Author Topic: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.  (Read 45802 times)

Offline McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #135 on: February 03, 2021, 01:10:37 PM »
So this morning as Wendy was working a double shift to book Covid19 jabs at the surgury I decided to look at doing some light easy jobs   prior to engine removal. Safe in the knowledge that I would not be "found out" I decided to start with undoing the cylinder head bolts.

I had wories about super tight bolts etc so began loosening in sequence as per my manual  - to my surprise they have all come undone without any issues. I haven't looked up the normal torque settings but most of them were around 10-15 lb ft maximum some were almost finger tight it was that easy.

As I have no plans so far to split the engine case just remove the head & cylinder bores am wondering if it's best to tie up the cam chain and replace it when rebuilding as I am fearful that if I take the cam chain off completely now feeding in a new one will be impossible.

This is all a bit unknown as I might have to split the casing to replace the drive chain eventually anyway. Any advice is welcome.

Honda CB500 K1 (new pit dug out ready)
Honda CB400 four super sport (first money pit)
Link to my full restoration http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,23291.0.html

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #136 on: February 03, 2021, 01:19:21 PM »
As you suspect,  chain is endless so needing to split cases to slide a new one onto crank is unavoidable.

It's very low risk if you drop the chain inside,  just don't rotate the crankshaft until you've fished it out again.

Retiming is easy on these,  with the top off the rockers are removed making no interference with valves and pistons possible.  You can rotate the crank and camshaft till the cows come home to check you've got it set right.  Only then do you put the rockers in their cover back on to "activate" the valves. 

Worthwhile checking with the cam cover off for chain wear though.  Give it a lift at higher most point to see if the links lift away from the sprocket. It should have very little slack at that point.

Offline McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #137 on: February 03, 2021, 02:34:29 PM »
As you suspect,  chain is endless so needing to split cases to slide a new one onto crank is unavoidable.

It's very low risk if you drop the chain inside,  just don't rotate the crankshaft until you've fished it out again.

Retiming is easy on these,  with the top off the rockers are removed making no interference with valves and pistons possible.  You can rotate the crank and camshaft till the cows come home to check you've got it set right.  Only then do you put the rockers in their cover back on to "activate" the valves. 

Worthwhile checking with the cam cover off for chain wear though.  Give it a lift at higher most point to see if the links lift away from the sprocket. It should have very little slack at that point.

My bike purchase came with a new timing chain supplied but it has a link so was thinking I could remove a link on the old chain then feed it through attaching the new chain ?

Maybee folk are against a split chain ?
Honda CB500 K1 (new pit dug out ready)
Honda CB400 four super sport (first money pit)
Link to my full restoration http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,23291.0.html

Offline taysidedragon

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #138 on: February 03, 2021, 03:30:21 PM »
Lots of people use the split chain for convenience.  The disadvantages are not being as secure as an endless chain and not able to check the cam chain tensioner operation.
If the primary chain has never been changed it probably needs doing now.
Gareth

1977 CB400F
1965 T100SS

Offline McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #139 on: February 03, 2021, 03:54:12 PM »
Lots of people use the split chain for convenience.  The disadvantages are not being as secure as an endless chain and not able to check the cam chain tensioner operation.
If the primary chain has never been changed it probably needs doing now.

It's done around 32k miles I'm guessing the drive chain is original.

Don't understand why checking the cam chain tensioner operation is an issue with a split chain ?
Honda CB500 K1 (new pit dug out ready)
Honda CB400 four super sport (first money pit)
Link to my full restoration http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,23291.0.html

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #140 on: February 03, 2021, 04:51:45 PM »
Some of the older (than this) engines routinely use a joined chain, although I believe with a specific tool to set them. Illustrative of potential if they're ok.

I'm fine with hand peening to join things like final drive and mtb chains etc with no reliability problems.  But, possibly irrationally, I still would choose continuous for cam chains as failure in any significant way will just make you weep with the distruction.

Depends also how you look at the task of splitting to replace. I feel that's easier to contemplate than the thought of distruction  :) and would thoroughly clean the outside first if you are not going for a complete strip. It's really just taking the bottom case off and undoing the rods,  lift out crank and swap chains, then torque it back together.

At those miles the primary will usually need replacement too, with the two contributing to how these engines sound when running well more than most components. 

I suppose I don't look at changing them whole as a chore,  more that I feel it's nice to work on them.

Julie's thread on rebuilding gives a very good look at making sure the tensioner works correctly if you've not already seen it.

Offline McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #141 on: February 03, 2021, 05:03:23 PM »
Some of the older (than this) engines routinely use a joined chain, although I believe with a specific tool to set them. Illustrative of potential if they're ok.

I'm fine with hand peening to join things like final drive and mtb chains etc with no reliability problems.  But, possibly irrationally, I still would choose continuous for cam chains as failure in any significant way will just make you weep with the distruction.

Depends also how you look at the task of splitting to replace. I feel that's easier to contemplate than the thought of distruction  :) and would thoroughly clean the outside first if you are not going for a complete strip. It's really just taking the bottom case off and undoing the rods,  lift out crank and swap chains, then torque it back together.

At those miles the primary will usually need replacement too, with the two contributing to how these engines sound when running well more than most components. 

I suppose I don't look at changing them whole as a chore,  more that I feel it's nice to work on them.

Julie's thread on rebuilding gives a very good look at making sure the tensioner works correctly if you've not already seen it.

tbh I share worries about a chain with a split link so realistically I will split the casing and change both chains.

At present the cylinder head does not want to lift off as the cyliner block is lifting instead.

What's the best way to seperate the head from the block without damaging any fins ?
Honda CB500 K1 (new pit dug out ready)
Honda CB400 four super sport (first money pit)
Link to my full restoration http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,23291.0.html

Offline smoothoperator

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #142 on: February 03, 2021, 05:12:01 PM »
Hi Ted, glad to hear your'e back on the bike! If you do choose to join the chain, have a look at mine to see how it came out. Having split my engine I can see the cases haven't been split before but the cam chain has been replaced. The image shows how badly it was done. My tensioner arm is also completely seized, however I think your engine is in better condition especially so if you were able to adjust the tension or didn't have a rattle in the first place.
Steve
2017 Triumph Bonneville T100
1977 Honda 400 Four Restored April 2022

Offline McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #143 on: February 03, 2021, 05:35:36 PM »
Hi Ted, glad to hear your'e back on the bike! If you do choose to join the chain, have a look at mine to see how it came out. Having split my engine I can see the cases haven't been split before but the cam chain has been replaced. The image shows how badly it was done. My tensioner arm is also completely seized, however I think your engine is in better condition especially so if you were able to adjust the tension or didn't have a rattle in the first place.

Not the best riveting Iv'e seen did you fit a split link or endless replacement?
Honda CB500 K1 (new pit dug out ready)
Honda CB400 four super sport (first money pit)
Link to my full restoration http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,23291.0.html

Offline smoothoperator

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #144 on: February 03, 2021, 05:44:16 PM »
I'm a fair way off putting it all back together yet Ted but I'll be fitting an endless chain.
Steve
2017 Triumph Bonneville T100
1977 Honda 400 Four Restored April 2022

Offline Johnwebley

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #145 on: February 03, 2021, 05:47:52 PM »
The mechanics locally fit the cam chain and rivet it to endless

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Offline McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #146 on: February 03, 2021, 06:11:19 PM »
The mechanics locally fit the cam chain and rivet it to endless

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So clearly they are not a fan of the  split link arrangement - might be clearance worries.
Honda CB500 K1 (new pit dug out ready)
Honda CB400 four super sport (first money pit)
Link to my full restoration http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,23291.0.html

Offline Johnwebley

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #147 on: February 03, 2021, 06:17:53 PM »
I think it is more a stress thing.

Maybe worried the clip will become loose and fall off.



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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #148 on: February 03, 2021, 06:39:57 PM »
"What's the best way to seperate the head from the block without damaging any fins ?"

You can try (if you've got something like the big flat tire levers) to carefully push that in to the root of the fins right by the gasket surface at each end, and gently twist them,  not try to lever.  It at least assessess (is that correct with more ss's than Mississippi? ) if it's going to move or be more reluctant.

Once the gasket seal starts to come apart they are usually ok. It's not to use much force but more gentle encouragement at the right location, if that makes sense.

Offline McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

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Re: OAP Ted's CB400F2 rebuild - engine not run for about 12 years.
« Reply #149 on: February 04, 2021, 10:07:11 AM »
"What's the best way to seperate the head from the block without damaging any fins ?"

You can try (if you've got something like the big flat tire levers) to carefully push that in to the root of the fins right by the gasket surface at each end, and gently twist them,  not try to lever.  It at least assessess (is that correct with more ss's than Mississippi? ) if it's going to move or be more reluctant.

Once the gasket seal starts to come apart they are usually ok. It's not to use much force but more gentle encouragement at the right location, if that makes sense.

The levers sound potentially risky though clearly it has worked for you.

I'm currently in deep thought mode for my next move.
Honda CB500 K1 (new pit dug out ready)
Honda CB400 four super sport (first money pit)
Link to my full restoration http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,23291.0.html

 

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