Author Topic: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues  (Read 2707 times)

Offline Lobo

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Re: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2020, 01:32:53 AM »
... really enjoy the lateral thinkings - thanks all so far.

Nigel; bingo! 5 cycles of On & Off and she started 1st time, albeit a little hesitantly. What I do with this info though is the new mystery; as mentioned there are no ECU fault codes and the Engine Temp sensor resistance is spot on. I’ll now look in the parts book for any vacuum sensors and see if anything obvious there...

SumpMagnet, I’m now in touch with my solicitor wrt the unnecessary hurt and distress you’re causing me & my wallet 😂. Roller tappets Kit B on back order at £700+ plus postage to Brisbane. Holy moley. Grateful tbh that my bike is low mileage (3300) and so hopefully no damage as yet. From what I read colder climes are worse in that the issue is exacerbated by the oil not reaching temp (ie also short trips) ... and is less likely to occur where higher OATs and longer rides are the norm. (eg Oz). Anyways... er, thanks!

I bought this bike outta nowt but lust; obviously thinking with my nether regions. And true to form, it’s taking me for a ride in ways I hadn’t anticipated! Ho hum; still bloody love swinging a leg over it.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 03:23:19 AM by Lobo »

Offline Greg65

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Re: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2020, 07:58:09 AM »
I remember a guy being asked what it was like owning a Guzzi. His response was “It was like having an Italian mistress, temperamental and expensive however when it goes it goes like the clappers”.

I still lust after a Le Mans in black and gold.
Keep smiling it makes the management nervous.
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Offline Bryanj

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Re: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2020, 09:11:17 AM »
Had a V7 in the shop once, took 6 months to get a starter, same size as some car or other but it turned backwards so was a "special"

Online K2-K6

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Re: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2020, 01:08:25 PM »
At least that tells us something Simon.

May be worth a walk through to see if we can find the cause. The fuel pump can over pressure and over supply the peak injector demand on all systems like this,  it's usually modulated by a pressure relief valve that dumps fuel back to the tank, but that's not a fixed pressure.
What they do is have a spring backed control valve that (static) achieves the designed pressure of the system and keeps it at that irrespective of injector demand.  Then the spring preload can be altered with a vacuum diaphragm that reduces the spring pressure as vacuum builds in the signal tube going to the diaphragm.  That vac tube is taken off from the engine side of the throttle plates,  so that when you shut the throttle on overrun the vacuum peaks and results in a drop to the delivered fuel pressure. 
It effectively runs as a little mechanical / analogue control loop as a parallel but autonomous system to the ecu mapping.  But the ecu still has to take account of and be programmed to work with that which happens in this part of the system. 

During start sequence with throttle closed,  the ecu will give richer mixture based on temp report from engine (effectively using choke) but it should also get reduced injector pressure as the cylinders start to suck vacuum. 
The total fuel delivered should be (ecu+enrichment register amount-the drop it would get from lowered fuel pressure) so if the pressure didn't drop it would effectively give double enrichment,  and risk wetting the plugs.
It looks like the fuel regulator valve (sitting with continuos spring pressure closed)  may be initially just a bit reluctant to release and so the the planned for fuel pressure drop doesn't happen.
Those four ignition applications may just have given it a bit of a kick ( the normal regulator pressure should prompt it to open as the fuel pump is cycled from turning it on a few times) then when you go to start it the vacuum from cranking can operate it easily. 
No fuel will pass into the engine just from fuel pressure as the injectors will easily hold it. But just as the cranking starts to draw vacuum then the exercised regulator immediately drops fuel pressure to give correct start aim mixture.

The ecu won't "see" a fault code as normally exhaust Lambda sensors are ignored during initial start,  plus they mostly don't monitor fuel pressure and so won't have any idea it's wrong.

Looking at Guzzi schematic,  it seems that the order is tank,  fuel pump,  regulator assembly,  then on to injectors.  The regulator assembly has also a return to the tank to relieve pressure and vacuum operation from two pipes coming up from each intake tract to enact it's operation.

Because it starts and runs well when you've initially got it going,  that seems to confirm nothing is significantly wrong,  just that initial reluctance to modulate fuel pressure.  It is,  I suppose,  the equivalent of the carburettor float needle valve sticking and causing the mixture to be temporarily out of range.
Turning it on and off is broadly speaking the "tap" with a screwdriver handle on an old carb to free the valve  :)

Offline Green1

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Re: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2020, 02:16:51 PM »
Just a thought Simon has the bike been overfilled with oil at some point. It has to be bang in the middle of the dipstick or it has been known to fill the airbox and overtime gums up the idle control valve.

When cold does it have a slightly higher then normal idle when it is running?

Brian thats the worst thing about Italian bikes it once took me 8 months to get an oil pressure switch for my Aprillia.
fortunately when the starter motor packed up on it that was easy to find as it was the same as a Fiat Panda
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Offline taysidedragon

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Re: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2020, 02:21:40 PM »
K2K6, I need a lie down after reading all that!
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Online K2-K6

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Re: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2020, 08:49:10 PM »
K2K6, I need a lie down after reading all that!

Yep you'd probably not want to invite me to a party  ;D

Had to put my head in a fridge after that  :)

Offline taysidedragon

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Re: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2020, 10:41:41 AM »
K2K6, I need a lie down after reading all that!

Yep you'd probably not want to invite me to a party  ;D

Had to put my head in a fridge after that  :)

😂😂
Gareth

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1965 T100SS

Offline Lobo

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Re: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2020, 01:00:40 PM »
Hey Nigel,

SINCERE apologies for not replying sooner to that amazing post of yours - really appreciate you taking the time out. (I took my iPad up to the daughter’s Friday to do DIY / eBay stuff... and left it there. Dang - have been lost this weekend).

Due the loss of the iPad I also lost my Guzzi schematics, and so am shooting from the hip here when I say there’s no return to the tank to relieve pressure. ..... unless, of course, it’s all incorporated within the fuel pump unit / tank itself. (ie there is just one hose from the tank... and 3 wires to the pump unit)
Furthermore, on the Griso at least, there don’t appear to be any vacuum type sensors.

Anyways, in a hurry to reply lest you figure me rude... but will double check all you say tomorrow . Thank you.

Mick - again ta for the thoughts... I’ve serviced the bike since 1500 miles iaw the book and specs. I filled it to the FULL mark on the 3 changes I’ve done; but never seen any hint of oil in the airbox. Again though, I need to double check your suggestion with the actual machine... as for the idle I’ve never really noticed any difference between hot and cold idles.

Thanks gents... truly appreciated.
Simon
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 01:03:27 PM by Lobo »

Offline Lobo

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Re: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2020, 02:01:41 AM »
Gents... of no SOHC value... but closure at last!

So, I’m a dinosaur, and have been bought into this new century kicking and screaming.
Since last posting I’ve joined a MG forum, and learned an awful lot.
(1) MG manuals are pretty crap (2) my other forum ain’t a patch on this one - thanks Steve.
Anyways... this big lump of a machine has been ultimately cured by ‘remapping the ECU’. Nope, don’t ask me what this means, other than an incredibly frustrating afternoon with a Windows 10 Laptop (I’m Apple) and an umbilical to the ‘Guzzi uploading ECU software. Then a TPS reset (ditto - don’t ask me why)... and bingo, we’re back to starting on the button.
As I write this we’re in a BMW Dealership because my wife’s Elect i3 sunroof is refusing to close. No technical reason... it simply needs a re-initialisation ... something I can’t do at home. Apparently a battery spike can cause this, and cause (eg) the door locks to malfunction too. Roadside assist (obviously) dislike EVs I’m told. Well duh..
... so, I understandably remain a fan of the pre-computer days ...

Sumpmagnet - many thanks for your notification of Rollerised tappets - now incorporated.

Simon.

(btw, in case wondering I’m actually blown away by the EV - bloody amazing truth be told)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 02:04:43 AM by Lobo »

Offline SumpMagnet

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Re: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2020, 08:02:52 PM »
Glad you got it all sorted and running :)

Throttle Position Sensor ( TPS) is basically just telling the bikes brain where the throttle was. It had obviously forgotten. It's Italian..... and they are known the world over for their high quality electrical work...

ECU remap is again telling it how much fuel to squirt in for the revs and throttle opening you have. Unlike my old LEMans where is just dumped as much raw fuel into the inlet as it could and then decided if it would burn it or waste it. It should knoiw how much...but again...it may have forgotten.

So...basically...your bike had amnesia......
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Offline Lobo

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Re: Moto Guzzi 1200 / starting issues
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2020, 11:41:35 PM »
... ah, thanks Sump Magnet. I can relate to amnesia 🙄.

Fingers crossed Moto Guzzi don’t start building aeroplanes, rockets or submarines. What could go wrong eh?

 

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