Dresda Honda CB750 (Identification needed)

[K2-K6]

Quite alot of the pictures of the japauto bikes show this type of front wheel paired with a standdard looking cb750 spoke and drum rear setup. as yours appears to have a non std (dresda) bracket for the master cylinder it would suggest it's been modded to use an obvious match in wheel terms of another front wheel.

Endurance stuff of that period quite often had some unique sprocket carriers to give a quick release wheel with the chain and sprocket left on the swingarm to speed things up, could this be a possibility?

[Eric Frith]

If I were to revert back to wire spokes, can anyone tell me what hubs are likely to be a good choice to use ? (so I can look out for some auto jumble stuff)

Thanks

[rs_pete]

CB750 would be the obvious reply!
From what I remember Triumph were popular for rear disc and Locheed conversions. Though I think the spacing on most Honda wheels of the time made them pretty interchangeable so other Hondas than CB750 SOHC.
You already have the brakes so unless you were going all out for a front end upgrade, i.e. Ceriani or Metal Profile forks with Lockheed setup, sticking with Honda would give you the least issues.

[Bryanj]

Front 500/550/500twin/750 all same, rear realy 750 and if you want disc F1

[Eric Frith]

Thanks all, most helpful.

[SoyBoySigh]

BUMP!

Some fantastic links in this thread.

Not to mention, what a cool old bike! Some truly rare Unobtainium parts on there. I'd agree that it COULD be a Laverda front wheel. But it's just as likely an aftermarket rim, and many of them had a rather small core hub area at least on the earlier versions of such wheels. Laverda was well known for kitting their bikes with aftermarket parts - witness the famous "JOTA bars", made by RAASK and simply sold to Laverda in volume for use with their triple. Same deal with their Marzocchi Strada-I & Strada-II shocks. And their RIMS to boot!

Damn though, those TIRES are some choice vintage bike-porn in their own right!

The one-piece fiberglass bodywork in the DOHC style really reminds me of the "DIMO" bodywork. I've got some pics somewhere kicking around, which came as a photocopy insert with the DIMO brand AIR-BOX which I bought for my DOHC projects. Sort of a disappointing air-box, one gets the impression that it was built to work with some type of alternative frame, possibly the EGLI "spine" frame, definitely something with a mono-shock what with the cut-away gap in the rear wall of the air-box. Perhaps a Moto-Martin chassis? Well either way, the one-piece bodywork for the DOHC looked very similar to that pictured above, and was made to fit the OEM frame. I'll have to scan the photocopies and upload those pics....

Well whatever it IS, I'd love to see whether it's restored or not, and where all of the cool components went to.

Gotta say though, some very bad advice at the end of this thread.

First of all, the 750 drum is waaay over-built for the smaller models. More like the other way 'round, where you're better off putting the 500/550 spec drum onto the 750! I'm all for keeping a rear drum hub, heck a FRONT drum hub if you can get away with it! Far better to take the original hub and upgrade IT with some ventilation and possibly even some 2LS actuation via some later era's MX dirt-bike racer, some of which had a Magnesium shoe plate. There were some '60s Yamaha front 2LS drums which had the links and cams on the right-hand-side of the bike. Some really decent stuff could be done with a SMALLER rear drum than the 750 type. There are a ton of big-bore SOHC 750cc+ builds out there, running the 500/550 type hub on the back end. They're both 180mm, aren't they? The one's just got more mass and more heat-sink factor, that's all. I guess it all depends on your riding style, your method of braking - the old's-cool method was to split the stopping forces around 70/30 between front and rear wheels. Whereas the NEW school of thought has been to use primarily just the front brake, with the rear brake used to control the rear wheel's "SLIDE" and/or as a last ditch PANIC stop for when your "real" brakes fail!

And as for the NEXT bit of advice? Wow, talk about "out of the frying pan, onto the flooor"!

The SOHC CB750F1 wire-spoke rear disc hub? What a heavy unpolishable turd of a disc hub! I've got one for my DOHC "CB900K0 Bol Bomber", and I compared it to a spare Suzuki 4LS that I bought for my daughter's "KZ440LOL" - and they both weigh up the same! Mind you, even worse, I'm just talking about the center hub section. The Sprocket and carrier, the disc, the caliper - compare that to the little shoe plates, the shoes, the linkages - especially as light-weight as I've built 'em on the "KZ440LOL" with huge ventilation and weight shedding mated to 12%-14% wider shoes cut down from T500 2LS items, not to mention the 2LS linkages are 50% the weight of the 4LS version AND their thinner link rod is working in TENSION rather than compression - With the mods I've done PLUS a couple of sets of them T500 Titan's 2LS link assemblies, you could throw together a FAR far lighter 4LS hub, whereas the 'F1 rear disc hub is this ridiculous heavy thing and the weight's all up in the core of the hub, plus the cush-drive and the disc especially.

Now, there ARE some things you could do about that. Most notably, drill out the 9 rivets and swap the disc with a GL1000/CB550 front, OR cut the disc down to 276mm and use a caliper and hanger from around mid '80s like FT500, VF750F, CBX750F, CBR600F etc etc - or possibly even cut it down further and use some 260mm-ish, though I'm rather partial to making an adapter for the CB350F/CB400F front disc at 260mm and building an old's-cool cut-down carrier for a period-correct caliper.

But the best option, IMHO, is "The Front Hub Trick" where you use a front hub with swapped out bearings and a bolt-up cush-drive. A side benefit from THAT is you can use rims drilled for the HARLEY rear hub, which seem far more common on the ground in 2nd-hand and NOS stocks.

Another approach which I'm very interested in, is something I've seen done for a SHAFT-drive wire-spoke conversion, done on a CB900C CUSTOM wire-spoke chopper by "6pkrunner" wherein a 750 size drum was hollowed out side-to-side (like an elephant's cock-ring?) and the spooled-down SHAFT type hub was plugged into it, and welded up with a fillet weld in a ring around both sides. The center-line for chain-line and concentric alignment can be held in place with a series of holes drilled along the center-line of each, then threaded with bolts or simple pins, then afterwards you could pour some hot solder-braze into those holes to strengthen the joint even further.

A cool mod when you consider that the CB900C rear hub is the same as the GL1100 - and that the GL1100 rear hub can be used on the GL1200 - now EVERY type of Gold-Wing can have the wire-spoke rims! Myself, I'm partial to building a GL1200 based homage to the "DLF-1000" 'Wing based ENDURANCE racer.

But more to the point, you could use the same method to make a wire-spoke wheels for ANYTHING!!! CBR900RR? VFR single-sided rear hubs? Would take a custom-drilled rim, no doubt. But the HUB is the expensive part of THAT proposition.

The thing is, while the main advantage is in adapting the SHAFT-drive bikes, where there's little other option not without extensive machine-shop time on a chain-drive type hub - the REAL potential here is for making a more light-weight rear hub for the chain-drive bikes. Perhaps some type of later CBR style center core, stuffed into a drum hub of the 140mm range? Now THAT'S gotta beat the 'F1 SOHC rear disc hub for weight.

For off the shelf, there's the KZ1000A/KZ750B conical rear disc hub, which is hard to find used rims for (though I just saw one on eBay with my favourite rim on it the "Super-Akront" in 3.50x18" a super duper light-weight rim which can't be sealed up tubeless without the bead retention ridges, but even so it's THAT much more light-weight than all the other brands, that you can get away with the inner tube and still have a very light-weight wheel - it even fits the Comstar type FRONT rotor, (again, 276mm) where the center-hole matches one one of the bolt holes bolts straight up, so you'd either need four more holes in the hub or three more holes in the disc. Now that's a HUGE weight savings over the KZ all-steel one-piece rear disc. Even the other KZ type 4-bolt discs don't line up - But you know what 4-bolt disc I'd like to try? Yep - the 260mm CB350F/CB400F front rotor. THAT would kick butt. Especially if it were cross-drilled.

The only ISSUE I've got with the KZ1000A/KZ750B conical hub, is that the right-hand-side spoke flange is a chromed steel item that's held on with nothing but EPOXY - I had one damaged in a fire, but in an upright freezer for a stuck bearing at the time so it only had some burnt food stuck to it - when I scrubbed it in the sink, that spoke flange came right off, and with no evidence of a proper brazed joint in there just black crust that stank distinctly of epoxy. You COULD do some repairs to a hub like that, and come up with something truly awesome, preferably an alloy flange welded in it's place?

Well what I'M doing with the conical disc hub, is I'm cutting IT down to make the cush-drive to bolt to the GL1000 front hub - it's got the six cush elements so I figure it could really work out well. It would be especially nice if it could be cut down to bolt up to the GL hub AND have some little lugs left in place to insert to the recesses in the '78 'K type front hub. That way it's not just the bolts taking up that load. Of course, the cush itself would still need it's spoke flange cut off, and it might even need to be made a whole lot narrower in order to meet the chain-line of the DOHC rear, which I'm widening with the use of a CBX pro-link front sprocket - but yeah I predict the "dish" of that cush is gonna need to be cut down by half, with half of the lugs cut off the sprocket carrier, the rubbers cut down in half, etc etc. Even so - that's gonna be a VERY light-weight cush for a hub like this. And I'll be able to use regular GL1000/CB550 front discs, albeit with an off-set spacer of some sort.

The goal being to get the weight down around that of the KZ750B conical itself. Probably won't get all the way there, I suppose it depends on how much is taken off the cush.

-Sigh.

[SoyBoySigh]

Some MORE custom wheel Ideas which I think would be very cool, would be to take a Comstar -

Yeah, let's not discount the COMSTAR wheels, not when they can and should be as awesome as I'm about to describe:

Grab a rear wheel from a smaller model with the smaller drum hub, say CB400T or CB250N etc and replace IT'S hub core with something cut out of a modern CBR 5-spoke or 6-spoke hub for a Boomerang type Comstar from say, the XBR500 or thereabouts. You could use BILLET, but it's gonna cost an arm and a leg to remove mass and produce a functional light-weight hub from it - whereas the cast wheels are already 90% there - You've just gotta find one with enough "meat" around the outer hub circumference, at the bases of the cut-down spoke "stumps" if you will. Though at the same time, you're looking for something with a very light construction - best to avoid the versions with hollow spokes as with some of the Suzuki 3-spoke wheels - either way, you're looking for 5-spoke wheels for the early steel-plate and then alloy plate "Reverse" Comstars, and 6-spoke wheels (CBR600F2 perhaps?) for the "Boomerang" wheels and/or the later 6-point wheels from VF1000R, NS400R & NSR250 etc - the thing is, the NS400R rear hubs are already pretty darn light-weight, and can be rebuilt with VF1000R rear rims in 3.50x17" - so too with Boomerang rims which can be found in 3.50x17" (a good upgrade for CB1100F IMHO)

But then of course most of the BAD weight in these Comstar wheels isn't just in the HUB, it's the ridiculously over-built RIM, which is either double-walled in the early cases, or just incredibly thick in the case of the latter era Boomerang and 6-point versions.

But there's an ANSWER!

You'll rebuild the wheel with an Akront "NERVI" type rim. Very hard to find these rims, but some used wheels are out there for relatively "cheap" with 1.85x19", 2.50x18" and 3.00x16" "NERVI" rims on 'em. They're around 50% the weight of an equivalent sized OEM rim from a Comstar wheel (D.I.D. brand) So all put together, this could make for one hell of a set of RACING wheels, yet with the all original looks of the OEM wheels. I'm kicking myself for passing over a 5.75x18" Nervi type NOS rim. I wasn't aware at the time of the new 180/55ZR18 radials. Still a bit too wide for my DOHC build - but that thing would rock on a 2010+ CB1100, a bike which is just BEGGING for a set of vintage Comstar wheels! For my DOHC projects, I'd like a Comstar set to swap out with the wire-spoke wheels I'm building, in sizes of 2.50x18" with 3.50x18" (for my kid's soon starting "featherweight" 750 project which is already a formidable pile of parts) or 3.00x18" with 4.25x18" (for my "Bol Bomber" - which is an '82 Bol D'Or based homage to the '65 CB450K0 Black Bomber, of course.)

I'm also sort-of interested in some type of plug-insert type disc conversion, much like the old kits from pre 1975 vintage bikes, where a great big heavy billet insert stuffs into the old drum hub. Keeping in mind you've still got the Iron drum liner in there, so these wheels probably weigh as much as the drum AND the 'F1 disc hub put TOGETHER....

Blows my mind that "Cycle Exchange" actually still makes and sells that style of kit. Ridiculous. If anybody should be in this disc conversion business at ALL, there should be an on exchange basis WELD-UP service, doing the WELD-UP method - And you'd get business from EVERYWHERE. And a truly enterprising builder could use new material on the spoke flanges rather than scooping up all of the good used drum hubs out there, and that way they could optimize the spoke flange sizes and widths for the best strength AND with that standardization they could have the RIMS all drilled in batch production for some volume discounts - Though drums could still be used for when you've got a vintage period-correct rim to fill out.

Come to think of it, for those who are considering the 17" Super-Moto style rims, the more common 36-spoke types could be a good match for the CB350F/CB400F 4-bolt rotor type 36-spoke front hubs. Ah, but then I've found MY super-moto sized rims in FORTY spoke, drilled for Harley - they're still out there for relatively cheap on eBay, but when I scored MINE the guy had bought a warehouse full of the things and didn't know what to DO with 'em - and so I scored a 4.25x17" and a 5.00x17" for $39.99ea - At that price I couldn't turn 'em down. And I'll probably try and use 'em ONE of these days, either re-drilled for extra heavy-duty spokes and a regular GL1000 sized hub, for that GL1200 based "DLF" replica, or another shaft conversion I'd like to try would be a V65 Magna/Sabre based homage to the CZ Type 860 - Pretty much anywhere that the swing-arm clearances might prevent me from using my spare Akront 4.25x18" which is the rim I'd really RATHER use in either case - But the pairing of 3.50x16" Super-Akront up front, with a 5.00x17" rear, that's a decent set of wheels. The one cruiser-esque pairing I might try would be the spare AMF-era Harley XLH rear rim in 2.50x18", with the 4.25x17" - which would be an interesting yet subtle improvement on a standard GL1000 rim set of 1.85x19" with 2.50x17" - just a tad shorter up front and a wee bit wider of a more low-profile tire on the rear - but would probably pass for a regular GL1000 no problem - You'd just stand there squinting at it and say to yourself "Why's THIS one look so much better?" - These aforementioned OEM sizes on GL1000, they're the same sizes on the DOHC CB750K, the '78 CB750K, and the CB750A - so I suppose that's another place where you might make such a substitution. I suppose in ANY of these cases, I'd really rather use the 2.50x18" with 3.50x18" Super-Akront. AND/OR the 3.00x16" with 3.50x16" for that matter, which I see as a decent pairing for the smaller SOHC-4 models - I've put 3.00x16" front and rear on the "KZ440LOL" with low-profile Maxi-Scooter tires, 110/70-16 and 140/70-16 - basically scaled-down crotch-rocket tires. IMHO this would be far far preferable to using Super-Moto spec 17" rims on a bike like that, bikes where the fat 17" tires make the rest of the bike look puny and spindly. The net effect is like those same Super-Moto 17" rims on the bigger 750/900 models. I've also got 2.50x16" which could pair well with 3.00x16" rear, but I'm planning to use THAT as a rear wheel on a little Passport scooter, with something like 2.15x16" up front. Odd rim sizes like that were used on smaller TRACK bikes back in the '80s & '90s, stuff like the RS125R or RS250 etc. So too with the skinnier 17" rims, and you can still find odd-ball sizes like 2.15x17" or 2.50x17" - Every now and again you see folks using the "FRONT" rim from Super-Moto pairings, in 3.00x17" or 3.50x17", as a rear wheel for a slightly bigger Bias-Ply than the GL1000/CB750K8 standard, perhaps a 150/70 or 160/60 type of thing - sizes which appeared on later '80s models. So too with the 16" stuff where bikes like the FJ1100 used wider low-profile 16" tires to avoid that Cruiser/Bobber BALLOON tire style. ALL of this stuff is perfectly applicable to the wire-spoke stuff, just so long as they're up to the load-bearing index and speed rating which your BIKE is capable of.

Just sayin' - it can really pay off to "think outside of the box" when choosing rims as well as hubs, for your vintage build.

And even if you're looking for the standard 18" sizes, there are some awesome bargains in 2nd-hand Akront wheels of 2.15x18" & 2.50x18" - if you're willing to accept the 36-hole conical hubs they're laced to, usually coming from the European DIRT bikes of late '70s to early '80s extraction. Often as not, there's not much of a cush in 'em, and/or the drum will be on the same size as the sprocket. But you could rig up a cable-actuated rear brake for it. And if the bike's small enough to run a drum up front as well, I'd really like to see a hub swap on 'em, with the smaller drum from a 2.15x18" wheel stuffed into the 2.50x18", and vice-versa, and leave the sprocket off the front wheel of course. Some of those vintage MX conical drums are made from MAGNESIUM - Either way, it's about the cheapest way to get your hands on a nice Akront rim around a fully built wheel, so IF you can rationalize the HUBS I'd say go for it!

Another key piece of kit which somebody should make in batch production, would be for the bolt-up cush and disc spacer on the "Front Hub Trick" wheel. I realize there are some kits out there for YAMAHA front-to-rear wheel conversion, with the flat-track set, 'cause they want ANOTHER skinny 19" wheel on the bike () And I suppose that's probably gonna fit the Yamaha front hub which is another 6-bolt pattern, so there COULD be some potential in there. (And hey, if you DO dig the 19" rear wheel thing, I saw a 3.50x19" Akront rim on eBay a while back - ALMOST considered it.... - IMHO rims should either match front & rear, 18/18, 17/17, 16/16 - OR it should be smaller on the FRONT - like a 16/18 set from a VF1000F Interceptor or CBX750F etc, or the 16/17 pairings from later VF1000F-II and CBX750F-II, the VF1000R, etc. On the one hand, it's just plain sportier LOOKING, but it's also about the front end geometry as well - the 19" front rim should be abolished on most/all SOHC-4 and DOHC-4 builds. IMHO. At least, if you're more serious about performance than you are about original appearance?) Surely there's some potential for using that Yamaha kit. I've seen some rear wheels built using a later era Ducati bolt-up cush, from Y2K+ type of thing, where they had a 5-bolt cush element, and this worked with a 5-bolt front hub from a DOHC-4 'K model, or perhaps some other type of hub maybe a Harley rear hub itself, from the appearance of the hub in the photos. But hey there are TONS of different hubs which used a bolt-up cush-drive, from the early Lester & Morris mag wheels -

(((huge potential THERE, IMHO, to use the 3.00x16" REAR wheels as a front wheel, as they've got the smaller hub core once their cush is un-bolted, then dig up a 4.50x18" WELD-UP version of a matching style wheel - good potential for the 7-spoke Morris with Kawasaki rims that copied Morris after using authentic Morris rims on their first few KZ1000's, the Lester 7-spoke with Yamaha rims which copied THEM, and perhaps most interesting the BMW "Snowflake" style rims, with a KIMTAB 3.00x16" up front. Now THAT could look super cool on some type of K100/K75 based Endurance-Racer special, hey?)))

As well as the COMSTAR for that matter - some of the earliest prototype Comstar wheels from the RCB had a bolt-up cush. Many of the Bevel-Twin DUCATI models which had the cast/mag wheels, as well as the Laverda and Guzzi models which had the similarly styled/branded wheels, they ALL used bolt-up cush elements. So if nothing else, there's always a decent supply of OTHER bikes to source a 2nd-hand cush-drive FROM. But then again, it's probably a lot cheaper to get a beat-up old drum hub, or even a bent/cracked/damaged cast/mag wheel, and cut IT'S cush out, sawzall the cast spokes off of it then take THAT hub to the lathe and cut the cush out - OR if you're on a budget of course, do as much with a hacksaw as far as you can possibly get BEFORE taking it to the machine-shop, and perhaps they'll only have to smooth out and level the mating face where it meets with the front hub you're using for a wheel.

PERSONALLY, I'm partial to a drum back there. I'd put the 750 spec drum on the rear end of my DOHC-4 985cc Bol Bomber, but the truth be told the 4.25x18" Akront rims look like crap with the drum hub in 'em. And the 160/60ZR18 sport-touring radial tires seem way out of date for a rear drum. But for the 736cc DOHC I'm planning to build for the kid, I'll throw a drum on THAT bike no question. 'Cause the "Super-Akront" rim in 3.50x18" looks fantastic with the drum in it. So too with the 140/70-18 Pirelli tire that I've got on the Comstar wheel right now - that would look just fine with a drum.

Though I'll be honest, I feel that all of the modern tires look like crap just in and of themselves. What we all NEED are some reproduction RACING tires, of mid to late '70s design, perhaps some AVON stuff? I'd love to see the 160/60ZR18 with the tread patterns of the BRIDGESTONE rubber of the early SOHC and first year Gold-Wing etc.

Then maybe some of these more fantastic restorations, let alone the nut & bolt replicas of the '60s RC-series racers, could look fantastic while sitting still waiting for their rider, and not just while the wheels are spinning and you can't see the tread. It's depressing to see a photo shoot of an RC-181 replica with the same hideous Bridgestone Battlax tires as I've stuck on '80s CB750F's - A bike like that deserves even a set of TIRES that look fantastic. They wouldn't even have to be the best most stickiest tires on the tarmac - we'd all still buy at least the one set per bike, for when it's finished and we wanna shoot our initial "Build Completed" photo series! And that represents a heck of a lot of tires. Not to mention all of the late '70s Racers which are being restored now, the bikes where the 3.00x18" and 3.50x18" rims first made their debut

It's either that, or I'm gonna wind up "pulling a Burt Munro" with a set of lino-print engraving knives on a Bridgestone Battlax tire. Just carve the pattern of sipes that I WANT into the tire.....

Yeah, well - ANYWAY - I'd really like to see whether the bike in this thread was ever completed.

-Sigh.

[JamesH]

Sigh. You take the award for the 'longest first two posts ever on the uk sohc forum' hands down. Welcome to the forum mate...are you a Novelist ? ;-)...

[AshimotoK0]

'Kin brilliant Sigh ... I am no longer the No.1 anorak on here  ...keep 'em coming mate ! Welcome to the mad world of UK SOHC

[Rozabikes Tim]

Is your pen name "Leo Tolstoy" by any chance!

Welcome to the forum.

[Nurse Julie]

I thought the SPAM filter was broken 
Welcome

[Johnwebley]

welcome Sigh.those are some awesome posts,full of good info,

 welcome to the fun palace !!