450/500T Startup

[taysidedragon]

SRM Engineering in Aberystwyth built a bench test rig for their uprated BSA oil pumps to check performance on each one. It's on one of their videos. Something like that would compare new performance to the old sloppy performance without needing to run, and risk, an engine.

[K2-K6]

After building my engine I filled it with oil and ran it with the starter motor on the bench with the cam covers off and plugs out. It took a while on the very first run to fill the centrifugal filter and oil galleries. All runs after that produced a good supply of oil which arrived at the inlet cam within seconds with oil at the exhast cam a few seconds later. I wish I could compare those bench runs to an engine with an old sloppy pump fitted. I think the pump is at least the partial culprit here. A pressure gauge would be an ideal defense.

I feel that people head the wrong way in interpretation of oil pump wear. It's often given that the oil should be thicker to perhaps stay "stuck" to the camshaft instead of draining away when turned off hot. Just a cursory look at oil when it's 90 degrees C will show that's not of any significance. 
Also oil viscosity is not protection  !! It's just system resistance.  When upping viscosity, the oil pump has to work under more duress but has no "extra" protection to prevent it wearing in this scenario. 
My understanding is that this engine would run 30 viscosity when used in temperature above 59 degree F ambient,  and 20 viscosity below that.
Has anyone got original specification for this ?
My understanding is that it would be ideal with a 0W 30 specification of modern oils to match in the best way Honda planning and intended flow rate when they made it.

It was designed with  20 and 30 viscosity tolerances hot when the R & D was carried out,  that flow rate is important in the overall design for many reasons,  most of which are never discussed within this topic.

[K2-K6]

Also, threads like this http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,24579.msg225043/topicseen.html#new and other experience of that engine, show very similar outcomes in terms of camshaft wear with nothing in common design wise to the 450 engine.

[royhall]

Surely the viscosity will not change the fact the oil pump is worn out and not supplying oil in sufficient quantities to lubricate the entire engine. The exhaust cam is the last in line to be lubricated so will fail first.

[K2-K6]

The oil pump will always have to work harder to pump a higher viscosity,  potentially putting the pump itself above intended duty cycle. 
It's an easy statement to make that the used oil pumps display of wear shows this is the case with whatever condition they've been used in, else wouldn't be worn.

Increasing the viscosity/ load on the pump just raises the sideways load on the piston as it's driven off axis by design.  Rotory pumps don't do this and will more successfully take over rating loads. 

It's one of these subjects that we quite happily a accept things like electrical design in using amps, volts, resistance etc and their interelationship, but ignore the same functionality within oil, hydraulic system.

Keeping viscosity at intended target will provide the most pace throughout the whole system,  also leaking down as Honda intended. The oil flow should increase at the camshaft as a result,  along with reduction of load at the pump's sliding surfaces. 

The shame shear load capacity exists in an oil (within reasonable comparison) for different viscosity.  The higher viscosity loads the whole system to a greater degree,  with lower/on target putting less load into the  pump components, if the higher promotes breakdown of the oil film with the lower within range,  that will wear the pump and have no system lubrication advantage.

[K2-K6]

Interesting how views can so oppose each other https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/1965-honda-cb450-black-bomber-oil-oil-filter-cleaning-technique-and-oci.35441/

The last poster is, I believe more understanding of just why honda chose what they did.

The "running cams straight in aluminium plain bearings" observation is just funny,  as literally everything has gone the same way in following Honda.  That's as outdated and with less understanding of the fundamental design as you can get.

[royhall]

Proves nothing I know but just started my engine from cold with the exhaust valve cover off. Am using 10W40 multigrade and the oil supply took a counted 4 seconds to appear. Slowly at first building up to a good supply a few seconds later to the point I stopped the engine as oil was being thrown out. That's 4 seconds not 90. I would say if it's taking 90 seconds your engine is just worn out simple as that. Where did this mythical 90 second quote come from anyway, I keep seeing it quoted.

I should add that the engine was run this morning so the galleries etc were possibly already full, but the engine was cold.

The spec for the oil states for all use 10W40 or 20W50. Then single grade as you quoted for special circumstances.

[K2-K6]

I think the same,  the oil delivery "problem" at starting appears highly inaccurate,  essentially a red herring. What it does do as you point out Roy, is almost to direct everything toward that as some ultimately to be solved problem,  almost to the exclusion of other rational thinking and engine condition.

As a disinct marker,  any camshaft showing real wear on base circle hasn't suffered from lack of oil,  but completely lack of clearance.  It's watching that like a hawk,  particularly after rebuilding that would seem the most beneficial to long life.

[royhall]

I think the same,  the oil delivery "problem" at starting appears highly inaccurate,  essentially a red herring. What it does do as you point out Roy, is almost to direct everything toward that as some ultimately to be solved problem,  almost to the exclusion of other rational thinking and engine condition.

As a disinct marker,  any camshaft showing real wear on base circle hasn't suffered from lack of oil,  but completely lack of clearance.  It's watching that like a hawk,  particularly after rebuilding that would seem the most beneficial to long life.

Couldn't agree more. I still think pump condition is a prime culprit. The pumps seem to be ignored during a rebuild as they have nothing to compare them to. When I compared my NOS pump against the worst of the other three the difference was drastic with 6 thou worn off the piston along with ovality and quite bad scoring. Now that's not going to help pressure and flow no matter what the viscosity of the oil.

[K2-K6]

I understand that the original 40 viscosity rating for multigrade was there because of ability of oil to hold on to that through a complete service interval. In effect it's a system designed for 30   and they were trying to achieve that at the end of an oil's life,  hence starting at 40 with expected decay to still make target. Newer oils, in reality, are more stable. Along with consideration for change intervals not being neglected,  and avoiding running too rich to dilute the oil,  then highest viscosity of 30 should see the best overall performance.

[royhall]

I shall bear that in mind at the next oil change.

[royhall]

Any suggestions for make of 0W30 oil for a Black Bomber. I usually use Fuchs Titan so am looking at this but it is a bit expensive. Any other ideas?

TITAN Supersyn F Eco-FE 0W-30 Engine Oil. Ford M2C950-A Diesel 0W30 Oil. 5 Litre 5031131345604 | eBay

[Bryanj]

0w30? I would have thought 10w30

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

0w30? I would have thought 10w30

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/

The above site & e bay do some giid deals as do Asda !

[royhall]

After building my engine I filled it with oil and ran it with the starter motor on the bench with the cam covers off and plugs out. It took a while on the very first run to fill the centrifugal filter and oil galleries. All runs after that produced a good supply of oil which arrived at the inlet cam within seconds with oil at the exhast cam a few seconds later. I wish I could compare those bench runs to an engine with an old sloppy pump fitted. I think the pump is at least the partial culprit here. A pressure gauge would be an ideal defense.

I feel that people head the wrong way in interpretation of oil pump wear. It's often given that the oil should be thicker to perhaps stay "stuck" to the camshaft instead of draining away when turned off hot. Just a cursory look at oil when it's 90 degrees C will show that's not of any significance. 
Also oil viscosity is not protection  !! It's just system resistance.  When upping viscosity, the oil pump has to work under more duress but has no "extra" protection to prevent it wearing in this scenario. 
My understanding is that this engine would run 30 viscosity when used in temperature above 59 degree F ambient,  and 20 viscosity below that.
Has anyone got original specification for this ?
My understanding is that it would be ideal with a 0W 30 specification of modern oils to match in the best way Honda planning and intended flow rate when they made it.

It was designed with  20 and 30 viscosity tolerances hot when the R & D was carried out,  that flow rate is important in the overall design for many reasons,  most of which are never discussed within this topic.

Just quoting this post for 0W30. Just to be clear, should I be looking at fully synthetic or semi synthetic.