Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: Mikep328 on October 10, 2023, 09:00:27 AM
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Very annoying! Went to change the oil yesterday for the first time on my watch. Drain plug was very tight - couldn't budge it with a 17mm 3/8" drive socket/ratchet but I finally got it off with a 17mm 1/2" drive. The filter bolt was partially seized to the filter "case" and had been buggered/rounded so no wrench would fit. It was also extremely tight and very difficult to remove. After removing it, I 'adjusted' the hex head with some file work to take an 11mm socket/wrench.
Then, in proceeding with the change, found that the washer that goes between the spring and the filter was missing. I thought maybe it had stuck to the filter or maybe fell on the floor when I disassembled everything but that was not the case, in fact, I could see the imprint of the spring itself in the rubber on the filter. So that was the end of the oil change procedure until I get a washer. I went to the local hardware store but nothing of that size available so I ordered that and a couple of other small parts from DS, including a new filter bolt, which I decided was better than my 'adjusted' filter bolt. I wanted to order a genuine part with the original 12mm hex but they were out of stock so I ordered the (much cheaper) aftermarket with the 17mm hex. Can't really think why a 17mm hex is needed on a fitting that only needs to be tight enough to compress an O ring... ;)
TBH, I wonder about the relief valve on the aftermarket bolt vs the original but since it's just a spring and a plunger, I assume it's perfectly OK. Any conflicting views re that? If so, I'll just put my (now) 11mm bolt back in! :)
The good news is that the old oil looked new and the old filter did not have any scary-looking deposits. I was pleased to see that since the engine had been rebuilt by a shop (previous owner) last year. OTOH, the absence of that filter washer and the buggered hex head on the bolt is somewhat disquieting. I would have thought that a shop doing the engine work would have ensured the washer was present and that a new filter bolt was installed...:(
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I always grease the O ring so it should stay easy to undo,
Don't do it up to tight
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Wonder how many of these washers have been dumped sticking to the filter, quite a common occurrence. Probably overtightened filter bolt and combination of all the heat cycles causes seizing. Sometimes these simple jobs can be very trying!👍
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I agree with John, don't do it too tight, you can always give it an extra nip later if it leaks. I have a spare filter bolt in my toolbox which I kept from years ago so wouldn't have to wait for a replacement if ever it gets stuck. Haven't needed it yet.
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If it's true that confession is good for the soul, then yes, umpteen years ago on a CB750 I soon realised why Mr. Honda had equipped the filter bolt with only a 12mm head!! When I moaned at the supplying dealer about the stupidity of it, he silenced me by saying the the cost of a new bolt was far less than mangled engine cases. Lesson learned. And yes, I'm sure that there must be thousands of waste oil drums that contain that aggravating bloody washer, always carry a few spares nowadays. The common sense example given to me was fitting a spin-on filter to a car engine, and just giving it a final nip by hand to tighten, but invariably it needed a chai/strap wrench to release it on the next oil change. How we love this pastime eh?
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Well...now I'm more confused. I was looking at the shop manual a few minutes ago and on page 19 there is a diagram that shows a "collar" (Item #8) on the oil filter bolt. But the picture of the oil filter assembly in the Honda parts manual does not show a collar There was no collar on mine... is there supposed to be a collar there or not?
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Doing them up....I hold the filter housing and "rock" it back and forth as far as travel on location tab allows, you can tighten gently to then feel the faces just start to touch when compressing the O-ring...then go no further than that, literally only just touching as there's no point in squeezing the ring any further. Always stay dry this way.
I've only two snap on socket (bought years ago for these when tool quality was somewhat poorer design) 12mm and 17mm six sided for oil filter and tappet caps, neither have ever damaged the flanks.
Good results at decent cost currently is "US-Pro" equipment.
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Well...now I'm more confused. I was looking at the shop manual a few minutes ago and on page 19 there is a diagram that shows a "collar" (Item #8) on the oil filter bolt. But the picture of the oil filter assembly in the Honda parts manual does not show a collar There was no collar on mine... is there supposed to be a collar there or not?
The 350/4's have a collar as the oil filter housing is a lot larger. It's not fitted to the 400/4.
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Doing them up....I hold the filter housing and "rock" it back and forth as far as travel on location tab allows, you can tighten gently to then feel the faces just start to touch when compressing the O-ring...then go no further than that, literally only just touching as there's no point in squeezing the ring any further. Always stay dry this way.
I've only two snap on socket (bought years ago for these when tool quality was somewhat poorer design) 12mm and 17mm six sided for oil filter and tappet caps, neither have ever damaged the flanks.
Good results at decent cost currently is "US-Pro" equipment.
They are expensive so I only have one atm but the Snap On Flank drive sockets & ring spanners are brilliant - I believe they have now brought out an even better version based on similar engineering design.
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Thanks, NJ re the collar. I would have thought the service manual, since it's for the 350 and 400 fours, would have noted the difference in the 400 section that shows differences between the two but it doesn't.
New washer was delivered a few minutes ago; new 17mm hex head bolt wasn't so I guess I'll remount the old 12 mm (now 11mm) hex head bolt and keep the new one for a spare when it arrives.
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Don’t know if I mentioned this before but my 750 has a 1” hex head oil filter bolt!!?? WTF?
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Thats been welded on by a po
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You’re probably right Bryan although somebody has mad a good job. I couldn’t see the need for some company manufacturing something this size. But in the US OF A anything goes.
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Having received the "genuine Honda" washer, I can see how the washer is easily missed/lost if you don't know it's supposed to be there. It's black and its outer diameter is about the same size as the rubber gasket on the filter. It would be almost impossible to notice if it sticks to the gasket.
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All sorted today. The 17mm filter bolt arrived so I went ahead and used it rather than the old (now 11mm) bolt. Filled it up with oil (Castrol Power 1 full synthetic 10w40 JASO 2), ran out and got the engine good and warm. Did several WOT accelerations through the first four gears to 10K RPM. Checked for leaks upon return; found none! :)
Bike is essentially now ready for extended use with no further required 'interventions' other than routine maintenance and whatever items I may decide to change/modify. I have a couple in mind...neither would be considered "smart." ;)
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Just thought I'd post this link.
It's a comparison of the relief valve as fitted to the DS bolt compared to the one fitted to the OE bolt.
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,29731.msg286903.html#msg286903.
Might be an idea to strip out the innards of the old bolt before throwing it?
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Interesting re the difference between the pattern part spring and the OEM spring! Of course, the actual relief pressure might be similar due to the compression of the longer, thinner spring vs the shorter, thicker OEM spring. But the OEM spring does look more "right" for the application. ;) Can't think of a good way to actually measure any relief pressure difference between the springs.
Maybe I'll disassemble the filter and put the original bolt back in! I'll ponder about that...
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You could remove the setup inside the copy bolt and replace it with the setup from the OE bolt?