Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => Project Board => Topic started by: gary123 on July 22, 2022, 01:11:13 PM
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After being retired for 2.5 years I've run out of house projects and my other bikes are relatively modern so I needed a project and this seemed as good as any.
I'm really not sure exactly what I've got so any and all comments would be very welcome.[attachimg=1]
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Hi Gary. Your picture didn't appear. Well on Tapatalk anyway.
Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk
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Yes, Im a dinosaur with tech stuff Ill try again
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[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3][attachimg=4]
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The rolling chassis is a UK model CB500 four K1. The engine you show is a CB550/4
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Are you sure?[attachimg=1]
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Unless I'm mistaken, the photo of the engine on the bench isn't the same engine as you have just shown the number of. That engine number probably makes it a 1973 K1.
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The first photo is from the for sale ad, the second is in my shed but its the same engine.
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The first photo is from the for sale ad, the second is in my shed but its the same engine.
Ah, OK. So it's still looking like a 1973 UK model CB500/4 K1. It should look like mine 😊😊😊😊
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Yours looks great if I can get mine anywhere near that Ill be well happy
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Or you can do it in black, like John Webleys
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IIRC when this appeared on this forum there was a 500 and a 550 engine. The one on the wooden shelf is a 500, you can see the pushrod seal and it has the gearbox drum retaining bolt on the upper casing, which IIRC the 550 doesn't have.
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My bike is listed as black on the v5 but it came with a nos brown tank and panels and thats how I remember them from 50 years ago.
Yes , it also came with a 550 engine, not sure why, and as the previous owner sadly died last year Ill never know.
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My bike is listed as black on the v5 but it came with a nos brown tank and panels and thats how I remember them from 50 years ago.
Yes , it also came with a 550 engine, not sure why, and as the previous owner sadly died last year Ill never know.
He was most probably going to put a 550 engine in as the 500 is toast. Years ago a lot of owners changed there engines to 550's as, they thought it was a more powerful engine with 50cc more. The 500 and the 550 are the same BHP so, no benefit from a engine change.
The UK CB500 only came in Black, Gold or Brown. ;)
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It was the state of the 500 that put me off it, plus even the 550 looked like it needed a fair bit of work.
Yes there were a lot of extras but my garage is busting already, i offered to build it so it was worth more but the lady jusr wanted rid
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My bike is listed as black on the v5 but it came with a nos brown tank and panels and thats how I remember them from 50 years ago.
Yes , it also came with a 550 engine, not sure why, and as the previous owner sadly died last year Ill never know.
He was most probably going to put a 550 engine in as the 500 is toast. Years ago a lot of owners changed there engines to 550's as, they thought it was a more powerful engine with 50cc more. The 500 and the 550 are the same BHP so, no benefit from a engine change.
The UK CB500 only came in Black, Gold or Brown. ;)
Well That did cross my mind but he went to the trouble of having the 500 covers blasted and polished so Im hoping that engine is good and the 550 is just part of his hoarding habit.
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Where exactly are you? If its Wiltshire you are not far from Gloucester so i could help if you wish
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Where exactly are you? If its Wiltshire you are not far from Gloucester so i could help if you wish
Gary is about 25 miles from us Bryan. It's a nice drive from Lincs to Gloucester though 😊😊
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Better of driving to you then Julie! I looked up Moulton and it said Wiltshire.
Still trying to assemble the 400 jigsaw, its a bit of a bugger when you didnt take it apart and the last one i did was, shall we say several, years ago.
Dont think 3 hours from dynamite to mated cases is too bad!
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Better of driving to you then Julie! I looked up Moulton and it said Wiltshire.
Still trying to assemble the 400 jigsaw, its a bit of a bugger when you didnt take it apart and the last one i did was, shall we say several, years ago.
Dont think 3 hours from dynamite to mated cases is too bad!
Not too bad at all Bryan.
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Where exactly are you? If its Wiltshire you are not far from Gloucester so i could help if you wish
Yes, as Julie says Im a fair way from you, but thanks anyway.
Im hoping I can get the engine done myself but Ill no doubt reach out at for help at some point.
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Some pics of work so far.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=4][attachimg=3][attachimg=5]
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Im sorting out the wiring at the moment. Its going ok, I have a nos loom and the switches are new but may not be correct.
Biggest issue is the length of wires on the switches. where the eck does it all go.
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wiring does vary from 500 to 550 and between different models. Original 500 the wires from the switches run inside the handlebars then meet the main loom in the headlight bucket. the 550 f1 and f2 had a juntion box under the tank so wires from switches are much longer, maybe you have those? also 550k3 is different again, external wires with block connectors, and also slight differences for different countries.
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OK, so it looks like I have 550 switches. I have run the wires through the bars, Ill see if I can hide the excess somewhere.[attachimg=1]
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That looks to be a CB550F/K3 switch or 400 four. On the 500 all wires meet in the head light bowl. On the 550F/K3 they all connect up in a box under the tank, so it would have longer wires ;)
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Thanks for the info. Everything is working so Ill leave it for now. If a genuine switch comes up Ill think about swapping otherwise Ill just shorten the wires.
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UK CB500K1 four switches from 1972 to 1975
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Thats helpful, thanks.
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some progress photos.
Are these the correct footrests cos as you can see the mounting bolt is to short and I'm pretty sure its the right one. (I actually have three if anybody needs one)[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3][attachimg=4][attachimg=5]
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Looking good. I'll take a photo of my foot pegs if it helps. Did you fit new Viton O rings in the carbs?
The engine bolt should definitely stick out further than that through the foot peg, as you need to get a nut and washer on yet.
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i reckon the bolt may be off a 550 f1/f2 as the footrest on those mounts slightly differently. The correct one is threaded at both ends with separate nuts and is a bit longer.
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Here you go.
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I'd buy new float bowl screws, they appear too short and they are meant to be JIS screws with a split washer underneath so they don't vibrate loose.
The carbs also need bench setting, they appear massively out of balance looking at the adjuster screws.
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Are the carbs 550 or 500 ? There is a number on the side to ID them. CB500 carbs run different needles and jets to the 550 ;)
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Looking good. I'll take a photo of my foot pegs if it helps. Did you fit new Viton O rings in the carbs?
The engine bolt should definitely stick out further than that through the foot peg, as you need to get a nut and washer on yet.
Thanks for the pics with such a mix of parts its hard to know what is genuine 500, Ive got some 12mm all thread so Ill cut to size and use that.
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I'd buy new float bowl screws, they appear too short and they are meant to be JIS screws with a split washer underneath so they don't vibrate loose.
The carbs also need bench setting, they appear massively out of balance looking at the adjuster screws.
Thanks, will do.
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Looking good. I'll take a photo of my foot pegs if it helps. Did you fit new Viton O rings in the carbs?
The engine bolt should definitely stick out further than that through the foot peg, as you need to get a nut and washer on yet.
Thanks for the pics with such a mix of parts its hard to know what is genuine 500, Ive got some 12mm all thread so Ill cut to size and use that.
If you need any more reference photos, just shout and I'll email them over to you.
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Are the carbs 550 or 500 ? There is a number on the side to ID them. CB500 carbs run different needles and jets to the 550 ;)
There are no numbers on the carbs-just kei hin.
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Are the carbs 550 or 500 ? There is a number on the side to ID them. CB500 carbs run different needles and jets to the 550 ;)
There are no numbers on the carbs-just kei hin.
The carbs are always numbered. Here's the numbers on one of our 500/4's that's close to hand. 627B Keihin. Yours should have this number or if they are 550/4 carbs, they will be 069A.
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Wow no wonder I missed it. Wife always says im half blind. I have those numbers so at least I have the right carbs--thanks.
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Hi Gary, interesting to read your progress so far - tbh I suspect that had I been a sucessful bidder I would have found your build too challenging as I am not experienced enough to assemble a bike I did not dismantle in the first place.
The green shoots of envy are clearly vissible on me as I read your progress to date. Cheers Ted
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Hi Ted
I thought the same, my previous restorations were always on a complete bike with a running engine.
But I thought the price was ok and I now have that most precious of resources, time. And of course this forum which has already proved invaluable.
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So now for the engine. This is into the unknown so any feedback appreciated.
A local mechanic says the pistons will be good to use with new rings?????
I have two camshafts should I be aware of any markings as to the correct one. They appear identical and measure up in spec so maybe either will do. [attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3][attachimg=4][attachimg=5]
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Not the pistons that matter its the bores, if they are scored,rusty or worn its a rebore and oversize piston kits.
All 500/550 cams are the same, exceept a low power german one for a couple of years(never seen one, only heard of it).
Cam covers can wear the holes the rocker pivot shafts go in, there was a mod on the last couple of years of 550 to stop it.
Most common problem is primary chair wearing a groove into the main galler inside as there is no tensioner and the centre gear selector wears
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Measure the piston to bore clearance and see if within spec. If not, have a rebore to +0.50 over and buy new pistons and rings kit from Cruzinimage. The piston / bore clearance is very tight on these old Hondas and a rebore needs to be no more than 1 thou inch (0.0254 millimetre) (with Cruzinimage kits) piston/ bore clearance. If there are any scuffs, water marks, pitting, rust etc on the bores, it will also need a rebore.
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Thanks both. All noted.
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How come your mechanic didn't spot they were fitted back to front?
You're going to need to dismantle that engine completely. The amount of loose dirt just sitting there right under where the barrels join means that it's a certainty that some has made it's way into the engine itself, you can't have any dirt/rust loose inside the engine or you're asking for a huge amount of trouble.
You can't assume everything is ok on the engine, you need to check and see.
As Bryan says, check the primary chain, rough check is to remove it, sit it on a flat surface upright, so it sits like a tank track. The more it dips in the upper middle the more worn it is, a new chain won't touch the bottom links, the more links that touch the worse it is. Check the primary chain dampers as well, check camchain blade, check camchain. You need to do this now, don't spend money on the engine until you're sure it's a good one.
Lot of surface rust on the cam lobes, if it doesn't just rub off you may need to get one of them reprofiled.
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Cos he didn't see them till I took them off. But that is strange, one of the eight previous owners cocked up i guess.
The whole lump is coming down to the last nut and bolt, at least thats plan A. Plan b is, well at the moment there is no plan b.
Im currently doing battle trying to get that rusty alternator thingy off the end of the crank. My toytown puller isnt up to it.
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The camshaft cleaned up with minimal effort and no sign of pitting.
What do you think of the bores?[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]
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You can not go by looks. You need to take it to a machine shop to be measured up and the pistons must match the bores. Using Honda pistons, bore to piston clearance needs to be 0.0200 mm ;) And a lot of machine shops do not understand how tight it needs to be. Any machine shop who says, it is too tight and will seize, walk away ;)
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Got it . Thanks
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The bores don't look good, I would definitely have a rebore
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DO NOT use a 3 legged, or 2 legged, puller on the rotor, you need the proper tool or yo will wreck both it and the crank
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From what i see of the bores i agree with Julie.
Is Trigger still doing rebores?
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DO NOT use a 3 legged, or 2 legged, puller on the rotor, you need the proper tool or yo will wreck both it and the crank
OK. Ill look into that, thanks.
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From what i see of the bores i agree with Julie.
Is Trigger still doing rebores?
Could you elaborate on why you think that. I'm not disagreeing or arguing just keen to learn.
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Rust patches and water marks always leave pits which make for oil consumtion, high ring wear and sometimes noises
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Spent the last day or two stripping both engines and no real good news. Of the three camshafts I have only one looks even half decent.
The lower case on the 500 has a piece broken off, not sure how critical that is. 550 crank looks the better of the two but I need expert advice on that.
500 clutch is bust but plenty on ebay. Julie if your reading this can you PM a phone number to discuss taking on the rebuild for me.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3][attachimg=4][attachimg=5]
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I've never seen that damage before. The crank webbing has clearly gouged into the casing. Are all those shiny bits pieces of the alloy scattered around? Any corresponding marks on the crank webbing?
Is that Number 2 cylinder it's on, looks like it.
Casing damage looks to be no critical.
You may be better using the 550 bottom end or the complete engine.
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The shiny bits are indents in the casing.
It is no 2, this is the same view of the 550 casing.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
Also pi of crank which just shows "polishing".
When I looked at cases for sale on ebay they seem to show similar wear.
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It is not wear, it has been machined in the factory so, nothing to worry about ;)
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Thanks for that. One less thing to worry about.
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And in further bad news, looks like a chain snap has taken out a chunk of casting that protects the oil pump.
What do you think about using the 550 bottom case. The only difference I can see is an extra oil feed to the final drive shaft.[attachimg=1]
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Cases are machine paired, if you use one you must use both, so either 500 cases or 550 cases. Not a mix and match scenario.
The damage however isn't critical, you'll just get chain lube thrown onto the oil pump with that damage.
Difference in gearbox, selector mechanism, no upper shift drum stopper, different clutch, different clutch casing, different primary drive gear and those are just what I can remember right now.
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OK thanks for that. Ill have to think about which way to go.
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Im going to stick with the 500, trouble is I just keep hitting problems/damaged parts.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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TBH the selectors look toast. All have got some burning/rubbing marks.
What do the 550 ones look like?
The 550 uses a different set of fork selectors so you can't mix and match those either.
I'm still concerned about the shiny side to the journal tower. Yes, they are machined like that from the factory BUT they shouldn't still be shiny. I have 3 sets of cases apart right now and all are dull and oil stained, that's normal. That looks like it's just been done which is why it concerns me a little. I'm betting the 550 cases won't look like that. Also by the number of very small holes in the casings I'm betting something broke or wore really bad in those cases and flung little bits all over the inside. Look at the webbing right at the front of the close up pic of that shiny area, loads and loads of strike hits showing.
Try and take a pic of the bottom case, showing the inner side and top down. It's likely the primary chain has been rubbing on the oil gallery.
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TBH the selectors look toast. All have got some burning/rubbing marks.
What do the 550 ones look like?
The 550 uses a different set of fork selectors so you can't mix and match those either.
I'm still concerned about the shiny side to the journal tower. Yes, they are machined like that from the factory BUT they shouldn't still be shiny. I have 3 sets of cases apart right now and all are dull and oil stained, that's normal. That looks like it's just been done which is why it concerns me a little. I'm betting the 550 cases won't look like that. Also by the number of very small holes in the casings I'm betting something broke or wore really bad in those cases and flung little bits all over the inside. Look at the webbing right at the front of the close up pic of that shiny area, loads and loads of strike hits showing.
Try and take a pic of the bottom case, showing the inner side and top down. It's likely the primary chain has been rubbing on the oil gallery.
Yes forks are toast. The 550 ones are a bit better but I don't really want to use that engine.
The 550 cases look the same ie shiny, the picture at the top of this page is the 550.
I agree something went really wrong with this engine in the past,
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I have a NOS Left hand selector and a NOS centre selector. However they ain't cheap, a NOS centre is extremely rare these days, commanding around £170-200. A NOS left is cheaper at around £130-150.
You want to make me an offer?
OR you can try and find some decent second hand ones, the CL350 uses the same middle selector IIRC but you'd need to find those in the states as a rule.
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I'd be very interested in you selectors and also your clutch inner if you find it.
DSS has centre and left in stock, so let me think about making you an offer. Im out most of the day so Ill get back to you at the weekend.
Might be easier if you just pm me your final price Im not tight but costs are starting to spiral.
Do you need anything I might have, we could swop-p/ex ?
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Yes, you can get them from DSS for about £65 trade price or £80 retail. Bought some at the begging of the year ;)
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Well that's new. DS having some centre ones in, they have not had any for years. They must be a recent addition from some stock he's just acquired in the US where they are easier to find.
The left one however isn't the right type, no idea why he's put a 550 selector picture on there and the part number is wrong.
Found the clutch inner, it cleaned up ok TBH. All the bolt towers are intact. However it does has some alloy corrosion on it, nothing that would prevent it working IMO but they are fairly common so I can't believe someone else hasn't got a better one. I gave a complete 500 clutch away a couple of years ago, I had quite a few lying around. However I just scrapped a load of parts so some might be have been in that lot.
I'd buy the DS centre selector, I'll hang onto mine.
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Well that's new. DS having some centre ones in, they have not had any for years. They must be a recent addition from some stock he's just acquired in the US where they are easier to find.
The left one however isn't the right type, no idea why he's put a 550 selector picture on there and the part number is wrong.
Found the clutch inner, it cleaned up ok TBH. All the bolt towers are intact. However it does has some alloy corrosion on it, nothing that would prevent it working IMO but there are fairly common so I can't believe someone else hasn't got a better one. I gave a complete 500 clutch away a couple of years ago, I had quite a few lying around. However I just scrapped a load of parts so some might be have been in that lot.
I'd buy the DS centre selector, I'll hang onto mine.
Ive made an offer on the clutch you linked to on ebay, so thanks for that.
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Limited progress but various pieces of engine have gone to Graham and the cases have been sent for a dip.
I have plastigauged the big end shells and they all came in at between 1.8 and 2.2 thou so I think that's ok. [attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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Thats about where I am too ;D
bear weth on that hub Gary, just working out sums etc and looking at others like yer do. ::) ;) :)
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Not much progress since Ive been put on gardening duty, but did get a chance to go through the internals.
The needle bearing on the layshaft has one roller missing which may explain the damage to the inside of the upper case. cant imagine how it got free though.
Luckily I have a spare and to my untrained eye the other bearings all feel and look good.
Also had a trial fit of seat and tank, I dont think its the original/correct seat.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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Looking good Gary 8)
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Seat cover isn't original. Need a pic of the seat pan to see if it's on the right base.
500 didn't get the disc guard, the 550 did. You can leave it on though as most people wouldn't know that.
The countershaft is out of a 550 not a 500. Unless you've nicked the needle roller bearing off the 550 as that's a small oil pump on the end.
Check how many teeth the primary drive gear has got. They differ between the 500 and 550 as the clutch basket changed. 500 has 24 and 550 has 26 IIRC.
Change the damper rubbers in the primary drive hub, sure we've already told you that.
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Oddjob, thanks for the input. Ill check things out tomorrow as Im getting my various shafts mixed up in my head.
There seem to be different names for the same thing so Ill do some research.
Everything in that picture came out of the 500 cases.
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Does the needle roller housing on the mainshaft (clutch) have a hole in the centre of it? It needs to as that's where the pushrod goes through. Someone has clearly been mucking around inside as it looks to be a bit of a 500 and a bit of a 550. Which could be a problem as they used different gears for the different models and you can't mix and match.
In your pic, the top shaft is the countershaft or where the front chain sprocket fits.
The next one down is the kickstart shaft.
Then the primary shaft with the primary gear next to the bearing. That's the one with different numbers of teeth for the 2 models.
Front shaft is the mainshaft or clutch shaft and next to that is the primary drive hub. That has a large gear attached that the starter motor uses to spin the motor over.
IIRC the needle rollers uses 2 different methods to hold the needles. The countershaft one uses a cage which holds the needles in place, you can remove it from the housing and they'll stay in place, the mainshaft uses a similar cage BUT the needles are loose and tend to fall out as soon as you remove it from the shaft. That's most likely where one has been lost. I may have a spare loose needle roller around if you need it.
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Some good info there.
Yes clutch shaft has a hole right through.
Primary drive gear has 23 teeth.
I have spare needle rollers.
Ill go through everything tomorrow I have to go play pool and drink Guinness now. :) :) :) :)
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So. The cases have now been acid dipped, painted and baked and Ive started to read assembly instructions.
I got as far as the selector drum stop screw and Im confused. There seem to be two kinds. All I have is a screw with o ring and tab washer no spring or ball but it seems some engines are like that.
Does anyone know if this is correct I think there should at least be a cap of some kind.
Also if you have time could you explain the purpose of said stop screw. (idiots guide please).
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The very early 500s had a small ball bearing with a spring, on the shift drum there is an indent and the ball bearing would go into it and help with neutral selection. However there were some problems with it and Honda redesigned it and issued a recall for all the early ones so they were changed to the later design. The later type has the same bolt but instead of the ball bearing and spring there is a collar which fit's over the shaft at the base of the bolt. The selection mechanism inside the clutch case was also changed.
All the K1 500s have the newer design and most of the K0s after a certain engine number also have the newer design.
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Thanks OJ. Is that all it does< help with neutral selection?
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Nope only locates the drum sideways with roller in groove, all the neutral and gearchange gubbins id behind the clutch, the should be a service bulletin on here somewhere(Ashs dropbox or alladins cave) that shows the mod and how to do it
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The ball bearing was there to aid neutral selection Bryan, that's why there is a recess in it for the ball to drop into, it's in the exact place it needs to be for neutral. They replaced it with a collar which as you say helps stop the drum sliding around and improved the selectors inside the clutch area. The upgrade kit had all the selector mechanism as well as the new bolt for the top IIRC.
The old selector system just wasn't good enough to allow an easy selection of neutral, the yanks complained like hell and got it changed as they had the K0 way before us.
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Thanks guys. Even with the stop screw in place there seems to be some sideways movement of the drum is this normal?
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Does the stop screw still have its little collar fitted?
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No, Ive got to find or make (bodge) one.
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Seat cover isn't original. Need a pic of the seat pan to see if it's on the right base.
500 didn't get the disc guard, the 550 did. You can leave it on though as most people wouldn't know that.
The countershaft is out of a 550 not a 500. Unless you've nicked the needle roller bearing off the 550 as that's a small oil pump on the end.
Check how many teeth the primary drive gear has got. They differ between the 500 and 550 as the clutch basket changed. 500 has 24 and 550 has 26 IIRC.
Change the damper rubbers in the primary drive hub, sure we've already told you that.
500 K2 had a brake guard? Or are we just talking about UK variants?
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I don't usually refer to non UK variants as I don't know for certain what each country got.
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Thought as much.
Looks like the bike is coming along fine. Although not a conkers finish it looks like the purchaser got a reasonable deal and hopefully the resurrection will be worthy of the previous owners praise, although posthumously.
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Does this look correct. It wasnt working when I got it so I dont know how it should be. All the videos of rebuilds I found on utube seem to be for the 550.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]
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Looking at the pics I spotted the locating pin for the needle roller wasn't fitted for the countershaft, have they both been fitted now? Also make sure the needle bearings locate into them, sorry if that sounds patronising but better to do that than let you make a simple mistake.
The crankcase looks to be a 550 pair, yet you're using a 500 gearchange fork setup. Am I wrong?
The gearbox looks to be 550 or it's had a 550 needle roller fitted. The only way to know for sure is to start counting teeth on the gears, there are slight differences between the 500 and 550 gears.
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I agree with Ken that the needle bearing on the LH end of the lower shaft in the bottom pic looks odd to me
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OK thanks to both of you. No locating pins not fitted yet, and its not patronising, thats the kind of thing I would do.
They are deffo 500 cases but your not the first to think otherwise, not sure why.
The gears all came out of these 500 cases but given the state of them nothing would surprise me.
I have a 550 set so Ill count teeth. Would it matter if the needle rollers had been swapped for 550 ones?Thought as much.
Looks like the bike is coming along fine. Although not a conkers finish it looks like the purchaser got a reasonable deal and hopefully the resurrection will be worthy of the previous owners praise, although posthumously.
Just seen yours, beautiful, GLWS.
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Yours will be sound, Gary. You clearly care about the build. Keep it going…
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just what Sesman said... ;)
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Cheers guys, I need all the encouragement I can get.
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Cheers guys, I need all the encouragement I can get.
You're doing just fine Gary.
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It wouldnt be fun if it wasnt hard work, frustrating, time sapping and uncomfortable nights spent in cold garages and not to mention, increasingly, eye wateringly expensive! ;D
Plus, it makes it all the more satisfying when it fires up. HUGE swell head rights are a given and the whole process aids in polishing your Anglo Saxon vocab.................. Tripple winner, Crack on Gary, its going to be a fantastic result..keep it up mate. 8) ;)
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The 550 is a different bearing with an integrated oil pump to lube the gear shafts but it wont work on 500, would worry me it might lock up as no oil would be pumped
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It wouldnt be fun if it wasnt hard work, frustrating, time sapping and uncomfortable nights spent in cold garages and not to mention, increasingly, eye wateringly expensive! ;D
Plus, it makes it all the more satisfying when it fires up. HUGE swell head rights are a given and the whole process aids in polishing your Anglo Saxon vocab.................. Tripple winner, Crack on Gary, its going to be a fantastic result..keep it up mate. 8) ;)
Copy that.
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The 550 is a different bearing with an integrated oil pump to lube the gear shafts but it wont work on 500, would worry me it might lock up as no oil would be pumped
Ok the mix and match nature of my stash of bits is starting to worry me.
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I'll see if I can find a needle roller out of a 500 for you Gary. No cost. Do you have any of the pins out of one?
It was the slot cut out of the casing where that needle bearing goes, can't remember it on the 500, probably just old age setting in.
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Oddjob thats fantastic of you, but just hold off for the moment. I really need to step back and see exactly what I have.
I just compared the shafts against those from a 550 and they appear identical. Im beginning to think someone tried to put a 550 gear set in.
Do you think thats likely, is it even possible?
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They'll fit but it's possible the forks may not line up properly.
One giveaway on the countershaft is that it has a small cutout in the end of it, opposite end to where the sprocket goes. Look inside the needle roller and you'll see a small flange that turns the little oil pump, the 500 doesn't have anything in the shaft that can drive that, the 550 has. If you see that you know it's a 550 without checking the number of teeth on the gears.
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My primary shaft has 23 teeth which I think is correct for a 500, both the other shafts have the small oil pumps on the end.
Its all very confusing.
As a positive note just got back from Julie and Grahams with a whole heap of shiny parts. ;D
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OOOO, giz a look at yer treasure then! :o :)
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OOOO, giz a look at yer treasure then! :o :)
Yes Ill get some picys up tomorrow.
I had to leave things for a day or so, just couldn't figure things out and ended up confusing my self and getting very pissed off with the damn thing.
It doesn't help that I have such a mix of parts but I think Ive got it sorted now.
The 3 shafts are, as far as I can tell, identical between the 500 and 550. Ive counted teeth till I see em in my sleep and the only difference is the primary drive shaft which has 23 on the 500 and 24 550.
And of course the needle bearings are different on the main and counter as the 550 has the oil pumps.
Tomorrow I'm going to do a temporary "dry" build to check the gear change action. So far it all seems fine rotating the drum by hand.
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Just what I've done tonight, still on with it and might get the cases together if shes asleep yet ;) ;D
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[attachimg=1]
OOOO shiny bits
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Now thats a haul and a good few evenings worth of fiddling............Good on yer :)
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“ It’s a piston engine….it was a bargain”. 😁
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“ It’s a piston engine….it was a bargain”. 😁
Yeah thats what I tell the wife too.
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So completed the dry build and amazingly it all seems to work.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]
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Now disassembling and redoing with correct bearing housings (thanks to oddjob).
This means I now have 550 needle bearing housings (the ones with oil pump) going spare so if anybody needs em FOC give us a shout.
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With so many mixed parts your build must be like mixing up two jigsaw puzzles then trying to complete one without a picture to help.
Amazing progress so far - I would be having sleepless nights plus getting up at 2.00 am to check something.
Then when you think you have done it Ken points out something you have missed - beware - Ken can be the joker in the pack sometimes.
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Never ;D ;D ;D
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Oh and when fitting the clutch casing, don't forget there's a washer that goes onto the kickstart shaft to go between the circlip and the casing.
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With so many mixed parts your build must be like mixing up two jigsaw puzzles then trying to complete one without a picture to help.
Amazing progress so far - I would be having sleepless nights plus getting up at 2.00 am to check something.
Then when you think you have done it Ken points out something you have missed - beware - Ken can be the joker in the pack sometimes.
Yeah, its the mix of parts that is causing a few issues, and TBF dont think I could have got this far without the forum. and of course if it goes bang on start up it will be you lots fault :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Oh and when fitting the clutch casing, don't forget there's a washer that goes onto the kickstart shaft to go between the circlip and the casing.
Yep spotted that, finding it is a different matter :)
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Some progress has been made but now I cant find/don't have the two locating dowels that slip over the studs.
Re the washers that go under the stud nuts, will any washer of the correct diameter do or must they be the specific ones, dont have them either?[attachimg=1]
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Some people say they are copper and some say they are steel. Both are correct. I've seen both fitted. They are the same part number as the lower crankcase bolts use. I have a load lying around. How many do you need?
The dowels may have been destroyed by the PO as they can resist coming out and they tend to distort when you force them. I'd order some new ones.
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I would. They are a couple of quid each, but new is good for peace of mind.
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as mine were a bit passed tneir best. Keeps your head in the righ place if your'e sure you've done it the best you can.
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Good news is I found some dowels in the 550 block that was on the scrap pile. :)
Having another look for washers.
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How hard is it to get the cam through the chain?
I "dry" fitted the head and just cant get the cam through the sprocket, the chain dont seem long enough. I removed the tensioner and its still to tight.
I must be doing something wrong or there's a nack I haven't got. I have to go out now but Ill google for a "how to" video when I get back.
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There is indeed “a knack” . Study the manual carefully. The trick is to start with the chain on the right side of the cam sprocket, locate one bolt then slowly turn the cam to locate the second bolt. Trust me. Providing you have the correct number of chain links it will work…it’s just a fiddle. It might take a couple of goes to ensure the timing is correct.
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Look at the cam sprocket and you can see where it will drop down more, chain not on sproket but alongside fit cam through both from lh side if memory is right get chain on sprocket with the sprocket dropped down then walk it round sprocket till marks in correct place, use large bladed screwdriver to lift sprocket onto cam.
This will only work if you have fitted the front cushion in the correct place as per book
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Fit tensioner and make sure the bottom of it locates in the slot in the lower crankcase. Release adjusting nut, push blade back as far as it will go and then lock the adjusting nut. Then fit head.
Fitting the camchain is just something you get used to. First time is just learning, after that it becomes easier and easier. As Bryan says, locate sprocket on cam loosely, just let it dangle, fit cam through chain from left hand side, drop into place, fit chain on sprocket and as Bryan describes walk the chain round until the marks on the sprocket line up parallel to the head surface. Line the mark in the cam as per manual and then lift the sprocket on with a screwdriver. Check alignment before fitting any bolts, sometimes it looks right but is a tooth out when it's mounted, in which case knock it off and redo after moving chain a link.
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Start from this position and do as Ken and Bryan suggest. It’s a faff, but it works.
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Thanks all. had a couple of beers now so will look in the morning.
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Can anyone confirm the number of links in the cam chain please. Im thinking I have the wrong one.
It wont matter to much as I wasn't going to use it anyway, just having a trial fitting.
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Like i said, i have seen the front chain cushion put in the wrong side of the chain making it impossible to fit the sprocket to cam, the cushion goes inside the chain facing forwards which is not the intuitive way of fitting.
If you look at an online parts book i seem to remember it saying how long the chain is but my books are stashed away at the moment
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Like i said, i have seen the front chain cushion put in the wrong side of the chain making it impossible to fit the sprocket to cam, the cushion goes inside the chain facing forwards which is not the intuitive way of fitting.
If you look at an online parts book i seem to remember it saying how long the chain is but my books are stashed away at the moment
Bryan I am a complete nob. Exactly that^^^^. Had the picture in front of me as well. I really shouldn't be allowed a set of spanners. Thanks to all who replied.
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You aint the first and wont be the last, by the way the slot in the end of the tensioner screw is for assembly purposes only DO NOT use a screwdriver to force the tensioner blade tighter, seen too many wrecked tensioners that way.
ALSO read, reread and read again the warnings in the manual on fitting cam cover, valves and guides are expensive now
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You aint the first and wont be the last, by the way the slot in the end of the tensioner screw is for assembly purposes only DO NOT use a screwdriver to force the tensioner blade tighter, seen too many wrecked tensioners that way.
ALSO read, reread and read again the warnings in the manual on fitting cam cover, valves and guides are expensive now
Will do-Cheers
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Not sure if you've seen or heard of this Gary but everyone now (except me of course) uses elastic bands to hold the rocker arms up, just band the 2 together inlet to exhaust, so they pull each other up, you'll need 4 bands of sufficient strength. I've never done that myself as I tend to just lift them up by hand but TBH it's probably a better method than mine, almost fool proof. Wind the adjuster screws almost out as well. Better safe than sorry.
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Not sure if you've seen or heard of this Gary but everyone now (except me of course) uses elastic bands to hold the rocker arms up, just band the 2 together inlet to exhaust, so they pull each other up, you'll need 4 bands of sufficient strength. I've never done that myself as I tend to just lift them up by hand but TBH it's probably a better method than mine, almost fool proof. Wind the adjuster screws almost out as well. Better safe than sorry.
Trigger did it for me after reconditioning the head and rockers etc.[attachimg=1]
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Late 550 rocker box instead of a 500 one, good mod to do as they are better than the 500s.
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Late 550 rocker box instead of a 500 one, good mod to do as they are better than the 500s.
yes I thought that was the way to go.
OK I cant lie. Trigger just recond the best one I had. I had no idea there was any difference. :)
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Those 4 bolts in the middle are to hold the rocker shafts to stop them rotating. The 500 doesn't have them and it has been known for the rocker shafts to oval out the camcover. It was an upgrade by Honda to rectify that problem.
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Those 4 bolts in the middle are to hold the rocker shafts to stop them rotating. The 500 doesn't have them and it has been known for the rocker shafts to oval out the camcover. It was an upgrade by Honda to rectify that problem.
That makes sense.
Any clues as to the origin of this seat?[attachimg=1]
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That could be a 550 F2. Are you selling it, if so first dabs please.
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Looks like a 500K1 seat. Not a 550 as that has a tool kit holder on the rear.
I've not seen one with rubbers fitted in the air holes before though, probably fitted to stop the edges from rusting
Oh and to answer your question about the camchain, it's 88 links for the 500/550 although you've sorted the problem now.
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That could be a 550 F2. Are you selling it, if so first dabs please.
It fits my 500 quite well, but if I can get a genuine 500 (or even a replica) at a reasonable price I will sell it and you def have first dibs.
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That is a genuine 500 one Gary, the ones DS sells are replicas and don't fit as well as that will. Remove the cover and the foam and get the pan powder coated, just fit the 5 standard cushion rubbers. Check the bolt holes for the seat bracket aren't stripped out before having it powder coated. If they are get 2 nuts welded to the inside after removing the captive nuts Honda used.
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Looks like a 500K1 seat. Not a 550 as that has a tool kit holder on the rear.
I've not seen one with rubbers fitted in the air holes before though, probably fitted to stop the edges from rusting
Oh and to answer your question about the camchain, it's 88 links for the 500/550 although you've sorted the problem now.
O if it is 500 thats why it fits well so Ill keep it unless a better one turns up.
I put those grommets in - thought it looked better.
yes, sorted on cam chain thanks.
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That is a genuine 500 one Gary, the ones DS sells are replicas and don't fit as well as that will. Remove the cover and the foam and get the pan powder coated, just fit the 5 standard cushion rubbers. Check the bolt holes for the seat bracket aren't stripped out before having it powder coated. If they are get 2 nuts welded to the inside after removing the captive nuts Honda used.
Cheers oddjob thats good to know
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Yes, I’ve just checked my 550 F2. It’s a 500 seat pan.
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About ready to go in. started to get the clutch in order and seem to have everything but the push rod. DS have them used for £15 or I can by silver Steele 8mm rod in the correct length for £7.50.
What do you think is the best option?
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About ready to go in. started to get the clutch in order and seem to have everything but the push rod. DS have them used for £15 or I can by silver Steele 8mm rod in the correct length for £7.50.
What do you think is the best option?
You should have said last time you were here, we have NOS ones in the draw and very good used ones🙄🙄🙄 Silver steel is good but you need to have the ends hardened.
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Well its in the frame and spins over on the starter, so far so good.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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Top work Gary, nice one. Looks great, I bet youre chuffed? ;) :)
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Cheers Roo, where are you.
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That’s looking really nice.
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Thats brilliant prgress Gary, how is the budget going?
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cheers guys. Budget is up around 3.5k
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What Exhaust system are you planning to fit?
I'm at the very start of my 500 ownership - trying to cost stuff to get some sort of handle on expenditure well before I start throwing money into the pit.
My 400 rebuild was my first ever & tbh it's real value today compared to what I spent is what supermarkets call a loss leader. I don't begrudge the cost as it was a life saver during lock down. I very much doubt I will ever part with it as it's a very personal specification.
The 500 will be a very different story when I get going - at least I think it will.lol
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Cheers Roo, where are you.
South Carolina in a place called Estill. For 7 weeks so hurridly chasing goodies around. Currently needing the exit pipe size for a 550 F2 so I can get the right end can Im after whilst out here. Saves me about 175 quid if I can pull it off in my luggage again 8)
The actress said to the bishop.............sorry! ;D
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What Exhaust system are you planning to fit?
I'm at the very start of my 500 ownership - trying to cost stuff to get some sort of handle on expenditure well before I start throwing money into the pit.
My 400 rebuild was my first ever & tbh it's real value today compared to what I spent is what supermarkets call a loss leader. I don't begrudge the cost as it was a life saver during lock down. I very much doubt I will ever part with it as it's a very personal specification.
The 500 will be a very different story when I get going - at least I think it will.lol
cant begrudge the cost, it's soul restoration in my eyes. ;) :)
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Yup, I’d say the average cost/value/pleasure/satisfaction/achievement/enjoyment equation is net zero. However the cost Vs value equation always seems to be in the region of 20% loss for us mere mortals. It really depends how brutal/fastidious you are during the build, the initial base bike purchase cost and access to ‘spares’. A complete engine refurb for example rarely costs less than £800-£1000 (seals, gaskets, chains, rubbers, shells, guides, case cleaning, rebore, pistons, rings, paint, clutch, head work, goo...). Add £1k for exhausts and another £600 - £1000 for a good or very good paint job and the writing is on the wall. That’s before we get into chrome, seats and ancillary items. Now if you want concours…..£££££. The route to a good value build is really dependent on acquiring a cheap, straight and substantially complete machine, ready access to a stock of spares, a good outsourcing network and a willingness to trade skills and goods.
Me, I’m a convert and in the future will buy the finished article with evidence of work done so I can focus on riding and a little tinkering.
I justify the overspend with foolish notions of the ‘depreciation’ I’d suffer buying a new bike and call it evens after a couple of years.
And what do you do with your money?. I just blew £1500 on a 10 day blast through France and Spain. Great fun and great memories, but a £1500 overspend on my 550 is tolerable if it gives me a few years of pleasure.
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Interesting perspectives on the cost of restoring old bikes.
At my age it's more about the joy of the build than the ride.
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Absolutely…..at any age actually.👍
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Gary. Out of pure interest, is that a 550 motor in your 500 chassis?
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Nice work Gary! Just a joy to see another saved from the metal shredder. I do think that this bike restoration game should be prescribed out of health and historical interest. It’s definitely a tonic. Had the 550 out yesterday for a 30 mile round trip before the rain came and it never fails to make me smile.
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I was out on the 500 last night;I had some errands to run. I was parked outside A&E when I was approached by the visiting police. He asked out of interest if the bike was one of those modern retro jobs made in Taiwan! I explained that “no, it was one of those retro jobs made modern in the UK”.
He then went on to ask about MOT and Tax……
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Gary. Out of pure interest, is that a 550 motor in your 500 chassis?
Looks to be a 500 Phil, seal inside sprocket area looks to have a hole for the pushrod. The cam cover is pure 550 though, you can see the rocker shafts clamp nuts.
I can also see the engine number and it looks to say 500 not 550.
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I know it’s thrown me. I can’t see the gear selector drum bolt on top of the engine casing?
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What Exhaust system are you planning to fit?
I'm at the very start of my 500 ownership - trying to cost stuff to get some sort of handle on expenditure well before I start throwing money into the pit.
My 400 rebuild was my first ever & tbh it's real value today compared to what I spent is what supermarkets call a loss leader. I don't begrudge the cost as it was a life saver during lock down. I very much doubt I will ever part with it as it's a very personal specification.
The 500 will be a very different story when I get going - at least I think it will.lol
The bike came with a set of exhausts, 2 honda and 2 lord knows what. They are far from perfect but will do to start with.
When I started the project I had three possible outcomes in mind.
1) sell it
2) start again and go concurs
3) start again and customise to my taste (flattracker style)
Im going to need a project so as its a bit too good to chop about I think Ill sell it and start again with a rough 550. Especially as Im now an expert :) :) :) (not)
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Cheers Roo, where are you.
South Carolina in a place called Estill. For 7 weeks so hurridly chasing goodies around. Currently needing the exit pipe size for a 550 F2 so I can get the right end can Im after whilst out here. Saves me about 175 quid if I can pull it off in my luggage again 8)
The actress said to the bishop.............sorry! ;D
Lucky you, spent many happy years in the deep south. Dont miss the grits though. :)
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Yup, I’d say the average cost/value/pleasure/satisfaction/achievement/enjoyment equation is net zero. However the cost Vs value equation always seems to be in the region of 20% loss for us mere mortals. It really depends how brutal/fastidious you are during the build, the initial base bike purchase cost and access to ‘spares’. A complete engine refurb for example rarely costs less than £800-£1000 (seals, gaskets, chains, rubbers, shells, guides, case cleaning, rebore, pistons, rings, paint, clutch, head work, goo...). Add £1k for exhausts and another £600 - £1000 for a good or very good paint job and the writing is on the wall. That’s before we get into chrome, seats and ancillary items. Now if you want concours…..£££££. The route to a good value build is really dependent on acquiring a cheap, straight and substantially complete machine, ready access to a stock of spares, a good outsourcing network and a willingness to trade skills and goods.
Me, I’m a convert and in the future will buy the finished article with evidence of work done so I can focus on riding and a little tinkering.
I justify the overspend with foolish notions of the ‘depreciation’ I’d suffer buying a new bike and call it evens after a couple of years.
And what do you do with your money?. I just blew £1500 on a 10 day blast through France and Spain. Great fun and great memories, but a £1500 overspend on my 550 is tolerable if it gives me a few years of pleasure.
I agree with just about everything here, except for me its more about the tinkering, I still ride modern bikes but need something to do. Especially in the long winter evenings
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Gary. Out of pure interest, is that a 550 motor in your 500 chassis?
No def a 500, least it was till trigger rebored it. ;D
The reason the drum bolt is missing is cos it wont change gear with it in :(.
Ive done the walk away and ave acup of tea for now.
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Aha. That explains it.Sorry I can’t help with the gear change issues.
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Nice work Gary! Just a joy to see another saved from the metal shredder. I do think that this bike restoration game should be prescribed out of health and historical interest. It’s definitely a tonic. Had the 550 out yesterday for a 30 mile round trip before the rain came and it never fails to make me smile.
Thanks Johnny. Your right should be available on the NHS.
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Gary. Out of pure interest, is that a 550 motor in your 500 chassis?
No def a 500, least it was till trigger rebored it. ;D
The reason the drum bolt is missing is cos it wont change gear with it in :(.
Ive done the walk away and ave acup of tea for now.
If it won't change gear with it in then there's a problem that needs addressing.
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Mmmm. If the guide screw aperture is clear from above, then you have to suspect the guide screw assembly? Is it locking up the change drum solid as you screw it down?
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You are certain that the drum is in the neutral position when inserting the screw and that the ball bearing is the correct one? I’m sure it will be fine and apologies for stating the obvious.
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Yes its in the neutral position I can see the indent, there is no ball bearing, its the latter kind. Just the screw and a collar.
I may have the wrong collar Ill post a pic when I get back out there, probably tomorrow
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Got to be the wrong collar. Does it jam if you don't fit the collar eg just the bolt?
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No it works ok without the collar. I just went out to try again and turned the collar over as one end was very slightly more rounded and now it works.
Possible the collar is worn?
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That bolt was modified early to late and without the tab washer can bind the drum, also the later bolt has a loose collar that fits into the drum groove to locate it sideways, if the collar is wrong in sizes, diameter or depth, it could bind as well
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I think the collar is worn, but its working ok now.
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A few more bits bolted on and tappets set.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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Hers a pic with a distant relative.[attachimg=1]
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Can I suggest something Gary.
It's looking really good.
However when doing stuff like this you need to think of practicalities, like if I got a puncture by the road how would I go about fixing it, stuff like that. The reason I mention that is because it's better to have the rear spindle nut on the right side of the bike, yours is on the left. Not a great thing but IF the spindle nut is tight, and for some reason they seem to be tighter after a few months than when you fitted them, mainly I think because we fit them with a socket but then by the road you have to try to get the spanner from the tool kit to get it undone and it doesn't have anywhere near the leverage. With that in mind it's better to be pushing down than lifting up, you can use your body weight going down, stand on it with your foot etc. You can't do that if it's on the left as the exhausts get in the way.
It's just a suggestion, you can ignore it if you want.
I don't know what that is inside the air filter box but it's not meant to be there. The tool tray has a small mesh fitting which goes over that oval shape and there is nothing on top of the air filter at all, it's completely open.
Saying that, I'd also suggest fitting the breather cap and covering the inlet manifold holes up with tape, you don't want anything to get inside an engine when it's open like that. Your garage looks very clean but dust/grit etc gets blown around.
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Good point on the nut, I put it that side cos thats where it is on other 500s Ive seen.
Yes mesh is missing on air intake (working on that) but the lid is on the filter box and tool tray is there, thats just a small auxilary fuel tank that got left lying about.
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Ahh, there is no lid on the airfilter box Gary, the 550 has a sort of snorkel affair but the 500 hasn't, it's completely open and you can see the airfilter through the mesh when it's fitted. The upper brackets on the 550 holding the airbox in place has small studs fitted which the airbox snorkel fits and it's then held on with wing nuts, the 500 brackets don't have these studs, they are flat on top.
The 550F never got the tool tray Gary, the tools are inside the seat at the back. Hence why they got a snorkel to stop any water being dropped down there from the seat foam when you sat on it. For some reason Honda didn't seem to think that might happen on the 500 or maybe there are no holes above that point.
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Well thats interesting, the lid I have clips onto the bolts that hold the airbox but it is a bit wobblily. Obviously not meant to be there.
Friday night is beer and pool so Ill investigate in the morning.
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The European 500 got some sort of airbox cover but I don't think it's that one. They got different carbs though as well so compensate and run much different size jets.
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This fecker.?
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No, TBH I'd forgotten about that little thing. It's a cover that goes across the entire top of the box, has a small curled over section. I believe it was installed to reduce induction roar.
CMS haven't got that correct parts book for the European model, not sure where there will be one.
They come up occasionally on Ebay.
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[attachimg=1]
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[attachimg=1]
2nd photo is correct for your bike Gary, 1st pic incorrect type.
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I think I have two of those knocking about the workshop, and the fuse holders too..............not using them and surplus if you cant find one Gary ;)
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If the cover is rocking horse shite the fuse holders are the chromed version!
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Thanks for the pics Julie that makes it all clear. I actually have both versions, seems I dont need the lid.
Roo thanks for the offer but Im all good.
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Cool, absolutely no worries Gary..
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Seem to recall Julie sells the fuse holder, Graham had some made a few years ago.
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Theres an 18 mm washer that goes on the kick start shaft before the cover goes on, will any 18mm washer do or is it a specific o/d and thickness.
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I think it has to be a specified thickness to stop the shaft floating. I'll have a look to see if I got any with the spare engines I bought.
Yep, found 2, I'll pop one in the post for you Gary.
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can you send me the other one Ken? ;) 8)
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Thanks Ken thats fantastic. :)
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can you send me the other one Ken? ;) 8)
Cheeky bugger. Yeah. I'll add it to the pile.
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Thanks mate, had that on my list bu't hadn't got round to finding one. Only if its spare mind 8)
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Must check my own engine to see where I threw the one fitted to that, most likely in the large box of bolts I just lobbed everything into.
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Getting in front of myself a bit, but Ive read on here somewhere that DS exhaust brackets are pretty poor. Is this true and if so where would be a good place to look.
There's not much on ebay.
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The DS brackets may need a bit of tweeking but the pattern ones are all made by the same people. Genuine ones ,both new and used, do come up on fleabay occasionaly but usually in US. I think Ash did some comparrisons of pattern to genuine and put measurements up but not sure
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OK thanks
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That place in Stoke, can't remember the name, had some genuine ones for sale a few weeks ago.
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DK Ken?
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https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332657536677?hash=item4d73ef2ea5:g:20oAAOSwI3lg3xgu
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/312623701616?hash=item48c9d31e70:g:W8sAAOSwzA9gPhBA
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333833882050?hash=item4dba0cc9c2:g:ct8AAOSwpqFgOhIT
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353328910058?hash=item52440b4eea:g:TbkAAOSwJDhgOhIg
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Yes I did see them but together there more expensive than the DS new ones. Ill try make an offer.
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Yes I did see them but together there more expensive than the DS new ones. Ill try make an offer.
Thing is they will probably fit without hassle ......
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DK Ken?
Yeah, DK, I kept thinking DS but of course that's Dave Silver.
Gary, get the 2 lowest priced ones and have them powder coated. Even genuine Honda ones are not painted very well, I had a NOS one recently and that had an awful finish.
I checked my BILs DS brackets against my genuine ones, the lower ones were well out, the uppers weren't that far out but saying that I couldn't say they were that way when bought as he could have bent them trying to get the exhausts to line up.
Ash did a thread about the DS brackets compared to genuine, you can find it if you look.
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Well I went for the DS ones and they went on with no real problem. One side was a bit tight but that could be due to the after market exhausts on that side.
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So today I couldn't resist a trial start up. After 5 or 6 tries it started and ran and revd. BUT then I saw smoke/fumes coming from the generator cover, through the holes that hold the Honda badge on. I removed the cover and it looks like the rotor is very slightly rubbing the stator. I do have another of each, should I try swapping or will it "bed in" and settle down. The cover was VERY hot.
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Is the rotor really rusty?
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It definitely will not bed in - there should be no contact between rotor & stator.
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No not rusty at all.
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Dismantle and see where the wear marks are.
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Is it the right rotor for the engine & is it bolted up tight?
The stator is held in place with a series of 3 or 4 bolts into the housing.
Is it the correct housing & stator?
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Yep, done that. Ill try to take some pics.
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Is it the right rotor for the engine & is it bolted up tight?
The stator is held in place with a series of 3 or 4 bolts into the housing.
Is it the correct housing & stator?
Well I've got a mix of parts but its def 500 or 550. Which I think are the same. They certainly look it and I'm thinking it works cos the engine ran with the battery disconnected.
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So today I couldn't resist a trial start up. After 5 or 6 tries it started and ran and revd.
Can't believe that box of bits with a wheeled frame is already a runner - well done Gary.
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Cheers Ted, but "runner" is a bit optimistic at the moment.
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Have you got the alternator and stator in the right way round Gary?. There should be clearance if they are fitted correctly. And is the flywheel correctly torqued?
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Have you got the alternator and stator in the right way round Gary?. There should be clearance if they are fitted correctly. And is the flywheel correctly torqued?
Pretty sure I have Julie, but Ill go over it in the morning. Yes torqued up to spec.
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Not a lot of clearance when set right. There is a couple of dowels to align casing. I forgot mine on the 550 start up and I had contact. Was quickly remedied with dowels in place.
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Check the rotor is spinning true, i have had a bent crank end before
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Not a lot of clearance when set right. There is a couple of dowels to align casing. I forgot mine on the 550 start up and I had contact. Was quickly remedied with dowels in place.
Good point, Ill check.
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Check the rotor is spinning true, i have had a bent crank end before
OK, Ill spin it on the starter and see if it "wobbles". Thanks
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Check the rotor is spinning true, i have had a bent crank end before
OK, Ill spin it on the starter and see if it "wobbles". Thanks
Do Not start it without the cover on as, the oil pressure will push the bung out and you will have all the oil on the floor ;)
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Plus the bung will disapear into the dimmest darkest corner of the workshop, not to be seen again until you have taken out a second mortgage to buy the lasy unobtainium one on the planet!
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Cheers Ted, but "runner" is a bit optimistic at the moment.
I did say runner not a rider.lol
I'm still impressed with where you have gotten - my 500 is spread all over my garage in boxes & baskets - I go to sleep trying to imagine what it will look like with a Nut Brown frame - getting to the freezer in our garage is presently akin to an obstacle course.
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Check the rotor is spinning true, i have had a bent crank end before
OK, Ill spin it on the starter and see if it "wobbles". Thanks
Do Not start it without the cover on as, the oil pressure will push the bung out and you will have all the oil on the floor ;)
Cheers Trig, thats good advice, and probably what I would have done.
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Plus the bung will disapear into the dimmest darkest corner of the workshop, not to be seen again until you have taken out a second mortgage to buy the lasy unobtainium one on the planet!
Yep, just had to scour the garage for a tank mount rubber that bounced into oblivion.
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Cheers Ted, but "runner" is a bit optimistic at the moment.
I did say runner not a rider.lol
I'm still impressed with where you have gotten - my 500 is spread all over my garage in boxes & baskets - I go to sleep trying to imagine what it will look like with a Nut Brown frame - getting to the freezer in our garage is presently akin to an obstacle course.
Been there Ted. I even tripped over some bits on the garage floor and smashed my Fireblades fairing.
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Cheers Ted, but "runner" is a bit optimistic at the moment.
I did say runner not a rider.lol
I'm still impressed with where you have gotten - my 500 is spread all over my garage in boxes & baskets - I go to sleep trying to imagine what it will look like with a Nut Brown frame - getting to the freezer in our garage is presently akin to an obstacle course.
Been there Ted. I even tripped over some bits on the garage floor and smashed my Fireblades fairing.
Oh no that's terrible to hear - what a bummer!
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Not a lot of clearance when set right. There is a couple of dowels to align casing. I forgot mine on the 550 start up and I had contact. Was quickly remedied with dowels in place.
Well it seems I only had one dowel in, found the other by kneeling on it. Hopefully that will do it, doesnt take much to cause contact. Thanks for the advice.
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And how's yer knee?
Bet that was like walking on a bit of Leggo,doesnt halfmake you get up quick ;D
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Dead right-still smarts. Didnt swear (much)
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aaaahhh, the familiar Anglo Saxon announcement at times like this ;D ;D ;D ;D
Alwaysappears to help!......That or get you a telling offbecausefolk can hear ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Just like me walking into the garage door when getting bits for those 400 carbs i di, got a delicate hole in my forehead and my wife said "did you swear"
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Yeah, laughing all the skin off my forehead dear, of course I didnt swear!! ;D ;D ;D
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Check the rotor is spinning true, i have had a bent crank end before
OK, Ill spin it on the starter and see if it "wobbles". Thanks
Do Not start it without the cover on as, the oil pressure will push the bung out and you will have all the oil on the floor ;)
Cheers Trig, thats good advice, and probably what I would have done.
I did on the 400/4 and trust me it takes a while to clear it up ;) >:(
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I can only imagine. Im a bit ocd about my garage, wife wishes it applied to the kitchen.
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I was a bit ocd everything put away in the old kitchen cupboards in my garage - they had a Dyna Label on each shelf then as the decades have nipped by I just can't be arsed as my collection clutter has increased.
Final straw was giving up half the cupboards & wall racks for Wendy.
Now I can spend a good 40 minutes doing a 10 minute job - other 30 mins is looking for the safe place that I would never forget where it was.
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same for everyone Ted, cant believe you relinquished all that shed room..............tell Wendy to get her own shed ;D ;D
I'd probably pop your helmet on before starting that conversation though ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Sorry Roo I don't have a death wish.😁😁😁
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A wise move mate ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Couldnt resist dressing her up, sorry the photos are a bit crap my camera keeps reverting to 10mp which is to big for the forum so I took pictures from the computer and posted those.
Most tech defeats me.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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Thats looking great, i like the brown colour.
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Looking VERY nice - well done !!
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Thanks guys. I like the brown, which is just as well cos it came with a nos tank :)
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That’s looking great Gary! Sorry, but that yellow cable ties keep catching my eye! 🤪
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Looking great Gary.
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Loving That Gary, well done buddy. Love the Brown on that but dont Tell Ted I said anything ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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looks tidy. Just needs the seat sorting and putting all the plastic cable ties in the bin ::)
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Wow that's quite impressive looking especially thinking back to the box of mixed bits you started with you must be chuffed to bits.
I find the yellow cable ties rather endearing.
Have you ridden it yet?
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WOW tough crowd RE cable ties :'(
No, really they are a leftover from using an auxiliary tank. The real tank has to come off again to balance carbs at which time all (visible) cable ties will be removed. :)
I haven't ridden it yet do to carb issues but hope to soon.
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Absolutely gorgeous, you are doing a fine job.
Cheers
Dennis
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WOW tough crowd RE cable ties :'(
I think it's called Tough Love. ;D
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I can take it. ;D
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Beautiful job you must be very proud. Hope you get the carbs sorted ready for a ride before the weather gets too bad.
Remember what you do to your bike is entirely up to you and your tastes!!!
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Did I mention the cable ties? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Did I mention the cable ties? ;D ;D ;D ;D
oooo that hurts >:(
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Remember what you do to your bike is entirely up to you and your tastes!!!
True unless you fancy a Nut Brown frame!😁😁😁
Then it's worse than a yellow cable tie.
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Did I mention the cable ties? ;D ;D ;D ;D
oooo that hurts >:(
Quiet chortle, I hadn't even noticed em Gary, loving the bike Gary, dont listen to the mean, big boys. ;)
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Will you stop with the nut brown frame Ted, I've only just stopped vomiting from the last mention ;D ;D ;D
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Sorry Ken I'm still in mourning about the change of heart to black.
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Ive had a few days off to sort the bloody garden, which is something I hate but has to be done. Anyway, as I said Ive got it running but it has the dreaded hanging idle. I can set tickover at 1k but when I rev it it sticks at around 3k, then if I lower tickover to 1k it dies. Restart it and the cycle just starts again, its the same as is being discussed in the 400 section.
Ive tried the carb cleaner trick and revs dont rise. What is the significance of the "bridge" between the lifters, mine look to be home made are they a vital part?
Im seriously thinking of taking them off and getting a pro to rebuild them. (who do we know that would do that). At least that way Id know they were right, it might as well be rocket science to me.
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Gerben does the carbs, however he does seem to do them on an exchange basis and it's been known for him to send carbs which don't suit the bike, for instance a set of European carbs with smaller jets for a UK bike, getting them to run without the airbox snorkel is difficult.
The small metal figure 8 pieces between the vac adjusters is normal, I'd leave them on.
Clearly the carbs haven't been set up right, there is a knack to it but if it's beyond your skill set I'd get someone else to do it, Bryan isn't that far from you in Gloucester so maybe he'd be interested.
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Yore in Moulton in NY arent you Gary? Practically next door ;D
If Bryan cant I'll sort em for you mate, get em sent down. In all honesty, Oddjob is closer to you than I am (ha!) but happy to help if you get stuck. I like doing carbsd and have all the ugubbons here for refurbs and or cleaning and set up.
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Gary is in Moulton, Lincolnshire, just down the road from us 😁😁😁.
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OK, same name. Ken is closer though ;D
I see Ive got my bestest typing sausages on point today!!??
For christ sake! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I will have a go if you want but postage will kill it as i refuse to use Hermes/evri
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Fair point..............Trigg it is then ;D
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Thanks for all that, Im still trying to do it myself at the moment but getting close to saying f*** it.
Ill let you know.
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Fair point..............Trigg it is then ;D
Yes. Deff the best option for me.
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PM'd you TE the wheel gubbins ;)
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Yore in Moulton in NY arent you Gary? Practically next door ;D
If Bryan cant I'll sort em for you mate, get em sent down. In all honesty, Oddjob is closer to you than I am (ha!) but happy to help if you get stuck. I like doing carbsd and have all the ugubbons here for refurbs and or cleaning and set up.
Where do we place our orders then Roo? 24 hour turn round too I hope!
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I was under the impression that there was a Moulton around Shepton Mallet, must have been mistaken.
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There might be Ken, in fact ther eprobably is.
However, ther eis a small village down the lane from us called, get this,........Nebnet Thrubwell!
What a beauty ;D ;D ;D
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Sounds like they just pulled letters out of a Scrabble set and called it that.
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There are a couple of Moultons, Im in south Lincs, not to far from Julie and Trigger, which came in handy.
Couple of questions, can I get a recommendation for a battery, and does the breather pipe go from the top cover to the air intake chamber. If it does I think I ve got the wrong one.
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By breather pipe I presume you mean engine breather pipe. If it's a 500 it goes from skull cap on top of camcover to the area around the main stand pivot and vents to air. If it's a 550 then it's supposed to go to the airbox but again it's better vented to air.
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If its a breather for a battery........no! ;)
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Battery recommendation:- https://www.tayna.co.uk/motorcycle-batteries/varta/514-012-014/ this supplier is really good at usually competitive cost, need to check type as I've just pulled this one up from memory.
They do these "wet" or varta gell type, both seem to be very good. Also I use only these in cars to with very good service life and performance if you've any need.
Excellent supplier, I've no affiliation just perfect service.
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I'd get an AGM type Gary, no breather pipe taking paint off. The Motobatt MB12U looks ok.
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Cheers guys.
The breather I referred to is from the top of the engine, if it vents to air I can use what Ive got.
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Try and see if you can vent the pipe so it goes onto the drive chain, any oily mist coming out of there aids in chain lubrication.
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E bay 12 aa powerline, i had one stand on the bike for 12 months and it still started it on the button
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Any further progress?
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Sadly very little apart from sorting carbs.
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I think the time has come to call it quits. It was never meant to be a showroom finish, and it certainly isnt but Im happy with it.
I will think about what to do with it now, but I need another project just to keep busy so it will probably be sold.
Id like to get a manky old 550 next to make into something like Julie and Triggers "mongrels". I had thought about using the 500 but really its a bit too good to cut up.
Anyway, this is it with just some minor tweaking to do.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3][attachimg=4]
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I’m speechless. That is a thing of beauty…absolutely immaculate. You need to be very proud of that particular journey. Well done mate.
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Thanks, but I have to say the photos do "flatter" it.
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Nothing wrong with that Gary, just needs a rotor casing cover to finish it off.
Is the left hand headlight mount bent or is it just a reflection? Not a criticism just curious.
What now? Sell it on?
Oh BTW, the side stand isn't the right one, not sure if you knew that but that would probably ground on left handers quite easily, I could easily ground the correct one and that sat far higher.
Nice job though, came out well.
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I also remember your starting point….it’s a triumph(Honda).
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Well done Gary, that has come out really, really well.
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I hope the PO is looking down on this and praising you. Genuinely, it’s a credit to you.
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PM'd ;)
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Thanks all.
Jeez oddjob I forgot all about that cover. The headlight ears are not perfect, but no it isnt bent.
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That looks brilliant Gary I'll be chuffed if mine is 50% of that - and done in a timely fashion.
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Your being hard on your self Gary, that’s a cracking looking job! Nice bike.
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Congrats Gary. Beautiful transformation - you should be proud
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I am very impressed on how quick you did that Gary for a first timer ;D
Just looked back through the forum project board and there are too many projects that members have been on for over 3 years :o
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Excellent - you should be proud of yourself
Looks lovely :)
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Well done Gary, lovely job and a credit to your hard work. I'm not a fan of brown paint BUT.....when combined with the black panel on the tank it looks perfect. Excellent job, congratulations.
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Well done Gary, lovely job and a credit to your hard work. I'm not a fan of brown paint BUT.....when combined with the black panel on the tank it looks perfect. Excellent job, congratulations.
My 500 is a similar brownish colour (except faded & scratched) I have to say it is a colour of it's time - everyone was buying cars in shades of brown in the 1970's.
That said mine will probably end up Black like Simon's another colour associated with earlier decades e.g. Mr Ford's Model T.
PS I've downloaded your pictures as a reference for when I start putting mine together.
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Even if the photos do flatter it, it still looks great. The colour is my favourite. Of course, I now want one!! ::)
Matt
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Congratulations Gary. That's a very nice job. It reminds me of one in the same colour scheme that I used to lust after years ago when I lived down in Cornwall. The bike was sitting in a joiners workshop and covered in sawdust and chippings, looking very sorry for itself. I wanted to rescue it but didn't have the space or the money at the time. ☹
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great job Gary, i hope Lazarus turns out as good. I like the brown colour too.
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Thank you all for the kind words. Regarding "brown" it is a bit of a marmite color but a good friend of mine had one brand new in 1975 ish and I always liked it.
Having said I didnt seek one out, its just what was available at the time I was looking.
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I am very impressed on how quick you did that Gary for a first timer ;D
Just looked back through the forum project board and there are too many projects that members have been on for over 3 years :o
Cheers Trig, couldnt have done it without you, or Julie.
I might darken your doorstep again if all goes to plan. thats if you dont move darn sarf. :)
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Well done Gary, lovely job and a credit to your hard work. I'm not a fan of brown paint BUT.....when combined with the black panel on the tank it looks perfect. Excellent job, congratulations.
My 500 is a similar brownish colour (except faded & scratched) I have to say it is a colour of it's time - everyone was buying cars in shades of brown in the 1970's.
That said mine will probably end up Black like Simon's another colour associated with earlier decades e.g. Mr Ford's Model T.
PS I've downloaded your pictures as a reference for when I start putting mine together.
Yep, its definitely a colour of the 70s. British Leyland bought buckets of it. Nowt wrong with black though, looking forward to seeing yous.
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I am very impressed on how quick you did that Gary for a first timer ;D
Just looked back through the forum project board and there are too many projects that members have been on for over 3 years :o
When you reach a certain decade Graham there is no longer a need for speed, plus as I have discovered once it's finished you need another dam project as it's been so rewarding this restoration mullarky. Considering the costs involved I think pacing yourself to 3 yrs plus is admirable .
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I've been doing mine now for around 3 years, I space it out, a few hours or so every day and maybe a day or even a week when I do nothing. Plus I've got my 1300 to do and now my lads VT1100, I think it's better to take your time and get it right than do it in a rush and regret it later.
This is my last one, it will however be my best one as I'm not cutting corners and I'm going way OTT on making it so it lasts.
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Yes looks really stunning in the pics. Well done! (as they say on strictly) I have really enjoyed reading the large batch of 500/550 threads that seem to have dominated here recently. (James H and a few others excepted).
Scanned back, but probably missed it, is it garnet brown or just similar? I have another spare tank and a few panels and was looking at getting them done in garnet brown, or similar and don't want to spend a fortune. My 500 bought new in 74 was brown, but became metallic blue after about a year.
Should sell well, although I think there is a bit of a downturn at this time of years and other spending priorities.
Phil
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Yeah, it's called Candy Garnet Brown.
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Couple of improvements made. A gear lever that works (thanks oddjob), a new generator cover badge and a new neutral thingy bob. This appeared identical to the old one but has transformed the gear selection so something wasn't right. Also swapped the jubilee clips on the balance pipes for genuine ones which look so much better.
So after much deliberation I have decided to sell it. 5 bikes take up too much room so 2 must go to make room for the next project, hopefully another 500 or 550.
Ive put it on car and classic and and be interested in ANY comments on the price. I thought it was high but friends have told me to go for it. Guess I can always come down and Im not desperate to sell for now. The next week or two will be spent giving a Multisrada some much needed love and anybody who thinks Hondas can be a pain should try working on one of these.
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Oh, fully aware ;D