Author Topic: 500 four rectifier  (Read 9012 times)

Online Bryanj

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2014, 07:10:17 AM »
Thats because the 450 doesn't have a regulator, its all done by switching wires in the light switch

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2014, 08:04:48 AM »
Why not use the the regulator from a CB250/350K?  It does the same as the Zener on Triumphs but probably a more elegant solution and and acts as a current dump to prevent 'Boiling the battery' as Bryan points in his post. It's a potted unit in an aluminium can with two M6 mount screws.The Triumph had a heatsink and was mounted between forks for air cooling as I remember. I can dig out the circuit diagram tonight if you wish on how to connect the Honda unit, it's 3 wire (Zener is two wire). I have the Genuine Honda Shop manual (paper copy)  from 1969 for the CB250/350K0 and it gives a good description on how the single-phase Honda alternator/battery/lighting charge circuit works.

The reulator was made by Hitachi. Thinks its RS-21 model.
Its like This (Any year UK CB250K is the same): -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-70-73-SL350-CL350-CB350-Voltage-Regulator-RS21-/160451265108
 

Cheers ..  AshD
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 08:10:36 AM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2014, 09:15:05 PM »
Why not use the the regulator from a CB250/350K?  It does the same as the Zener on Triumphs but probably a more elegant solution and and acts as a current dump to prevent 'Boiling the battery' as Bryan points in his post. It's a potted unit in an aluminium can with two M6 mount screws.The Triumph had a heatsink and was mounted between forks for air cooling as I remember. I can dig out the circuit diagram tonight if you wish on how to connect the Honda unit, it's 3 wire (Zener is two wire). I have the Genuine Honda Shop manual (paper copy)  from 1969 for the CB250/350K0 and it gives a good description on how the single-phase Honda alternator/battery/lighting charge circuit works.

The regulator was made by Hitachi. Thinks its RS-21 model.
Its like This (Any year UK CB250K is the same): -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-70-73-SL350-CL350-CB350-Voltage-Regulator-RS21-/160451265108
 

Cheers ..  AshD

Checked the '69 250/350 manual.
There are six windings on the field coil of the single phase alternator. Two are connected in a series arrangement used for daytime charging and after full wave rectification the +v  side is fed into the regulator.

Please see:.     http://www.globalmoto.com.br/imageseletrica/honda-cb250-cb350.jpg

Also looking at this seems the  '66 CB450 twin 'Black Bomber' did not have this type of regulator but  gained one in '68

http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/57-electrical-discussion/5976-1966-cb450-ko-wiring-problem.html


Cheers.... AshD
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2014, 07:59:59 AM »
Why not use the the regulator from a CB250/350K?  It does the same as the Zener on Triumphs but probably a more elegant solution and and acts as a current dump to prevent 'Boiling the battery' as Bryan points in his post. It's a potted unit in an aluminium can with two M6 mount screws.The Triumph had a heatsink and was mounted between forks for air cooling as I remember. I can dig out the circuit diagram tonight if you wish on how to connect the Honda unit, it's 3 wire (Zener is two wire). I have the Genuine Honda Shop manual (paper copy)  from 1969 for the CB250/350K0 and it gives a good description on how the single-phase Honda alternator/battery/lighting charge circuit works.

The regulator was made by Hitachi. Thinks its RS-21 model.
Its like This (Any year UK CB250K is the same): -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-70-73-SL350-CL350-CB350-Voltage-Regulator-RS21-/160451265108
 

Cheers ..  AshD

Checked the '69 250/350 manual.
There are six windings on the field coil of the single phase alternator. Two are connected in a series arrangement used for daytime charging and after full wave rectification the +v  side is fed into the regulator.

Please see:.     http://www.globalmoto.com.br/imageseletrica/honda-cb250-cb350.jpg

Also looking at this seems the  '66 CB450 twin 'Black Bomber' did not have this type of regulator but  gained one in '68

http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/57-electrical-discussion/5976-1966-cb450-ko-wiring-problem.html


Cheers.... AshD

Checking the CB250/350K0 1969 parts book I have (a Godsend!!)  the regulator is describes as REGULATOR,pointless and has Honda P/N 31400-292-670

The middle Number 292 denotes CB450K1/K2 so it sounds like the part was developed for the later CB450  and used on the CB250/350K !!

http://www.vsource.org/VFR-RVF_files/BHondaPCNs.htm

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-REGULATOR-31400-292-670-CB500T-CB200-CB350-CB175-CB450-CB360-CJ360-CL175-/290973244434

Cheers.... AshD
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 08:02:52 AM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline Lobo

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2014, 01:27:44 AM »
Hi Mjc,

Just to clarify the basics as it might help explain.... and Brian / Ash, set me straight if wrong. Whilst I fiddle with electrics on my bikes, cars, boat, Mrs Lobo's kitchen stuff (which is never allowed to die) ... & er, a fishpond .... I cannot lay claim to your Honda / motorcycle experience / backgrounds.

First up, the original question to this thread was could you use a CB500 RECTIFIER, and I maintain 'yes'... just using 2/3 of its branches, ie I basically stand by my wiring diagram on p1 in this respect - whether you do / don't modify the headlamp wiring. (& I'd be temped to if you ride with lights on 24/7 as less dependant upon the headlamp switch / handlebar loom to be in tip-top shape.... assuming you fit a rectifier)

Moving on.. and forgive me for simplifying in parts..

In terms of voltage regulation your 'older' Honda has a different type generator, ie it uses a spinning permanent magnet to energise the stator field, versus an 'electro-magnet' used on later CB bikes. The big, and elegant difference with the latter, is that you can control the 'electro-magnet' (called field coil) by varying the electrical power to it, eg less power in and the field coil become less 'powerful' in the magnetic sense, in turn exciting the stator windings less & thereby causing the generator output voltage to drop. Elegant...why?...because there is no wastage in the system, ie you basically produce what you need. So, how do you vary the input to the field coil?.... it's done via the Voltage regulator which senses loom voltage, and when approximately at 14.5VDC says "Ey up, enough!"... and switches an internal set of points to lessen its electrical output (using an internal resistor) to the field coil.

Now, your older CB has a permanent magnet generator (PMG), ie the above field coil does not exist, rather it only has a rotating magnet of constant strength. Problem for Honda here is choosing 'what's the best strength' - a difficult task given the range of engine rpm and electrical loads the bike will encounter. A compromise can only result, because at low RPM / heavy loads the generator likely won't produce enough power, whereas at high RPM it'd happily boil the battery. (To help minimise the compromise further the wiring design incorporated two available outputs from the generator, ie by switching in an extra winding at headlamp switch ON)

Back to your PMG.... stator winding output is in proportion to engine RPM,... no ifs or buts. So, if it's electrical output is too high (eg high rpm riding) how do you control it.... well, by using the battery on electrically simple bikes (which ain't optimum to say the least).... or by putting a Zener diode downstream of the rectifier; ie between the rectifier & battery. The Zener works by only allowing current to pass upto a certain voltage... and then 'caps' it at that. Elegant.... nope; all surplus power is transformed into heat, which is then soaked away to a large air-cooled heat exchanger. And worse, this is power that in the more modern set up, would have gone to your back wheel...

Ash suggests an alternative, more modern 'pointless' regulator; this type senses loom voltage, and at excess simply shorts a generator stator coil to earth. Elegant ... well better, but not best, as in doing so makes the generator harder to spin (as in how idle rpm drops with lights on?); again robbing your back wheel of useful power.

Bottom line, voltage regulators designed for later field coil set-ups are different animals to the earlier PMG offerings. They do the same job in terms of regulating voltage, ie have the same name, but work in a very different way.

From what I read the Zener type set-up is more agricultural / less reliable & likely harder to install versus Ash's suggestion.

Cheers,
Simon

1st pictorial of what a PMG setup would basically be (red magnet) & 2nd what a field coil setup woul look like.


« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 01:36:25 AM by Lobo »

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2014, 08:03:15 AM »
I suppose the original question was, can the 3-phase rectifier be used in place of a single phase one in the CB450 and it can be as suggested. Looking at the original post it was for a CB450 from '72 which should definitely have been originally fitted with the 292 'pointless' regulator. I suppose you can describe it as agricultural but we are talking 40 year ago technology, honda introducing the 3-phase system in '69 for the CB750 Sandcast and. Obviously, the later Honda 3-phase system is much better because it uses three phase stator  and the output controlled by adjusting the current through the field coil with no permanent magnets involved and no brushes, unlike car alternators of the period. The 292 P/N  regulator  uses a thyristor to current dump when necessary so is only one up from the Triumph zener method and not particularly elegant as you say. BTW just won one of the 292 regs on Ebay for £8 inc post.

Cheers... AshD
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline Lobo

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2014, 10:00:49 AM »
Hi Ash,

I never described the pointless regulator as agricultural! (rather Zener diode system). God forbid... rather I am constantly in awe just how far ahead of the times Honda were!

Cheers,
Simon

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2014, 12:53:36 PM »
Point taken Simon! Somewhere in my loft I have a spare one of those 'pointless' regulators, that I will have to de-pot someday and trace out the circuit.

My Genuine 'shop manual' for the 250/350k0 is really informative as goes into battery chemistry, rectifier theory  etc. etc. A really good grounding in bike electrics for me as a school boy back in 'the day'. Their 3-phase charging system is really neat in the way that there are no brushes on the field coil, it works by inducing magnetism into the rotor on the end of the crank.
BTW I have replaced individual diodes on the early CB750 3-phase recifier. You just need a good heavy duty soldering iron and some good old tin/lead solder. I also gave a spare diode to Rob with the K7 on here and he did the same too. Have not seen any posts from him since I became 'active' again.

Cheers .... AshD
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline Lobo

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2014, 01:09:33 PM »
Aye, terribly cunning the brushless generator... whilst the later manuals v.disappointing on how it all works.
Without google & blowing up the missuses Hoover, hair dryers etc every now & then.. I'd be lost.
Simon

Offline Woodside

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2014, 07:01:27 PM »
Guys thanks for all the input....

When I started this thead and put.  "Just a quick one"

How wrong was I.

Anyway just so you all know I am I fact an electrician by trade an am still contracting but I kinda lean to domestic/commercial and seem to always get involved in 3phase machinery repairs .?

But I am the first to admit vehicle wiring is an art form ......a sort of alchemy at times?

But give me a wiring diagram or simple instructions its just another day I the office.

I keep reading the posts and I must say I really don't know which way to go right now.   

Like  I said before all I have at the moment is the 3 yellows from the generator...I will only be running front / rear lights plus brake light ...and because some one has removed the kickstart I will have to rely on the starter motor
And as it was pointed out to me I really don't want to be boiling battery's .....

So I guess what I'm asking for now is in your opinions which would be the simplest solution and possibly the neatest?

And thanks again to you all

Offline Woodside

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2014, 07:08:35 PM »
Here's the project lads?

Offline Bitsa (Ralph Wright - RIP)

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2014, 07:35:06 PM »
Nice
Love the 450/500 twin engines.I would stick standard loom back on and just use what I need for the bike rec/reg on off lights etc.I have never had the privalage of a cooked battery.Its always been flat battery cos it stopped charging.
Cheers
Bitsa
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 07:42:52 PM by Bitsa »
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Offline Woodside

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2014, 07:48:30 PM »
Sadly I don't have a loom so it really is design and build???

Also I was going to put something along the lines of a "racing batteries" high performance lightweight lithium battery on it...

Will that make a difference ...I know they are small and powerful but I did wonder if it was more critical to get charging correct?

Offline Bitsa (Ralph Wright - RIP)

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2014, 08:39:03 PM »
MJC,
Sorry mate never done the thing you are attempting but never the less anything can be done.Going to basics you have to make the alternator charge your battery.You will need rec/reg to convert this, can be separate or combined.When you turn on lighting this makes the alternator kick out more to compensate.If I lived near to you would love to spend the hours with you to achive your goal.God I wish I was 40 years younger now I just can not get my head around this anymore.
Wish you all the best
Cheers
Bitsa
PS some of the younger guys might have more ideas keep persisting
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Offline Yoshi823

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Re: 500 four rectifier
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2014, 09:51:59 PM »
Hi guys just a quick one.
Does anyone know if a 72 500/4 rectifier 5 wire will work ok on a 72 cb450 twin
Thanks in advance
Sorry i dont know but if it doesnt sell me the rectifier cos i need one

I have a new & unused genuine Honda rectifier if you need one. PM me

« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 09:54:43 PM by Yoshi823 »
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