4 into 4 exhausts

[Bryanj]

The 500 ones that DS sells are genuine Honda and usually he orders a lot in one go, it is possible that Honda have discontinued them now, ask at your local dealer

[StPeter]

DS is claiming they are now discontinued. Which is probably why CMS have doubled their prices in the last few weeks - I suppose anyone with NOS Honda parts they want to clear would make their way to him. I can't see prices falling much though!

[StPeter]

Thanks for the comments, Oddjob. My condolences on the tank!
CMS are telling the story that "their" pipes are made by the original manufacturer who has set up to make them. This sort of chimes with your tale. I can imagine that the original tooling wouldn't have been designed and made for longevity, more for low cost. Of  course, the Brit bike industry would have made tooling to last into the next century - but at a cost which made them uncompetitive.
When it got to the point where it couldn't produce parts which were acceptable quality to Honda, they would have got rid of it - probably for peanuts to the subcontractor who was running it for them. They then set it running to satisfy the aftermarket but with minimal investment to keep it running - which would show up in the lower quality.
That's my theory - sounds plausible to me in the absence of hard facts!

Still, the point remains, the 500 in my garage is 3 silencers short of a classic and those tulip ends do look good. If I can't get original OE build quality, I have to accept what I can have - it's surely going to be better than my 4-1 (which is going West in a couple of places) or a collection of salvage yard jobs with their own scratches, dents and holes!
The search continues . . .

[Tomb]

I can imagine that the original tooling wouldn't have been designed and made for longevity, more for low cost. Of  course, the Brit bike industry would have made tooling to last into the next century - but at a cost which made them uncompetitive.
When it got to the point where it couldn't produce parts which were acceptable quality to Honda, they would have got rid of it - probably for peanuts to the subcontractor who was running it for them. They then set it running to satisfy the aftermarket but with minimal investment to keep it running - which would show up in the lower quality.
That's my theory - sounds plausible to me in the absence of hard facts!

Nah!!!

As a Toolmaker who spent a long time making presstooling for a variety of manufacturers including VWAudi, Isuzu Trucks, Nippon Denso, Lucas (who were subcontracted to make ECU's for the new, at the time, Honda Prelude  .....I kid you not!!!!)......
   .......I can quite happily say NOPE!!!  A press tool, what Honda Tulip silencers will have been pressed on, is made to withstand a lot of wear that the materials exert as it slides and forms over the tool, even for a short run the tool will have had to be made to a certain standard, formers to a certain hardness (about 59-62 Rockwell C), otherwise it'd fail after a couple hundred run, the same standard that would also dictate that the tool would last for a long time, years. The tooling I worked on would do short production runs of 350,000 components, then come in for a checkup, then back out for another run several times a year, for years. I'm pretty sure that Honda won't have made that many 500/4 exhausts so the tooling would probably be still in useable nick if used correctly (decent setters are well paid for good reason)

If the quality of some of the stuff for sale is poor the tooling could have been abused but more likely not the original tooling.



I also worked on tooling for Baxi (boilers), Swan (kettles, toaster etc), Prestige (pressure cookers), anyone got a gas meter like this

Just my 2p

[StPeter]

I bow to your superior experience and knowledge, Tomb!
I know from the injection moulding world that soft tooling is sometimes used when production runs are short. They can be perfectly adequate and cost a lot less to make. I presume the same doesn't apply to press tooling.

Got two of your gas meters and a Baxi boiler here!

[matthewmosse]

I'm sure this will be a cycle of short runs followed by periods of unavailaility, quality will as always vary depending on who makes them on what tools, how skilled they are etc. The 500/4 is a appriciating classic with more and more bikes getting the £££ restoration treatment so supply will follow demand. Personally I find the cost and lifespan of a 4 into 4 system puts me off but tulip silencers are available from custom suppliers such as custom fastners - I doubt they'd fool anyone but they could give the general look and at £60 -£70 a pop(when I last looked) might leave some cash in the kitty for some custom made stainless downpipes - I'd be moderately tempted by that option once I've used up any cheap used pattern pipes I can wrangle. I quite fancy the idea of the fisk tail / velocette style silencers racked up in a 4 into 4 system too, different and could look good.

[basketcase]

I had an advisory on the last M-O-T about `excessive` noise with the original 4-4`s on!!! It passed ok with no advisory with a Marving on!! This system was almost twice as loud, so I swapped back to the original 4-4 ( complete with welded on patches) as I consider it to look more balanced than the 4-1. Saying that my first Honda was a F2 and I loved the look of that bike! Can`t wait `til someone reproduces a replacement....at a decent price.

[StPeter]

I had a look around for aftermarket pipes - the tulip type (cocktail shaker they call it in the custom world, I learned today) seems available in the US, advertised as "Made in England". I couldn't find anyone over here advertising them! They would look OK IMHO, as you say, Matthew, they aren't going to fool anyone.
Stainless is more expensive than mild steel. More difficult to work with, Tomb? I guess you could get a set made by a competent fabricator. Or a number of sets. I'm with you on the look of polished stainless, Oddjob. The philosophical question is what are you looking to achieve with your bike? - remanufacturing using modern technology and materials or "as built". I think the market for a stainless repro exhaust would be larger than that for rear mudguards because exhausts kill themselves!

Basketcase - and anyone else - what is a "decent price"?

[matthewmosse]

£400 would be right for me to buy a 4 into 4 stainless system that was a close (ish) match to original, any more and for me it would be too much, but then I'd be riding in all weathers so it's still not going to last as long as you might think (my bmw had khenin stainless pipes and a few winter trips to Cardiff in the snow crossing Brecon beacons had them looking well manky) Best solution I've seen to the rear guards is fiberglass painted same coulor as tank - That should last well and the chrome one can get fitted for nicer weather or shows.
Cocktail shaker silencer were definately in the last Custom Fastners catalouge I had, If you like I can drop in there and ask if they still do them if I remember.

[Tomb]

More difficult to work with, Tomb?

Not really, look at pressure cookers, stainless pots and pans and the like, all stainless pressed parts.

I've made several 4 into 1 systems for my bikes over the years out of 316 stainless (I had a free supply of 316 ), though 304 is recommended as 316 can be brittle on exhausts.

For the tulip silencers have you considered hydraulic forming from welded flat sheets? Today at work I was using a Tangye 1600psi water pump for NDT weld testing on 18 bar steam mains, whilst doing it I couldn't help thinking about the exhausts    ......hmmmm, one day

[StPeter]

Interesting stuff on the hydraulic forming, Tomb. Perhap's that's your "retire in luxury" card!
Wouldn't you get a sticky-out seam at the welded joint, though? and wouldn't repeatability be an issue? I'm always fascinated by how things are made but this is too much of a learning curve for me. And too many other "in progress" projects to complete first!

I had a look at cocktail shaker exhauts - attached is from British Cycle in the US. An upswept and a straight (as outlined) on each side could look quite pretty!

I'll continue my search to see if I can find some "originals" at something South of £extremepain,

[matthewmosse]

Stainless steel, as a rough rule of thumb it takes double the effort i.e. if you had a 2mm capacity folder for sheet steel it would only be suited to bending 1mm thick stainless. Also tends to work harden more easily and can distort like buggery from excess weld heat. Modern production methods can work round this, the shed tikerer can but it is harder to do than working with mild steel.

[basketcase]

I agree with MM, £400-£500 max, as I only paid just over that for the bike! Stainless would be better but the manufacturer would be on a loser as it would outlast standard steel systems and we wouldn`t be ordering anywhere near as many
How about a polished stainless rear mudguard?! Who`s up for giving it a try and making one?? How about you Tomb, plenty of experience in fabricating?

[Tomb]

Me and my big gob

Sorry but I've been down that road and got out. And what you're talking about is tooling up for repetition work, definitely not what I want to do.

Doing engineering one offs just doesn't pay. I once got £20 for 2 days machining parts for a joiner mate for his P11 Norton, my machine, my electric (and that eats a big hole in any pay). Later in the year I got a quote of £900 to put the roof spars up for a house, my mate the joiner offered to do it mates rates .......£400 if I helped, he was there 2 days    And the really stupid thing, we thought we'd done well to save £500

Sorry to waffle on in your thread, just wanted folk to know why I don't bother any more

[basketcase]

Sorry Tomb, it was only said tongue in cheek. No offence taken hopefully I was only wondering if anyone out there knew of anyone willing to give it a try.