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Messages - Oddjob

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CB500/550 / Re: I'm curious as to what this would really do
« on: February 03, 2024, 09:20:12 AM »
How complete is it Andy?

Project Board / Re: Doms CB550F1 project
« on: February 02, 2024, 11:35:19 PM »
Ahh, the sprocket carrier oscillating would certainly cause that type of damage Dom. Explains that.

Project Board / Re: My 750F2 project.
« on: February 02, 2024, 09:30:56 PM »
Crapped all over? I commented that it looked like it maybe hadn’t taken, you hadn’t explained you were using a home brew kit and the results were very different to the results we get in the Uk with better kits. You’d prefer not knowing? Fine.

As for the damper post, it was a comment on my experience on a using rattle can finish on damper bodies, more of a rant on how frustrating it is to see so much work turn out to be so disappointing. Maybe that helps someone helps to avoid the same mistake. But hey if you’re so sensitive that any comments not amounting to a pat in the back is unwelcome then that’s fine. I’ve said I won’t post anymore, even if at some point in the future you really do need some help or advise.

Project Board / Re: My 750F2 project.
« on: February 02, 2024, 08:09:34 PM »
How you got critical from my post I have no idea. It was meant to show how annoying it was to do all that work only to find it looking so bad within a short time.

I’ll refrain from trying to help in future.

Project Board / Re: 30 years of storage later, the project begins.
« on: February 02, 2024, 05:58:51 PM »
Frames welded. Picking it up Monday and bringing it home to work on, as soon as the powder coating is ready I'll drop it off for painting.

CB500/550 / Re: I'm curious as to what this would really do
« on: February 02, 2024, 05:56:13 PM »
Just checked and the 650 has a 26T primary gear and 61T on the clutch gear. Looks the same so it may be possible. It would depend on the splines matching on the primary gear as Honda did change the primary shaft for the 650. I wonder if anyone has a 650 lump lying about who can check?

Where's the warm feeling of satisfaction and achievement in that! (Whereas keeping a tenner in your there's a fine feeling,).🙂

I'm thinking Andy may be Roos brother.

CB500/550 / Re: I'm curious as to what this would really do
« on: February 02, 2024, 05:48:04 PM »
Well I didn't think this would get a lot of answers if I'm honest, more of the rolling of the eyes and who cares kinda looks.

So lets answer them as posted.

Dave, I don't have a 650 clutch basket, no idea if it uses the same damping arrangement as the 500/550 either, plus I'd have to marry it with it's primary gear and there's a chance the splines may be different to the 500/550 but I do see the point, although if I'm honest I didn't really like the 650 engine very much, not sure why, it got a primary chain tensioner which is very handy (I've got one to fit in my 500), it got rid of the tappet arrangement, again probably better, changed the camchain to a Hyvo one, again, probably better, no points etc, I mean what's not to like, BUT it seemed to lose it's character, it seemed bland. It also didn't really go any better than the 500/550 IIRC.

Yes Ted I could, that's the easy answer BUT my point was would changing just this 2 gears make any appreciable difference, not aiming for more speed etc just curious to see if I can spot any difference between the 2 setups, whilst at the same time not changing anything else, so if I get the same speed with 500rpm less for instance is that a worthwhile mod, I'd personally say no unless you're changing the damping rubbers and you have the other parts handy or can get them real cheap. I'm more curious than anything else, purely from a desire to know point. .

Yes Nige I suspected that, however Honda changed the gears in the 550 box and do those changes negate the clutch gear changes for instance, they only changed a couple of gears but I'm thinking Honda at the time of the 550 were trying to compete with bikes like the RD400 and the Suzuki 550, this I seem to recall was why they changed the gears to get more acceleration, in order to try and compete, which TBH they couldn't, all the 550 could do was to get there without leaving a smoke trail that the police could follow to track you.

I wasn't aware it had a name Nige, nice to know.

I'm sure he regretted having it fitted Johnny, the story goes he was told to keep the waste gate set at 2lbs or something and as soon as he hit the motorway he opened the waste gate screw to get more power. Well that worked, he got more power than he or the motor could handle. 

It was a nice learning curve at the time John, the CBX was so new we didn't even have a workshop manual for it, I had to ring Honda for the torque pressures when I built it back up. Lapping 24 valves in by hand though took me a few days.

Yeah I was aware of that Bryan, I think I'll keep the 34T rear sprocket though, I prefer the speed to the acceleration.

Different markets though Delta, as you point out the K version was made to appeal to touring whereas the F model was made to appeal to the younger crowd, the F looked more modern than the K, although I prefer the look of the 500 over the 550. It has more character.

Project Board / Re: Doms CB550F1 project
« on: February 02, 2024, 05:17:48 PM »
What spacer, no pic?

CB500/550 / I'm curious as to what this would really do
« on: February 02, 2024, 11:30:46 AM »
I love mucking about, thinking of ways to make the bike both easier to maintain, or to make it handle a little better or go a little faster or even just last a little longer. It's why all of my bikes are modded, not in your face modifications, just little subtle ones that you may not spot until you're up close, most are missed by most unless you're an anorak on the model (guilty there on the 500).

A little example, whilst working at QPM I had to repair a CBX1000 that had had a turbo fitted and the owner had been stupid and turned the boost up above recommended settings, the CBX at the time had only been out for a few months, so little was really known about the engine, the owner wanted a one off, something people would crowd around in the car park, more money than sense kinda guy, so he went down to Dixon Racing and had this huge turbo bolted on, the result was it blew the head off, snapped all the studs, snapped the camchain and blew the head off so hard it dented the underside of the frame. I was given the job of repairing it, which involved a new head etc. It took me a few weeks to do waiting for parts etc, anyway, on completion I bolted the engine back in the frame and was putting the cams etc back in when I noticed something unique about the CBX1000, there are 4 cams not 2. They are joined in the middle by hardened steel crosses, like raised plus signs on each side of a coin of metal. Really odd setup. The more I looked at it the more intrigued I became, you had the ability to reverse one set of cams so that due to the wasted spark system you could have 2 cylinders firing at the same time, 1 and 6, 2 and 5 and 3 and 4. A sort of double 3. All the mechanics came to look at it and we decided to see what it ran like in that configuration. The CBX had only been out a few months as I said so we must have been the first to do this, so I reversed the left hand cams so they matched the right and started it up, it started no problem like that. It did however sound odd, a really odd exhaust note, quite nice actually, I only ran it like that up and down the workshop just to see what it felt like and it felt more powerful but not as smooth as the straight six did. No tank on, just the petrol in the carbs BTW. After that I changed it back and never saw the bike again after it left the workshop. The owner learned his money can't buy everything.

And so I was idling my time thinking of random stuff, and I noticed I have an opportunity to do a mod that whilst others may have done it they've never had the ability to see exactly what they've done in terms of results. In a short time I'll be replacing the clutch damping rubbers in 2 clutch baskets I have, one is a 500 and the other is a 550. It's not well known but the clutches have different gearing between the models, the 500 has 64 teeth on it's rear gear and the 550 has 63, to accommodate this change Honda fitted a different primary drive gear with the 500 having 23T and the 550 24T.

So it's not possible to change the clutch on the 500 to a 550 one without changing the primary drive gear at the same time and of course the 550 clutch is a lot bigger than the 500 is, having a different way of releasing the clutch, the 500 push rod and the 550 cable operated. In the dim and distant past I'd attempted to graft a 550 clutch onto a 500 engine but the clutch casing is slightly different and as a result the engine oil just pours out. I do know someone on the forum has tried this very mod by blocking up the casing alteration to keep the engine oil in place. It should work in theory. But what difference will that make to the engine besides having a lighter clutch that is. Different gearing gives different results, Honda knew this and also altered the gearbox in the 550 so it has different gear ratios for some of the gears, so IF you change the gearing on the clutch but still run the 500 gearbox what difference will this make in real terms?

So what, I was thinking, is what happens IF I fit a 550 rear gear to a 500 clutch basket, in effect retaining the 500 clutch but running the 550 gear ratios, without having to do the casing mod. What result would that give? better top end speed, better acceleration, no appreciable difference, I'm curious.

It would be a simple matter to test the results, notice what speed at what revs the 500 setup gives and after replacing the clutch with the modified basket along with the primary gear run the same test, does it make a difference, and if it does is the difference worthwhile? If it lowers the speed  it's most likely increasing the acceleration, is this something worthwhile? Would it allow the engine to pull to the redline in top for instance, something the 500 won't do unless it's going downhill.

Am I sad to think of stuff like this?

Project Board / Re: My 750F2 project.
« on: February 02, 2024, 10:31:18 AM »
The problem with repainting shocks is that not matter how careful you are it's never strong enough to withstand the adjusting process, the paint on the top of the lugs gets rubbed off as soon as you move the collars, then sometimes just the collar moving can rub the paint off underneath it, the springs can touch the body when they compress and that rubs paint off, they look great until you use them. Makes me mad as hell, all that work, all that time and they look worse than they did before within a few months, not to mention scratching the paint with the spring compressors, Jesus my blood pressure is going up just thinking about it.

Calming down now, they look really nice, and the collars are really well made. Well done.

CB350/400 / Re: Seizing horseshoes
« on: February 02, 2024, 10:24:14 AM »
Keep the camchain properly tensioned and replace the chain when it needs it and it shouldn't happen again. The problem was owners not wanting to spend money on the bike and running the engine into the ground, saying that the design left a little to be desired IMO, far better to copy the 500/550 system but Honda decided not to for some reason. Maybe they just didn't foresee the problems the system would have, lets face it Honda are not well known for camchain tensioning design, CX500 anyone?

If nothing else I'd consider replacing or modifying the pivot pin, IIRC they look like dogs teeth when you remove them.

Project Board / Re: 30 years of storage later, the project begins.
« on: February 02, 2024, 10:17:54 AM »
I'm going to disagree with you on this Nige. Whilst I appreciate the concern and the info it's not something I did lightly, every mod we do to bikes can alter the characteristics, I'm going to be running a taper roller bearing conversion in this swinging arm, known to stiffen it up a little, running different shocks, again, altering the handling. I also think if the swinging arm was flexing as much as you think it is they wouldn't last as long as they do, metal fatigue would get them in the end. Plus, if the arms are flexing as bad as you seem to think, why no paint cracking?

As for the cornering sensation, yes I've felt that a lot, I raced a 500 for a few years, it's why we modify the frames, the shocks, the bushes etc, we want to get rid of it, I've seen an accident happen just because of it, mate of mine 2 up went down a hole in the road surface, suspension bottomed out, he lost control on the corner and was sent across the road head on into a car, luckily the hole was on the exit of a tight roundabout so speed of both vehicles was low. I also think most of the flex is the arm bending down, not the arms distorting individually, quite possibly why Dresda made his swinging arms sectional rather than tubular, again known to stiffen up the rear end on these bikes. Which makes me wonder, are Dresda swinging arm seam welded or spot type welded like Hondas? I'm betting seam, I doubt Dave would have liked the open seam look.

TBH we don't know if the mod will do anything at all, it may stop some of the flexing, it may make no difference at all (except for stopping water ingress) it may cause premature failure, lets do it and see what happens. it's the only way we'll know for sure.

As for the frames welds, I severely doubt they'll make any difference to the frames strength or it's way of coping with stress, all it may do is extend the life of the frame considerably by reducing corrosion. Getting a new lug put on or another section of tube must be far worse than any mod I can do for the frames integrity.

Project Board / Re: 30 years of storage later, the project begins.
« on: February 01, 2024, 07:39:07 PM »
Is that a 550 chain guard as my 500 one is  plastic ?
Be good if its a straight fit but I guess it's not.
Yes it's a straight fit Ted, well almost. The rear flange needs a hole tapped to 6mm in it for the rear support, a small section of the guard needs slightly filing to allow it to fit around the chain adjuster, other than that it's a direct replacement, never did like the black plastic one, looks dated to me, a reminder of 60s thinking.

Looking good Ken, I like your idea of a 'light sanding', I call that a polish 🙂.
Are you going to spray the frame with wd40 or suchlike to protect it in its raw state and whilst you attend to the welds. I know powder coat doesn't like any kind of corrosion or are you planning on fixing the welds and then giving it another light dusting with the blast gun?
Not doing a thing to it Dave, it's in the welders now getting all the gaps filled, then when it's done I'll bring it home and dress all the welds, remove all welding splatter, I also intend to try and smooth the frame down of all the pitting, the nearside as you can see I've already done, that's why it looks smooth, however the paint was so hard (stove enameled back in the 70s) that it was taking me ages to remove it. I'll try and get it glass smooth and then it's goes back to the powder coaters for another go in the blasting booth before being powder coated.
"Onto the powder/ceramic coaters, dropped the frame off so they can grit blast it, then they'll return it to me and I'll drop it off at the welders on my way back, again filling in all the brackets and lugs etc that Honda again didn't seam weld, stuff like the lower front engine mounts, water gets under and rots the frame underneath the lug and you can't see it. When the welders finished I'll bring it home and inspect it to see how the metal has held up, dress all the welds and get rid of all Honda weld splatter, I want the frame to feel like glass so the powder coating comes out as well as it can"

The gaps are left as stress mitigation in part of the design and testing, normal to not connect bracing completely to avoid failure.

The swing arm ones (in exaggerated illustration) if you push one arm up the other down, then those gaps will move like a fish mouth as the bracing takes the stress. The top and bottom welds running along the arms themselves are in shear stress, with the brace itself in compressive and tensile loading diagonally across the flat surface.

Welding the "open" ends on the arm constrains it such that it can crack rather than "breath", the crack can then travel into the main arm tube via the weld, just where you dont need it.

Welding is often delineated in structure to avoid stress cracking to follow along the weld route in causing ultimate failure of the main component.

I reckon if the swinging arm is bending to that extent I've got more serious problems than a potential crack. The frames in being done now, the idea is to close up all the additions that Honda welded onto the frame, these just let water and crap inside and that allows rust to form, how many 500 frames have you seen with the exhaust hanger brackets corroded through from the inside? I've seen a few. The idea Nigel is not to strengthen the frame, just to stop corrosion forming, I can't believe filling in the joints on the lower engine mounts will cause any frame failure, I'll be drilling small drainage holes to allow any condensation to escape, I'll also be filling all those brackets and the frame tubes with Waxoyl. A custom made frame doesn't have all those holes Nige, I've seen a few and they are welded properly, all I'm doing is fixing what Honda should have done from the start IMO. I personally think is was a time saving thing, just tack weld them on instead of seam welding, made to a budget.
I still have a spare swinging arm, I'll not weld that up so if anything does happen, which I doubt, I can always revert to the spare.
Oddly the welder, with 50 years of experience, didn't advise me not to do it, he reckoned it was a bit OTT but then again that's me all over.

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