Post by: Lobo on November 25, 2022, 11:50:11 AM
I have been to great pains to keep the bike factory, but hey….
Post by: K2-K6 on November 25, 2022, 12:56:32 PM
Post by: Oddjob on November 25, 2022, 01:20:03 PM
So this time I thought I'd avoid that, I intend to fit a side stand sensor either wired so that if you select gear with it down it cuts the engine like on my CB1300 or failing that not being possible then using the indicator buzzer I still have fitted so that it goes off when the neutral light goes out and the stands still down. I think the rubber thing only really works when the side stand got repositioned by Honda further back, the 550 side stand has it for instance but they moved it from under the rotor area to near the footrests, it could be the angle the rubber hits the road that meant it needed to be relocated.
Not sure whether that was the same for the 750 as I just wasn't interested in studying them, sorry to say, never liked them so never bothered with them.
Post by: K2-K6 on November 25, 2022, 02:30:24 PM
I've a later 750, not SOHC, that has the stand pivot in front of crank and folded the foot infront of main footrest. That doesn't appear to be critical. They are general fairly upright in geometry though, making it simple to flick with the rubber tang.
Post by: Oddjob on November 25, 2022, 05:16:50 PM
Post by: Lobo on November 25, 2022, 09:47:17 PM
Can anyone with intricate knowledge of K7/F1-2 setups confirm whether their side stands can be a direct swap-over to a K2 pls?
A simple buzzer may suffice, will give both options some thought - including perhaps a sticker on my visor saying, “Put the ‘stand up ya prat”
Ta.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 26, 2022, 06:39:15 AM
I will be interested to see who comes up with an easy solution.
My first thought was a mercury type switch to operate a relay on the ignition circuit ? Bike vibration might mean simple switch better.
Post by: philward on November 26, 2022, 09:42:48 AM
I'm not an electronics expert, but can't a microswitch and relay (similar to those used on clutch switch) be rigged up on a bracket that the side stand activates?
Post by: K2-K6 on November 26, 2022, 10:55:53 AM
[attachimg=1]
Would need a switch for hardware actuation to work.
Post by: Lobo on November 26, 2022, 12:14:51 PM
With aviation as my background, proximity switches occasionally caused concern (typically a Door message), but notably, and for good reason, could never trigger an engine shutdown.
I’ll avoid over complication myself, and likely just do a buzzer iaw neutral, or if direct fit, the K7 / F1/2 side-stand
Post by: K2-K6 on November 26, 2022, 07:20:35 PM
A friend has an F2 but stored currently the "wrong way round" to easily inspect and assess. Can arrange if no other information is forthcoming to help.
Have got F2 manual pictures available if helpful to you. The tab is only a very small mod welded to the side of stand that could easily be replicated on a K2 example to facilitate fitment of a Honda rubber foot, which maybe a way to get there.
Post by: Oddjob on November 26, 2022, 08:41:16 PM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165590797970?hash=item268dfb0e92:g:SN0AAOSw9XxhO5jn&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoAa5wesWJcL%2Fk8KS6NI6budXp4QORJn6DMvE8aIpUvSOe7hlod486qQJbLPH9k7Rjedwl6NWvX%2F2SGU2kgVA3DyIOQmUcckSINtRZFftUiBXNtqW445TTP%2FKbIhFSxSAxEGzhsr0e6NAmMRWyx%2FOcRHU6ROupaamt%2B54AtzDOTOgC6zEWiNq5qVPuu9Sx3F%2BKzF5uK0t3dHDzMHoSkxZfEA%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8zZyNqWYQ
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313653049867?hash=item49072dba0b:g:A54AAOSw2sdhKQn3&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoD%2FxxNaj84bnT9ty1%2FSJwRfVNvZFa1YqauwlZ4v56ZupTiLAUKYu%2BA34wRLKOYW%2B%2BQESYwbgvgNOo4E8WHH7BNzWpomcMbpDe5uYFGZNGkn0Oeh0y0H9ywNbULak5Me%2BxvrZftgo%2FyKm1hxcXZIjT32h8%2BZPDsMnL02Wn4hbAkTFLgdPG8vr%2B2Sz1JMzi99AlSxnmyk1NR5Y9V19tn3BXLY%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9a11NqWYQ
Post by: Lobo on November 27, 2022, 05:47:58 AM
Notably the K5 sidestand is a different part # to the K2/3/4, and includes the rubber. BUT, the K5 frame # is the same part # as 2/3/4, so I assume the K5 side-stand should fit a K2 frame. Am I correct in this assumption?
Nige, whilst not interested in bastardising my ignition circuit, I looked at the circuit diag you provided and am somewhat surprised in that it is not FAIL SAFE. The (Bosch type) relay is depicted as a Normally Open (NO) type unit, meaning that electrical power is needed to hold the relay closed to energise the ignition coils. Ergo, an open circuit failure in the sidestand sub-circuit will de-energise the control coil relay, causing the contacts to open and thereby cut power to the coils. (= engine failure!)
Along the same lines, whilst not made clear in the diag you posted, I’d suggest the Neutral and Sidestand switches be both NO type switches if possible - again in the interests of Fail Safe.
OR - am I missing something? (I’ve included what I reckon I’d be doing if going that route, specifically using a NC (Normally Closed) type relay)
(a look at my Moto Guzzi set up was not much use as clumps of wires just disappear into various computery things. Dang)
Post by: Bryanj on November 27, 2022, 07:42:49 AM
If you think a circuit failure is possible and overide/changeover switch could be fitted somewhere.
The idea is similar to the auto car that will only start in neutrat and if the gearbox switch fails it wont start, way back in my day was one of the first things checked on a no start job
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on November 27, 2022, 08:22:31 AM
A far better solution might be a starter motor inhibit
Dreadful idea in my experience.
I had a Triumph Daytona 1000 (the four cylinder one from the 90s) that had this.
As I had about 12 of Eamon’s bikes in my barn at the time, it only got used once per year (3 miles each way for an MOT) so I could never start it. The starter would spin but it would not fire up unless the sidestand was in the up position.
Hours (well OK, minutes) of frustration.
It didn’t have a centre stand so you had to actually sit on it to start it up.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: K2-K6 on November 27, 2022, 08:40:40 AM
It does get convoluted though as most neutral switches are effectively faill safe by removing contact to earth when moved away from that home position and so needing no constant contact to keep the light out. Obviously not an engine stopping circuit original, but then piggybacking something else onto that mechanical logic to make such a device.
On relay powered down status, I believe most fuel injection pumps are relay " powered to on" type when called by ecu, giving a failed state of no fuel pressure with the same consequence of engine stop that you've observed there. The relay seem to be very reliable and I've only experience of two failing in years, one on audi car at 139,000 miles and one on Land Rover at 157,000 miles. Quite possibly a case for planned replacing during maintenance and both Bosch relay. Nothing to moan about in service life in practice though. It's often this route that is toggled in older alarm system when added as supplimentary kit too, think modern is built-in to ecu more now and logic controls of injection pulse output completes this function.
Certainly seen more failures in total of ignition barrel contact on bikes over similar period of time but much less miles recorded.
All of these ultimately balanced against what you are trying to prevent from happening by stopping errors will have acknowledged level of probability in occurrence to deal with in some form or another.
Post by: Lobo on November 27, 2022, 11:05:57 AM
I guess Bryan, my personal idea of fail safe (in this very specific case) is that the engine keeps running should any component of the sub-circuit or it’s wiring fail.. whether open or closed circuit.
Nige, I did not intend to concentrate on the relay, but rather the whole sub-circuit, meaning failures of the sub-loom, it’s earthing, it’s connections, the 2 switches and indeed the relay itself would allow the engine to stay running.
Fuel injectors circuits carry a different set of risks in that fuel is being pressurised - although I do see differing points-of-view wrt ‘what is safest’ - especially so in that it will vary iaw the threat. (as indeed you touched upon)
A very interesting topic tbh, and shows how one just can’t sit down and design a circuit without a fair amount of understanding the problem. It must constantly lead to ‘doh, I never thought of that’, type frustrations!
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on November 27, 2022, 11:09:27 AM
It’s like trying to start up with the kill switch engaged
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Post by: K2-K6 on November 29, 2022, 08:59:01 AM
Definitely and often not realised just how much of this element in many products prior to anyone seeing them.
Your original reference Simon to familiar risk and protocols in your industry obviously have very pronounced end case scenario in the event of failure which may not be so readily apparent in this case. Thinking it through I was wondering whether to include the following story to bring wider view.
Not keen to project uncoroborated/dramatic events, this though is direct from a good friend and very experienced rider. Travelling across Europe had stopped at top of a mountain pass, setting off again downhill and turned right out of carpark (the Europe part has significance here) gentle run downward and approaches a left hand hairpin, sidestand still down!!! It hit the road and fired him and bike straight into a peripheral retaining wall outside of corner with that contact, no more than 30mph too. The injuries were serious as the bike pummelled him into the wall with consequently broken pelvis leg etc. The bike was a goldwing. It resulted in hospital, repatriation, recovery and longer lasting effects. He felt lucky it wasn't even more serious :)
Again the European part has an impact, if he was driving on the "right" side of the road :) (Micheal Cane reference here) it could push the accident directly into oncoming vehicles.
This bike had that rubber piece missing (it's no fault of the bike, just his own acknowledged cause of not fitting a new rubber part) when it should have been there, but even with a sidestand orientated to flick up with that rubber it effectively fired him and bike straight into the accident, a very sobering tale.
Must admit when these devices and control first started appearing I thought they were a bit nimby-pamby and "why would you need that" type of thing. Guess that the manufacturers were seeing much more of this type of thing and set about answering to reduce their customer risk. Easy in hindsight to now see an overall picture.
Certainly anything you can competently do to reduce risk in this scenario has high value personally I feel. I saw someone at a bike meet with a rubber wedge door stop and "remove before flight" red tag on in just wedged between the clocks that the rider took out and put inside his jacket after folding the stand, he a self confessed habitual leaver of sidestand down. Cheap and practical at least.
Post by: SteveW on November 29, 2022, 09:33:50 AM
Post by: Johnny4428 on November 29, 2022, 09:53:00 AM
How about something really simple such as if the side stand is down and the ignition is on all the idiot lights flash?
This is a very worthwhile mod. You don’t want to use the first left hand bend method to get that side stand up! Got the t-shirt!🥵🥵🥵
Post by: Oddjob on November 29, 2022, 01:40:51 PM
How about something really simple such as if the side stand is down and the ignition is on all the idiot lights flash?
I'd imagine the easiest way would be to wire an alarm of some sort that only comes on if the stand is down and the neutral light goes off. That would be easy to do IF the neutral light switch wasn't just an earth point but it is so it's more difficult.
I have the switch for the side stand, that's easy to source.
Post by: Lobo on November 29, 2022, 09:25:01 PM
I’ve found a vey grubby K5 Sidestand here on eBay at $125, but it’d then need cleaning up, powder coating AND a new rubber. Versus my box of electrical bits which has no-end of 12v relays, buzzers and microswitches. I’ve identified a spot where a m’switch would mount, shielded away from thrown dirt and moisture, and will likely go this route - ie a buzzer tied to the Neutral switch via relay. (ie to get around the issue Ken’s mentioned)
SteveW, your flashing idiot panel would be great, but in reality not really simple to wire up. (I’m also really against cutting / modifying the original loom in any way which this would surely entail)
Post by: Oddjob on November 29, 2022, 11:35:57 PM
Here's what I'll be using, I got the idea after studying my own CB1300 side stand switch, the bolt head has a small 6mm thread inside it, this bolts the switch to the head of the bolt. You need to fit the bolt from the inside out instead of the normal outside in, so you'd need to remove the thread from the existing stand, not hard to do, just drill it to match the other side, a 10mm nut on the outside would hold it in place on the frame, essentially the same as the existing system but the other way round. I also intend to adapt the bolt so it can also grease the stands pivot point, just drill down until your halfway down the bolt, where the bolt flange is inside the frame, another hole drilled crossways across the bolt will mean you can remove the 6mm bolt holding the switch on, fit a 6mm grease nipple and pump the pivot point full of grease, remove the nipple, refit the bolt and jobs done for 2 years or so. Simple really and no taking it all part just to grease it up. Saves wear on the frame as well.
Here's what I mean, hidden so not obtrusive and not up for people pointing it out as non standard etc.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324313540636?hash=item4b8297e81c:g:1YsAAOSw4qxfcz35&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8OrYbs4N7bTZhtETOO%2FjyI%2BGl7gW6UAh2D%2Bdpu55sQ4U%2FjI6ANCPlY1itOjEYEDcw13fRO9LwC2IMUoGW7UVMNBA74YaSqvfohBEZMrQz4Q3xMKDx5hkVj48KSof41gOi7TWddQRf%2FjvMaNbnbiLjFIFJukkHSgixZo6MfwS%2BrNx03b2gGRInQPX4zmL4SPSNggnb2Lxt3o67kLPXItUIlWs%2FzntQUTT0N8lcrsEfIr8dXzzPs7Pemm16CutnaZLijSPLQIrIiQNY3ddBN1tjrMJ9NP10kRj3TwMclYliX1dZLde6Zx6Y%2BI8KP%2BkjBrLYw%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4KostuYYQ
A lot cheaper ones available but this shows the best what I mean.
Post by: Lobo on November 30, 2022, 11:36:27 AM
Many thanks!
Post by: Oddjob on November 30, 2022, 02:22:27 PM
Post by: Lobo on December 01, 2022, 07:53:52 AM
Back to plan A, thanks nonetheless.