Post by: alexdecker on January 21, 2022, 06:35:43 AM
Ok, så got this CB550F. It had some top end work done, and it runs fine now. The primary chain is loose and needs to be changed, and contemplating doing a major restoration of the engine.
The old lady has 80000 km on her (yes, that was five zeros). Do we have some sort of guideline as to when the engine is not worth working on anymore? When do you just run out the life of the bike, and when do you continue to restore?
- Alex
Post by: haynes66 on January 21, 2022, 07:08:35 AM
Post by: Sesman on January 21, 2022, 08:30:26 AM
The big question is what are you prepared to replace when you are in the motor?
I replaced all bearings, bearing shells, seals, chains, rings and tensioners. My valves, guides, cams and cam bearing surfaces and bores were in fantastic condition and only required lapping and honing. I still spent around £700.
I get the satisfaction, but the next owner gets the benefit.
So I guess the answer is run it, but don’t break it.
Post by: Johnwebley on January 21, 2022, 09:25:41 AM
Nothing for these motors,
Mine is into the 70k,and running sweetly
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
Post by: Sesman on January 21, 2022, 10:08:19 AM
Alex tells us his cam chain is cooked and I’ve read many reports,on this forum of primary drive chains been goosed at 30k and eating into oil galleries?
I wouldn’t know as I’m not expert, but can only report on my engine strip at 17k. Miles. I’d say there was nothing seriously wrong, but the cam chain was deffo at the end of adjustment and the primary drive around 70% worn.
Again, maintenance is the key issue…oil, balance and adjustment. Use, but don’t abuse.
Post by: alexdecker on January 21, 2022, 10:21:04 AM
So I basically asked to make sure that I don't spend my time on a fools errand by taking it apart. I have no idea if anybody has ever been in the bottom end before, or how it looks. I fixed the top end, and both cylinders and pistons were in okay condition for some more milage, but with the slack I saw in the primary chain, I am not sure it has been taken apart. There is no rattle to an extent that I think the chain is digging into the oil gallery. I have a video if the bike idling here - maybe you guys can hear something I can't?
https://youtu.be/3XW8BiG1dDk
- Alex
Post by: Oddjob on January 21, 2022, 10:24:18 AM
The one I'm doing now has 147000+ miles on it, my K reg was at 268000 last time I rode it, BIL is still riding it about after doing a restoration last year. If I was still young I'd be trying for 7 figures but we don't have the weather at my age to do it.
Post by: alexdecker on January 21, 2022, 02:06:35 PM
Post by: Bryanj on January 21, 2022, 03:03:26 PM
Cam chain £30
Cam chain tens blade £35
Cam chain tens cushion £30
Gasket kit £70
Seal kit £30
I would be surprised if you needed shells or bearings at all and the 550 has more clearance between primary chain and oil gallery than 500 so does not need as frequent replacement.
Its when you need shells and transmission bearings it gets uber expensive
Post by: Sesman on January 21, 2022, 03:11:27 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 21, 2022, 03:13:59 PM
Post by: Bryanj on January 21, 2022, 04:48:05 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 21, 2022, 07:32:38 PM
Post by: alexdecker on January 22, 2022, 08:05:33 AM
Primary Chain
Cam chain
Cam chain tensioner blade
Cam chain tensioner cushion
Gasket Kit
Seal Kit
Primary Drive Cushion Rubbers
Non Pattern Tensioner
Bearing Guard
Don't know about the last to items though - bearing guard for where? And never heard about non pattern tensioner. Is that the cam chain tensioner, or?
- Alex
Post by: Sesman on January 22, 2022, 08:44:19 AM
Don’t underestimate the accumulative cost of hondabond, assembly lube, paint, paint prep such as sodablast and other decorative and service items.
Post by: Sesman on January 22, 2022, 08:55:35 AM
There are of cause lots of risks to consider too…….
Good luck with the build.
Post by: Bryanj on January 22, 2022, 02:44:25 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 22, 2022, 05:18:34 PM
Post by: alexdecker on January 23, 2022, 12:13:51 PM
Also, when the engine is taken apart - what are some good tips for cleaning out the cogs and innards, and also the case, both inside and outside? I don't want to vaporblast it I think - I don't mind the worn look too much. But I would like to clean stuff up as good as I can while in there.
- Alex
Post by: alexdecker on January 23, 2022, 01:13:13 PM
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550f2-super-sport-550-four-1977-european-direct-sales_model17122/rubber_23114323000/
Post by: Bryanj on January 23, 2022, 01:46:40 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 23, 2022, 01:51:24 PM
Ok, so when I get in there, assuming I don't need new bearings for cam shaft or transmission, do I just let them sit in there when cleaning the engine up, and then regrets them before assembly? Can I clean the transmission assembly without taking it apart?
Also, when the engine is taken apart - what are some good tips for cleaning out the cogs and innards, and also the case, both inside and outside? I don't want to vaporblast it I think - I don't mind the worn look too much. But I would like to clean stuff up as good as I can while in there.
Lifting out the gear shaft on my 400 was easy again how far you want to go in stripping down a gear cluster is down to what you find once inside. I found petrol was very effective but did use Evaporust to remove some surface rust on some internals.
I took lots of photos to help with re-assembly - my only regret is I did not do more written notes alongside the pics as I did forget quite a lot of stuff. For the 400 there are some good U-Tube videos that I used as a sort of revision lecture - when I was confused I asked questions on this site.
- Alex
Out of interest when I did my rebuild I did not do any soda blasting. On the outside I washed with petrol using a paint brush, then paint stripper with some fine Wet & Dry paper to remove the darker oxidation being careful to not go onto any contact surfaces. I used Petrol to remove oil film stains stains on the inside of the casings with some more stubborn staining being removed with either brake cleaner or nail varnish remover. I did paint the exterior casing parts rather than polishing as per original Honda.
Post by: alexdecker on January 23, 2022, 02:00:39 PM
Ok, so when I get in there, assuming I don't need new bearings for cam shaft or transmission, do I just let them sit in there when cleaning the engine up, and then regrets them before assembly? Can I clean the transmission assembly without taking it apart?
Also, when the engine is taken apart - what are some good tips for cleaning out the cogs and innards, and also the case, both inside and outside? I don't want to vaporblast it I think - I don't mind the worn look too much. But I would like to clean stuff up as good as I can while in there.
Lifting out the gear shaft on my 400 was easy again how far you want to go in stripping down a gear cluster is down to what you find once inside. I found petrol was very effective but did use Evaporust to remove some surface rust on some internals.
I took lots of photos to help with re-assembly - my only regret is I did not do more written notes alongside the pics as I did forget quite a lot of stuff. For the 400 there are some good U-Tube videos that I used as a sort of revision lecture - when I was confused I asked questions on this site.
- Alex
Out of interest when I did my rebuild I did not do any soda blasting. On the outside I washed with petrol using a paint brush, then paint stripper with some fine Wet & Dry paper to remove the darker oxidation being careful to not go onto any contact surfaces. I used Petrol to remove oil film stains stains on the inside of the casings with some more stubborn staining being removed with either brake cleaner or nail varnish remover. I did paint the exterior casing parts rather than polishing as per original Honda.
Ah, thank you for this. So you cleaning up the inside with petrol as well? Did you tape over ball bearings and such, or did you have the engine stripped down completely? Obviously petrol will evaporate, so there shouldn't be any reason to worry about petrol getting into small crannies and nooks on the inside of the case, eh?
Post by: Bryanj on January 23, 2022, 04:42:08 PM
Post by: Oddjob on January 23, 2022, 05:14:00 PM
Post by: alexdecker on January 23, 2022, 06:56:52 PM
And when removing the gearbox ensure the end gears and roller don't fall off the shaft.
Interested in as to why?
Also, because I kinda don't wanna buy new bearings if I can avoid it, but also don't have a slide hammer, are there any alternatives in cleaning the engine, where I can leave the bearings be?
Post by: Bryanj on January 23, 2022, 07:11:01 PM
Post by: Oddjob on January 23, 2022, 09:06:30 PM
If your not prepared for the gears falling off it's easy for it to catch you unawares, one of the needle roller bearings has the bearing loose inside, the other uses a cage to hold them, if the loose bearing falls off it's a bitch to find them all. Also easy to misplace some of the thrust washers that fall off at the same time.
Post by: alexdecker on January 24, 2022, 06:36:30 AM
You don't need a slide hammer, to remove the primary shaft leave a footrest on the footrest hanger bolt and use that to screw into the end of the primary shaft, using the footrest you can get the primary shaft out easily.
If your not prepared for the gears falling off it's easy for it to catch you unawares, one of the needle roller bearings has the bearing loose inside, the other uses a cage to hold them, if the loose bearing falls off it's a bitch to find them all. Also easy to misplace some of the thrust washers that fall off at the same time.
Thank you, that foot peg tip is quite a useful hack :) I've noticed people taking these engines apart, usually use a slide hammer to get these bearings off (outlined in red on attached picture). Is there an alternative way of getting them out, or am I getting a slide hammer? I can't really picture how the foot peg trick will get the whole thing out actually. Do I just pull really hard and hope it isn't stuck? Also, will I damage these bearing getting them out either way, or is there a way to get them out without ruining them? Is there any other bearings that will pose me any problems?
[attach=1]
And last one - I see a lot of cir clips in the bottom end. Can I reuse them, or is it best to replace them with new ones when taking the engine back together again?
Post by: Sesman on January 24, 2022, 07:53:45 AM
Of course, there is no substitute for the correct tools….or is there. ;D
Post by: Bryanj on January 24, 2022, 10:28:22 AM
Post by: Oddjob on January 24, 2022, 01:31:52 PM
The other bearing will stay in the case, remove the oil pump and you can see a section of it, a wooden or brass drift and you can knock it out of the case quite easily.
I've reused circlips but it depends on how they come off IMO, it's best to replace them though, especially if you remove the kick starter shaft one. The gearbox ones are special having a flat side on one side so buy genuine ones for those if replacing. Unless the gearbox bearings or gears don't show wear or damage leave the box alone. Check the gear selector forks tips though which are on the gear selector drum.
It's not as hard as it looks or sounds, get stuck, ask for help.
Where is your location as a member may be near to help you out.
Post by: Sesman on January 24, 2022, 02:31:41 PM