Author Topic: Ten years to go until electric...  (Read 1394 times)

Offline paulbaker1954

  • SOHC Pro
  • Posts: 657
  • I'll just be 5 minutes dear!!
    • View Profile
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2020, 07:57:28 AM »
Personally am all for it overall but like many see this as a massively overambitousnplanndesigned to make the gov feel smug. All electric will happen eventually, after all fossil fuel,supplies are not infinite.

What worries me is what will happen to the classic vehicles, these after all are a part of our history and should be preserved for road use. Maybe we will have to hang out and night on street corners to score fuel from a neighbourhood dealer 😂😂😂

I will probably be near a box or in one by then but my son is desperate to inherit my four.

Like all gov plans all laudable but not thought through. As many have said it’s the charging infrastructure that’s the big stumbling block.

If you think there's light at the end of the tunnel it's usually another train !!

2016 Yamaha MT09 Tracer
1971 Honda CB500 Four K0

Offline sye

  • SOHC Expert
  • Posts: 284
    • View Profile
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2020, 08:00:35 AM »
My business has been running a Nissan E-NV200 electric van for five years now. It's used for local deliveries and does around 100 miles to a charge. We also have 16kw/h solar panel installation and air source heat pumps. The 3-phase charger charges the van in around 3 hours using self-generated electricity and the business can claim all of the vans purchase cost, so it's effectively a free van and free miles.

All of the business heating is done through air source heat pumps. Brilliant bits of kit. Heat in winter and cool in summer. Each one consumes around 3.5kw and produces 7kw of heat or cooling. Very clever tech. The result of the solar panel installation, the use of all LED lamps and air source heat pumps is that we pay no electricity bills every year. We are always in credit and earn a little from it.

Jan (my O/H) has an E-Niro that is just brilliant. Proper car that does 300 miles to a full charge. Comfy, quick and very cheap to run. We have 3.5kw of solar panels on the garage roof that generates enough excess electricity to cover the cars requirements, so free miles. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone. There is no doubt that electric cars are the immediate future. AFAIK, commercial vans and lorries are not included in the 2030 deadline, just cars.

I agree that the infrastructure is not ready for EV's and that the amount of electricity required will increase massively. There is a simple solution though. All new home should be built with heat pumps and fitted with solar roof tiles. The additional cost at the build stage is half of the retrofit option. If every new or existing home could generate 3kw/h of electricity during daylight hours then usage would be greatly offset.

I'm a bit of a dinosaur too and drive a 3l V6 TDI car which I'm not going to change but I can see the benefits of EV's and certainly see the environmental benefits of such a change.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 08:02:08 AM by sye »

Offline MrDavo

  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 1150
  • He who dies with the most toys wins
    • View Profile
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2020, 08:33:44 AM »
When we were in the US we stayed in Massachusetts with a couple. She had a Prius hybrid, but while she was busy saving the planet, he had a V8 pickup truck, plus a boat with twin petrol V8s, that did gallons to the mile!
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A (Project)
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport

Offline Macabethiele (Ted)

  • SOHC Expert
  • Posts: 486
    • View Profile
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2020, 10:22:31 AM »
I am not convinced that our global warming is substantially man made. Unfortunately research grants at UK Universities are not given to anyone who want to look at alternative causes. All we are doing at the moment is moving the exhaust pipe from individual vehicles to power stations. The production of batteries is far from clean if you look at all aspects including the mineral mining. Can't see electric powered equipment in mines. I believe the carrot works better than the stick. I am at an age where I will never buy a new electric car. I've only ever purchased one brand new car in my lifetime. Due to the government grants on new cars I feel tax payers are indirectly subsidising the Tesla buyers as well as the Nissan Leaf.
Honda CB400F2 under restoration
Jeep Grand Cherokee WJ
Jeep Grand Cherokee WK
Mercedes R129 SL500

Offline SumpMagnet

  • SOHC Expert
  • Posts: 448
    • View Profile
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2020, 10:45:37 AM »
The 'hybrid' market is a crazy thing.

People pushing 'self charging hybrids' need to be given a stern talking to, as these things are the worst on every level. You have a battery vehicle lugging a big heavy petrol generator. When you run the generator, you have an inefficient charging setup. Run it as a petrol car, and you have a battery pack load to lug about...worsening the fuel usage.

Plug in hybrids can at least charge from external sources and properly use the petrol motor for emergencies....but...you still have that weight of redundant power supply to carry with you all the time reducing efficiency.

Ships and trains use an electric/fossil fuel combo, but they don;t pretend to be green...and do it for sounder engineering principles in vehicles where weight is less of a penalty.

But...if we all have electric vehicles....there will be a need to generate a LOT more power, and I suspect the current thinkers will be forced to go back down the nuclear rabbit hole sooner or later. It solves todays problems...and defers the consequences to teh next generation. Nice....

When it comes to efficient commuter vehicles.....light weight and simplicity should make electric motorcycles viable.....yet they are still stupidly expensive, and oddly limited. Aside from those illegal deathtrap scooter things that plague the roads and pavements of London. Zero is as close to a major manufacturer, but I won;t pay £15k for a bike with limited spares availability and no backing from a major manufacturer. Not when it delivers performance on a par with a 5K conventional bike. Of course...I can buy the cheap version without the long range battery pack...and charge it every other day. Though I did see a KTM offroader a while back with a 50mile range...and a removable pack you can charge off a 240v socket. Would get me to work and back for a day...but without charging infrastructure, it would be easy to charge in my house. If it's light...quick off the mark....and able to easily hit 60mph....that's plenty for town.
CB750F2 - in pieces
CB900F Hornet - the daily transport

Offline allankelly1

  • SOHC Associate
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2020, 11:41:58 AM »
Hi all

To be honest the electric vehicle my cut down pollution locally but as for global warming it will make no impact what so ever

Got a chance to be on the flight deck of a 777 during a business flight to America before 9/11 and they asked what do you think we are doing miles per gallon and the 777 burns thru a ton of fuel ever 10 mins

(For that flight (Gatwick to Dever) total fuel used was about 50 tons)

Just picture that for a moment that’s a ton of fuel  ever ten min for just 1 plane

So if you want to have any impact then  non essential air travel has to go as this form
of transportation is one of the world biggest polluter / generators of CO2 plus China India and the USA with general CO2 output

But I thing the biggest elephant in the room question is uncontrollable population growth

Unfortunately I think it’s all a bit too little / late and the human race is now on borrowed time and Mother Nature at some point will reset the clock

Rant over

Best wishes Al


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 11:54:37 AM by allankelly1 »

Offline Lobo

  • Lobo
  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 1154
  • Lobo
    • View Profile
    • Lobo
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2020, 11:54:58 AM »
Quote: “But...if we all have electric vehicles....there will be a need to generate a LOT more power, and I suspect the current thinkers will be forced to go back down the nuclear rabbit hole sooner or later. It solves todays problems...and defers the consequences to teh next generation. Nice....”

Surely SumpMagnet, the generation of more (electrical) energy will be totally offset (+ more) by the reduction of fossil fuel requirements for those same cars? A modern ICE car is 20-35% efficient in converting petrol into motive force; whereas an EV is 55-70% converting power station to motive. But if it’s battery is charged / offset by personal solar panels (we mostly have our own roofs) the efficiencies just get better....

As for your thoughts on efficient m/cs being the future; yep it makes sense to this forum. But alas Joe Public by-and-large wants 4 wheeled chariots / protection from the weather & idiot road users ... so I guess that one won’t fly 🙁.

My gut feeling is we’re back in the late 1800s, where horses were the only way, and the new fangled Otto cycle car thingy was completely laughable due its massive ferrous material demands, combustible liquid requirements, and complete lack of infrastructure. We’ve been here before... it’s no different.

Personally, I’m bloody amazed that a backward reciprocating engine & its support systems with hundreds of moving parts had survived into the 21st century... when an EV has abouts 20 moving parts.  What gives eh?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 12:31:10 PM by Lobo »

Offline Lobo

  • Lobo
  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 1154
  • Lobo
    • View Profile
    • Lobo
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2020, 12:29:32 PM »
Al... I’m retired now, but flew long haul for a living, B757, B767, B777 & B787.

All very ball park...

The B777 does indeed burn around 6T/hr, but for that you get to transport 300 folk, plus a few tonnes of cargo at 550mph.

Let’s say that’s 150 typical car loads, each car using 40kg of fuel, or 12 (Imp) gallons.
... meaning, that on 12 gallons each car takes you 550miles, achieving 45mpg.

Generally cars have one occupant, few have 4. Aircraft generally fly close to full... and as such, are arguably (person for person) kinder to the atmosphere. Certainly, I don’t believe, they deserve any more stick than the personal ICE automobile.

I do agree however on overpopulation!

Offline allankelly1

  • SOHC Associate
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2020, 12:38:08 PM »
But that’s the problem

The electric car is not the fix it’s a total move away from burning fossil fuel for the human race end off

(And not going nuclear either as thats not green or renewable)

As for planes the problem is the CO2 is dumped at high altitude and that is where it stays so maybe not as kind as it looks

It’s interesting that just after 9/11 air travel in the states was halted and due to no flight and therefore on con trails the actual average temp at ground level was measure to increase by at least 1 degree as the con trails reflect the sun heat back out into space so basically I think we are screwed stop flying the CO2 is reduced but the temp increases anyway due to no con trails




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 12:48:02 PM by allankelly1 »

Offline Moorey

  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 1322
    • View Profile
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2020, 01:57:39 PM »
What it is doing and will continue to do in this country is to penalize the poorer end of society. Why should those who can afford and want to buy new EVs be sponsored by by the less well off.

Offline SumpMagnet

  • SOHC Expert
  • Posts: 448
    • View Profile
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2020, 02:24:02 PM »
@Lobo ... don't see how the reduction in use of petrol/diesel will help with power generation. Power generation on the scale we will need it doesn't  use them, and the whole point is NOT to use them. The electricity has to be generated somehow.

Solar power in the UK is not so simple. Especially in the large urban areas where electric vehicles make the most sense. Large number s of people rent...and cannot fit panels unless the owner chooses to.... or else they live in flats where they don;t have their own roof...or anywhere to park a car and charge it.

I am in the process of trying to move to a house in London with a garage.....and I am out on the fringes. Still costing a shedload of money....well...actually I can get a shed pretty cheaply....

Our glorious leadership has decided we have 10 years before IC engines will no longer be sold. I worry that there simply isn't the power generation capacity to cope with the demand...and money needs to be invested in the generation of more power, and the distribution network to carry it to where it's needed. On top of that, I wonder if the current push for 'hybrids' indicates they are not going to be banned in 10 years.

If that is so...my bike is officially a Hybrid right now. If I switch off the engine and hold the starter button.....I can move. Hybrid. Self charging too...as pop the killswitch to 'run' and the battery recharges. Simple
CB750F2 - in pieces
CB900F Hornet - the daily transport

Offline cliff7

  • SOHC Associate
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2020, 04:17:35 PM »
What with Zoom and "excellent" electronic communication I'm sure much office type work can be done from home. Also more people are allegedly doing their shopping online. i know a few people working from home some days who reckon they are more productive, less time spent in traffic jams. I'm retired so don't really need a car. I realise many people need one as I did when I was working but they are an inefficient form of transport as has been said they often only have 1 occupant.

Offline andy120t

  • SOHC Expert
  • Posts: 351
    • View Profile
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2020, 06:18:38 PM »
I work from home all the time now and the car / bike have become, if anything, more essential as I use them as a break from work at lunchtimes. I don't always have the energy for a walk but a nice ride or drive is just the thing.

Mileage wise, most of my journeys are 6-60 miles so no concerns day to day with electric and I have a drive and garage so plenty of space for charging and it's a small behaviour change to plug in each day rather than drive for petrol.  It still comes back to range and infrastructure - I travel regularly to Suffolk (100 miles) and would need to be charged there ..but granny-in-law doesn't have that facility in her remote cottage. Plus I go to North Yorkshire a lot - often late on Friday and with the family - and Ive seen the queues for the only Tesla charge point on the A1. I don't want to add that to my journey.

No doubt though, we'll still be riding our bikes in 40 years time as the cost of forcing everyone to scrap petrol and diesel cars will be too high. I guess though that 100 years or so ago all the carts were recycled as firewood and the horses as ....burgers? So one day we'll have batteries that look like SOHC engines and the old ones might be baked-bean tins!
andy120t

CB650 project
CB400F frame - just missing a few bits...
ZX6R
GSXR 7/11
Triumph 5TA
CB900FZ

Offline ST1100

  • SOHC Expert
  • Posts: 410
    • View Profile
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2020, 11:08:59 AM »
What I unfortunately see omitted in the debates (and largely ignored if not even kept secret in all the "propaganda") are the issues of mining and processing the resources...

Already replacing a conventional vehicle with an "so much better" new one requiring mining bauxite (i.e. South America), ship it (crude oil freighters) across half the planet to plants in places like Asia where they produce aluminum cheap (more profitable) due the non existing environmental regulations, mining ore for steel production, dissolving copper out the rock with toxic harmful chemicals, etc, etc...
By the time this "oh so new" car is finally here, we've blown out so much CO² and other substances, my old EURO2 '96 Toyota probably couldn't emit in the next 500~1000 years...

Looking at EVs the issues for the environment described above are worsened largely by the additional mining and processing of Cobalt, Lithium and other substances required for the batteries...

Since decades one can observe mass-manipulation...
first vehicle tax classified by engine displacement...
Everyone ran to buy a modern car, once the majority had changed to the smaller, more efficient EFI engines, they announced "ha! and now we tax you by HP/kW output!"
Once this was milked, they announced catalytic converters mandatory... again everyone threw money into the industry...
Then the "drive diesel! Its economical and environmental friendly" message was omnipresent... (sponsored due state subsidized prices on diesel fuel)
Once >75% of cars out there were diesel, the course changed again, diesel is bad, you need to buy a new diesel with particle filter...
After the market was saturated, we of course suddenly needed an even newer one with diesel-KAT instead...

The oxymoron: the "old" cars didn't even get off the road, they continue to run in Eastern Europe and African countries (so much about reducing global pollution...)

The only one profiting from all this were industries and their share holders...

And now we can observe the same with this artificially generated EV-hype again...
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 11:11:16 AM by ST1100 »
STOC #637
'00 ST1100Y, '04 ST1100R, '07 NT700VA, CB500K2, CB500K1...

Offline royhall

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 2536
  • Keep biking I'm not quite bankrupt yet
    • View Profile
Re: Ten years to go until electric...
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2020, 11:53:34 AM »
When we were in the US we stayed in Massachusetts with a couple. She had a Prius hybrid, but while she was busy saving the planet, he had a V8 pickup truck, plus a boat with twin petrol V8s, that did gallons to the mile!
I know which route I would be going down. V8 boats are incredible especially with two of the sods. Personally I don't see the 2030 thing happening as there simply is not enough time. The 2040 date was more realistic but it wasn't BoJo's idea. They are talking about massive windfarms, new generation nuclear power plants etc etc all in 10 years. HS2 has been going longer than that and not a rail laid so far. Logistics simply will not allow it to happen.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 11:57:07 AM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
CB1300SA in Black
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
CB450K0 Black Bomber (current project)

 

SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal