Honda-SOHC
Other Stuff => Misc / Open => Topic started by: Athame57 on March 19, 2024, 03:58:54 PM
-
Today I got Elen, my beloved 400/4 back from her engine rebuild ;D . It took a while because of unforeseen things mostly, but what irritated me was that from the start I asked them to check the condition of my primary chain, which they said was ok when I rang in. But later they rang me to say they had to open her up again because the more senior mechanic from their main shop said the engine still had noises that can't be ignored, the primary needed to be changed. ::) Also the clutch cushes where worn with too much movement. Well, I got a primary from DSS and a whole nice condition clutch from Steve at 400four bits. Top gear on countershaft had wear in it but after discussion on here I decided not to pay about £300.oo and wait about two more weeks for this item, I never had trouble with top gear btw. A leaky carb was also dealt with, but the carb repair kit I ordered from Legend never turned up, so I gave up and got one from DSS, that got here quick thank gawd, the other kit remains in transit or something.
Well... I happily went to collect her, and I was told they had done some work on the tail light too, I could see that already, after all ... it was upside down! ;D Embarrassed mechanic put it right for me. That said she now sounds and feels great, rejuvenated even. When I get home I get the feeling someone was definitely in a hurry to finish up though because something didn't look right, the oil filter housing is on sideways, it was sort of smiling at me. ;) mmmm... surely it can't do any harm if I plain leave it like that a while? The cost of the job was £700.oo, the parts I bought myself for around £500.oo.
-
The tail light was on upside down and the oil filter housing was on sideways.
Do you feel confident that all will be ok inside the engine?
Should we know who done the work for you so other members of this forum may be alerted?
Anyhow good luck with Elen and I hope all turns out ok for you.
Skoti
-
😳😳 upside down taillight and sideways oil filter housing. Didn’t even know that it was possible!😂
-
Should we know who done the work for you so other members of this forum may be alerted?
They are called 'Get Fixed' in London. ;)
-
😳😳 upside down taillight and sideways oil filter housing. Didn’t even know that it was possible!😂
Seeing is believing! ;)
-
Oh dear, that is one place I will not use.
From what you have said I can't understand how these people can call themselves motorcycle mechanics having missed vital clues of the engine condition and after you had asked them to check the primary chain! How many times have they opened the engine, three times? I bet they haven't cleaned up the casing joints between each opening and did they use Hondabond to reseal the joint? And why is the head mechanic not checking the work before they put the engine back together instead of telling them of the fault when it was running?
Cowboys, I would be asking for my money back and threaten them with Trading Standards.
-
Have they used copper washers on crankcase bolts in that picture ?
They look copper, possibly on main crank location too :o
-
😱😱😱😱😱😱
-
Oh dear multiple things went sideways. Not a recommendation!!
What could be the risk in using copper washers?
-
Oh dear multiple things went sideways. Not a recommendation!!
What could be the risk in using copper washers?
Ordinarily used in specific location, such as oil way through the joint etc, has very good sealing by being able to deform and match the surfaces its being used within.
Changes status of material, from being soft initially (annealed by heating to red colour and quick quenching in water) to help seal, will squash under torque loading to help that sealing function, but can ultimately settle to produce less loading on the joint than initially tightened to.
More often found on head studs which are themselves holding a slightly "elastic" in pure engineering terms, gasket between head and barrels.
Steel washers effectively don't do any of this, are all but incompressible in use, if used on metal to metal joints like crankcase, or just the simple flanged head bolts on many locations on these engine.
Generally, its not good to use or replace one type with another without specific reasoning.
-
There are copper looking washers under 2 head nuts on the 400 and 4 on the 750F2 if my memory is correct
-
They did well to keep the filter housing horizontal when the top lug was no where near.
-
They did well to keep the filter housing horizontal when the top lug was no where near.
I have always held onto the housing with one hand as I tighten it, obviously when located correctly. It can be rocked as it's tightened until you can only just feel it touching the crankcase as the o-ring seal gets compressed, then tighten no more. Perfect seal, with not too much stress to allow them to be undone without recourse to rounding the 12mm head off :)
-
They did well to keep the filter housing horizontal when the top lug was no where near.
I have always held onto the housing with one hand as I tighten it, obviously when located correctly. It can be rocked as it's tightened until you can only just feel it touching the crankcase as the o-ring seal gets compressed, then tighten no more. Perfect seal, with not too much stress to allow them to be undone without recourse to rounding the 12mm head off :)
I always use the Honda specified torque setting on this bolt Nigel but is your method more suitable to avoid the dreaded 12mm original bolt head rounding off? I would normally fit the aftermarket 17mm bolt but on ratty I'm going standard = more risk to rounding off at some point in the future.
-
Such a shame that you have had this experience. Lets hope it has not put you off the bike and in reality, all is well and you can look forward to the summer riding Elen.
I suppose GetFixed deal with newer bikes most of the time and have minimal experience with 400/4's. I know it is no excuse but maybe a little mitigation.
Whenever I have had to take a classic car in for repair (due to my lack of time) I always chose a motor engineer as opposed to a mechanic. The former having an empathy with the car he (or she) worked on.
Anyway, get some miles on and see hoe it goes!
-
I hope the bike is ok and you can enjoy it as you used to as it obviously means a lot to you. It’s a shame the people who worked on it have so little knowledge of the engine and the person in charge failed to undertake basic workmanship checks prior to handing it back to you.
In view of how they have refitted the filter housing and the copper washers as pointed out by Nigel if it were my bike I would be taking the filter housing off to fit it correctly (the cast lug is there for a reason) and at the same time I would be checking the filter itself has been replaced with a new item and the flat washer has been refitted in the correct position between the spring and the filter. It will also give you an opportunity to check the condition of the oil. I would be taking pictures and I’d be going back to the mechanic and demanding some kind of refund for such shoddy workmanship.
-
I agree with Dave about checking the oil filter washer is still in place.
Not many places do refunds these days, they might offer to correctly fit the filter housing f.o.c. Personally I would correct it myself as I'm somewhat conflict averse as I get older.
-
Get Fixed? More like Get Fxxked! What a bunch of clueless cowboys. 😫
-
Get Fixed? More like Get Fxxked! What a bunch of clueless cowboys. 😫
I think I pulled a dodgy assistant. They have done some great work for me before and my engine sounds great now, but less internal things appear to be Fawlty Towers.
Ding Dong. I've just discovered the tail lamp is on all the time even when the headlamp is off. ::)
-
And just to add to above make sure the filter spring is between the housing and filter and not between filter and engine! Been done before!
-
They did well to keep the filter housing horizontal when the top lug was no where near.
I have always held onto the housing with one hand as I tighten it, obviously when located correctly. It can be rocked as it's tightened until you can only just feel it touching the crankcase as the o-ring seal gets compressed, then tighten no more. Perfect seal, with not too much stress to allow them to be undone without recourse to rounding the 12mm head off :)
I always use the Honda specified torque setting on this bolt Nigel but is your method more suitable to avoid the dreaded 12mm original bolt head rounding off? I would normally fit the aftermarket 17mm bolt but on ratty I'm going standard = more risk to rounding off at some point in the future.
To expand Dave, obviously Honda give a torque and rightly so. The range is not that tight (for 750 it's 19.5~23.9 ft/lb) and maybe not so repeatable if there's any variation in equipment too.
It is alternative but completely accurate to do it by feel as you'd never want to load the filter housing further than when the seal is effectively fully home. By "rocking" I meant rotation within the tab and it's restriction by rocking it clock and anti clockwise while tightening.
Takes variable out of equation in reality by bringing the o-ring to compression and effective seal while leaving the housing the least stressed from the bolt.
Generally, methods like this are used in more critical cases to take out variation in tools and calibration, plus oil on threads etc.to reach the same point of joint security.
The tab and restriction on cases stops the filter housing backing out under vibration so they've designed it such that it can't start to rotate and unwind the bolt with it.
Obviously a number of functions being performed by the bolt, seal, filter and housing, making a balance between the design elements a little more complex. They put a 12mm on it to try and prevent any significant risk of tightening too much in workshops as it's a 20mm bolt with consequential risk to the cases and housing. I've owned a six sided snap, on socket for them since tge 1970s :) also a 17mm for tappet caps.
A long time ago I tested method against torque to see the difference, which came to the lightest torque Honda gave, but current o~ring material may shift that a little. Probably worthwhile doing your own comparison to verify. I've never had a leak but often had to get other's filter bolts off after they've stuck, a couple of hairline cracked housing too.
-
I think its 1/4 whit that is a hammer on fit to worn 12mm, still have one in my toolbos---somewhere---(tool box that is!).
The original 750 housing was round with no fins and was reatively quickly superceeded because of cracking