Author Topic: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?  (Read 3288 times)

Offline AshimotoK0

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Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« on: November 10, 2021, 10:02:37 AM »
Just building a bit of kit to test out Honda condensers. (using a scrap 12v ->400v DC generator ) . I have a decent Fluke meter to test the capacitance accurately  but the Service Tester applied a high voltage of several hundred volts in order to check for dielectric insulation breakdown at high voltage. Does anyone know the voltage that the Service Tester generated/applied to the condenser under test? I suspect about 400v DC but I don't want to trash perfectly good condensers by overdoing it.

I think Oddjob used to give his apprentices electric shocks using that bit of kit, so maybe he's my man. Or if anyone has a copy of the service tester manual it may tell you in that. I suspect a lot of Honda capacitors are binned when there is nowt wrong with them ..only to be replaced by pattern parts such as  Daiichi and the like, which are sh*te.

UPDATE : Found these manual scans. Looks like the 70's tester used an electro-mechanical  vibrator to generate the high voltage ( like car valve radios used in the 1950's) ... I am using a solid-state inverter.

 However, I suspect that the tester applied voltage at a frequency of 60hz....  reading the JIS spec. for condenser testing.

Also found the instructions for use in the CB450K0 Black Bomber shop manual. If anyone wants to gen. themselves up on vintage Honda electrics then read the section on electrics in the BB manual  ;D  Link below:-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/typ5a2r2mjaxtvs/CB450%20K0%20BLACK%20BOMBER%20SHOP%20MANUAL%20.pdf?dl=0

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« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 10:35:02 AM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2021, 10:38:48 PM »
Got the (very serious) boys on the 'Amateur Radio'  forum analysing the schematic.

Think I am going to build a high voltage generator (12v _>400v inverter and switch that at a frequency akin to the max engine speed using a high voltage ignition transistor, whilst heating the metal can of the condenser to a typical 'in service' temperature... as per the 1966 J.I.S. standard .... described in the 1966 Honda Shop manual for the 'Black Bomber' CB450K0. It will be interesting to see how a brand new Daiichi condenser fairs when subjected to this test. As Thin Lizzie would sing .. they have a Bad Reputation  ;D
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2021, 12:59:44 PM »
Wow .... just checked and the price each for a genuine condenser for a CB400F is just over £50
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline Bryanj

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2021, 01:33:00 PM »
Ash you can still get the comlete points plate with everything on from your local dealer for just over £100

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2021, 09:23:04 AM »
Got an absolutely fantastic response from the VintageRadio forum on this topic.

Not so much on here though, which is a bit disappointing.
 
Not particularly having a rant but it seems we get pages and pages of posts on here on  the differences between Honda  candy gold paint finishes, so I am beginning to wonder why I bother posting this tech stuff as there seems to be very little discussion.

Anyway, moving on,  I bought a high voltage  insulation tester to 'weed' out condensers , before I build a pukka JIS spec.  tester.

Interestingly, I took a dual capacitor from a Honda twin and a NOS similar one.
Testing the capacitor at elevated temperature, akin to what you get in service, the capacitance was bang on the correct value given by Honda on both the old and the NOS parts.

Also testing the the insulation firstly at 250v, then 500v, then 1000v,  on a single 'static'  test, the insulation was fine on both the used one (Genuine part .. taken from a 1973 bike) and on the NOS one. I also tested a NOS electronic component 'wire ended' one of similar capacitance and voltage spec.

However, there is a 'continuous' test mode on the new tester I bought and when tested on this function (it repeatedly applies the voltage), the used one started displaying a value of a couple of megOhms leakage, whereas the NOS part and the 'reference' capacitor didn't.

So I guess the used condenser is leaky, dynamically and explains why the owner of the bike was reporting excessive arcing at the points, even though on a static test the capacitor tested out fine.

My next 'experiment' is to dig out a brand new Daiichi pattern one and put it through it's paces. This brand has a very bad press but is the pattern part sold by lot's of reputable parts suppliers including David Silvers.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 10:10:56 AM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline SteveD CB500K0

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2021, 11:06:26 AM »
Just because we don’t reply doesn’t mean we don’t read them Ash.

As an ex electronic engineer I get most of what you post.

I haven’t actively practised electronic design/test since the mid 80s though…


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Offline taysidedragon

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2021, 11:29:31 AM »
Hi Ash. I post about things I know about, but deep electrickery is out of my league. I'm more of a mechanical, steam-powered kind of dinosaur.   ;D
Gareth

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1965 T100SS

Offline Bryanj

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2021, 04:19:13 PM »
I read your posts carefully Ash and you are so methodical and thourough there is rarely anything to add.ihave used theDaichi arts for years and reading Mark Paris on our sister forum it seems thateven they have been "pirated" in another country and it is these that are failing

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2021, 04:35:18 PM »
The Daiichi ones I have, I bought new from Silvers about ten years ago Bryan
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline Laverdaroo

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2021, 07:52:37 PM »
Not so much on here though, which is a bit disappointing.
 
Not particularly having a rant but it seems we get pages and pages of posts on here on  the differences between Honda  candy gold paint finishes, so I am beginning to wonder why I bother posting this tech stuffas there seems to be very little discussion.

I have to read your posts several times and that's with breaks to Google words you use, then re read to get the gist , I've stumbled into wiring this year doing 'Chewy' for the Long Haired General so what you write I find terribly interesting. What you post is so in depth and way beyond anything I can imagine, like others have said, what could I possibly add? Please dont stop posting them mate but as long as you dont mind me sitting quietly in awe and not commenting?
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Offline Sesman

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2021, 08:25:12 AM »
I read your posts with great interest Ash, but it’s a very niche subject and probably why you received a good response from the radio folks. I’ll wager your DC testing of capacitors/ condensers is of interest to the majority on the forum, especially your comparative testing on OEM and aftermarket items. Original capacitors are so expensive, ridiculously so and any effort to find a serviceable and economic alternative is deeply appreciated. As for dv/dt, mean voltage, peak voltage, ripple, temperature, farrads, di/dt, construction, dielectric properties etc it’s a new language to some. Keep it coming as I for one need the educational insights.

Offline Bryanj

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2021, 08:50:04 AM »
Ash, the points and condensers i bought were a job lot from Hy Level by a dealer friend who made a very small percent on my order and it was probably 20yrs ago so i hoe they are daichi originals.
I did get both sets of Honda points labled as 400 four in Honda blister packs for £6 each on a stall at a car show. Kept schtum and walked away smiling

Offline cbxman

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2021, 09:55:45 AM »
Got an absolutely fantastic response from the VintageRadio forum on this topic.

Not so much on here though, which is a bit disappointing.
 
Not particularly having a rant but it seems we get pages and pages of posts on here on  the differences between Honda  candy gold paint finishes, so I am beginning to wonder why I bother posting this tech stuffas there seems to be very little discussion.

Anyway, moving on,  I bought a high voltage  insulation tester to 'weed' out condensers , before I build a pukka JIS spec.  tester.

Interestingly, I took a dual capacitor from a Honda twin and a NOS similar one.
Testing the capacitor at elevated temperature, akin to what you get in service, the capacitance was bang on the correct value given by Honda on both the old and the NOS parts.

Also testing the the insulation firstly at 250v, then 500v, then 1000v,  on a single 'static'  test, the insulation was fine on both the used one (Genuine part .. taken from a 1973 bike) and on the NOS one. I also tested a NOS electronic component 'wire ended' one of similar capacitance and voltage spec.

However, there is a 'continuous' test mode on the new tester I bought and when tested on this function (it repeatedly applies the voltage), the used one started displaying a value of a couple of megOhms leakage, whereas the NOS part and the 'reference' capacitor didn't.

So I guess the used condenser is leaky, dynamically and explains why the owner of the bike was reporting excessive arcing at the points, even though on a static test the capacitor tested out fine.

My next 'experiment' is to dig out a brand new Daiichi pattern one and put it through it's paces. This brand has a very bad press but is the pattern part sold by lot's of reputable parts suppliers including David Silvers.

Ash, Don't be disappointed,

There must be many of us who like to see endeavours like yours.  I'm a retired BT electronics designer/tester and also a lapsed radio amateur, so please go ahead and entertain us.  I love that sort of thing.  Keep it coming.

Cheers,
Jerry
CB750 K1 1971 Wisconsin, USA
Suzuki GT550 J 1972 Michigan USA
CB360 G5 1975 UK
CBX1000 A 1980 (European Direct Sales)
CB1300 A5, 2005 UK

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2021, 08:27:06 PM »
Thanks for comments and PM's all. .. that's encouraging.

I found a newish looking points/condenser assembly in my stash of parts and it looks like the points and condensers are all  Daiichi. Stamped 'Made in Japan'

I tested the condensers both statically and continuously and perfect results. All of the NOS Denso condensers I have tested so far are OK too. The only used one I have tested so far turned out to be leaky but it's 48 years old, so understandable I suppose.

I will go through my entire stock of used and NOS condensers and see how they all  fare.

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Offline SteveD CB500K0

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Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2021, 06:59:04 AM »
I was down an internet rabbit hole the other day and came across a guy that reviewed vintage hifi loudspeakers.

Typically 70s/80s stuff.

He always comments on the state of any crossover circuitry and reviews the speakers as-found before refurbing the filters and retesting. His comments on 50-year-old capacitors are entertaining.


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