Author Topic: Plug caps and plugs  (Read 987 times)

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2022, 01:36:57 PM »
"Here is my personal view on the matter. The combustion engine is but the next step in locomotion right after the steam engine (and it is about time we kick it into oblivion  ;)). Where on a steam engine the stoker had to add coal to an already burning fire, say at every telegraph pole, the combustion engine begins with putting the mixture in and then throws a match at it. I know, I know, all put very simple, but just for the perspective.
Now our way of interpreting phenomena has also been evaluated and thanks to progress in digitization, we are now used to pin point accuracy. However to project such precision on a process as primitive as a fire place like in the combustion chambre, doesn't touch either side (if that's the correct expression). Every combustion cycle differs from its predecessor and its successor and the margins are wide."

With that statement I can see why you form such a limited view of combustion effects. In the contrary, it's a very demanding and precise science supported by extensive (all motor manufacturing over many years) that's concise, repeatable and highly accurate form of motive power. Because you've not seen fit to study this area doesn't make it in any way primative, but can obviously lead to innacurrate statement on your part. How can you make judgment from such an I'll informed overview ?

"Personally I have no reason to doubt the advice given by Honda France and Honda The Netherlands and I find the fact that 10kΩ caps are not even available anymore, telling. From school I vaguely remember something about Rc time, but I won't even look it up. Don't get me wrong. I have always been open to a possible effect on spark duration, but..."

Surely a quasi-religious view, that which follows a doctrine of which you cannot be certain of the origin, or supporting reasoning to make convincing technical statements which can withstand valid scrutiny. 

Factually, Honda (by default their combustion engineers) make statements in manuals that see absolutely that both resisted plugs and caps can be used, without reservation or need to set that system in any way differently. Where the regional distributor gets information that contradicts that research from would be a key point in discussion, both it's reasoning and origin. If they cannot do that, then it doesn't even clear a very low level of factual scrutiny that was mentioned earlier in thread about proving right or wrong.

As it is, Honda (Japan and through their published manuals) say theres no reason not to. In other words it has no detrimental effect. Proof of the opposite is necessary to challenge that view. Does that exist from Honda?  and with a traceable route to their combustion engineers.

Perceived advantages are a seperate topic if they exist. These two direction are not in the same reasoning and discussion related to the simple question of "can we use both items with R status together on these system" Honda position is yes you can, and without detrimental effect or need to adapt.


Offline deltarider

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2022, 04:32:54 PM »
"Here is my personal view on the matter. The combustion engine is but the next step in locomotion right after the steam engine (and it is about time we kick it into oblivion  ;)). Where on a steam engine the stoker had to add coal to an already burning fire, say at every telegraph pole, the combustion engine begins with putting the mixture in and then throws a match at it. I know, I know, all put very simple, but just for the perspective.
Now our way of interpreting phenomena has also been evaluated and thanks to progress in digitization, we are now used to pin point accuracy. However to project such precision on a process as primitive as a fire place like in the combustion chambre, doesn't touch either side (if that's the correct expression). Every combustion cycle differs from its predecessor and its successor and the margins are wide."

With that statement I can see why you form such a limited view of combustion effects. In the contrary, it's a very demanding and precise science supported by extensive (all motor manufacturing over many years) that's concise, repeatable and highly accurate form of motive power. Because you've not seen fit to study this area doesn't make it in any way primative, but can obviously lead to innacurrate statement on your part. How can you make judgment from such an I'll informed overview ?
Easy enough. Just talk to the mechanics on the floor, that have opened multiple engines to find excessive carbon build up. There's your "very demanding and precise science supported by extensive (all motor manufacturing over many years) that's concise, repeatable and highly accurate form of motive power. " We're talking engines from the early 70s with an efficiency of 20% at best. For the remaining 80% they're stoves. Furthermore... you can study lightning till you're blue in the face, but every stroke will be different and cannot be repeated with identical results. Visit Teylers Museum in Haarlem. They have the biggest Wimshurst machine in the world. That spectacle will enlighten you no end. BTW, what goes on in lightning is still subject of studies. One of the more recent findings is that small particles from outer space play a crucial role.
 
"Personally I have no reason to doubt the advice given by Honda France and Honda The Netherlands and I find the fact that 10kΩ caps are not even available anymore, telling. From school I vaguely remember something about Rc time, but I won't even look it up. Don't get me wrong. I have always been open to a possible effect on spark duration, but..."

Surely a quasi-religious view, that which follows a doctrine of which you cannot be certain of the origin, or supporting reasoning to make convincing technical statements which can withstand valid scrutiny. 
Are you seriously suggesting I should ignore the advice by Honda's technical chiefs in France and The Netherlands, the guys that instruct dealers mechanics on a yearly base? And what is quasi-religious? Something is religious or not.
Factually, Honda (by default their combustion engineers) make statements in manuals that see absolutely that both resisted plugs and caps can be used, without reservation or need to set that system in any way differently. Where the regional distributor gets information that contradicts that research from would be a key point in discussion, both it's reasoning and origin. If they cannot do that, then it doesn't even clear a very low level of factual scrutiny that was mentioned earlier in thread about proving right or wrong.

As it is, Honda (Japan and through their published manuals) say theres no reason not to. In other words it has no detrimental effect. Proof of the opposite is necessary to challenge that view. Does that exist from Honda?  and with a traceable route to their combustion engineers.
I never stated you can't have both resistor plugs and caps. Have you ever wondered why it's only the Canadian market that has both? As a matter of fact, I have been the first to point at that. Why rule out it's just about local legislation? And if not, why were only the Canadians awarded the 'benefits' of extra resistance?
Here's a question. As soon as I have overcome my laziness, I'll swap my Dyna coils for the OEM I still have. The Dyna required resistor plugs as the Dynatek caps have none. The OEM do not. They have resistor caps fitted. Now I'm lazy, so I will keep the R plugs.
Please predict me what noticable effects I can expect.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 10:20:42 AM by deltarider »

Offline Sesman

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2022, 04:53:47 PM »
Quasi religion refers to recently created subcultures or organizations that, while not overtly religious, incorporate religious or spiritual elements into their belief systems.

I’ll never mention plugs and caps again….😢

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2022, 12:21:14 PM »
Quasi religion refers to recently created subcultures or organizations that, while not overtly religious, incorporate religious or spiritual elements into their belief systems.

I’ll never mention plugs and caps again….😢

 ;D ;D ;D

I was riffing on delta's observation of becoming a religious type offering without competent reason behind it.

This site essentially ok with debate about even small details and can usually flush out valid evidence to convince why something is stated as such.

Without good evidence it does become a bit a doctrine though, which doesn't serve anyone well.

Your observation about university method should bring a logical and complete answer to the topic though, interesting and a little fun along the way too.

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2022, 01:15:54 PM »
"Are you seriously suggesting I should ignore the advice by Honda's technical chiefs in France and The Netherlands, the guys that instruct dealers mechanics on a yearly base?"

Your view of their advice is just a consideration for you to make, I'd not offer advice.

But using hierarchy of distributor staff to bring a smokescreen to the topic serves no purpose.  That's because you have no confirmation of the reason behind it.

As an example it could simply be commercially driven aspect that is agrred between those country representatives and ongoing dealer businesses.  To remove one stock line from demand etc is certainly a consideration in cost savings for those businesses chain participants.  Of course 10 spec caps can't be needed as you can arrange to make 5+5 if that's the advice to fit. You don't know the answer to this, that's not confirmation of technical direction in any certainty. 

The Canadian market would seem to force that specification through legislation (which Honda facilitate through their testing and printed advice) which is not required by law in European markets, making no need to stock line duplicated examples for dealer workshop.  Just much easier to run simple system if law enforcement is not a consideration.

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2022, 01:19:27 PM »
"Easy enough. Just talk to the mechanics on the floor, that have opened multiple engines to find excessive carbon build up. There's your "very demanding and precise science supported by extensive (all motor manufacturing over many years) that's concise, repeatable and highly accurate form of motive power. " We're talking engines from the early 70s with an efficiency of 20% at best. For the remaining 80% they're stoves. Furthermore... you can study lightning till you're blue in the face, but every stroke will be different and cannot be repeated with identical results. Visit Teylers Museum in Haarlem. They have the biggest Wimshurst machine in the world. That spectacle will enlighten you no end. BTW, what goes on in lightning is still subject of studies. One of the more recent findings is that small particles from outer space play a crucial role."

That's an assessment of the system delivered and not the capability of using petroleum as a fuel. Again, burning this fuel is very precise, depends if there is a competent system to carry that out.

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2022, 01:30:02 PM »
I'll put it simply, there's no observable facts or supporting documentary publication that is contrary to Honda original advice that it doesnt require any changes to set up to run in either specification.

If it exists, then show us and we can all  believe in what is written there, by Honda Japan that alters the view in any way.

Offline deltarider

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2022, 01:51:46 PM »
So far - and I have kept record - the various European fora suggest an OEM standard suppression of around 6,5kΩ. Not only matches it my own findings, but it is consistent with Honda France's advice to replace caps once they read > 8kΩ. What legislation in other markets require(d)? I have no idea. Can these engines run with a 11,5kΩ (that's a 23kΩ in one circuit!) resistance? No doubt, when everything is new, why not?
What I'm very much against, is folks attributing some - sofar unknown - benificial effect, without anything to substantiate this, let alone to deliver proof. Then - so, it seems - it comes down to who said it. Sorry, but the rules are for everyone the same. When somebody is right, say 80% of the time, people should still feel free to criticise where that person is wrong. In the international forum only a few do this and I don't need more than five fingers to count them...

Offline Sesman

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2022, 02:04:42 PM »
News flash.

According to Greenspark the NGK D7ES are now obsolete and will not be taking on any more stock.

Offline deltarider

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2022, 02:12:23 PM »
The D7ES was not a very good sparkplug. Either turn to D7EA or the sparkplug widely used by riders in Holland: D8ES-L Back then a '7' was for break-in period only or if your riding was mostly < 5000 rpm. After break-in and even more for long hauls, especially at maintained high speeds on Autostrada and Autobahns, many turned to the latter, which was also advised by my dealer who owned a CB500 himself.

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2022, 02:44:03 PM »
News flash.

According to Greenspark the NGK D7ES are now obsolete and will not be taking on any more stock.
Never used D7ES, only ever used D7EA or D8EA or the Denso equivalent.
IIRC the D7ES was superseded by the D7EA years ago.
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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2022, 04:57:05 PM »
Yes, sorry. My typo….Lordy.

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2022, 09:36:06 AM »
So far - and I have kept record - the various European fora suggest an OEM standard suppression of around 6,5kΩ. Not only matches it my own findings, but it is consistent with Honda France's advice to replace caps once they read > 8kΩ. What legislation in other markets require(d)? I have no idea. Can these engines run with a 11,5kΩ (that's a 23kΩ in one circuit!) resistance? No doubt, when everything is new, why not?
What I'm very much against, is folks attributing some - sofar unknown - benificial effect, without anything to substantiate this, let alone to deliver proof. Then - so, it seems - it comes down to who said it. Sorry, but the rules are for everyone the same. When somebody is right, say 80% of the time, people should still feel free to criticise where that person is wrong. In the international forum only a few do this and I don't need more than five fingers to count them...

To discuss if there's a benefit of any type in using different resistance in these system is a completely stand alone topic. If a seperate thread is needed to consider that, it should be initiated.

My view is that anything I write should be challenged as it's an open forum. By that method we can all see if reliable information, with a technically defined reason is available in considering any topic.

As to the question of "can you run both 5 resistance plugs and 5 resistance caps?" then the answer is, from honda, that you can and without detrimental effect, consideration of setting etc.

So far there is no presented information you can provide that brings a change of view contrary to the Honda combustion designers that tells us why technically we can't do this.
Unless that's available, it should be seen for what it is, either a commercial aspect, a notional view which is not based on facts, or similar that's embedded for no relevant technical reason when this is described.  This is not technical competance.

Where is a scource of information traceable to those originating Honda engineers that designed, tested and proved the specification, or that gives us proper overview of why this should be different. You don't have that as far as I can see.

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2022, 10:47:40 AM »
Honda have been so wrong with a ton of statements over the years and the wrong information in manuals  :o

I have had many problems with many bikes over the years using R rated plugs and resistant caps. I have maybe 100's members in my phone on whatsapp that i have solved there misfire, hunting problems by advising the just change the plugs to non resistant and switch to Denso plugs and that has been on the standard points set up and Dyna set ups.

A good example is : One member in Ireland had hunting and misfire on his 400/4 for years. He had tried everything and had spent a fortune on Dyna ignition, coils, having his carbs rebuilt, new inlet rubbers. Sending me video's of the problem monthly , i told him to take his non resistant plugs out of his 500 four and put them in his 400/4. The next video he sent, the bike was running perfect and he was that grateful that, he sent me a new kitchen on a truck from Ireland as, they have a manufacturing company.  :)

Experience wins with me all the time and not just because a computer says so  ;) 

 

Offline deltarider

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Re: Plug caps and plugs
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2022, 11:12:24 AM »
Thank you Trigger, thank you very much! I thought I was about to go crazy. BTW, your experience matches at least two specialists on CBFours in Holland. They have even issued a warning.*
@K2-K6 I thought I had made myself clear, but here it is again. I have never, ever stated you can't run both resistor caps and R plugs. When new, why not? Personally I find 6,5kΩ (cap) and 5kΩ (plug) = 11,5kΩ  x 2 = 23kΩ in one circuit quite a lot for suppression and this level may come close to compromising reliability. My personal experience with Denso R plugs is, that they even increase their resistance over time and so do the plugcaps...
Furthermore in the international forum I have been the first one to point at the excessive suppresion in Canada, if was true what someone claimed that the OEM plugcaps resistance was 10kΩ to start with. If. In that case Canada would have had, provided there was no error in the parts list: 10kΩ (cap) and 5kΩ (plug) = 15kΩ  x 2 = 30kΩ in one circuit. That's a lot!
In spite of all my research, I haven't been able to find specifications about the plugcaps resistance in any Honda document, let alone in Honda's elaborate volume Motorcycle Electrical Systems**
* https://honda4parts.nl/product_info.php?products_id=332&language=en&ceid=a3acafccefb1aba9af3cec2df24953d8
** Honda Technical Series.https://www.honda4fun.com/dwnload/Wiring/Honda-Motorcycle-Electrical-Systems.pdf
« Last Edit: June 06, 2022, 11:45:52 AM by deltarider »

 

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