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SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: Bradders on May 27, 2019, 08:55:18 PM

Title: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on May 27, 2019, 08:55:18 PM
Evening all. Sorry got another question. I’ve had my 400/4 a few months now and was wondering how much oil its normal to use? I estimate that I’ve used about 1.5 litres and riden about 800 miles. Is that about normal or have I a problem? There’s no obvious oil leak that I can see and haven’t noticed blue smoke out of the exhaust.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: K2-K6 on May 27, 2019, 09:45:16 PM
No not normal.  That's a fairly chunky usage for that mileage so it must be going somewhere.

Initially and pragmatically,  if it's been sitting not used for significant period of time it's possible that the piston rings are gummed and not working as they should.

Be scrupulous about checking oil level,  certainly to make sure you don't run low and cause damage.  Run for more mileage and assess to see if it changes.

Could consider treating with redex into petrol to find out of it can improve.  The theory here is to reduce gumming and residue that could be stopping piston rings from sealing properly.

Failing that,   a compression test would be useful in giving an insight into bore and compression ring effectiveness.

Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on May 27, 2019, 10:06:05 PM
Thanks K2-K6. Thanks for your reply. I have used Redex once before so will try a few more shots and see if that does the trick. Am I right in thinking I should check oil level after running the engine for a couple of minutes?
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Trigger on May 27, 2019, 10:07:58 PM
Nope, you should check the oil when cold and on the centre stand  ;)
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 27, 2019, 10:11:54 PM
Wow, that is a lot of oil. Have you looked at the air filter and foam in the bottom of the air box? If it's really oily, it could be a sign of raised crank case pressure suggesting rings are stuck or bores are worn. Like all these old bikes / engines, they do burn a bit of oil so some topping up regularly is required but not that much.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on May 27, 2019, 10:14:55 PM
Ok thanks. Will have a look tomorrow at the air filter. Thanks again for your speedy replies.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: dave400 on May 28, 2019, 07:45:38 PM
Evening all. Sorry got another question. I’ve had my 400/4 a few months now and was wondering how much oil its normal to use? I estimate that I’ve used about 1.5 litres and riden about 800 miles. Is that about normal or have I a problem? There’s no obvious oil leak that I can see and haven’t noticed blue smoke out of the exhaust.

Blimey..I can’t remember ever having to top up oil on my 400, yours seems to have a problem if it uses that sort of amount I’m at about 20K miles with mostly original metal parts but new seals and other bits and pieces.......Dave
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on May 28, 2019, 09:45:11 PM
Hi Julie. Had a look at the air filter and foam in the bottom of the air box. Seems pretty dry and good there ( to my untrained eye). Will try K2-K6 Redex idea and see what happens. Is it ok to still use my bike with this oil problem or is it likely to make things worse?
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 28, 2019, 09:54:19 PM
Hi Julie. Had a look at the air filter and foam in the bottom of the air box. Seems pretty dry and good there ( to my untrained eye). Will try K2-K6 Redex idea and see what happens. Is it ok to still use my bike with this oil problem or is it likely to make things worse?
As long as you check the oil level and top it up regularly you will be ok but, in the longer term, as Nigel suggested, you really need a compression test to see what's happening. It may just be stuck piston rings. What you can do for now is put some oil down the bores, to see if it will free off the rings, (about 10 ml I think), when the pistons are not at top dead centre and leave it for a couple of days, then ride the bike and see if this has any effect on the oil consumption. If it is still using loads of oil then a compression test is definitely the next course of action.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 28, 2019, 09:57:42 PM
Another thought....have you looked absolutely everywhere for an oil leak?
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 28, 2019, 10:16:59 PM
My brain is still thinking 😀😀😀 Are you checking the oil level correctly each time. Cold engine, bike on centre stand, clean dip stick, put dip stick back in the hole, do not screw it back in, just have it resting there on the lip and check level. You say there is no evidence of blue smoke from the exhaust 🤔, have you had someone ride / drive behind you to confirm this? Either the oil is leaking out or burning out.......either way, it's coming out, we just need to find from where. Don't worry too much though, these engines are as tough as old boots and I'm sure you don't ride it like a maniac 😀😀😀
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on May 28, 2019, 10:22:06 PM
Thanks Julie. There is a weeping of oil half way down number 1 cylinder (what I would call the fin). Would that be enough to lose that much oil?  Please excuse my ignorance but when you say put oil down the bores does that mean remove the plugs and put oil down there? How do I know when the pistons are not at Top dead centre?
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on May 28, 2019, 10:34:43 PM
My brain is still thinking 😀😀😀 Are you checking the oil level correctly each time. Cold engine, bike on centre stand, clean dip stick, put dip stick back in the hole, do not screw it back in, just have it resting there on the lip and check level. You say there is no evidence of blue smoke from the exhaust 🤔, have you had someone ride / drive behind you to confirm this? Either the oil is leaking out or burning out.......either way, it's coming out, we just need to find from where. Don't worry too much though, these engines are as tough as old boots and I'm sure you don't ride it like a maniac 😀😀😀
I will get my wife to follow me tomorrow to see if it’s blowing any smoke out. I’m checking the oil as you say. My son always laughs at me as he says I ride like an old man😀. Thanks for your time Julie.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Trigger on May 28, 2019, 10:51:36 PM
My brain is still thinking 😀😀😀 Are you checking the oil level correctly each time. Cold engine, bike on centre stand, clean dip stick, put dip stick back in the hole, do not screw it back in, just have it resting there on the lip and check level. You say there is no evidence of blue smoke from the exhaust 🤔, have you had someone ride / drive behind you to confirm this? Either the oil is leaking out or burning out.......either way, it's coming out, we just need to find from where. Don't worry too much though, these engines are as tough as old boots and I'm sure you don't ride it like a maniac 😀😀😀

I'm sure there was a thread recently saying we had got it all wrong on checking oil levels, should be hot, screwed in not cold on top of threads.

The way you describe is the way I always checked the oil levels Julie.


I have added the correct amount of oil to rebuilt engines and the oil level is spot on the dip stick without screwing it in.
The workshop service manuals state : The machine should be upright on a level surface, DO NOT screw in the dip stick, just rest it on the boss for the correct level  ;)
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 28, 2019, 11:05:59 PM
If you are not too sure or don't feel too confident doing this, maybe consider taking it to a garage for them to do. But yes, remove all the spark plugs. I would 'feel'  the top of one of the end pistons through the spark plug hole by resting something like a screwdriver on the top of the piston to determine where in the barrel the piston is sitting, which would also tell me what position the middle two pistons are in. If the one you are checking is too high or too low,you need to turn the engine over until the piston you are checking is sort of half way up the barrel. Put the oil through the spark plug hole, so the oil will be going onto the top of the pistons and will gradually seep down the side of the piston and around the rings and just leave it like that for a couple of days. Put the plugs back in so nothing can crawl, or fall in. And make sure you dont cross thread the plugs, start them off with your fingers so you can feel them in the thread before using plug spanner. After a couple of days, start and ride bike as normal,it may smoke a bit to start with as you will be burning off the residue of oil on top of the pistons.
Any oil around the head or barrel fins means oil is getting out through a gasket or O ring somewhere. It may be a combination of the oil leak and burning some oil that is making you use the amount of oil you are.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Green1 on May 28, 2019, 11:42:52 PM
Hinkley Triumphs are the only bikes I can think of were you wind the dipstick in.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: K2-K6 on May 29, 2019, 07:23:06 AM
As Julie indicates, knowledge of piston sequencing will allow placing them correctly.

If you take off the right side timing cover and look for timing marks you'll see a T mark by either 1/4 and 2/3,  this indicates those pistons numbered are at the top of the barrel.

If you turn it to either one of the T marks ( it's not critical which numbers you start with as it will produce the same result from either) then further by 90degree,  all the pistons will be half way up the barrels to let you put something in.

Looking at the timing marks you'll end up half way between any of the marks to confirm position.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on May 29, 2019, 07:53:50 AM
Thanks for your replies Julie and K2-K6. Do I use just the normal engine oil? Can I use the plug spanner in the bike toolkit to get the middle plugs out without moving the tank? It looks very short of room there.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: K2-K6 on May 29, 2019, 07:58:44 AM
The centre plugs can be done with std spanner and without removing anything else,  but it's always very fiddly on these engines with access around those centre two.

Opinion is going to vary  ;D on what to put in it,  I'd try with neat reddex at first to see if you get any effect.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 29, 2019, 08:23:01 AM
Yes, normal engine oil or Redex as Nigel suggests. It is awkward to remove the middle plugs with the tank on until you get the knack, even more difficult to get them back in. As you are going to have bike standing for a couple of days after doing this, I think it would be easier for you to remove the tank. Just pull the rubber pad back at the back of the tank, remove the fuel pipe to the petcock pull tank back and lift off. It will also be easier for you to get the oil down the spark plug ports without the tank on.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on May 29, 2019, 09:15:01 AM
Thanks very much. Will have a go later today and see how I get on.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: K2-K6 on May 29, 2019, 09:50:29 AM
You can use a piece of clear tube to suck up liquid and then put it into the cylinder get in there easily.

Just make sure it's long enough so you don't "inhale" the brew of choice when you suck on it ;D
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Andych on May 29, 2019, 09:55:46 AM
Should be no need to inhale... simply insert said piece of tube into the liquid and put a finger over the end. you should be able to lift out however much is in the tube as long as you keep your finger sealed on the end.
At least that is the theory..... :)
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on May 29, 2019, 10:32:26 PM
Just wanted to thank Julie and K2-K6 for their advice with regards to my high oil consumption and the “How to” guide on putting oil down my bores. I would not of felt confident enough to do it without there advice. Keeping my fingers crossed that it fixes the problem. 🤞
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 29, 2019, 10:41:03 PM
Yes, fingers crossed for you Bradders. This is all part of the DIY 'diagnostics' process. Start with the simple things you can do for yourself first. Well done. Give us an update sometime.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on May 29, 2019, 11:31:46 PM
I will Julie. Thanks again for your help.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on July 09, 2019, 02:43:55 PM
Afternoon. My 400/4 is still using a lot of oil. 1/2 a litre in about 200 miles. Have tried putting Redex down the bores. Is there anything else I could try or is it time to get a mechanic to have a look for me? Is there a mechanic that anyone could recommend local to me? I live in Crowthorne Berkshire.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on July 09, 2019, 02:50:55 PM
It’s either leaking it or burning it.

If you don’t have pools of oil under your bike, I’d take to Hatfields. They are pretty old school and should be able to run a compression check for you.

I don’t have a compression tester any more.

Steve
Wokingham


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Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on July 09, 2019, 03:07:48 PM
At least you tried the basics Bradders. The compression readings were very good on my 400/4 but, when I stripped the engine and found 3 pistons and rings with serious damage, it was actually the carbon build up that was stopping oil getting by the rings and the carbon build up also helped maintain the good compression. Not saying your engine has such substantial damage and issues that mine had but....worth bearing in mind.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on July 09, 2019, 03:29:44 PM
That’s interesting Julie. Hadn’t thought about that. Steve I’ve been into Hatfield’s a couple of times but they said that they would do MOT’s but that was about it as my bike was too old! Maybe I’ll try them again. Chris.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on July 09, 2019, 04:56:48 PM
Has the old guy retired then?

2nd try would be Gary Beresford at GS Motorcycle Tyres (or “Bike Base” ) in Winnersh.

He’s put tyres on my 500s and now has an MOT workshop and does mechanics as well.


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Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on July 09, 2019, 05:01:37 PM
Thanks Steve. I shall try him.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bryanj on July 09, 2019, 05:43:33 PM
Just come to this party, oil consumption is way too high and must be going somewhere. Did you decide if it was smoking?  I would suspect valve stem seals first and pistons second.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on July 09, 2019, 07:53:43 PM
Hi Bryanj. It doesn’t smoke on start up and my wife has followed me in the car and she says she couldn’t see any smoke.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on July 09, 2019, 08:47:31 PM
So if it's not smoking that only leaves 2 possibilities. 1) Oil leak. 2) You are riding it flat out in the red in every gear for 200 miles 🤔🤔🤔
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on July 09, 2019, 08:54:47 PM
There’s a slight leak on the fins. Maybe I need to get my wife to follow me again and I’ll  give it some welly to see if it smokes. Do you think it would be worth me putting some more Redex down the bores? Have done it once would there be any benefit to doing it again?
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on July 09, 2019, 09:34:23 PM
Get Mrs Bradders to follow you again and ask her to look for smoke on hard acceleration and also on the over run (throttling off). Also, when you pull up, see if she smokes at idle. I don't see the benefit of more Redex at this stage personally. You say small leak on the fins, whereabouts?....rocker cover area or cylinder head area or barrels area, or is it difficult to know where it is coming from precisely?
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on July 09, 2019, 11:19:03 PM
Hi Julie. I think there’s a slight leak between cylinder and cylinder head also the rocker spindle cap and some of the oil sump pan bolts. Would that be enough to lose so much oil?
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on July 10, 2019, 09:31:55 AM
It will definitely contribute towards high oil consumption. If you see signs of a leak, oil over casings etc, that could just be the residue that's left after a ride, you may well have quite a bit of oil loss when riding but you won't see it as its been blown off the engine whilst riding. You say there is oil leaking from the sump but that being at the lowest point, that is where it is going to end up. It could br the oil pump, the gear change spline seal or/ and the starter motor O ring leaking or the clutch gasket or kick start seal on the other side. I changed my sump gasket twice a few years ago due to a leak, made no difference as it was the starter motor O ring that had perished. It may be worth you investigating these things next. A combination of oil leaks and burning a bit of oil, which is quite normal for an old engine, could well add up to your combined oil loss. Also attend to the rocker spindle cap leak.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on July 10, 2019, 10:44:37 AM
Thanks Julie. Now you mention it there’s some oil near the kick start as well. I think I need to find a mechanic to have a good look at it as I’m not a mechanic by a long shot. Thanks for your advice Julie.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on July 10, 2019, 10:53:31 AM
Good idea. It is nothing unusual for O rings / seals to be perished on bikes that are 45 years old. They go dry and brittle and just don't do their job any more. Even if you can change, or get someone else to change all the easily accessible parts, it would be a huge step in the right direction. After changing them, if the head gasket is weeping a little bit, I wouldn't worry too much about that. I know yours is a very early engine and head gasket leaks were very common. You need to stem the flow of all the easily doable bits first though.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on July 10, 2019, 01:06:17 PM
Thanks Julie. Ive left a message for a mechanic to call me back. He has been recommended to me by SteveD so hopefully he will be able to help me.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bradders on June 16, 2020, 08:15:42 PM
Thought I would update this post. After having new valve stem seals and rings fitted it seems to of cured the high oil consumption I was experiencing. Have done 300 miles since the work was done with no oil loss, before the work it was burning about 1/2 a litre every 200 miles. So thanks to everyone’s advice.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Nurse Julie on June 16, 2020, 10:40:07 PM
That's better, not like the Torrey Canyon now then. Enjoy.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on June 17, 2020, 06:27:27 AM
Not me. We watched it on our old black and white TV.

The RAF bombed it to bits to try and burn off the oil. I think they only helped spread it though.


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Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Orcade-Ian on June 17, 2020, 07:57:36 AM
You are opening up an old wound Steve and Julie,
The RAF used the Buccaneer - the plane I was involved with, to bomb the ship - about the first time it had been used in anger since it was put into service and guess what?  IT MISSED!  :)🤬

Ian
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: Bryanj on June 17, 2020, 08:23:55 AM
Yup, several times as i remember!!!
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: TrickyMicky on June 17, 2020, 10:02:00 AM
Re. The Torrey Canyon incident, if my fading memory serves me correctly, the RAF actually used Napalm to burn off the spilt oil, which caused a hell of an outcry because everybody was under the impression that we did not possess this weapon.
Title: Re: Engine oil use?
Post by: SeanFD on June 19, 2020, 08:21:33 PM
If you are not too sure or don't feel too confident doing this, maybe consider taking it to a garage for them to do. But yes, remove all the spark plugs. I would 'feel'  the top of one of the end pistons through the spark plug hole by resting something like a screwdriver on the top of the piston to determine where in the barrel the piston is sitting ....

🤣🤣 I’m just reading this post for the first time and this reminds me ....

Back in 1975, I was the proud owner of a CB125S with a massive fairing, bought at auction for, I think, less than £100; my first bike. One fine day I was trying to set the timing or check tappets or something; totally inexperienced and ignorant with only, maybe, but I can’t remember, a Haynes manual for guidance.

Anyway I was trying to determine TDC, so I thought to put a pencil into the spark plug hole and see when the piston got tot the top. I turned the engine over using the kick start, the piston came up and ..... yep, snapped the pencil in two. Thus began my career as an amateur motorcycle mechanic.

What surprised and delighted me most was that the bike actually started when I put it all back together again. I don’t think I had such a joyful moment until 40-odd years later when my rebuilt 750 K2 fired up on the first push of the start button.
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