Honda-SOHC
Other Stuff => Member 4 Sales => Topic started by: Oddjob on February 12, 2022, 05:49:33 PM
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As per my other thread I have since found that the GSXR-750 camchain fits the CB500/550, not sure about the 400 (does the 400 use a DID 219T chain?) the chain is a DID (original Honda chain supplier) 219FTH, however there appears to be a lack of 88 link chains in the 219FTH range. I have sourced some 94 link chains and rivet links for the 500/550 and an exceptionally good camchain splitter/rivetter which gives results identical to the factory, there are pics on the other thread of the results.
I am seeing if there is any demand for these types of chains, they can stand greater load (ideal for big bore conversions) and have a greater tensile strength, they are also flat sided so not only are they kinder to the tensioner blade but they will be quieter in operation as well. I'd imagine they'll last longer due to the stronger construction.
I can order a few chains and cut them down to 88 links, post them onward for a price of £35 inc P&P. This could be subject to a change, depends on postal rates but it's a good ballpark figure.
I'll make a small profit, the cutting and riveting is a time consuming job and the special tool to do this was expensive so the profit will cover the costs of buying that. Hopefully I'll break even after some time.
I need 10 committed to buying, I have 2 already, another 8 and I'll move on it.
Let me know either here or via PM.
Hope this is ok Steve, once I break even and if demand is still there I'll donate a sum of each sale to the forum.
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I have been selling these chains for years to members Ken :-*
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Yes Julie, for the 750 not the 500. Plus are yours's joined?, as most people would be scared of riveting a camchain, with the right tool it's quite easy but then the tools bloody expensive but you do need it to get a good result.
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Yes Julie, for the 750 not the 500. Plus are yours's joined?, as most people would be sacred of riveting a camchain, with the right tool it's quite easy but then the tools bloody expensive but you do need it to get a good result.
I advertise them for all the models Ken and I send them to the customer with the rivet link on the 400/500/550. Most of my customers are happy to cut and join the chains themselves. Cutting and joining is not something we would do for a customer because if there were ever to be a failure, the liability would come back to me and that's a risk I'm not prepared to take. We also never fit joined chains to our own or customers engines.
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All chains are joined Julie, that's why they are called chains. I do seem to recall Graham saying he'd joined camchains before, Yamaha require it for certain engines, XS750 comes to mind. If the chain is well joined there is no more risk than a factory one, they break all the time, it's the abuse they get not the way they are manufactured that causes problems. The other thing is, if it was so inherently weak why would DID supply rivet links? The tool I'm using joins the links as well as the factory, you can see by the pics it's identical, they may use a mechanical machine to rivet the links but the way it's done is essentially the same.
I have 4 members who have expressed an interest. Let's see if we can get to 10 before next week. :)
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Yes, Graham has joined them in the past and has the correct tool to do it. But, it's not Graham that sells the chains, it's me. You'll easily get up to 10 orders Ken. I've sold 11 cam chains already this month, 5 of them supplied with split links, so the market is there and the other 6 for 750's
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450 and 500 twins have to have rivet links to assemble the motor and Honda did a splitter/riveter tool in the dealers kit
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So the same chain fits the 400 four as well, wonder how many links that needs? I could easily look it up but I’m currently bed bound, foot has decided to swell up so badly I can’t get down the stairs, damned disease is really kicking in today.
The chain riveter I’m using btw does not rely on a hammer, it uses mechanical pressure to peen the edges over and because of the way the Germans designed it, it gives consistent results every time. The 219fth rivet link is very difficult to assemble without a special tool, just getting the plate onto the pins requires considerable force, I’d hate to have to try this without the tool, trying to get it on with just pliers would be extremely hard. I’m wondering how those buyers ever got a decent result unless they have a decent riveter themselves, lots of swearing was involved, I can guarantee that.
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Sorry to hear about your foot Ken. You seem to me going through the wars lately. Chin up…..
Your 400F question is a teaser. Is it 82 or 92🤔
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I have seen 62, 82 and 88 listed as sizes, have to count one im afraid and i aint got one
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It’s 82 according to the web, parts book may confirm it.
I could easily cut one to that length so anyone doing a big bore mod on the 400 could use a heavy duty chain. Might even be kinder to the camchain tensioner setup
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Checked on CMS mate and it only gives a part number, the 499 is the one with BIG pics followed by pages of numbers
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Chain from my 400. 82.
[attach=1]
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Whose make of chain is that Deano, it’s not the standard figure 8 one.
Counted the links on pics of 14401-333-003 and there are 82. There’s one on eBay though and it only has 54 but the bits with it don’t look like 400-4 parts to me.
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Hi Ken,
DID 219FTS. Was in a 1978 400/4.
This is a 1975 400/4 I have on the bench at the moment.
[attach=1]
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Definitely worth getting them riveted as you've done there Ken as it's the primary fail point if done incorrectly. If someone doesn't have facility to do that, then this offer is very worthwhile.
The plates don't usually fail on chains generally, nearly always a link starts to get loose and release one side to give fail. Pulling tensile load on steel samples like the side plate section, even the std one would probably exceed six tons before getting anywhere near stretching at all, with the straight plates possibly exceeding those. Dealing with the most obvious link with technically correct setting is highly desirable.
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This is my genuine Honda hand tool for camchains .. I think it was introduced for the Black Bomber CB450
Not used it yet as I had to get a new set of NOS anvils from the States for it (not fitted yet).
Anyone have any experience of using one back in the day?
[attachimg=1]
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Very useful tool Ash. Good for std DID and OEM Honda chains but, no good on FTH chains as the link pin is a different size. The FST on a std T chain is 160. The upgraded FTH chain is 220 ;)
I remember when the FTH chain first cam out and someone was advertising them for Kwaka Z900's. Many people distroyed there engines as, the cam chain tunnel is too small for this chain.
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I think the tool was actually introduced in the mid 70's for the CB500T looking at this bulletin ;)
[attachimg=1]
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There was a bigger tool on the wall at Mead and Tomkinson where i worked, genuine Honda as it matched the shadow board but it screwed down a knife edged "blade" that met the cetre of both pins at once and splayed them out, also had a pin attachmet for pushing pin out
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Is that chain you are talking about like the chain on the left in this pic Ken? (i.e the -971 part) . I intend fitting one to one of my CB250K0's Basically because I have run out of the standard 'dog-bone' part (fts CB250/350K/CB750 SOHC).
[attachimg=1]
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Yeah, looks like it Ash, it's flat sided not dogbone ;D
As for the genuine Honda tool, nope, never used that tool, I can't ever remember a 500T coming into the workshop TBH, I do remember MOTing one and failing it, the owner came back and once he found out it had failed and the amount needed to get it safe again he sold it to me for £50, I scrapped it and used what parts I could on the 500/550s, the rest got sold on.
The problem with camchains Nigel is that it's a chicken and egg thing, if the engine drops a valve for instance it will usually break a bunch of stuff, the sudden shock usually breaks the camchain and when you take it apart your left wondering what caused this, did the chain break and that's why the valve is bent etc, it's far easier to blame the chain when in fact it could be something else entirely. The tool I'm using is a KTM factory tool, it's really well designed, it's impossible to push the plate onto the rivet link too far as it has a shaped chamber for the plate to sit in, as it goes on the pins protrude until they hit the back of this chamber and then the tool locks up. Same with the peening process, it will go so far and then locks. It's simple to use but your paying for all those design features, at over £75 it's not a cheap tool to buy, especially as your probably only going to use it once.
My thought behind offering this service is so that members can benefit from fitting a heavier duty chain, it may prolong the life of the tensioner blade, it may prolong the intervals between having to fit a new chain and it avoids having members buy a tool that they are only going to use once. That's it, no other motive. I make a small profit, that will go toward paying for the tool, once I break even I will donate a sum for each chain to the site or maybe buy another tool in case this one breaks, who knows, if I sell enough I may be able to keep the site going without members having to pay once a year.
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And that my friend is a noble gesture indeed.👏
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Hopefully you'll get enough interest as that certainly makes a nice job of riveting.
Russ Collins used to use the straight plate chains in his builds too, for 750 motors.
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Well folks it appears these 219FTH chains are suitable for the 400-4 so if your after a heavy duty 82 link chain let me know. I'll be happy to cut one down for you.
In the end all sales will help to go toward keeping the site open, it's to all of our benefit to do this, all I'm doing is offering my labour free of charge, I'm not charging for splitting and joining the chain, just for the cost of the tool, the postage and other expenses.
I have 5 confirmed buyers up to now, I'll order the chains when I have 10.
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Hopefully you'll get enough interest as that certainly makes a nice job of riveting.
Russ Collins used to use the straight plate chains in his builds too, for 750 motors.
I think the Genuine Honda CR750 / CYB350 racing camchain (straight plate) with the -971 suffix was made by RK (will check when I dig one out to use on one of my engines)
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I have ordered the chains, I don't have 10 yet but it's close and the supplier has to order that many in as he only has 2 on the shelf. I'm not making as much as I thought and even that might be less than that if postage onward is more than expected, I've allowed £4 to post on but it may be a bit more. Regardless of that I'll still keep the price the same, I'll need to sell more than 10 to break even but TBH it's not important, if I break even I do, if I don't hey that's not a problem either.
Anyone wants one, please PM me and please say what engine it's for so I know how many links the chain needs to be.
BTW, the chains are 94 links long, which is the size required I think for the CB750K, if you want to buy one for that let me know, same price, you can actually find them cheaper on Ebay BUT this way supports the forum or will do eventually.
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Thinking on, the CB750 doesn't need a rivet link as it's already joined by the factory so price reduced on that to £33. That's about 11p more than Ebay cheapest but Ebay doesn't support the forum :)
I have now got the chains, I'll do them tomorrow and let those who've expressed an interest know by Monday.
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Will be cutting chains today, can I ask that PayPal payments are sent as family and friends, the charge incurred if not sort of kill the little I make. Almost £2 for £35.
I'll advise when they are ready to send.
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All chains are done. Still got 3 left if anyone still wants one.
The odd thing here is that the chains have already been soft linked, there is just one plate with the DID markings on it, 219FTH on one side and DID on the other, sometimes they got the DID plate in reverse so the writing was on the inside.
Everything went fine, no problems, made a board so that when I spilt the chain I hung it off a nail in the board and the links were marked down the board so no counting needed. A lot of times I took the chain out of the tool, lifted it up to inspect the link to see how it had peened and looked at the wrong link, it was only when I looked at the other side of the link I'd spot this, the tool does an excellent job of riveting them together, I'd say you wouldn't be able to spot it without the markings on the soft link, I reversed all the DID marks so they were inside just to see if I could spot the new link, I couldn't.
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Great job, Ken.
I’m sure somebody will be along shortly to buy those other chains.
Looking forward to receiving mine.
👍👏
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2 left now.
Yours was posted this morning Phil, had to send the speedo drive in a separate jiffy, it wouldn't fit in the jiffy with the chain. Postage weight is 8.95 oz which is less than I expected.
On the side opposite the 219FTH mark try and see if you can spot the new soft link Phil, don't cheat and just turn it over and say yeah there it is, turn it a bit and see if it stands out. I'm betting you won't be able to spot it. Unless you got the only chain where I made a mistake and put the DID marking on the outside, makes no difference which way round it goes, I just wanted to make it hard to spot.
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Hi, Ken.
Cam chain has arrived…many thanks.
I’ve got to hand it to you, I had quite a difficult time trying to find the rivet link. The tool you have does a very good ‘factory’ job. And thanks again for the Speedo drive- perfect.
Cheers
Phil
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Just got one left now.
Anyone interested?
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PM sent.
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All sold, if anyone else wants one and there is a demand for them I'll buy another 10 and start again. PM me if interested. Once I get say 5 I'll order them.
Maybe we can moves this to sales Steve?
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Looks like a normal chain Deano, the 219FTS has full side plates not figure 8 ones like the pic.
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Just ordered 10 more chains as 1 went missing in transit and I need to replace that. I've have a couple of chains pre-ordered but there are still a few available for those interested.
Also, word of warning. My supplier has warned me that the price has gone up, he's kept to the old price for this order but after this I expect to pay around £5 more per chain, which is a hefty rise. So these will be the last I can do at £35 delivered, after these IF I order anymore they'll be £40 delivered. That is unless you want one for the 750K in which case it's £2 less as no rivet link needed.
So £33 for a heavy duty 219FTH Camchain for the CB750K
£35 for a CB400 (probably 350 if it uses the same chain), CB500K, CB550K, CB550F delivered within the UK of course.
Should have the new chains by late next week, so around 07-04-22.
PM me if interested. After 5 of these are sold I'll have broke even for the expense of the special tool required to join these chains, it would have been earlier except for the loss of the missing chain. If all 10 are sold I'll donate £20 to the forum to cover the costs of running it. If another 10 are ordered and sold this will increase to £40 for each 10 sold.
So buy a chain and you're donating to the cost of running this great forum.
The cost of these chains on Ebay are approx the same as mine or more expensive EXCEPT you cannot buy a 82 link 219FTH chain for a 400 or an 88 link 219FTH chain for a CB500/550, the only thing you can do is buy a longer chain and a rivet link and try to join the chain yourself. Most people don't want that effort or risk. Mine are joined using a genuine DID 219FTH rivet link and a factory chain riveter which gives results you'd be very hard pressed (pun) to spot from a factory result.
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The FTH219 chains on ebay are cheaper to members on this forum as, i do not have to pay the ebay charges and pass them on to the members. That goes for all parts that Nurse Julie sells on ebay ;)
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Still available if anyone wants one.
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Still have some of these left, these will be the last I most likely will do as my supplier has been bought out and will now only sell to the trade, plus the cost of these chains has increased markedly.
However as I've already bought them at the old price I don't intend to do a DS and charge more for a part I've had some time now. Robin Hood he ain't.
Still the same price, £35 delivered for a 400, 500 and 550 and £33 for a 750.
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Managed to find 10 new chains in Germany, they are not 94 links anymore, just 90, which means that I'll use those for the 400 and 500/550 chains and keep the 94 link chains for anyone with a 750 as they are the correct length. So still £35 for 400/500/550 chain including P&P and £33 for a 750 chain due to it not needing a new rivet link. Around £40 on Ebay for a 94L one.
So still available if you want one. Remember this is for a closed chain, ready cut to the length required for your engine NOT a chain you need to cut and rivet yourself as sold on Ebay. The chains are cut using a special factory tool and the re-riveted using a new DID rivet link and the same special factory tool, the result is such that it's almost impossible to spot where it's been joined as members who have bought one can testify.
The advantage of these over the standard DID 219 camchain is they are quieter in operation, do less damage to the tensioner blades as the side plates are not the original figure 8 shape but a flat sided plate, they are also significantly stronger than the OE chain and thus will last longer and stretch less meaning less adjustments needed.
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New chains arrived today, could only get 6 rivet links for 10 chains but I have some spare anyway so should be ok if anyone wants one.
3 already sold, just need to cut them down.
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Haven't got that many left now and these will be my last at £35 due to the rise in buying them in the first place.