Author Topic: New E10/5 fuel  (Read 1181 times)

Offline Johnwebley

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New E10/5 fuel
« on: July 03, 2020, 10:13:26 PM »
As the new petrol has added oxygen.
Do we need to enrich the mixture?

Guessing raise the needle one groove.

Maybe that is enough

Or hotter running plug.7 to an 8.

I would like comments from the clever guys.
Those far knowledgeable than me.

Thanks

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

lifelong motorcycle rider,and fan

Online Bryanj

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2020, 08:54:41 AM »
Doubt it, aparently bigger problem will be starting

Offline Johnwebley

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2020, 03:46:31 PM »
Doubt it, aparently bigger problem will be starting

  I understood  E10 is 10% biofuel,so in a litre 900cc is petrol,100cc is ethanol,
ethanol is oxygen rich,so it will help the burn,and already have 10% less petrol in the mixture

 should we consider maybe increasing the main jet? and lifting the needle one slot ?

 not to worried about the 500,but the 200 ,and my 125 RD twin both seem sencetive .

 and it looks like we loose a few horses as well,
lifelong motorcycle rider,and fan

Offline Oggie400F

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2020, 07:07:19 PM »
The attached article from the latest Honda Owners Club magazine suggests that "older engines run better on ethanol blended fuels".

However there are other the issues to consider regarding rotting of some rubbers and plastics as well as the corrosive nature on metals if any moisture is present in the fuel system.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kvwblhhg0mc9qxa/Ethanol%20Fuel%20Issues.pdf?dl=0

The article relates to a book: Classic Engines, Modern Fuel - The Problems, The Solutions.  I was interested in getting a copy to help me get to sleep 😴 but it must be popular because it appears to be sold out in all the places I've looked. 
I'm a Radiographer............I can see right through you!!

1999 VFR800 fix in Pearl Prism Black
1978 CB750F1 in Candy Presto Red
1976 CB550F Supersport Brat Bike in Black
1976 CB400F in Varnish Blue - project bike in many bits.

Offline gtmdriver

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2020, 07:53:28 AM »
I am the Technical Editor for Complete Kitcar Magazine and a few years ago I researched and wrote an article n the problems and solutions for the E5 fuel which was just being introduced at the time. Obviously with the introduction of E10 fuel these problems will be exacerbated.

There will be a slight weakening effect due to the extra oxygen included in the fuel mix but at 10% ethanol the standard settings should still be OK. The bigger problems are the corrosive effects of the oxidation and hydration products of the ethanol on metals and the way it attacks the elastomers in the O rings and flexible fuel lines. These effects will be even worse in vehicles stored for longer periods of time.

The FHVBC, at around the same time, did some independent research into the commercial fuel additives supposed to combat the harmful effects of the ethanol on the metallic components. Not surprisingly many of them were completely ineffective but they did find a handful that worked. This information is still available on their website.

Personally I use Ethomix from Frost Restoration and I drain the fuel system before I lay my bike up for the winter. These additives only protect the metal parts so you also need to look for biofuel compatible rubber hoses too.

Offline K2-K6

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2020, 11:46:39 AM »
As the new petrol has added oxygen.
Do we need to enrich the mixture?

Guessing raise the needle one groove.

Maybe that is enough

Or hotter running plug.7 to an 8.

I would like comments from the clever guys.
Those far knowledgeable than me.

Thanks

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

To comment on the mixture specifically;-  Working with AFR (air fuel ratio) to hopefully give a concise view,  petrol without the additional ethanol has a stoichiometric ratio (complete combustion of all fuel by ratio to air mix) of 14.7 to 1 , after which point there's too much air to match the fuel content.  Most engines of the era we are concerned with don't run anywhere near that figure,  more usually the standard jetting is more like 12.5 to 1 and richer than ideal. 
E10 fuel has an equivalent of 14.04 to 1 taking into account the mix of components.  The mixture if just left alone clearly now has a position closer to the stoichiometric value ( effectively making the combustion process leaner with this fuel). 
A pragmatic approach is that the shift is just under 5%, and as the original factory jetting was running effectively too rich constantly, it's realistic to consider this as a desirable shift.  It shouldn't, if the original setup is competent, give us any problems. But if you are concerned about it, a shift of one notch on the main jet needle could be assessed.

I though favour changing the spark plug heat range by going upwards one (ngk numbering) so 7 to 8. I don't do this because of conventional reasons of "running hotter" that is often inaccurate when used to suggest this.
I view it as the small resultant changes in effective jetting run a cleaner combustion process, and so reduces the demand for trying to keep the plug tip hot enough to make sure it doesn't foul.

In other words,  you can take advantage of the change if effective fuel ratio and run the combustion closer to optimum.

An advantage of running a higher heat range plug is that it's more resistant to any affects of detonation (loss of control of the burn phase) and reduces the overall risk to the engine of consequence associated with this.

I've been doing this with an old car engine for some years which we've used in France, and commonly on E10 without any problem. Closely related in metallurgical terms to these bikes ( all aluminium construction with pushed in steel barrels,  two valve per cylinder,  offset spark plug,  9.35 to 1 compression etc) and as some of the linked comments suggest,  it does run more efficiently on this fuel. General setup has been good for measured emmisions too whether E10 or not.

Offline Oggie400F

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2020, 03:28:12 PM »
Personally I use Ethomix from Frost Restoration and I drain the fuel system before I lay my bike up for the winter. These additives only protect the metal parts so you also need to look for biofuel compatible rubber hoses too.

Interesting comments and I bow to both your and K2-K6’s knowledge and expertise.

I’ve ordered some Ethomix to give it a try. The description suggests that this is a good additive to combat the corrosive effects of Ethanol in fuel and it’s reassuring to know that it is endorsed by the FBHVC.
Do you know what biofuel compatible hose materials, apart from Viton, would be recommended and are readily available?

Ian
I'm a Radiographer............I can see right through you!!

1999 VFR800 fix in Pearl Prism Black
1978 CB750F1 in Candy Presto Red
1976 CB550F Supersport Brat Bike in Black
1976 CB400F in Varnish Blue - project bike in many bits.

Offline Tomb

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2020, 03:28:58 PM »


To comment on the mixture specifically;-  Working with AFR (air fuel ratio) to hopefully give a concise view,  petrol without the additional ethanol has a stoichiometric ratio (complete combustion of all fuel by ratio to air mix) of 14.7 to 1 , after which point there's too much air to match the fuel content.  Most engines of the era we are concerned with don't run anywhere near that figure,  more usually the standard jetting is more like 12.5 to 1 and richer than ideal. 
E10 fuel has an equivalent of 14.04 to 1 taking into account the mix of components.  The mixture if just left alone clearly now has a position closer to the stoichiometric value ( effectively making the combustion process leaner with this fuel). 
A pragmatic approach is that the shift is just under 5%, and as the original factory jetting was running effectively too rich constantly, it's realistic to consider this as a desirable shift.  It shouldn't, if the original setup is competent, give us any problems. But if you are concerned about it, a shift of one notch on the main jet needle could be assessed.

I though favour changing the spark plug heat range by going upwards one (ngk numbering) so 7 to 8. I don't do this because of conventional reasons of "running hotter" that is often inaccurate when used to suggest this.
I view it as the small resultant changes in effective jetting run a cleaner combustion process, and so reduces the demand for trying to keep the plug tip hot enough to make sure it doesn't foul.

In other words,  you can take advantage of the change if effective fuel ratio and run the combustion closer to optimum.

An advantage of running a higher heat range plug is that it's more resistant to any affects of detonation (loss of control of the burn phase) and reduces the overall risk to the engine of consequence associated with this.

I've been doing this with an old car engine for some years which we've used in France, and commonly on E10 without any problem. Closely related in metallurgical terms to these bikes ( all aluminium construction with pushed in steel barrels,  two valve per cylinder,  offset spark plug,  9.35 to 1 compression etc) and as some of the linked comments suggest,  it does run more efficiently on this fuel. General setup has been good for measured emmisions too whether E10 or not.


An excellent explaination, thank you. My experiences echo this, I've toured Europe for years and used the E10 fuel as soon as it was introduced over there on my 40 year old bikes, with no detrimental effect to running. There is the obvious corrosion effects but the question was mixture/fueling.
The one thing I have found over the 35 years of running my old bikes, from when they were not my old bikes, they were new, is the fuel consumption has steadily gone up with miles (104,000 on one and 86,000 on another). This obviously means mixture has slowly got richer as carbs have worn, so the E10 fuel has definitely made them run better.
The rich mixture is so bad on one bike I am now changing carbs and refurbing the originals.

My point is, as above, I think most old bikes will have the same issue as mine, rich running, so E10 fuel will be ok.
Tom
'73 CB550 with CB500 engine café racer
'62 CB77 Sprinter
'70 CD175
'78 CB550 with sidecar
'80 Z50R
And a load of old Yamaha 1100's

Offline gtmdriver

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2020, 05:16:15 PM »

Offline Rob62

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2020, 06:59:38 PM »
Personally I avoid regular fuel like the plague.... premium fuel for your classic is the easiest way to avoid 10% ethanol.....for the time being at least.

Offline SteveW

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2020, 07:34:14 PM »
I have just had to replace the fuel lines on my 550, they have lasted just over 2 and a half years. That is around 1200 miles.

The lines had disintegrated into a slimy sticky mess with chunks breaking off. This is bog standard fuel line bought from local motor factors.
I’ve used it dozens of times over the years on classic cars and bikes without any issues at all.

Also I always turn my fuel tap off about 1/4 mile from my house. I’ve got it down to a fine art now so the bike dies as I get into the drive, so there should not be any fuel sitting in the lines but they have still gone bad.
1974 CB550 K0
2000 CBR929RR Fireblade
1966 Lambretta LI150 Series 3
1981 RD350LC
1972 Raleigh Chopper
1974 Raleigh Tomahawk
2011 Henry Hoover

Offline Rob62

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2020, 07:54:01 PM »
Very odd...modern fuel line should withstand modern fuel.... :o

Offline 71 V12

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2020, 06:36:59 PM »
Personally I avoid regular fuel like the plague.... premium fuel for your classic is the easiest way to avoid 10% ethanol.....for the time being at least.

Fully agree. Ethanol fuel is Hygroscopic and will lead to internal corrosion of old steel fuel tanks. I assume modern fuel tanks have corrosion proof finish, perhaps zinc to avoid this issue with ethanol.

Offline gtmdriver

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2020, 07:43:40 AM »

Offline SteveW

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Re: New E10/5 fuel
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2020, 11:46:49 AM »
Brass and Aluminium listed as not suitable?
So as well as fuel lines, rubber and plastic parts failing the carbs themselves may take a hammering?
1974 CB550 K0
2000 CBR929RR Fireblade
1966 Lambretta LI150 Series 3
1981 RD350LC
1972 Raleigh Chopper
1974 Raleigh Tomahawk
2011 Henry Hoover

 

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