Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 19, 2023, 12:54:31 PM
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I've just assembled the kick start parts in the lower casing - pretty sure I have all the springs & washers in the right order on the inside section - the shaft seems to have plenty of fore & aft movement. With the outer return spring in place there is no tension as such is this right?
Clearly worth getting it right before the casing go together as doing it via the sump would need the dexterity of a Gynaecologist.
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52909120781_e99d4b8bf2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oBp5hn)500 kick start (https://flic.kr/p/2oBp5hn) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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Assembly looks fine Ted, have you tried putting shaft spring tine 180 deg round?
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Assembly looks fine Ted, have you tried putting shaft spring tine 180 deg round?
I have not managed 180 degrees as that is a heck of a lot of tension - rotating the outer return spring some 60 degrees or so clockwise makes the inner pawl gear disengage.
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Most important you use a new circlip on that assembly Ted or they tend to fail not long after starting the engine.
I'm not sure that's right Ted, the gears IIRC should be disengaged, it's when the kickstart lever is moved downwards that the pressure forces the 2 parts together and that allows the bronze looking gear to move the gearbox thus moving the engine, it's supposed to spin free otherwise.
Been a while since I did one of these but that ramp on the inner gear is meant to engage with something but can't remember what now without one in my hands.
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Most important you use a new circlip on that assembly Ted or they tend to fail not long after starting the engine.
I'm not sure that's right Ted, the gears IIRC should be disengaged, it's when the kickstart lever is moved downwards that the pressure forces the 2 parts together and that allows the bronze looking gear to move the gearbox thus moving the engine, it's supposed to spin free otherwise.
Been a while since I did one of these but that ramp on the inner gear is meant to engage with something but can't remember what now without one in my hands.
Do you mean the inner smaller circlip or the one on the outer part of the shaft should be replaced Ken.
The photo I have taken of the inner section looks the same as the photo I took before dismantling as the pawl was engaged. It does not look or feel right to me - the steel end section that slots into the bottom of the casing has a complicated section that acts as a stop - the ramped casting on the inner pawl looks as though it should fit into it.
I will take it apart again & post the pictures of the section that I am talking about.
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The one right on the end of the shaft Ted, they get stretched removing them and then reused and then they just fall into the sump and you get people asking "Why does my kickstart no longer work".
The ramp does interact with the steel section Ted, I seem to recall it's held away from the gear until the shaft starts to rotate when it then gets released and engages with the gear.
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I've looked at one of my kickstarts and the ramp engages with a small ramp on the metal guide plate, the thick gear is called the kickstart ratchet and the bronze gear is called the pinion, so ratchet and pinion from now on to avoid confusion.
The ratchet engages with the guide plate and is held away from the pinion when at rest, to aid this a small spring is fitted under the ratchet to force it off the pinion and another more powerful one on the outside forces it to engage with the pinion when the ramp disengages with the guide plate. As the kickstart shaft moves anti clockwise, when your using the kickstart, this moves the entire shaft anti clockwise, this disengages the ramp from the guide plate, the outer spring now forces the ratchet to engage with the pinion and this then turns the gearbox which in turn turns the engine over. The large strong spring fitted to the outside of the crankcase then forces the kickstart shaft back clockwise when the kickstart is let go and that forces the ramp on the ratchet up the ramp on the guide plate and pulls the ratchet away from the pinion, the inner spring aids this and helps keep it away from engaging when vibrating.
The ratchet is made so it slides on the shaft with really only 2 positions it can go, it has to move with the shaft as the shaft spins, this means the positioning of the ratchet is critical to ensure the ramps engage when the kickstart is at the rest position. Yours looks not to be. If you remove the ratchet and spin it into the other position I think that will make the 2 ramps meet. IIRC the kickstart itself has a large flat spot where the spring engages and this rests against part of the crankcase as it's resting position. So you fit the shaft in place, spin it to get that flat part to the correct position, engage the spring and then assemble the inside part. If you remove the circlip don't forget to fit a new one, 12mm ID external circlips are dirt cheap on Ebay, around £3.50 for 10.
I honestly can't remember ever doing this and finding it hard but saying that the kickstart shaft was hardly ever removed unless it had a fault or you were blasting the casings, most were just left in place.
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Forgot to mention Ted, DON'T forget to fit the external washer on the end of the kickstart shaft before fitting the clutch case. It's 18mm ID and around 2mm thick IIRC.
Don't fit it now or it will fall off before you fit the clutch case, I always keep it with the clutch and clutch case to remind me to fit it before I fit the casing.
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I can see your logic Ken I have spent over 3/4 of an hour trying to get it fit as it should but I am struggling atm - its a pain as when I get the ramp just right the end will not fit into it's location box in the lower crank case.
When I get the long part into the location case it comes out of the ramp. grrrr
I have taken a picture of the parts & with the ramp in place - I have been misled by the photo I took before I removed the kick start shaft. See below - it needs to be like that but with the ratchet part held open by the spring.
I'm going to leave it for now as its tea time - I will look at it afresh over the weekend.
First picture is before I dismantled last year - looks as though the ramp was already disengaged.
'(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52910062720_44def8590e_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oBtUhG)3rd Oct 2022 (https://flic.kr/p/2oBtUhG) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52909098042_0b2876dbd5_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oBoXwj)kick start parts in order (https://flic.kr/p/2oBoXwj) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52910063560_1d4172419b_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oBtUxb)ramp effect (https://flic.kr/p/2oBtUxb) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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It's possible Ted that you took the pic when the external spring was disengaged, this would allow the shaft to rotate and when that happens the ramps disengage as well.
Plus when you took the pic of it dismantled the order was already wrong, the special washer with the cutouts goes on before the large spring, not the other way around.
Try fitting it without the external spring engaged, so you can spin the shaft a little.
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Yes Ken I think you are right that the external big return spring was off allowing the shaft to rotate.
The specially shaped washer - that should be against the gear then the spring then the ratchet boss - that will make it easier as the washer tends to rotate & stop the ratchet boss with the ramp fitting easily.
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The one right on the end of the shaft Ted, they get stretched removing them and then reused and then they just fall into the sump and you get people asking "Why does my kickstart no longer work".
This feels very familiar......was planning on removing sump this weekend so will check this is the case.
Hope I can add "lessons learnt" to this thread Ted
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Ted I found this free video pretty good on kickstart.
https://youtu.be/QONAeh_XhUE
I like seeing a live build so you can gets lots of views of the parts going together. He does eventually make a mess of things by not purtting the starter on the primary chain before bolting up but otherwise seems to know what he’s doing.
I also thought it was worth spending 30 quid on this other guy which I have found useful so far but in the end the gurus on here are the most reliable source of knowkedge
https://youtu.be/429FEdOQxgw
Hope this helps
Cheers
David
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Not a bad vid Dave, I'd be wary of trusting someone who puts it together wrong in the first place though, the outside thrust washer he puts behind the circlip first. Not a great recommendation for his level of skills.
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Thanks David & Ken - after having my tea & poured myself a beer I watched the video - tried again with the odd cut out washer in the right place FTF.
I will sort out a new circlip - for now it's as it should be - tried the kick start pedal & bit works as it should.
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52910385863_46e754f137_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oBvym8)done at last (https://flic.kr/p/2oBvym8) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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Always worth asking for a second opinion Ted, especially if you're unsure of how it goes. Consult a parts book regularly in order to get the assembly correct.
Glad to see it's now fitted and more importantly it's fitted right, although you can do the kickstart with the engine assembled and even in place it's not anywhere near as easy as doing it with the cases apart.
Been well over 40 years since I've had to do one of these but as soon as I saw it I thought it didn't look right with the gears engaged, the kickstart engages the gears so it struck me straight away.
Did this last night at a bike meet, spotted a CB250NB Super Dream and walked over to have a chat with the owner, who to his credit said he didn't know the first thing about them, I hadn't worked on one for around 35-40 years but it all just came flooding back, tappet clearances 4 and 6, how to adjust the camchain and more importantly the balance shaft, I spotted quite a few faults with it and told him what they were and how to fix them, listened to the engine and told him what needed adjusting etc. He wanted me to service it for him but he lived too far away for me to want to do that, although if he's there next week I may change my mind, loved working on the 250N and I wouldn't mind having another go to see if I can get it sewing machine quiet.
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Ken, did i tell you of the new 250N i had with oil problems on pdi?
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No, can't say I remember it if you did.
We had a CBX550 where the gearbox retaining pin was missed at the factory and the countershaft came out of the engine at speed.
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On pdi all was perfect till i stood the bike up and oil light came on, honda said change pressure relief but this was later model vertical inside lower case so engine out, still same, fitted earlier oil pump gasket still same.
Rep turned up sais remove engine i will come back tomorrow, stay there i said 30 mins it was on bench. Spent a couple hours checking things then on backfilling gallery with oil noticed seep at oil pump, with pump off the gallery drilling was egg shaped at pump face, did you see that he said, yep from me thought it was to increase area for pump to suck, nope said he should be round, cases must have been moved as drill/endmill comming out.
New top case, then order main shells and rebuild, by this time buyer said stuff it and bought something else so Honda paid 3 stripdown warrantee claims plus parts and extra big discount to Meads as it was now a used bike with restamped cases on showroom floor.
Honda didnt often get it wrong but if they did it was frequently big!
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Good shout about replacing the two circlips Ken, the 12 mm new one was so much tighter fitting than the old one - did the 18 mm one as well.