. Getting the carbs out  proved simple enough however it's clear that all of the jubilee style fasteners used are well past their best. More rounded screw heads and very tired looking metal. I'm looking to replace the lot with new stainless versions once I've got them measured up. If anyone has any recommendations though then I'm all ears.

IMG_8020 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8024 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8029 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

Carbs taken into the workshop and on the bench and it's been the meticulous job of totally stripping them down piece by piece and checking for wear while keeping each carb separated for reassembly. The below linked video by classic octane has been my bible, honestly Taylor is the man who's made this possible, his guidance is phenomenal!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFTOfYl5BSc

Last night I spent countless hours getting to the point that each carb was fully stripped to its bare bones. I've documented a number of screws which have seen far better days and am ordering stainless replacements so that there's new fixings where appropriate. It goes without saying that these have been stripped before, with several bodges along the way... The bottom float bowls for example each now appears to have been re-drilled and tapped with at least one securing M5 securing Allan headed bolt in place of the factory M4 JIS screws. No idea why, however now I have no choice but to go with it. 

It also appears that someone attempted some zinc plating a long time ago with very mixed results however now I'll be left with the bodies finished in raw metal form and caps and float bowls in faded zinc plate but that's the way it goes.

IMG_8050 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

The fuel could have looked a lot better, its certainly fairly dark I think. Is this due to rust from the fuel tank? Something to be looked at? I'll certainly be refilling with fresh fuel before going anywhere.

IMG_8040 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

It also comes as no surprise that all of the fuel lines were petrified and just plain dangerous in places, the years certainly haven't been kind to the fuel lines, once of which literally broke off around the jubilee clip. You do wonder when this job was last done.... I now need to ascertain the correct pipe sizes to get these ordered.

With everything stripped down I've put my new 6L Ultrasonic cleaner to good use and put each carb and its fully assembly through on a 30 minute cycle at around 65 degrees with a carb cleaner solution. Following this each carb has been individually cleaned by hand, all channels checked for clearance with compressed air to make sure there were no obstructions and all brass components polished up or wet and dry sanded in the case of the carb float pins to get them sliding through nicely again. There were some small battles with removing the needles as the screws were locked in place and needed a heavy dousing of Plus Gas to get cracked, one screw still rounded its head but still came out thankfully. My first purchase of magnetic JIS screwdrivers has honestly been worth its weight in gold, they're incredible!

At this stage I think functionally everything is as good as it can be now. I've been really impressed by the cleaning results from this, the water colour and dirt its taken off was pretty shocking!

IMG_8093 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8055 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8059 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8068 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8082 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8084 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8085 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8096 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

I noted that these tabs on both sides were bent on disassembly, I've hammered them flat again however one is now showing a hairline crack which concerns me somewhat. Any idea what these are and how crucial this tab is? I'd have no idea where to find a replacement  :-[

IMG_8062 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

Next steps are sourcing replacement items where appropriate having measured everything up. In terms of screws I've come across MrMegaPack.co.uk which seems to have a huge selection of fittings for our bikes and am putting in an order for one of their 'Megapacks' which will give me all of the commonly needed screws to hand in stock going forward.

I would be very grateful of some assistance with regards to jetting and needles as I have no idea if what I have fitted is factory or changed and whether any adjustments should be replaced. Looking at least one of the secondary jets it appears to have previously been mauled and damaged in a few areas so should at the very least be replaced.

IMG_8099 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8100 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

Currently though it was running:

98 - Main Jets
38 - Secondary Jets
273004 - Needles (needle height was set one ring down from the highest adjustment point)

I intend to keep using the stock airbox and the bike has fitted a 4-1 system with a Marshall muffler at the rear. I'd like to eventually replace this however for now its what I'll be running and need to bear in mind for my setup. Do the above size jets and needles sound correct? Should I been looking at other needles or jets?

Does anyone know where replacement jets can be sourced? At the very least one should be replaced... 

Below are the pics of where I started to where I currently stand, lots of progress made however clearly lots of work still required for reassembly and setup once all of the requisite items and sourced and refitted. Any observations or input gratefully received  :D

IMG_8105 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8107 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8110 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8116 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

IMG_8118 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

Also these are the carb needle securing screws, one of which is damaged. Is there a reason for this little spot on the top? They all have one so I can't imagine its a coincidence?

IMG_8120 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

Offline Bryanj

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Its to tell you are jis not phillips or pozi.
Good luck with the insulator clips, them must NOT  be any wider or it will cause air leaks

Offline woody928

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Its to tell you are jis not phillips or pozi.
Good luck with the insulator clips, them must NOT  be any wider or it will cause air leaks

Well you learn something new every day!

Are the insulator clips the ones which hold the carbs to the rubbers between the manifold and airbox?

Also any ideas or insight on the jetting/needles?

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Seems that currently the view is that original Kiehin jets are simply more accurate than alternative replacements. Which is highly desirable for such fine metering these carbs have to do.

If the main jet is just one that has the outside a bit tatty it would be worth filing off the sharp burr and using that with new o-rings, as oddjob indicates, to get a full working set.

The damage hasn't impacted the critical surfaces as far as I can see from your pictures.

Nice work so far,  it'll definitely pay off when running again.

Offline woody928

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Where to start  ;D ;D

98 mains and 38 pilot jets are correct for a 550F.

I presume you've ordered a set of Viton O-Rings for the carbs, they'll need Viton because the new fuel has Ethanol in it and the old style O-Rings really don't like Ethanol. Julie on here sells the kits. She also sells the figure 8 links for the vacuum adjusters.

Whoever put all that black gunk all over the main jet clearly did that because the O-Ring actually holds it in place, as they age they shrink and thus the jet starts to drop out, stupid really but it it what it is, you'll need a new main jet, shame as I just sold a set of 98 mains I'd had for years and years. According to Honda the clip on the needle should be on number 2. However they fail to say from the top or the bottom but I'd imagine it was the top. If so those are correct. Can't remember now what size those screws are holding the needle in place, might be 3mm, might even be 2mm. Have you measured one?

I've used these clips with good results,

https://www.stainlessmiddleton.co.uk/34313-hose-clamps
Extra narrow 31-51mm. Not the cheapest but really nice looking clamps, you want them tight but not too tight.

If your replacing the hoses you'll need Vitrile hosing. Just bought some for my carbs so I'll look what sizes I bought etc and let you know.

How far you go to restoring the carbs is up to you. Doing a really good job involves have some of the parts BZP plated, these include the butterfly and connecting rod etc, all the choke linkages, springs etc. Takes time and a little money and a whole lot of patience and effort but looks really nice after.

Hahaha I do have just a couple of questions...  :-[

Thanks for confirming Ken. I have already got the Viton O-Ring kit from Julie, when you say the figure of eight links are you referring to these bits as pictured below? if so then that would be mega to replace both!

IMG_8062 by Mark Woodrow, on Flickr

Just my luck that you've only just sold them! Right that makes a lot of sense, there's clearly been a bit of bodging along the way. They clearly made some efforts at fixing items such as re-tapping some of the float bowl holes... I would agree from what I've seen that they were correctly fitted per the factory settings, which is reassuring. I measured and the screws are M3 - 10mm screws, I'm trying to get stainless replacements for the lot of them from my contact.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep it saved for future reference. I actually ordered some black stainless ones which are 30-45mm which I hope will fit and be very subtle and not blingy compared with bright new stainless items. I'll wait and see.

Many thanks on the hose front, I now think the main hose has an internal diameter of 5.5mm and the smaller 3.2mm but not 100%. Shame about all the ethanol that's going into the fuel these days!

I must confess I'm not a huge fan of the whole pimped up zinc factory finish on various metal components. I know its OEM however if I was going all out then I'd just get the lot vapour blasted, I think that comes up amazing. That said, this is very much a functional rebuild rather than looking to build a show bike so I've taken them cosmetically as far as they need to go for me, for now. I just would really like them to operate smoothly and as intended so that the engine operates correctly.

Seems that currently the view is that original Kiehin jets are simply more accurate than alternative replacements. Which is highly desirable for such fine metering these carbs have to do.

If the main jet is just one that has the outside a bit tatty it would be worth filing off the sharp burr and using that with new o-rings, as oddjob indicates, to get a full working set.

The damage hasn't impacted the critical surfaces as far as I can see from your pictures.

Nice work so far,  it'll definitely pay off when running again.

Thanks for the insight, it's a shame you can't get the same quality these days. I've cleaned all of the components in the ultrasonic for 30 mins and in the case of the brass components, polished them up with the dremel so they're smooth, and blasted compressed air through to clear them. I feel they're as good as they can be now.

That's the only one that I noted with visible damage, I may have a go at cleaning it up in that case. I presume the critical parts are the central hole in the jet itself and the O ring mounts to seal the jet in correctly? So I can afford to lose a little bit of material where the damage is?

Thanks I'm certainly keeping my fingers crossed!

For reference I've called around everywhere I can think of today and I cannot find anyone selling 98 main jets to replace it with anyway so it looks like I have very little choice but to try and repair the one I have.   
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 06:22:40 PM by woody928 »

Offline Bryanj

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Ken you can get 95's from siriusconic in Canada but you gotta search for them their web search is naff, think i found them under 550

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"That's the only one that I noted with visible damage, I may have a go at cleaning it up in that case. I presume the critical parts are the central hole in the jet itself and the O ring mounts to seal the jet in correctly? So I can afford to lose a little bit of material where the damage is? "

Yes as you describe,  the o-ring keeps them in place and prevents any unmetered fuel from bypassing the jet orifice.  The burr area is ordinarily not touching much so plays no real part in their accuracy unless so severely impaired they'd not locate perpendicular to the casting.

If you struggle for any particular stainless bolts,  AHC on the old A30 in Camberley will usually hold stock of most items individually.  You can park in the road adjacent to there as it's restricted out front of shop.

Offline Rob62

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Proper job cornish IPA aldi special......my current tipple of choice  8)


 

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