Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => SOHC Singles & Twins => Topic started by: cbxman on December 01, 2023, 01:59:59 PM
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Hi Folks,
I noticed that there was some weave whilst out riding my CB360, so I checked the play in the rear fork and found some movement. On inspection the bushes were slightly worn, but the collar was quite pitted.
In an attempt to fix this, I purchased a Tourmax (labeled on the pack as SNB-102) Upgrade Kit from Motorcycle Products, their part number 034064.
The kit is nicely made and uses IKO needle bearings and end bearings where the weather seals would be, but it had no weather seals. The OEM seals won't fit over the end races that they supply. I considered modifying the OEM seals so they would fit, but their thickness would add to the already correct dimensions of the kit and would cause binding with the Frame mounts...even if you could get it in the space!
I have requested information from Motorcycle Products, but have yet to receive a sensible response. There appears to no way of contacting Tourmax directly...
In the photo I sent to Motorcycle Products to explain the situation, you can see the issue. If by any chance the end bearings are actually waterproof, which I doubt, then the problem goes away.
I have put a "Desperately Seeking" message up for the collar, but not holding out much hope as it is a shared part with other models.
Any ideas out there?
Cheers,
Jerry
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In Tunisia atm and typing on a phone so will need to keep this short. The Tourmax doesn’t need seals due to the way they used a different solution to the problem than Honda
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As Ken said but also grease it very frequently and there will be no problem Honda spcified every 3000 mile, i say every time you go out if you dont ride a lot or every week if you do.
The problem of collar wearing more than bushes is common to all the Hondas
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Wow!. Thank you for the quick responses. OK, so the end bearings which are very smooth operating are in themselves resistant to water ingress? Are they some sort of PTFE sandwich? The IKO needle bearings and the end thrust bearings look like they are made from Stainless Steel
The CB360 does not have a grease nipple so that would require a complete dismantling of the rear end every time greasing is required. It's is little wonder that they were common failure point.
Maybe I can fit a grease nipple in the middle somehow. The two halves of the swing arm pressings wrap around and welded to the tube that makes up the pivot, so I would have to drill on the front side. I have checked and there is not enough space between the tube and the back of the motor to get a grease gun on. I would have to drill through the pressing and tube near where they are welded together. That would place it underneath and more accessible.
Will the end bearings allow grease through I wonder.
I was going to use CVJ moly grease as I have a tub of that. It is supposed to be resistant to water, so that should help.
Any further comments are welcomed.
Cheers,
Jerry
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Fit a grease nipple like on the 400 OR modify a 500 through bolt to fit that has grease nipples on the end, dont think much would need to be done.
No the end bearings are not waterproof which is why you need to regrease regularly.
Q does the 450 twin have grease nipples on the bolt?
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Fit a grease nipple like on the 400 OR modify a 500 through bolt to fit that has grease nipples on the end, dont think much would need to be done.
No the end bearings are not waterproof which is why you need to regrease regularly.
Q does the 450 twin have grease nipples on the bolt?
Yes the 450 has a grease nipple on the end of the bolt.
[attachimg=1]
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In that case try and find a 450 bolt but you will need some holes in the tourmax collar where the bearings go to let grease into the bearings, it takes a bit to fill the void spaces but will come out at the end bearings
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450 bolt will not work before you try to find one, I’ll explain better when I’m back in the uk on Sunday
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450 bolt will not work before you try to find one, I’ll explain better when I’m back in the uk on Sunday
Thanks Ken. On hold 'till you get back.
Thinking about it....I was wondering whether fitting a grease nipple is likely to be needed as my bikes don't go out in the rain unless I get caught out, so I don't expect to be putting those bearings under any threat. When the salt goes down, the bikes go to bed until the spring.... I'm a bit of wimp !!. I did all my crap weather riding back in the '70s
Cheers,
Jerry
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450 bolt will not work before you try to find one, I’ll explain better when I’m back in the uk on Sunday
Thanks Ken. On hold 'till you get back.
Thinking about it....I was wondering whether fitting a grease nipple is likely to be needed as my bikes don't go out in the rain unless I get caught out, so I don't expect to be putting those bearings under any threat. When the salt goes down, the bikes go to bed until the spring.... I'm a bit of wimp !!. I did all my crap weather riding back in the '70s
Cheers,
Jerry
Don't think there's too many on here that would disagree with the salt out bikes in sentiment.
Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
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I agree Jerry, we don’t spend thousands of pounds on these machines to splatter them in salt and watch them rust and corrode in front of our eyes.
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Before I fly home tomorrow can you measure the oe collar and the Tourmax version and post the lengths please
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Before I fly home tomorrow can you measure the oe collar and the Tourmax version and post the lengths please
Hello Ken,
As requested.
The overall length of both assemblies is similar. The Tourmax being about 1mm shorter. I guess the frame will flex to cover that when the through-bolt is tightened. The rebated section passes through the end bearing to contact the frame.
Cheers,
Jerry
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Hi Folks,
Just to finish this thread.....
The OE swing arm collar is not available in the UK, so I would bite the bullet and install the Tourmax Upgrade kit.
Given that this kit has no obvious weather seals, (the OE seals are discarded) I decided to drill the S/A in the centre nearest the lower pressing weld line. I tapped the hole to M6-1 and screwed in a 90º grease nipple. With two aluminium washers, I could tighten the nipple to point where it was easy to connect my grease gun (slight to the r/h side of the tyre from underneath)
Whilst the S/A was still on the bench, I pumped CVJ Moly grease through the nipple until it squished out of the two needle bearings. I then added the two end bearings and installed the S/S in the frame torqued down to the FSM value. I then pumped more grease in until it came though the end bearings. I figured that CVJ grease is very sticky and water resistant and very strong under compression and ideal for this job.
The finished job is excellent. The S/A has no slop and swings up/down with no effort at all.
If I ever get caught in the rain, then a pump of grease will expel any moisture, if any at all. CVJ grease is never likely wear out...especially when you consider its intended use.
Things to note. If you assemble the needle bearings on the shaft, you can feel a small bit of slop which was a little worrying, but whilst I was researching needle bearings, I discovered that they will always be slightly sloppy because they must be installed in the correct size tube which forces them down to the operational size. This is so. No measurable side play at all at the wheel end of the S/A.
This Upgrade Kit is suitable for the CB450K, CB350F and CB250G5/6, CB500T as well the CJ variants (according to their website). I ordered from motorcycleproducts.co.uk
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Nice job. Well done.
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That’s what I would have recommended you do.
The grease nipple in the ends of the bolt won’t work because the collar has no holes in to allow the grease to transfer inside the swinging arm. On bikes where they are fitted the collar has a spiral groove cut into its outer surface and holes inside the groove to allow grease to be spread around the bushing. It’s not a great system tbh as the holes sometimes get clogged with solidified grease and nothing gets past to lubricate the bushes, you squeeze the grease gun, see the grease come out of the end caps and assume it’s greased the bushes when in fact it hasn’t.
The construction of the Tourmax collar having no transfer holes would mean any grease nipples on the end of the bolt would just fill the space between the bolt and the collar but nowhere else. With the ends of the collar being crushed against the frame you’d start to see grease escaping there and again assume it had greased everything. On the Tourmax grease must be pumped in on the outside of the collar not the inside, this would then fill up the entire swinging arm tube, greasing not only the needle bearings but the end bearings as well, those large steel washers are actually needle bearings as well, the inside surface is resting on a small circular needle bearing cage between the inner and outer surfaces.
Tourmax do kits for the 500 and 550 Hondas but fail to point out the 500 needs to be adapted in order for it to work, due to having grease nipples on the bolt, whereas the 550 is fine as Honda fitted one roughly where you fitted one. It’s a easy job to fit a grease nipple in the centre of the tube, just drill 5mm and tap 6mm as you have done, normally you can get away with just a copper washer between the nipple and the tube to seal it. Best to test though with the nipple in place that it’s not hitting the inner collar, just in case. I’ve seam welded 6mm nuts to thin walled tubes, like the main stand for instance and fitted the grease nipple in the nut, so long as it’s seam welded the grease goes into the tube but any gap means it tries to escape between the nut and the tube instead.
I can recommend fitting a grease nipple on the main stand, stops it sticking after a while and means the bike just glides up and down on the main stand instead of you fighting the resistance a stiff stand can cause. I do it on all my bikes fitted with main stands.
As for the original collar, maybe try having it hard chromed, which should work very well imo.
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Ken,
Thank you for comments. The end bearings turn really smoothly and I wondered how on earth they could put needles in anything that thin. I thought it may be ring of PTFE.
The grease was definitely coming out from the edge of the bearing and also some squeezing past the collar where it passes through the end bearing, which is good - where there is grease--no water. A copper washer each end would increase the overall dimension and probably not allowed the S/A to fit the frame. Nice idea though.
I'm pleased how it turned out, but the total lack of instructions was rather unnerving. Still maybe this thread can help someone else.
The original collar is shot with deep corrosion pits. It could be turned down and a sleeves fitted, or bespoke brass bush maybe.
I had an old Mini Metro drive shaft which I thought I could turn down to duplicate the OE collar. Hard work for my 1946 Milford ML7 lathe!!
The PO, or the restorer he used, probably thought he could get away with re-using it.
It is a safety component. It would have failed an MOT.
Cheers,
Jerry
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Yes it would if it needed one, especially if i was doing it! Any play is too much as far as im concered.
I did say that the pin would need drilling for 450/500 bolt.
I dont like needle rollers in that situation as the angle movement is not a lot so needles dont actualy roll, same with taper roller headstock bearings, they indent just as bad as the balls but are easier to assemble
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Yes it would if it needed one, especially if i was doing it! Any play is too much as far as im concered.
I did say that the pin would need drilling for 450/500 bolt.
I dont like needle rollers in that situation as the angle movement is not a lot so needles dont actualy roll, same with taper roller headstock bearings, they indent just as bad as the balls but are easier to assemble
Bryan,
The angular movement of the S/A is small...just a few degrees, so I sort of agree with you. However it is common practice from I have seem for more modern bikes.
The CBX1000 Z (1978/79) model has plastic bushes and they were replaced by a large needle bearing on the chain side and opposed biased ball bearings on the right hand side to locate the S/A this development is proudly boasted in the "A" 1980 brochure. The idea being that the wide/long needles could bear the load better than a ball bearing with point contacts carrying the thrust.
It seems it is common practice now.
The is the drawing from the 1980 CBX brochure
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My CB1300 has 2 ball bearings on the O/S but a long needle roller on the N/S, possibly because it will withstand the pull of the drive chain better.. Oddly enough it's not the bearing that starts to fail but the tophat bush that runs inside the needle roller. Due to lack of assembly grease no doubt, mine got an advisory on it's first MOT for swinging arm play.
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My CB1300 has 2 ball bearings on the O/S but a long needle roller on the N/S, possibly because it will withstand the pull of the drive chain better.. Oddly enough it's not the bearing that starts to fail but the tophat bush that runs inside the needle roller. Due to lack of assembly grease no doubt, mine got an advisory on it's first MOT for swinging arm play.
Ken,
Thanks for the heads-up. My CB1300 A5 has only done 20k but I'll check the S/A when I have it up on the Abba Stand (no centre stand on mine wtf!)
I guess the CBX was one of the first bikes to exceed 100hp, so I guess they figured it needed to be beefed up. the 1300 is real grunt bucket, where's my grease gun!
Cheers,
Jerry
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Trouble is Jerry is that the 1300 has no greasing point for the swinging arm bearings, if they don't get enough on assembly by Honda they wear out quite quickly, mine had done about 25K when it got the advisory, TBH I thought they were taking the piss and looking for work but when I checked they were right, definite click when pulled side to side, I didn't have the parts to fix it then so I thought I'd check the torque pressure on the bolt, should have been around 63ftlbs IIRC and it was still that, in the end I cranked that bolt up to 125ftlbs before the play went. I bought a spare swinging arm and a complete setup including a new bolt, just in case, I did a complete write up on how to change the bearings on the 1300 forum, including how to get around the special tool requirements, I had the special tools and it's easier with them but doable without. I also drilled and tapped the swinging arm to take a central grease nipple the same as you've done yours. It works fine except the pressure tends to push out the bearing seal on the O/S and you need to push it back in afterwards. No trouble with the bearings ever since, the location of the grease nipple though is difficult to place, mines on the top and is just reachable from around the rear master cylinder area.
Main stands are available on Ebay every now and then, you need the earlier version which has a bracket sticking off it for the rebound rubber, the later version (08 onwards) don't have that bracket. I also fitted a grease nipple to mine, using the welded nut method. Works a treat but again position of nipple critical, got mine wrong and it hits the expansion chamber for the radiator, so I fit the nipple when I need to grease the stand and remove it afterwards
This is the later version, no bracket sticking off it.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126211456712?hash=item1d62c9fec8:g:l3EAAOSwCAZlZsmx&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4AENcluDgtXV7U5j%2Bjf7AYaQJ%2BCHMdgKu53LjOClcOXNulY5fkW83AnmxcS4xEP0KazqqUTwOvnUfxWzsSYQoznEcfUZ9nCi1a1ERxVQaGM5kGr7YRHUueixPu%2FZteWh7KulYzM%2Fkkjf2%2BhhzoZGGFU6f50azGwxCp40QnBV6cDy6fLH3VrsXr1M%2FV70RB%2Bw7OpWZWz4kxMc5t2ijSAq1i5y%2FmoaxgzRJ8TdgU7kvFyO8znxABV2kuGDNMEdlAfRT%2F%2FCHVNZDZEjFwxz%2FdMyyEdx5tyytu8mxX7EI15v9MAE%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5zD56KDYw&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&siteid=3&customid=link&campid=5336780572&toolid=20001&mkevt=1
This is the one you need, note the small bracket with the bump stop fitted.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305084935157?hash=item47087aabf5:g:yswAAOSwO4lk5Ed-&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4PKF4kNntdPZ9KWCEQFNZOJUUjFo6WkpOWwpdj85%2FOdaKGsUCeCiJJ0tA8Lh7ZxJVyJ1xePD%2Bnu2xV3cpgklqSn%2F9S887orf0UianA6QSiNQAv0bRmj5XzNjZlDG1TJLL6G6yYNiwdyVZa3IXBKegGWJp0PxfGG1MwOOD%2FSuiczFr3TdLDtHalGvFlKoqaW4ZGQmvFJW%2BA3hcOkkofbqo3hYzmSQZ06k%2F0ymCHqmlG3WY7MkDcwddr6Q5UDaSP1OR4%2BOIU6P9x31GEwjMCXjIXVG2igIlsrtjxRxSg2S3ZIT%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4rf26aJYw
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Ken,
Thank you for the links. I was getting excited until I saw the shipping from Japan...Ha Ha!
If you spot another one please let me know.
Cheers,
Jerry
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I remeber when Honda did the pro link rear end and they needed completely re bushing/bearing for first mot
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The Japanese one seems to be missing some parts, both of the springs, the pivot pin and the locking bolt mainly.
I do have a spare stand, it was fitted to my 09 bike from new, the problem was the dealer ordered the 03-07 version and the bump stop bracket hits the later style exhaust so they cut part of it off with a hacksaw, that left part of the bracket still attached. When I fitted an Akrapovic exhaust system I needed the earlier type so bought another and had it powder coated before swapping them over. All the first stand needs is a small plate welding onto the existing plate and it good to use.
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Ken,
Are you willing to part with it? If so please pm me.
Cheers,
Jerry