CWC outer spokes too short on bend.

[Johnny4428]

This is a bit annoying. Have contacted CWC, awaiting reply.

[fogrider]

That's pretty poor, the spoke will be under a bending force itself , on the straight and on the engage bend, plus , a small  bending force on the drum flange.  If CWC is a responsible seller they will replace them without issue . Let us know what they say, flannel is not good enough when it comes to wheel building.
Regards, Terry.

[Nurse Julie]

It could be a simple case of the spokes that were fitted were not the correct ones for the wheel / hub in the 1st place. We've bought loads of stainless steel spoke sets from CWC and only had a problem with one set and that was due to the above reason. They just bent a new set for us at the measurements we gave and they then fitted a treat.

[Johnny4428]

This was my response I received. Right or wrong I don’t know?

Hi John,

     Thank you for your email.

We always supply the spokes as per the once you have received.

You need to apply downward pressure on each spoke & they will fit
perfectly.
the reason we supply spokes like this is that when you tension
& true the wheel, you will get a much better seating for the spoke
head in the hub.

Best regards

Richard

[Johnny4428]

Carried out what he said to do and this is the result. I’m not happy with curved spokes and further more there is not a lot of thread caught and that’s with a good bit of tension.

[fogrider]

To have all that thread showing is not good. As you say, there cannot be much thread engagement. See if you can find the official factory lengths, angles  etc and compare with what they sent and the ones you removed.
Spokes have to be right.
Keep checking, is it possible they sent the wrong set as happened to nurse Julie ?

Regards, Terry.

[Orcade-Ian]

Johnny,
I hate to disagree with the experts at CWC and have always had good service from them but in this case they are wrong.  I would go with a quarter of an inch to persuade them into the hole but yours are almost half a rim width.  He says that they seat better like that, so what about the others that go from outside in?  They will never seat the same way - or are they not important?  Your second pic on the first post suggests to me that they don't have enough length in the bend.  An eagle eyed MOT man ought to fail that - I know it doesn't need one!  Ask Dr D what he thinks.

Ian

[Johnny4428]

Yes I think I’ll send another email to Richard Hoyland and a couple of pics. I haven’t had a problem like this before, just three different size nipples before I got the right ones last time. They advertise sets of spokes for specific bikes which is fine as long as they know what was on the bike originaly. I didn’t send the original spokes because I assumed they knew. If anyone else is ordering for a cb750 front wheel I fear they are going to get the same. Ian I agree the inside ones are fine they are correct I have the wheel laced and trued with them. The outer ones are not far off the length of the old spokes but if you were to straighten them they would be about 3mm shorter. They are definitely too short on bend. Yes I could make them fit but it wouldn’t look right and in my opinion it wouldn’t be safe.

[Johnny4428]

Latest on spokes is the outer spokes are being returned to CWC for replacements, so hopefully sorted.

[Johnny4428]

This was my less than satisfactory reply from CWC this morning. They are basically telling me they cannot supply the correct spokes for my wheel. Really not sure what to do.

John

We have had 20 spokes back from you this morning along with a sample spoke - the spokes we have supplied are as close as we can get to the original sample - we do state on the back of the header card that the spokes are replacements and not replica’s - they are the bend we use ourselves when building this wheel and work safely in the build - we can offer a longer bend, but it is around 3mm longer than the sample you have sent so would look awful in the finished wheel and would in our opinion not build into a strong wheel - if you want us to assemble the wheel for you we can do so for £75 inc VAT and the wheel would come with a 10 year guarantee against spoke breakage with these spokes.

I await your instructions

kind regards

Warren Harding

[fogrider]

I sometimes find the angle of the spoke head will change the 'lay' of the spoke. Is it possible, if you made the angle slightly bigger, the spoke would lay against the hub better and let it 'ride up' in the hole . That also gives a slight increase in the reach (lengthwise) of the spoke.
A judgement on that can be made by looking at how nicely the spoke head fits in its recess in the hub.

I make all my spokes up from blanks which all came with 90deg ends. A simple jig allows me to bend the ends to suit the hub for the correct lay.  ( this includes the use of a hammer ! ).
Considering the response from CWC, it may end up the only way !   Sod paying them anymore.

The Triumph T150 I bought last year had newly built wheels by North East wheels up Newcastle way. Superbly done, straight spokes, good fit on the hubs , no threads showing. I have the receipt, glad I did'nt pay that bill !!!

Regards, Terry.

[Orcade-Ian]

Hi Johnny,
Sorry to hear that CWC are not prepared to sort the problem - I would be happy to make a rig to give an extra few degrees to the bend without marking them - not sure that it will cure the exposed thread problem entirely but it must help a bit and not end up with that horrible bow shape.  Give me a ring or email if you think I can help.  You are allowed to visit now if you are out this way.

Ian

[Johnny4428]

Thanks guys! I have been in contact today with Warren from CWC there have been several emails plus photos back and fore during the day. I must say that they have been very helpful and have offered to make spokes 1/16th” longer on bend which they reckon is the length they are short of the originals. But they have also assured me that it is OK to bend these spokes in to fit. They pointed out that the spacing of spoke holes on my rim was varying giving the situation that some nipples would be further onto threads than others. I sent a pic of the wheel I had laced up with the inner spokes and there was nothing wrong with the way I had laced they said that it was the traditional way. They sent me a pic of a wheel they had done with the same spokes, which I noticed had all the inside spokes pulling one way and outer pulling in opposite way which they say makes a stronger wheel. So a bit more satisfactory than the initial response. Terry your right, I will check angle of spoke head inside hub to see if that can be improved on, but I do think Honda made the spokes that spec and size and angle of bend for a reason. Ian thanks for your offer of help! I will be in touch even if it’s just for coffee. I have decided I will try different ways of building this wheel just to see if I can gain on the outer spokes fit, ie less thread showing.

[fogrider]

I take it that when you recieved the spokes they were in two sets - inners and outers ? They should be different.
Stating the obvious, but if all else fails, check the obvious.

Just looked at my CB550 :
 It  has Tagasako rims and S/S spokes fitted by a previous owner. Built by  - unknown. On the rear wheel  the outers are flush with the alloy drum flange and run straight, the inners run off the hub towards the centre of the wheel. Excellent.

At the front I was surprised to see the outers on the disc hub have a curve on them !, pulled tight towards the centre of the rim and hard against the flange . Worse, there is 3mm of thread showing on the outers too.  That's going to annoy me now !
Keep at it
Regards, Terry.

[fogrider]

I've  now had a good look at the front wheel.   The rim is not central on the hub. If I slacken all the spokes and re-set the rim 1/16" to the right, the spokes will lie correctly and the threads showing should disappear.

It will have to wait though until I have time to take the tyre off, must check what happens inside the rim.

Regards all, Terry.