Author Topic: Steering Head Bearings  (Read 783 times)

Online McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 1657
  • 07505030740
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2021, 06:11:35 PM »
Not doubting your findings Oddjob yours is an early 500 you say - both myself plus Andy have a different size upper ball race - the size variation is too large for it to be a simple measurement error.

Could it be that they changed size during production over the years - this might explain why some folk have so much trouble fitting taper rollers at a later date yet some don't?
Interestingly not all sellers show the same bearings across all the variants wheras some do. My 400F2 was registered in March 1978 so I assume it's a later production version.
Honda CB400F2 under restoration
Land Rover Freelander Series 2
Jeep Grand Cherokee WK
Mercedes R129 SL500

Offline Oddjob

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 4630
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2021, 06:23:12 PM »
They were all the same when I was in the trade Ted and that was after yours was produced as well.

Of course I could always be wrong, I'm not that conversant with the 400 although I did do a lot of work on them at the time but that was many years ago now.
Don't play stupid with me, I'm better at it

Online McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 1657
  • 07505030740
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2021, 08:32:12 PM »
Might interest you to know I'm currently looking at converting the original swinging arm to needle bearings instead of the metal sleeves they used back in the 70s. It's about 50% done at the moment with some small machining needed which I'm having to ask a mate to do as I don't have a lathe.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:15:55 PM by Oddjob »

The rear swing arm bearings on my 400 were some sort of plastic sleeve, I've changed them for Brass sleeves (via NJ) - needle rollers sound interesting - similar to the old Mini rear radius arms - they had sleeves on one end that had to be reamed to fit with needle rollers at the other end. Oddly enough the needle rollers usually wore out first due to water ingress. I never understood why they had two such different bearings on the same radius arm shaft.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174340141835?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=174340141835&targetid=1279902197659&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1006674&poi=&campaignid=12689626702&mkgroupid=124353408922&rlsatarget=pla-1279902197659&abcId=9300529&merchantid=101733956&gclid=CjwKCAjwgviIBhBkEiwA10D2jwz9reN4dmzkpa-vSvbNu-29oJvQwt2Stgebd-2RJ7V7LV60ycqqkRoCmcUQAvD_BwE
Honda CB400F2 under restoration
Land Rover Freelander Series 2
Jeep Grand Cherokee WK
Mercedes R129 SL500

Online Bryanj

  • Grogu
  • *
  • Posts: 8489
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2021, 10:00:11 PM »
You could get needle roller conversions from the US some years back but they didnt last long as the bearings only really last when they are rotating, remember the mono shock rear bears that needed changing  nearly every mot

Offline Andych

  • SOHC Member
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2021, 11:46:55 PM »
1975 CB400 - Project
1978 Yamaha SRX250 - Project

Offline Oddjob

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 4630
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2021, 03:25:13 AM »
You could get needle roller conversions from the US some years back but they didnt last long as the bearings only really last when they are rotating, remember the mono shock rear bears that needed changing  nearly every mot

And yet Honda have fitted them to the swinging arm of my current bike the CB1300. Maybe it's regular greasing that makes them last?

I'll have a measure of the race I removed and see if that's right Andy, maybe it is 48.5 but if so why not stamp it so it reflects that.
Don't play stupid with me, I'm better at it

Online McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 1657
  • 07505030740
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2021, 09:49:30 AM »
That H264815 bearing number has measurements of 26 x 48.5 x 15 as per the link below.
https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p554001/H264815-Narrow-Section-Steering-Head-Set-Taper-Roller-Bearing-26x48.5x15mm/product_info.html
I think you are onto something here it's the part number not the actual bearing size!
Either way you can get the right upper taper roller that's not too tall.

Out of interest nobody appears to list a 26 x 48 x15 bearing on the couple of sites I have checked on.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 04:12:12 PM by Macabethiele (Ted) »
Honda CB400F2 under restoration
Land Rover Freelander Series 2
Jeep Grand Cherokee WK
Mercedes R129 SL500

Online Bryanj

  • Grogu
  • *
  • Posts: 8489
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2021, 02:28:13 PM »
Thats because the taper rollers that fit the bikes are not a standard sizr

Offline Oddjob

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 4630
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2021, 04:27:45 PM »
Just measured my old bearing with a Digital Vernier gauge and it's 48.52 so close enough that it's clearly a 48.50 and they either couldn't stamp it with the decimal point or everyone knew it was 48.5 as standard but it got forgot as time past.

The size doesn't really matter though, it's the thickness that's critical, so long as you get the 15mm thick one it seems your fine so long of course that you couple it with the thin lower bearing which looks to be either 14 or 15mm thick and a 3mm spacer. I'm looking at finding a seal which goes around the lower headstock and maybe making the spacer 1mm thinner to compensate.

This one may work https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p43737/Washer-to-fit-32006JR-Narrow-Section-Steering-Head-Set-Taper-Roller-Bearing/product_info.html
Don't play stupid with me, I'm better at it

Offline AndyD

  • SOHC Expert
  • Posts: 280
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2021, 04:32:04 PM »
Update on the Wemoto bearings.
Had another play with the upper set - popped a couple of loose ball bearings in to see how it would build up if the caged bearings did fit properly.
The race seems correct and as original but the cone is quite different and when fitted the set is several mm higher than standard so not much use.
[ Guests cannot view attachments ] [ Guests cannot view attachments ]
Shame as the bottom set seems perfect and the top would be if the cage fitted and the cone was the same profile as original.
I just wonder why someone has put together all these varieties of replacement bearing sets that just aren't correct.
Wemoto are looking into this so maybe the supplier can explain / correct things.
Cheers,
Andy

Online McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 1657
  • 07505030740
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2021, 05:16:32 PM »
Update on the Wemoto bearings.
Had another play with the upper set - popped a couple of loose ball bearings in to see how it would build up if the caged bearings did fit properly.
The race seems correct and as original but the cone is quite different and when fitted the set is several mm higher than standard so not much use.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Shame as the bottom set seems perfect and the top would be if the cage fitted and the cone was the same profile as original.
I just wonder why someone has put together all these varieties of replacement bearing sets that just aren't correct.
Wemoto are looking into this so maybe the supplier can explain / correct things.
Cheers,
Andy

This was the set of plain rollers I bought when I could not find a suitable upper taper. At £15 for the pair not too expensive. I'm pretty sure you will be able to buy just the upper bearing if you contact the firm. The dimensions given I can confirm were accurate. Might be worth sending a PM to 4wDaz he sourced me some Primary Drive bearings at a great price.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324462234796
Honda CB400F2 under restoration
Land Rover Freelander Series 2
Jeep Grand Cherokee WK
Mercedes R129 SL500

Online McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 1657
  • 07505030740
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2021, 04:07:40 PM »
Although I'm sticking with my existing mixture of bearing types I have purchased the top taper roller bearing from Pyramid parts and can confirm they are the same dimensions including the all important height at 15 mm. So looks like anyone can fit taper rollers if they want to on a 400/4. I'm thinking of fitting some sort or shield/deflector to reduce water reaching the lower races. I'm sure with it having a 3 mm spacer a better seal could be fitted.
Honda CB400F2 under restoration
Land Rover Freelander Series 2
Jeep Grand Cherokee WK
Mercedes R129 SL500

Offline Athame57

  • SOHC Pro
  • Posts: 686
    • View Profile
    • SeaWitch Artist
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2021, 08:08:02 PM »
Although I'm sticking with my existing mixture of bearing types I have purchased the top taper roller bearing from Pyramid parts and can confirm they are the same dimensions including the all important height at 15 mm. So looks like anyone can fit taper rollers if they want to on a 400/4. I'm thinking of fitting some sort or shield/deflector to reduce water reaching the lower races. I'm sure with it having a 3 mm spacer a better seal could be fitted.
Which size would I need to order from them on their drop menu? https://pyramid-parts.com/products/ssbmain
I brake for animals!
1978 CB400F2

Online McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

  • SOHC Master
  • Posts: 1657
  • 07505030740
    • View Profile
Re: Steering Head Bearings
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2021, 08:33:51 PM »
Although I'm sticking with my existing mixture of bearing types I have purchased the top taper roller bearing from Pyramid parts and can confirm they are the same dimensions including the all important height at 15 mm. So looks like anyone can fit taper rollers if they want to on a 400/4. I'm thinking of fitting some sort or shield/deflector to reduce water reaching the lower races. I'm sure with it having a 3 mm spacer a better seal could be fitted.
Which size would I need to order from them on their drop menu? https://pyramid-parts.com/products/ssbmain

For the top one it's 26 x 48.5 x 15 you have options for the lower one they list  for 30 x 50 x 14 with an appropriate spacer (they do list one at only 13 mmm tall). Quite a few sellers make bottom roller bearings that fit so other makes are available.

This link is for individual bearings rather than a kit.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290781743090?var=590082068373

Kit looks like BR29 & it has seals!    https://pyramid-parts.com/products/ssbmain?variant=40126403591

Helpful fitting guide too.https://pyramid-parts.com/pages/steering-head-bearings-fitment-guide

Please double check my findings before you order.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 08:45:15 PM by Macabethiele (Ted) »
Honda CB400F2 under restoration
Land Rover Freelander Series 2
Jeep Grand Cherokee WK
Mercedes R129 SL500

 

SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal