Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: Woodside on February 19, 2014, 09:47:22 PM
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Hi guys just a quick one.
Does anyone know if a 72 500/4 rectifier 5 wire will work ok on a 72 cb450 twin
Thanks in advance
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Hi guys just a quick one.
Does anyone know if a 72 500/4 rectifier 5 wire will work ok on a 72 cb450 twin
Thanks in advance
Sorry i dont know but if it doesnt sell me the rectifier cos i need one
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Without seeing it I would guess yes. I took one straight of a 750 for my 550.
I used one from a Superdream for a Suzuki GSX 750esd.
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... can't see any issues, its job is to simply convert alternating current from the spinning generator to a form of 'flat line' direct current (ie regulated) fit for charging the battery. In other words it doesn't care which bike its on...
This said, it you were going to put it on an ocean liner it'd fail as not man enough for those loads.... but your going down a notch slightly & I personally can't see any problems.
....yea, I know.... YAWN!
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Don't think so as the 450 generator has "switched" coils via the lights on/off switch
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Ok
So rectifying wise it should do the job.....but I'm guessing it being switched via the lights it steps up some to.cope with the extra load...
The 450 it's going on only has front / rear plus brake light.
Other than that it's pretty much for charging the battery so can I illiminate the switched coil?
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Mjc... I really should 'consider' before posting! Have now done a bit of background grubbing on the CB450 and, typically, come across differing wiring diagrams, differing 'informations'.... it all gets so bloody difficult when something's just not in your hands...
It seems your bike has a permanent magnet generator (no generator exciter coil).... and some sources suggest no regulator... as the charging setup just so relatively weak. Dunno, again, Brian / any older CB riders (ie the bikes, not the individuals!) might be better qualified to help.
But, here goes my take on it.
Brian (as always) is correct that headlamp switching is involved... one source of info I read / wiring diagram says the switch 'simply' provides / connects one 'raw AC' winding up to the lights - ie the lights run on 12v AC. (seems unlikely I'd have thought). And yet another diagram / words of wisdom suggest that the generator normally supplies 2/3 power, but at lights on adds in another coil to give full power.
My best guess, is the latter, with the white & yellow (generator) wires being connected at lights ON. From the 'best' wiring diagrams I can find I'd suggest you directly connect the white / yellow loom wires within the headlamp bowl (tape the switch connections up)... and then connect the pink / yellow wires from the generator to any 2 Yellows of your CB500 rectifier. And then, if you have a voltmeter, confirm charging voltage all in limits.
Sorry can't be of more help,
Simon
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Cheers Simon
When you say "sorry I wasn't any more help". Are you kidding? Other than coming and wiring it up for me that's great......and that's not a hint....
I guess I should have said up top that I have no loom and all wiring is to be made from scratch.
But thanks again that's fantastic
Best tool in the box this week "sohc forum"
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You're welcome, but sorry... no guarantees. Much written on CB450 forums, the electrical system does not seem particularly, er, robust! Read one alarming bit where the electrics failed and fault eventually traced to the tacho cable being disconnected.... this was the handlebars 'Earth' since the steering head bearings were failing to pass current! Anyways, will be interested to hear how it pans out.
Btw, have you a voltage regulator in the system?
Oh, and please... anyone out there have better / hands-on knowledge of old CBs & this topic speak up, I'm no guru & working a bit blind from Google bits'n'bobs.
Cheers again,
Simon
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Hi simon
Thanks again
I reckon I can sort this now.....
I only need it to charge the battery so it will keep the starter happy.....
I will be fitting lights maybe sometime....I can't load a picture at the moment of the project but I will try again soon....
It has no wiring as we speak so its all abit of a work in progress .....arnt they all???
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If you wire it up permanently fully charging, any time you run with the lights off you will boil the battery and any time with the lights on it don't quite charge enough , Tucked if you do and same if you don't!!!!
Only answer is emulate a 70's Triumph and fit a well cooled, high amp Zener diode
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Yup Mjc, Bryan has a point which is why I asked in the last post "do you have a voltage regulator in the system?"
If not, can I suggest you leave the headlamp wiring as Honda designed..
If yes, then wire as the sketch... or Bryan's suggestion. (a Zener diode only allows a certain voltage to flow... think I saw your generator is capable of 110W implying you'd need a 10A Zener minimum)
With electric start, congested / slow roads and our tendency to drive with lights on 24/7 I'd be reckoning to wire it in the 'full charge ahead' option!
On a couple of wiring diagrams I saw there was no regulator... leaving me to think the perm magnetic generator is pretty 'weak' and the regulation left to the battery in the system. This too would explain the supplemental winding for 'lights on'.
But... I've also seen CB450 wiring diags showing a regulator. So, confused.
Anyways, enjoy the fiddling...
Simon.
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Ok
I found this in my box of treasure?
Perhaps it will do the job
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Nope, thats for a gereator with a wound field coil (400,500,550,750). Yours is a permanent magnet rotor. The only thing that will work properly is the correctly wired original type switches or wire it all permanently charging and use a zener.
You seem to be intent on going your own way and not listening mate
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No Bryan
I am listening I honestlythought that was it....
Thanks for putting me right.
I'll be looking into a zener diode this week then. The only reason I have not yet is because I was certain I had a regulator somewhere but I was not aware it was the wrong one....
Or indeed no good what so ever
And once again I appreciate all the help
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Thats because the 450 doesn't have a regulator, its all done by switching wires in the light switch
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Why not use the the regulator from a CB250/350K? It does the same as the Zener on Triumphs but probably a more elegant solution and and acts as a current dump to prevent 'Boiling the battery' as Bryan points in his post. It's a potted unit in an aluminium can with two M6 mount screws.The Triumph had a heatsink and was mounted between forks for air cooling as I remember. I can dig out the circuit diagram tonight if you wish on how to connect the Honda unit, it's 3 wire (Zener is two wire). I have the Genuine Honda Shop manual (paper copy) from 1969 for the CB250/350K0 and it gives a good description on how the single-phase Honda alternator/battery/lighting charge circuit works.
The reulator was made by Hitachi. Thinks its RS-21 model.
Its like This (Any year UK CB250K is the same): -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-70-73-SL350-CL350-CB350-Voltage-Regulator-RS21-/160451265108
Cheers .. AshD
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Why not use the the regulator from a CB250/350K? It does the same as the Zener on Triumphs but probably a more elegant solution and and acts as a current dump to prevent 'Boiling the battery' as Bryan points in his post. It's a potted unit in an aluminium can with two M6 mount screws.The Triumph had a heatsink and was mounted between forks for air cooling as I remember. I can dig out the circuit diagram tonight if you wish on how to connect the Honda unit, it's 3 wire (Zener is two wire). I have the Genuine Honda Shop manual (paper copy) from 1969 for the CB250/350K0 and it gives a good description on how the single-phase Honda alternator/battery/lighting charge circuit works.
The regulator was made by Hitachi. Thinks its RS-21 model.
Its like This (Any year UK CB250K is the same): -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-70-73-SL350-CL350-CB350-Voltage-Regulator-RS21-/160451265108
Cheers .. AshD
Checked the '69 250/350 manual.
There are six windings on the field coil of the single phase alternator. Two are connected in a series arrangement used for daytime charging and after full wave rectification the +v side is fed into the regulator.
Please see:. http://www.globalmoto.com.br/imageseletrica/honda-cb250-cb350.jpg
Also looking at this seems the '66 CB450 twin 'Black Bomber' did not have this type of regulator but gained one in '68
http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/57-electrical-discussion/5976-1966-cb450-ko-wiring-problem.html
Cheers.... AshD
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Why not use the the regulator from a CB250/350K? It does the same as the Zener on Triumphs but probably a more elegant solution and and acts as a current dump to prevent 'Boiling the battery' as Bryan points in his post. It's a potted unit in an aluminium can with two M6 mount screws.The Triumph had a heatsink and was mounted between forks for air cooling as I remember. I can dig out the circuit diagram tonight if you wish on how to connect the Honda unit, it's 3 wire (Zener is two wire). I have the Genuine Honda Shop manual (paper copy) from 1969 for the CB250/350K0 and it gives a good description on how the single-phase Honda alternator/battery/lighting charge circuit works.
The regulator was made by Hitachi. Thinks its RS-21 model.
Its like This (Any year UK CB250K is the same): -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-70-73-SL350-CL350-CB350-Voltage-Regulator-RS21-/160451265108
Cheers .. AshD
Checked the '69 250/350 manual.
There are six windings on the field coil of the single phase alternator. Two are connected in a series arrangement used for daytime charging and after full wave rectification the +v side is fed into the regulator.
Please see:. http://www.globalmoto.com.br/imageseletrica/honda-cb250-cb350.jpg
Also looking at this seems the '66 CB450 twin 'Black Bomber' did not have this type of regulator but gained one in '68
http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/57-electrical-discussion/5976-1966-cb450-ko-wiring-problem.html
Cheers.... AshD
Checking the CB250/350K0 1969 parts book I have (a Godsend!!) the regulator is describes as REGULATOR,pointless and has Honda P/N 31400-292-670
The middle Number 292 denotes CB450K1/K2 so it sounds like the part was developed for the later CB450 and used on the CB250/350K !!
http://www.vsource.org/VFR-RVF_files/BHondaPCNs.htm
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-REGULATOR-31400-292-670-CB500T-CB200-CB350-CB175-CB450-CB360-CJ360-CL175-/290973244434
Cheers.... AshD
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Hi Mjc,
Just to clarify the basics as it might help explain.... and Brian / Ash, set me straight if wrong. Whilst I fiddle with electrics on my bikes, cars, boat, Mrs Lobo's kitchen stuff (which is never allowed to die) ... & er, a fishpond .... I cannot lay claim to your Honda / motorcycle experience / backgrounds.
First up, the original question to this thread was could you use a CB500 RECTIFIER, and I maintain 'yes'... just using 2/3 of its branches, ie I basically stand by my wiring diagram on p1 in this respect - whether you do / don't modify the headlamp wiring. (& I'd be temped to if you ride with lights on 24/7 as less dependant upon the headlamp switch / handlebar loom to be in tip-top shape.... assuming you fit a rectifier)
Moving on.. and forgive me for simplifying in parts..
In terms of voltage regulation your 'older' Honda has a different type generator, ie it uses a spinning permanent magnet to energise the stator field, versus an 'electro-magnet' used on later CB bikes. The big, and elegant difference with the latter, is that you can control the 'electro-magnet' (called field coil) by varying the electrical power to it, eg less power in and the field coil become less 'powerful' in the magnetic sense, in turn exciting the stator windings less & thereby causing the generator output voltage to drop. Elegant...why?...because there is no wastage in the system, ie you basically produce what you need. So, how do you vary the input to the field coil?.... it's done via the Voltage regulator which senses loom voltage, and when approximately at 14.5VDC says "Ey up, enough!"... and switches an internal set of points to lessen its electrical output (using an internal resistor) to the field coil.
Now, your older CB has a permanent magnet generator (PMG), ie the above field coil does not exist, rather it only has a rotating magnet of constant strength. Problem for Honda here is choosing 'what's the best strength' - a difficult task given the range of engine rpm and electrical loads the bike will encounter. A compromise can only result, because at low RPM / heavy loads the generator likely won't produce enough power, whereas at high RPM it'd happily boil the battery. (To help minimise the compromise further the wiring design incorporated two available outputs from the generator, ie by switching in an extra winding at headlamp switch ON)
Back to your PMG.... stator winding output is in proportion to engine RPM,... no ifs or buts. So, if it's electrical output is too high (eg high rpm riding) how do you control it.... well, by using the battery on electrically simple bikes (which ain't optimum to say the least).... or by putting a Zener diode downstream of the rectifier; ie between the rectifier & battery. The Zener works by only allowing current to pass upto a certain voltage... and then 'caps' it at that. Elegant.... nope; all surplus power is transformed into heat, which is then soaked away to a large air-cooled heat exchanger. And worse, this is power that in the more modern set up, would have gone to your back wheel...
Ash suggests an alternative, more modern 'pointless' regulator; this type senses loom voltage, and at excess simply shorts a generator stator coil to earth. Elegant ... well better, but not best, as in doing so makes the generator harder to spin (as in how idle rpm drops with lights on?); again robbing your back wheel of useful power.
Bottom line, voltage regulators designed for later field coil set-ups are different animals to the earlier PMG offerings. They do the same job in terms of regulating voltage, ie have the same name, but work in a very different way.
From what I read the Zener type set-up is more agricultural / less reliable & likely harder to install versus Ash's suggestion.
Cheers,
Simon
1st pictorial of what a PMG setup would basically be (red magnet) & 2nd what a field coil setup woul look like.
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I suppose the original question was, can the 3-phase rectifier be used in place of a single phase one in the CB450 and it can be as suggested. Looking at the original post it was for a CB450 from '72 which should definitely have been originally fitted with the 292 'pointless' regulator. I suppose you can describe it as agricultural but we are talking 40 year ago technology, honda introducing the 3-phase system in '69 for the CB750 Sandcast and. Obviously, the later Honda 3-phase system is much better because it uses three phase stator and the output controlled by adjusting the current through the field coil with no permanent magnets involved and no brushes, unlike car alternators of the period. The 292 P/N regulator uses a thyristor to current dump when necessary so is only one up from the Triumph zener method and not particularly elegant as you say. BTW just won one of the 292 regs on Ebay for £8 inc post.
Cheers... AshD
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Hi Ash,
I never described the pointless regulator as agricultural! (rather Zener diode system). God forbid... rather I am constantly in awe just how far ahead of the times Honda were!
Cheers,
Simon
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Point taken Simon! Somewhere in my loft I have a spare one of those 'pointless' regulators, that I will have to de-pot someday and trace out the circuit.
My Genuine 'shop manual' for the 250/350k0 is really informative as goes into battery chemistry, rectifier theory etc. etc. A really good grounding in bike electrics for me as a school boy back in 'the day'. Their 3-phase charging system is really neat in the way that there are no brushes on the field coil, it works by inducing magnetism into the rotor on the end of the crank.
BTW I have replaced individual diodes on the early CB750 3-phase recifier. You just need a good heavy duty soldering iron and some good old tin/lead solder. I also gave a spare diode to Rob with the K7 on here and he did the same too. Have not seen any posts from him since I became 'active' again.
Cheers .... AshD
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Aye, terribly cunning the brushless generator... whilst the later manuals v.disappointing on how it all works.
Without google & blowing up the missuses Hoover, hair dryers etc every now & then.. I'd be lost.
Simon
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Guys thanks for all the input....
When I started this thead and put. "Just a quick one"
How wrong was I.
Anyway just so you all know I am I fact an electrician by trade an am still contracting but I kinda lean to domestic/commercial and seem to always get involved in 3phase machinery repairs .?
But I am the first to admit vehicle wiring is an art form ......a sort of alchemy at times?
But give me a wiring diagram or simple instructions its just another day I the office.
I keep reading the posts and I must say I really don't know which way to go right now.
Like I said before all I have at the moment is the 3 yellows from the generator...I will only be running front / rear lights plus brake light ...and because some one has removed the kickstart I will have to rely on the starter motor
And as it was pointed out to me I really don't want to be boiling battery's .....
So I guess what I'm asking for now is in your opinions which would be the simplest solution and possibly the neatest?
And thanks again to you all
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Here's the project lads?
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Nice
Love the 450/500 twin engines.I would stick standard loom back on and just use what I need for the bike rec/reg on off lights etc.I have never had the privalage of a cooked battery.Its always been flat battery cos it stopped charging.
Cheers
Bitsa
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Sadly I don't have a loom so it really is design and build???
Also I was going to put something along the lines of a "racing batteries" high performance lightweight lithium battery on it...
Will that make a difference ...I know they are small and powerful but I did wonder if it was more critical to get charging correct?
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MJC,
Sorry mate never done the thing you are attempting but never the less anything can be done.Going to basics you have to make the alternator charge your battery.You will need rec/reg to convert this, can be separate or combined.When you turn on lighting this makes the alternator kick out more to compensate.If I lived near to you would love to spend the hours with you to achive your goal.God I wish I was 40 years younger now I just can not get my head around this anymore.
Wish you all the best
Cheers
Bitsa
PS some of the younger guys might have more ideas keep persisting
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Hi guys just a quick one.
Does anyone know if a 72 500/4 rectifier 5 wire will work ok on a 72 cb450 twin
Thanks in advance
Sorry i dont know but if it doesnt sell me the rectifier cos i need one
I have a new & unused genuine Honda rectifier if you need one. PM me
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/WiNot_Rhencullen/Snaps/20091125_24.jpg)
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How about building your own loom but use the Honda wiring charge circuit as original as attached using the correct voltage reg. I got one last night delivered free off Ebay £8.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201040343098?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
Lithium-ion batteries not good at low temperatures and don't like deep discharge. The correct controllers (complicated) prevent them fully discharging.
Cheers... AshD
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1974-Honda-CB450-CB-450-Wiring-Harness-Solenoid-Regulator-Rectifier-Flasher-/151244436207?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2336def2ef
Bit expensive on postage ... shame.. but everything you need and more plus it has the later silicon (rather than selenium) rectifier. The rectifier is single phase and also fitted to later models CB/CL/ 250/350 twins.
Cheers .. AshD
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.... and here's my £4 Heath-Robinson offering! Ash, can you verify the wiring diagram ok pls...
1st up you'll need to take your junk drawer 'Field Coil Voltage Regulator', make sure its ok and then do minor surgery to it. Don't have one in my hand, and I wouldn't think hard... esp given your trade.
There's a live in (black connector), an earth (Green) and a white.... whose output will be in accordance with the points position. What you need to do Mjc is organise that white to be open circuit normally (points UP) and black wire (ie loom) voltage when points switch to the down position.
Then, from Maplins buy a £4 12v/15A minimum SPDT relay.
eg http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/12v-30a-dc-spdt-automotive-relay-n00aw
The plan is to use your modified regulator to switch this relay when voltage exceeds 14.5, and in doing so short the PMG yellow field coil to ground.
Wiring diagram might be as below...
Good luck.... like Ash's suggestions of using the correct bits... but then where's the fun / challenge!
As for the loom, personally given any you buy is gonna be 40yrs+, your experience.... and that your bike is not planned to be original in terms of wiring I'd be tempted to make up a shiny new loom.
I've not done one myself, but the Internet would be a great place to start. My reckoning would be to design your circuit on paper, and install all the electrical bits onto the bike. Then, and one at a time, install each circuit onto the frame, tie wrapping the wires to the bike as you go. As new circuit adds on, tie wrap the new wires to the building loom. Leave all ends with a surplus 20cms or so. Once the loom is complete, cut it away from the bike, insulate all the soldered connections you'll have made, and then tape the whole thing up soundly, cutting the binding tie wraps as you go.
Reinstall it onto the bike & now cut the ends to length & terminate. Just a thought...
These guys have all the wiring, connectors, heat shrink tubing, heat resistant sleeving yada yad that you might require. http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/70
Batteries... Lithium etc... http://www.carrotcycles.co.uk/index.php?_a=category&cat_id=217
Cost a small fortune, and VERY technical in terms of charging / discharging. They need very specific chargers... ie you can't just bung in 14.5V and not expect something terrible to happen. Honestly.
Carrot Batteries sell lithium types for 'bikes... and within the battery is the circuitry to adapt 40 year old technology to be compatible with the battery. This said, certainly in the short term, given your charging circuit is in its infancy / unproven can I suggest you steer clear of fancy LiPos LiFes & the like and so save yourself big bucks or worse, a burned out bike. One step at a time without wanting to sound rude!
Anyways, good luck with it all, the bike looks great..
Simon
(PS - Ash, any reason why the 'spare' yellow rectifier lead can't be connected to the LH Yellow & 'share' the load?)
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Hi, Not had chance to respond yet as busy with work. What's the 'junkbox, regulator Lobo?
Found a rectifier pack last night from 80's Ford Orion , 3 phase, looks neat for conversion for bike use.
For the CB450 -- tons of help on HondaTwins.net forum.
Agree bike looks really nice.
cheers
Ash
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Hi Ash,
'Junk box relay' is one Mjc477 has in his treasure trove.... declared / pictured on p1 of this thread. Shame to let it go to waste I thought, ie mod it & tie it to a SPDT relay...... as an option. But would it work?
My main concern would be the relay 'chattering' as voltage rises, relay grounds a winding, voltage falls, relay opens.... ad infinitum.
But then, wouldn't this apply to the field coil regulator system we have on the 1975 Hondas, ie the points within chattering about a 14.5v mean as the 10ohm resistor is shunted in & out?
Cheers,
Simon