Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 17, 2023, 12:17:02 PM
So I had a look at them more closely - I noticed that the cable quadrant looked wonky. Closer inspection revealed that out of the six rivets that hold the two halves together only two look to have been peened in place. Two on one side & none on the other.
I was hoping to just check the bowls for old fuel and use them without dismantling them. Plan B again......
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53193229971_b563b14e6c_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p3vd3F)500 carbs 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2p3vd3F) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53193596198_c6839542ce_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p3x5UW)500 carbs 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2p3x5UW) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
Post by: Skoti on September 17, 2023, 01:23:16 PM
Would have probably cost about 15 pence to renew.
If that was Gerben then failure to have changed that screw IMHO sows doubt on the general quality of the work done.
I see the fuel hose is not genuine Honda either, so good luck with that regarding ethanol proof.
Anyhow, I hope all goes well for you.
regards
Skoti
Post by: Oddjob on September 17, 2023, 01:50:23 PM
On carbs the attention should be in the details, the zinc plating isn't very good on those, I've seen butterflies really distorted and out of line with the cables, however the riveting isn't down to Gerben, if it's bad that down to Honda. Looking at the linkage bar it looks to me to have not been removed as the retaining pin doesn't look to have been drilled out BUT I could be wrong as he's done that and fitted another, I use screw in ones, if he done that he's used a plain rivet which IMO isn't a great idea. If he didn't remove the pin he's clearly just tidied up the linkage bar and not done a great job of that either. I had 3 of mine hard chromed, it's not cheap to have done these days, about £65 or so IIRC. However that does fix the problem permanently.
Looks like you need to have the cable clamp straightened and also check the butterfly isn't bent as well.
I did these for another member earlier this year. I opted for bright zinc plating with blue passivate rather than gold. Roo did the plating as my kit wasn't set up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdZhyk2Y/IMG-3165.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xkXT4vNc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4H5tpL8/IMG-3162.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zbnNs0zX)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFy5JcRp/IMG-3163.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tnjqJ8Sx)
(https://i.postimg.cc/28QBPCPK/IMG-3166.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kB54SPMQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDsvpNMq/IMG-3164.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VSKZdtKB)
I even polished up the brass in the float bowls, might as well do a good job whilst you're in there :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgS62DLR/IMG-3161.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kVSD5NJL)
The Honda piping isn't ethanol resistant Skoti, it might be now but the older stuff isn't. Common practice is to replace with Viton Orings inside and Nitrile fuel pipe which is ethanol resistant. Like this I used.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 17, 2023, 01:55:10 PM
As I will need to remove the shaft to sort out the rivets I might be minded to dismantle them completely anyway.
Some rusting on carb bowl screws as well where plating has failed.
I did not use the word rubish Ken - just not the quality I expected generally - carb tops & bottoms still have some shine to them.
When you say butterfly do you mean the cable quadrant section?
I've never dismantled that shaft so not sure what the retaining pin you refer to is or where to get a screw in type?
Post by: Skoti on September 17, 2023, 02:27:25 PM
I wasn't saying Gerbens work was rubbish Ted, just that it's not as good as most people make out, they are so surprised at how good they look when they come back they don't look closely.
On carbs the attention should be in the details, the zinc plating isn't very good on those, I've seen butterflies really distorted and out of line with the cables, however the riveting isn't down to Gerben, if it's bad that down to Honda. Looking at the linkage bar it looks to me to have not been removed as the retaining pin doesn't look to have been drilled out BUT I could be wrong as he's done that and fitted another, I use screw in ones, if he done that he's used a plain rivet which IMO isn't a great idea. If he didn't remove the pin he's clearly just tidied up the linkage bar and not done a great job of that either. I had 3 of mine hard chromed, it's not cheap to have done these days, about £65 or so IIRC. However that does fix the problem permanently.
Looks like you need to have the cable clamp straightened and also check the butterfly isn't bent as well.
I did these for another member earlier this year. I opted for bright zinc plating with blue passivate rather than gold. Roo did the plating as my kit wasn't set up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdZhyk2Y/IMG-3165.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xkXT4vNc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4H5tpL8/IMG-3162.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zbnNs0zX)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFy5JcRp/IMG-3163.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tnjqJ8Sx)
(https://i.postimg.cc/28QBPCPK/IMG-3166.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kB54SPMQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDsvpNMq/IMG-3164.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VSKZdtKB)
I even polished up the brass in the float bowls, might as well do a good job whilst you're in there :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgS62DLR/IMG-3161.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kVSD5NJL)
The Honda piping isn't ethanol resistant Skoti, it might be now but the older stuff isn't. Common practice is to replace with Viton Orings inside and Nitrile fuel pipe which is ethanol resistant. Like this I used.
Your work looks top notch compared with Gerben.
Incidentally the genuine Honda fuel hose from DS also comes in the correct 5.5mm I.D. which prevents stretching onto the carb 'T' piece.
https://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/tubes (https://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/tubes)
Can't see anything about the new Honda hoses actually being ethanol proof, but last weekend I clocked 30k on my old F1 (now showing 55k in total) and the genuine Honda hoses are still fine.
My Honda lawn tractor is almost 20 years old and fitted with the same genuine hoses, that's where I got the idea from.
Previous aftermarket hoses I'd tried lasted a couple of years and then snapped like dry twigs, maybe I was unlucky.
But at 22 quid a metre the genuine stuff is not cheap.
You often get what you pay for.
Cheers
Skoti
P.S.
just noticed you use the correct 'made in Japan' green and black handled Vessel screwdrivers, no mangled screw heads with your work!
Post by: Bryanj on September 17, 2023, 02:35:32 PM
Now have my own ultrasonic in partnership with my mate and only worry aboutairway/jetway clealiness as i dont do restore but rebuild for use
Post by: Oddjob on September 17, 2023, 02:42:14 PM
The fuel pipe clip I made out of some old alloy sheet and then shrink wrapped with some heavy duty pre glued shrink wrap so it didn't cut the pipe.
A lot of the bolts and screws are stainless, the others are brand new JIS screws. I tend not to re-use screws unless they are unique.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 17, 2023, 02:47:34 PM
The main throttle shaft dismantling will be new territory for me so I will take loads of photos so that the centre spring fits back on as it should.
I am not much good at riveting except with pop rivets so more learning ahead for me.
Post by: Oddjob on September 17, 2023, 03:06:05 PM
Inside the 2 towers that support the linkage bar are some bronze or brass bushes, make sure they are ok. Re-assemble with some silicon oil or grease and when re-inserting the rivet or screw used to stop the bar coming out make sure the bar can spin freely, easy to nip it up and make the mechanism bind. I did consider drilling a couple of small holes in the top of the towers so I could periodically drop some oil down into the bushes but decided against it, might do it on my own set though, just cap them off with some screws etc to stop dirt gaining access. I'm not 100% sure but I suspect the butterfly on yours is twisted, once the carbs are off check it before removing to see. A quick spin should show if it's buckled. I have a spare somewhere if it's junk.
The mechanism looks complicated but TBH it's pretty simple once it comes apart.
The return spring on those carbs was from DS, it proved to be too weak to return the carbs properly and we nicked an original spring off another bank and fitted that using a 5mm stainless steel split ring on the bottom pin to reduce the pull of the spring, hence why you can see the spring weight in some of the pics, I was measuring how strong the springs were in comparison. IIRC the OE spring has a 12lb pull, with a 5mm split ring used it's only 8lbs. As we get older and the wrists start to weaken that reduction could help a lot
Forgot to mention the carb bracket, the main one, has been ceramic coated in silver rather than sprayed with silver paint, it's resistant to most things so should last as long as the hard chromed rod it's fitted with. I had 3 done at the same time, one satin black, one silver and one done in a sort of chrome finish. Just wanted to see how they looked before using them. Not sure yet what colour my bracket will be. Just bought a set of CB550 069A carbs so I have another rod and bracket to restore unless I break them for spares.
Post by: Bryanj on September 17, 2023, 03:19:21 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 17, 2023, 06:39:28 PM
I won't really know until it's taken apart - always wondered why they were not spot welded - not as many welding robots back then?
Post by: Bryanj on September 17, 2023, 06:56:54 PM
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on September 17, 2023, 07:52:38 PM
“Hand built by robots - driven by Italians”
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: AshimotoK0 on September 17, 2023, 10:36:53 PM
Post by: Oddjob on September 18, 2023, 02:08:01 AM
I've only cleaned up the right side as the ceramic coaters left a lot of the metal unburnished, I was mucking about with some new polishing tools and used this as it is quite intricate and has hard to access areas. Left it like that so I could show it to the coaters in case they want to buy some of these new tools.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKYJDfPd/IMG-2993.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w1fhY3dd)
As this is the reverse it's the left side that's been done.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWFKCP2G/IMG-2994.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hhLTP2qs)
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 18, 2023, 04:16:48 PM
I did notice that the brass bearing on that side is not a full one like the other end of the bracket - see photo. Can't understand why it does not have a full bearing with a hole for the rivet. If you zoom in you can see it's closed to half a brass insert.
The shaft has cleaned up a tad - the rust is restricted to the outside area of the shaft not where the bearings & various parts fit. Not sure what to do with it tbh.
The centre quadrant type part is pretty clean but it's only just holding together tbh by two rivets - it does not appear to be out of shape or damaged likewise the throttle clamp looks okay - the two bolts that hold it in place with the fuel pipe bracket were such that when loosed it was straight - might have been just tightened up wonky or the split quadrant put some side pressure on the throttle cable action.
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53196421801_41954d315a_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p3MySe)bearing end rivet (https://flic.kr/p/2p3MySe) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53196620040_a822d78af8_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p3NzN9)throttle shaft (https://flic.kr/p/2p3NzN9) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
Post by: Oddjob on September 18, 2023, 04:48:42 PM
As for the shaft, not a great deal you can do with that TBH, whatever you do will come back eventually. Only option is to get it replated, trouble is with what. If you go with BZP you'll need to remove whatever is left of the original finish I'd imagine, plus you then have the problem of if you overplate it the shaft won't fit through the hole where the bush is. When I had my last 2 shaft hard chromed they didn't grind down the parts of the shaft where the 2 woodruff keys fit. They did grind them down but just not as deep as the rest of the shaft, mainly I think because the edges were chipping (which was evident on all the shafts where there were holes in the metal, like screw holes etc) I had to put the shafts in a drill and gently sand them down with some very fine wet/dry until they fitted without catching. Bright decorative chrome may work but more chance of it rusting etc later on.
The other alternative is to replace the entire bracket. Solves both problems. However any old bracket is almost certain to have shaft pitting.
I had the same problem when I started on my carbs, the shaft was so badly pitted I had to buy a NOS one from DS. His last one as it turns out and when it arrived from America it was missing parts they'd robbed to sell. DS replaced them all after a little bother. CMS still have one left, price is an eye watering £906.52 plus P&P. After customs best part of £1000. Ds price £1002.29 plus P&P. Just spotted this.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/314117753958 doesn't post to the UK though. Might be an alternative solution though.
As it turns out I'll not be using the bracket as I'll be building one up with a hard chrome shaft. Not sure if I want to sell the NOS one TBH, might do if the offer is right.
You think yours was bad, look at my old one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMpN4Jt7/IMG-1340.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SXxpj8cQ)
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 18, 2023, 05:30:42 PM
I cleaned the corroded section and pulled it out away from the pinned clamp.
Looking at the inside of the bracket there is a large cut out section where the pin fits imho it was re-built with a half bearing by either Gerben or a previous owner as the remaining area aside from the pin rebate is not jagged.
Only way I can see to save my bracket is to have a brass bearing made with some reaming - expensive. Once the shaft is in place it could be painted & used. They are pretty much hidden away so not a Biggie.
Post by: Oddjob on September 18, 2023, 06:04:29 PM
I'd just replace that bracket Ted. If Bryan hasn't got one I may be able to sell you one of my ceramic coated ones, or I have one right now from a set of 550 carbs, same bracket, that I've just pulled apart. Just the bracket, no rod etc.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 18, 2023, 08:07:01 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on September 18, 2023, 08:43:56 PM
Unsure of sizing but an example here https://www.bearings-online.co.uk/item/3076/PlainOiliteBush/AMC121608-Plain-Oilite-Bush-12x16x08.html that may turn up something that could fit or be machined simply to correct a dimension and give alternative supply.
Post by: K2-K6 on September 18, 2023, 08:47:35 PM
I'd only consider it's not stainless originally for cost reasons. It'd be completely within material spec for this application in making another now.
Post by: Laverda Dave on September 18, 2023, 09:36:06 PM
Ted, I have used these guys a few times for both welding/fabrication work and also for turning up special parts. I know they are a long way from you but you could give them a call. You need to speak with Kerry as he does the lathe and milling work. They are both great guys, both are past retirement but both love what they do and are good at it. Kerry is also a biker and likes old school jap bikes. https://g.co/kgs/9rSjLy
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 19, 2023, 01:20:10 AM
.https://www.cmsnl.com/products/plate-set-stay_16035323004/?locale=de-de&cjevent=f7177d77568111ee81041aa00a18ba73
Post by: Oddjob on September 19, 2023, 03:43:15 AM
Post by: Bryanj on September 19, 2023, 05:29:10 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 19, 2023, 04:29:50 PM
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53199116133_0b4f1713ac_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p42nNe)PXL_20230919_151939118 (https://flic.kr/p/2p42nNe) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 21, 2023, 10:24:45 AM
When I fitted new seals in my 400 (kit from NJ) they were a nice firm fit in the body needing a smear of red rubber grease to be pushed in with my thumb - these just do not seal as they should - in fact they start to drop down when turned the right way up!
I'm going to need to replace all the O rings when NJ is back from that Greek island.
Post by: florence on September 21, 2023, 12:21:05 PM
I might be able to find one in my collection.
yes, and bracket
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 21, 2023, 01:55:19 PM
There is a potential souce of a new shaft in SS from the US in the future. Thanks Ted
Post by: florence on September 21, 2023, 03:43:17 PM
Post by: Oddjob on September 21, 2023, 04:59:11 PM
I have the parts to complete them so I might be up for a little project.
Post by: florence on September 22, 2023, 12:52:30 PM
Post by: florence on September 25, 2023, 03:01:52 PM
Post by: florence on September 25, 2023, 03:11:09 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 25, 2023, 05:06:05 PM
Post by: florence on September 26, 2023, 11:05:22 AM
Post by: Oddjob on September 26, 2023, 02:07:28 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 08, 2023, 06:03:00 PM
On taking Carb:2 to bits today I was surprised to find silicone type sealant was used both on the carb top gasket and for the fuel bowl O rings.
Post by: Bryanj on October 08, 2023, 06:07:31 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 08, 2023, 06:59:30 PM
As my Dad used to say a firms reputation is only as good as their worst mechanic.
Good bit is the bowls and top were easy to shine up again. Quite a few of the bowl screws were rusted so I've used SS replacements.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 09, 2023, 10:40:34 AM