Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: Ewan 500 K1 on December 30, 2011, 04:48:39 PM
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Time to get the 500 four back on the road after a break of three years, this time this time to finish the cafe racer job that was started about 17 years ago
Done : Full Engine rebuild about 3000 miles ago.
To do:
K&N Air Filters (done)
Straight through pipes (done)
Rejet with 110 mains/ clean / syncronise carbs (done)
Rebuild both wheels with new rims & spokes(done)
Dual Disc front brake conversion (done)
Drill front sprocket cover
Remodel Front Mudguard (done)
Drill brake discs (done)
Detag & shorten Frame (done)
Replace stock speedo/ rev counter (done)
Ace Bars (done)
Custom Tarozzi Rear Sets on rear foot peg hangers (done)
Relocate Battery (done)
Rewire from front to back and everywhere in between (done)
New Headlight (done)
New idicators (done)
New speedo (done)
New rear lights set up
New longer rear shocks (done)
New front mudguard (done)
Polish alloy (done)
Braided Stainless Fuel & Brake Hoses (done)
Stainless Bolts througout (done)
Refurbish Front Forks (done)
New Rear Shock Swing Arm Bushes (done)
New Plugs
Powder Coat the frame
Investigate effect of longer rear shocks on bike geometry and make front end adjustments if necessary (nearly done)
Fit Steering Damper (done)
Fit grease nipples to front break caliper arm pivot points (done)
Tune carbs
Get MOT, tax and insurance
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First job ... rebuild wheels with new chrome rims and steel spokes
references:
A good wheel build thread from Do the Ton: http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=32345.10
Article from web bike world : http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-wheels/spoke-wheels/
never done a wheel build before ... expect some mistakes :P
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Looks like some of the outer spokes go under the inner spokes.
Did you have any trouble getting the wheel parts, took my rear spokes/rim 4 months
to arrive.
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Before lacing your rear drum check the liner for cracks :-\
And I wouldn't bother with electronic ignition, the original set-up is so bleedin reliable
Looking nice and shiny, if the rest of your build is as good this bike is gonna be nice, keep the photos coming.
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Steel liner is good ... cheers.. and been hoarding some morris Minor brake hubs for past 15 years "just in case" .. and just couldn't resist picking up a 2nd hand Dyna S on ebay ;) Engine had a major refurbishment about 3000 miles (8 years !) ago. No probs with availability of spokes n rims at DSS... except that I'd also ordered two new brake pistons that were out of stock and DSS were reluctant to send wheels / rims as a part order... so it did take a couple of months for them to arrive (and why didn't I get stainless spokes anyway !) Hoping I've laced the wheel right second time around... will need to look at it again with a fresh mind t'morro....got a bit minced today with the 5 dimensional aspect of it . Only concern just now is that some spokes are rock tight towrads end of thread being visible, while others are still well waggly. We'll see what a fresh look in the morning and a spoke wrench brings to things. Think I fancy some black pinstrpes around inside of the new rims.
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I recently rebuilt both of my wheels with DSS rims and spokes. My first time too. I have to say when laced up they came out remarkably true. The nipples all screwed in - to my eye - exactly the same amount. It was a joy to assemble. In terms of truing them, all I had to do was circle around the spokes giving them a turn at a time until all were tight.
Had you got it right..?? are they finished and trued now...?
Keep the original airbox...!!! K&N's are rubbish and noisy. Using the original air box is loads better. Its a still air chamber, if you want more air cut an oval slot in the bottom under the filter.
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DONT drill holes in the clutch cover as oil will leak out
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cheers folks ... clutch cover holes abandoned. K&N's staying as a feature though as I'm opening the middle up ..... relocating battery / electrics etc and god its a pain in the arse getting the carbs off with the original filter on. Not finished the wheels yet .... family stuff keeps getting in the way and spoke wrench still to arrive in the pst! ..... its going to be slow prgress
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After running k&n style filters for a while I got right royally cheesed off with the bad running and went back to stock. Only exception was my 500/4 with a k&n kit that replaced the airbox but used the stock mixing chamber so totally original looking unless you took the seat off. That did work well but the individual filters had the bike running quite eratically and nowhere as close to as good as original preformance.
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I fitted K/Ns to mine and i am having issues with the starting and tickover. I cannot go back to the airbox
as the bikes been changed so i am searching the forums for any advice.
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I use open belmouths on my 500/4 carbs, (avatar bike) it runs really sweet, I made my own 4 into 1 exhaust system thats reasonably quiet and bought new carb kits with a view to using the main jets supplied in the kits as a start point and drill out later, after many plug chops I decided to stick with the original jets.
After balancing the carbs it ticks over beautifully
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I use K & N filters and laser exhaust. With bigger jets it runs better than standard. Tickover is perfect and no flat spots. I can't remember what jets I used now but I think it could be 110? Someone here will know more about this than me.
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More of a question than answer, but what kind of fuel economy are members getting with alterd jettings and filters. I still have mine in a box and May try fitting them again at some point if i can get the carbs balanced too as that May have been what made the bike run rough. I found it worst with the laser system which was also a tad loud for my liking - i preferred my motad neta pipes over others I've tried but am looking forward to trying a 4 into 2 system which is waiting in the shed.
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Carbs now have 110 jets & K&N's paired with 4 into 4 straight through pipes. Runs sweet with that set up, but was essential to balance the carbs. Also used a coloutune to check idle sped air mix, which seems fine according to the colourtune. Fuel consumption is ridiculous -- 25mpg ish ?? . SPOKE WRENCH ARRIVED THIS MORNIN > WOOP WOOP Front wheel built and trued to 0.2mm vertical and horizontal. First wheel build, wasn't too difficult.
Photos showing roughly what finished job will look like , minus rear sets, new headlight, dual disk, master cyliner, indicators and shorty front mudguard . Dilemma = what to do about rear nudguard, want to keep it clean and open, but dont want muck all over the K&N's
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I have found the fuel consumption is fairly good with the 110. k&N + Laser set up. Of course it all depends on how hard the bike is ridden.
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Dilemma 1: Do I up chop the rear quarter of the seat base off to allow battery relocation ..... or get a different seat unit ? ::)
Dilemma 2: What to do about rear inner mudguard ? .... dont like the stock plastic job, but don't want road muck all over then engine and air intakes. Photos of any solutions mucho appreciated ;)
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You could buy a small piece of Aluminium plate [ebay] and just bolt it between
the rear frame tubes. You would probably have to put a slight bend in it for tyre clearance
but that is easy enough with alloy.
I was originally going to relocate the battery on mine but trying to fit a full size battery
and all the electrics in a small seat hump seemed to need alot of compromises. As you can see
from my Avatar i ended up fitting alloy side panels.
A new seat would be a better option so you can experiment without damaging you present seat.
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Could a modern hugger be modified to fit?
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You could buy a small piece of Aluminium plate [ebay] and just bolt it between
the rear frame tubes. You would probably have to put a slight bend in it for tyre clearance
but that is easy enough with alloy.
I was originally going to relocate the battery on mine but trying to fit a full size battery
and all the electrics in a small seat hump seemed to need alot of compromises. As you can see
from my Avatar i ended up fitting alloy side panels.
A new seat would be a better option so you can experiment without damaging you present seat.
Cheers Kendo n Steve
bit of ali was on my mind ... or welded in plate. But yeah was worried about clearance (mibi longer shocks would help) . So yeat at:
1. Ali plate, so that it can be shaped for clearance
2. welded flat steel plate with longer rear shocks
3. Find a modern one to fit (anyone know of any definites ?)
I think the current seat has enough room for a battery and some electrics in its rear hump.. also a bit of space between seat base and where cover for standard air box was ... so think the space is there okay as long as I cut a section out the seat base.... it aleady has a hinged box compartment
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Modern huggers are designed for 180 and 190 tyres so there'll be plenty of clearance.
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crap & bollocks , when I look at the rebuilt front wheel, the hub is too far off centre, despite the rim being trued to 0.2mm... need to unbuild and start again. Additional buggeration is that I have now mashed one of the the nipples. Can anyone tell me this, are all 40 spokes identical ?
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No they are NOT, according to the parts list, there are 20 Type "A", and 20 Type "B", the difference is very slight, but they are different :'(
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No they are NOT, according to the parts list, there are 20 Type "A", and 20 Type "B", the difference is very slight, but they are different :'(
SHIT !!!!, so they are ! . I assume 20 are inside and 20 outside
. Any idea which are which. Ones from Dave Silver all came ina single packet
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Okay,just checked with DSS website, Spoke "A" is 203mm long, and goes on the inside of the hub, Spoke B is 202.5mm long, and goes on the outside of the hub, hope this helps ;)
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The angle of the head to spoke is also different inside to outside
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yes the spokes that go from inside of hub to outside have a sharper angle, if you need a spare nipple i have a couple of new ones left over from my last rebuild, regards Mick
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Okay,just checked with DSS website, Spoke "A" is 203mm long, and goes on the inside of the hub, Spoke B is 202.5mm long, and goes on the outside of the hub, hope this helps ;)
why dont they tell ya that when ya buy the effin things FFS . Great day today , poured chain oil into the petrol tank in the chainsaw, full strip down took rest of afternoon. Bring on the summer
Mick, if you could spare me a nipple , that'd be great. I'll PM you.
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One of them days eh? Might be as well to get a spare fuel filter for the chainsaw. After getting fuel ratio's messed up between our old huskies 25:1 and the new sthil's 50:1 I had a very frustrating day in the woods with 2 very nearly new saws that damn near wouldn't run even after soaking the filters in neat petrol and cleaning the exhausts, fuel tanks, filters and plugs, they'd just get thru half a tank and die, seemed like fuel starvation, we are pretty sure the fuel filters are the culprit but we didn't have spares. Was a right **** of a day that. I really hope the new filters are the fix..
Bit of a pain to find that after the wheels built, it would be nice if the different spokes were in seperate bags with part numbers......
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saw is running okay again , hey summats going right the day ::)
All spokes are back off the wheel. Just measured the two different types. The ones with >90 degree bend = 214mm from extremity to extremity = A spokes (part no. 44606-300-003). The ones with the <> 90 degree bend are 219mm frm extremity to extremity = B Spokes (part no. 44607-300-003)
See photo below.
So, unless someone tells me different , I'm gonna put the B spokes on the outside of the hub (In other words poke the threaded bit of these from hub centre outwards)......and the A's on the inside (poked through the hub holes from outside to inside). 3rd time lucky then .......
Again, thanks all for helping me through the pain and agony. If it fails next time around, think I'll jst stab masel in the throat wae one of the damn things. ;)
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Heres how i do it.
Get the 20 spokes that go from the outside to inside and lace them to the rim then true the rim on just the 20 (less to play with so easier) then fit the 20 that go from the inside to outside (I think these are the ones with the longer bit on the end--B on your picture) and fit and tighten
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The spokes with the longest nipple shank go on the outside. In other words poke the threaded bit of these from hub centre outwards. The spokes with the shorter nipple shank are poked through the hub holes from outside to in. They dont fit any other way without force.
I'm not on about spoke length, I'm on about just the nipple, the outside spokes are longer from nipple to bend.
Well thats what I did..
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plain (as it can get ) english award to z1100...... Ive modified my last post, using your words. I think we were in the same place :D Words., who'd ave em. I'll do some pictures when I get time to do another rebuild of the front wheel.
Bryan , I think we;re also in the same place re which spokes go where. I'll try your 20 spokes first method and let u know , sounds sensible to me.
Almost feel as if I might know what I'm doing next time around 8)
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sorry to hijack the the thread, but ive been following it, as i'm thinking of replacing mine with new rims and spokes, what do you think of the quality of dss rims and where did you get the spoke wrench from. any advice would be appreciated.
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DSS sells japanese rims direct from the manufacturer and the one i had was superb.
Spoke key wrench you may find ata pushbike shop as they used to be circular with lots of sizes on them
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thanx bri. :)
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Personally i would go with stainless rims but i am not a big fan of chrome. Once it starts
to pit there is not much you can do with it and the stainless rims are highly polished these days so
they look like chrome.
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sorry to hijack the the thread, but ive been following it, as i'm thinking of replacing mine with new rims and spokes, what do you think of the quality of dss rims and where did you get the spoke wrench from. any advice would be appreciated.
Clive, spoke wrench came from http://dirtbikestore.co.uk. They have a couple of different models. In hindsight I think I should have got stainless rims and spokes myself
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I thought about stainless too. Then i thought nargh sod it, whats the point...the bike wont be out in the salty wet again, it certainly wont be left parked in the rain all day and all night for 25 years. The std front chrome rim lasted from 1975 until 2010. I'll be long dead before another chrome rim is knackered. Polish it up with some waxy stuff every now and then they'll be fine I thought.
Plus, the rims I got from DS were dead true, with perfect length spokes making them an absolute doddle to assemble, and considering how much I was panicing about doing it before hand, I was sure glad it all fitted together so well.
I've seen them down at Central Wheel 'bending' and hammering spokes to get them to clear the hub, with great lengths of thread comming out of some and others clinging on with only a couple of threads. I had my Enfied wheels done there using Akront rims and stainless spokes. This was early 90's. They cost me a fortune and came back sh*t. The front hub was so distorted I could'nt get the backplates in with the shoes on. I had to loosen all spokes and start again...a bloody joke.
Stainless looks nothing like chrome, its alot duller, I wanted my Honda back to mega bling again.
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Stainless looks nothing like chrome, its alot duller
That used to be the case but not these days
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee87/kendo57/cafe%20project/cafe_129.jpg)
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WOW do they do stainless for the 750
pete
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Front wheel rebuild done right this time, So here's how I did it .
I used following guides for the wheel building;
http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-wheels/spoke-wheels/
http://www.classicbikes.org.uk/ ..... wheel building page
1. Got loads of help from this forum and the US one
2. Cut the old spokes and rim off the hub
3. Polished outsides of hub and painted centres with etch primer and black epoxy paint (Pic 1, below)
4. Worked out the difference between the two spoke types (Pic 3, below)
5. Put the "B" spokes on the outside of the hub, ie poked them through the holes from the inside of the hub to the outside (see pic 3&4, below. Note that Pic 4 is to show arrangement of the "B" spokes only, I put all spokes on the hub before lacing any of them)
6. Put the "A" spokes on the inside of the hub, ie poked them through the holes from the outside of the hub to the inside (pics 3&5, below Note that Pic 5 is to show arrangement of the "A" & "B" spokes only, I put all spokes on the hub before lacing any of them)
7. When all the spokes were on the hub,(see Pic 6, below) I sat the hub on a table and sat the rim over it and loosely arranged the spokes. Then, laced the A spokes on the speedo side hub to the rim and put the spoke nipples on a couple of turns. Then did the B spokes for the speedo side of the hub, Turn the wheel over, do the "A" spokes for the brake disc side, then the "B" spokes for the brake disc side , again putting the nipples on a couple of turns.. So, all spokes now laced up (see Pic 7, below)
8. Made a truing jig out of an old pair of forks bolted to a work bench. Put the wheel the jig (see Pic
9. Went round all nipples taking one off at a time, put a bit of oil on the female nipple thread and a bit of copper grease on the rim nipple seat. Then put the nipple back on and tightened it 10 turns with a cross head screwdriver. Worked round the wheel until all spokes / nipples oiled, greased and tightened 10 turns.
10. Used a dial gauge and spoke wrench (see Pic 9 & 10) to get the wheel true to 0.2mm vertical, then 0.2mm horizontal, then checked vertical again. .....Always starting at biggest high and low points and tightening spokes a turn or so at these points and tightening adjacent spokes half a turn. This was fairly easy, taking about an hour or so to get trued up. (note that its impossible to get the rim true to this degree at the point where the rim weld is)
11. Job Done
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rest of the pics...
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Good job, looks like you did it the same as me and mine had a big blip were the rim is welded as well.
Some guy on the American forum said you should put the DTi on the inner surface of the rim but i did
it the same as you. Quite satisfying doing your first wheel build.
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Kendo .. you are KHD on revcounter ?? ... your wheel build was my inspiration to give it a go 8)
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Rear wheel build completed today, all went fine after having had the front wheel job to hone the skills. Only buggeration was that I'd polished up a brake plate that I had lying around ... one that doesnt fit. See first photo, anyone know what model its from ... 750/4 ??
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and the rear wheel build photos....
1. Wheel in original state
2. Polished hub, new spokes (had these kicking around for the past 14 years, waiting to get done ;) ) and new DID chrome rim
3. "A" type spokes laced up
4. The truing jig .... swinging arm clamped in a vice with dial guage stuck onto swinging arm
5. The finished wheel, trued to 0.15mm horizontal & vertical
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Next up is getting the dual disks set up. Any opinions out there on the best place to buy cobalt drills to drill the discs with and a supplier of longer stainless disc bolts (120mm ?)
(laterz, for my pain and agony in setting up my dual discs see my seperate thread at http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=5571.msg27566;topicseen#new )
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brake plate looks like a later 550 k3 type
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brake plate looks like a later 550 k3 type
that could be it .. I know my 500 has 550 front forks on, so every chance the back wheel is also 550. Only 550k3 parts diagram that I can find only shows the inner face of the brake plate, so still not 100% sure ...... Mick, that master cylinder and £20 is is the post
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Oil seals all look similar in pictures but it could be the one that fits inside the plate that bolts onto
the rear sprocket.
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Ewan i have parts books for all the 500 and 550s and none show a steel spacer like that. If it is a 550k3 rear wheel maybe it needed a special spacer to fit to the 500 swingarm? i will parcel up the bits for you tomorrow, PM your address, regards Mick
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this might clear up the back plate issue, my k3
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t6/mike070868/cover3touse.jpg)
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That's the one MIke , cheers.
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as far as i can see this is part no for my plate 41211-323-000
if you go to http://www.motogrid.com and search buy it ... it only comes up with 500 and 550
although this guy is selling this, slight diffference with the spline shaft ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB750-1970-K0-SOHC-Rear-Brake-Plate-/330639712147?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item4cfba99f93
sure one of other guys will confirm
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as far as i can see this is part no for my plate 41211-323-000
if you go to http://www.motogrid.com and search buy it ... it only comes up with 500 and 550
although this guy is selling this, slight diffference with the spline shaft ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB750-1970-K0-SOHC-Rear-Brake-Plate-/330639712147?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item4cfba99f93
sure one of other guys will confirm
Mike, the part number you mention is the cover plate for the rear sprocket, not the the rear brake plate :P
The difference between the 750K0 one one ebay and your (and my) K3 one is that the 750K0 one seems to be missing the wee wear indicator stub above the spline. .... possibly this was just a wee addition and otherwise both the brake plate on your K3 and the K0 are the same ?
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as far as i can see this is part no for my plate 41211-323-000
if you go to http://www.motogrid.com and search buy it ... it only comes up with 500 and 550
although this guy is selling this, slight diffference with the spline shaft ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB750-1970-K0-SOHC-Rear-Brake-Plate-/330639712147?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item4cfba99f93
sure one of other guys will confirm
Mike, the part number you mention is the cover plate for the rear sprocket, not the the rear brake plate :P
The difference between the 750K0 one one ebay and your (and my) K3 one is that the 750K0 one seems to be missing the wee wear indicator stub above the spline. .... possibly this was just a wee addition and otherwise both the brake plate on your K3 and the K0 are the same ?
Had a gander at that site (which is very useful :) ) .... the brake plate fits all of the follwoing:
CB550F A (77) MOTORCYCLE, JPN, VIN# CB550F-2100001 TO CB550F-2114871
CB550K A (77) MOTORCYCLE, JPN, VIN# CB550K-2000007 TO CB550K-2015308
CB550K A (78) MOTORCYCLE, JPN, VIN# CB550K-2100001 TO CB550K-2122082
CB750A A (77) MOTORCYCLE, JPN, VIN# CB750A-7100001 TO CB750A-7110560
CB750K A (77) MOTORCYCLE, JPN, VIN# CB750-2700009 TO CB750-2729534
CB750K A (78) MOTORCYCLE, JPN, VIN# CB750-2800001
part number is : 43100-393-781
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bryan j has mentioned this site
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Be carefull of using stainless for high stress or mission critiacl areas like brakes, it's not nessisarily that strong and I'd be after high tensile steel or getting bolts from someone who sells parts specifically for this job. Mot stainless is A2 grade and not up to the job for disk holding. Phill Denton engineering are the only firm I can think of who I'd go to for shiny bolts for this job. That said I don't do shiny
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Be carefull of using stainless for high stress or mission critiacl areas like brakes, it's not nessisarily that strong and I'd be after high tensile steel or getting bolts from someone who sells parts specifically for this job. Mot stainless is A2 grade and not up to the job for disk holding. Phill Denton engineering are the only firm I can think of who I'd go to for shiny bolts for this job. That said I don't do shiny
cheers for the heads up on that one ... I had it the the back of my mind that normal stainless bolts werent the ones for the job. Tried Phil D a while ago I think , but they dont have the neccsary bolt sizes as stock, would need to do a one off. Anyway, got a hold off 6 GL1000 disc bolts (112mm long) from DSS the other day... well pricey at £22 inc vat and delivery. Hoping they'll do the job. I was going to order new nuts to fit as well, but fell over at the price of those --- £3.25 each +VAT & delivery
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Be carefull of using stainless for high stress or mission critiacl areas like brakes, it's not nessisarily that strong and I'd be after high tensile steel or getting bolts from someone who sells parts specifically for this job. Mot stainless is A2 grade and not up to the job for disk holding. Phill Denton engineering are the only firm I can think of who I'd go to for shiny bolts for this job. That said I don't do shiny
cheers for the heads up on that one ... I had it the the back of my mind that normal stainless bolts werent the ones for the job. Tried Phil D a while ago I think , but they dont have the neccsary bolt sizes as stock, would need to do a one off. Anyway, got a hold off 6 GL1000 disc bolts (112mm long) from DSS the other day... well pricey at £22 inc vat and delivery. Hoping they'll do the job. I was going to order new nuts to fit as well, but fell over at the price of those --- £3.25 each +VAT & delivery
just opened my DSS parcel, they only had 4 GL1000 disc bolts in stock.... anyone could a couple (112mm long ), part no. 90122-371-000 ?
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Mathew is spot on to point out that care must be taken using stainless bolts. A2 316 stainless is Ok for engine covers but A4 should be used if replacing 8.8 tensile steel bolts. I've seen lads with shaft drive bikes (XS1100 to be specific) change out the bevel drive 12.9 tensile bolts for stainless, not good!!!
Can I also say that the application, as in how the bolts are used matters, which leads to disc bolts, coz disc bolts are in shear stress they ain't as critcal as bevel drive end caps which are in tensile stress, the disc bolts would have to be guillotined by the disc and ali hub to break and this wouldn't happen before your tyre would break grip, by a looooooooooooooong way.
I have A2 stainless M8 button head screws holding my discs on my XS1100 wheel (avatar bike) with different twin piston calipers fitted without any problems.
Another one to watch for is using stainless nuts and bolts, try to use A2 bolts with A4 nuts to avoid galling and use copperslip. Similar stainless fasteners will gall very easily. Clicky (http://www.estainlesssteel.com/gallingofstainless.html)
Tom (time served Toolmaker for 18 years, now working as Mech Fitter in pharmaceutical industry, looooots of stainless ;))
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Be carefull of using stainless for high stress or mission critiacl areas like brakes, it's not nessisarily that strong and I'd be after high tensile steel or getting bolts from someone who sells parts specifically for this job. Mot stainless is A2 grade and not up to the job for disk holding. Phill Denton engineering are the only firm I can think of who I'd go to for shiny bolts for this job. That said I don't do shiny
cheers for the heads up on that one ... I had it the the back of my mind that normal stainless bolts werent the ones for the job. Tried Phil D a while ago I think , but they dont have the neccsary bolt sizes as stock, would need to do a one off. Anyway, got a hold off 6 GL1000 disc bolts (112mm long) from DSS the other day... well pricey at £22 inc vat and delivery. Hoping they'll do the job. I was going to order new nuts to fit as well, but fell over at the price of those --- £3.25 each +VAT & delivery
just opened my DSS parcel, they only had 4 GL1000 disc bolts in stock.... anyone could a couple (112mm long ), part no. 90122-371-000 ?
sorted, manged to source 6 decent 2nd hand ones, with nuts from this guy in Glasgow: http://www.wingovations.com/
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Well explained Tomb and valid knowledge for anyone modifying stuff.
I look at some special built bikes and wince at some of the load paths created.
Most high stress stuff makes use of rolled threads as compared to cut stuff as well, many don't take this into account either.
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It's been a wee while ....... drilled the two brake discs today. Next up is fitting the double calipers
laterz ...See my seperate post at http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=5571.msg27566#msg27566 for the pain and agony of setting up my dual discs
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It's been a wee while ....... drilled the two brake discs today. Next up is fitting the double calipers
Here's what I needed to do it:
1. Roll of wall lining paper (£2.99) for drawing templates on (one tempate need for left hand disc and one for the right hand side one)
2. Prototractor (99p) , compass (99p), 12 inch rule & pencil for drawing out the templates
3. bit of parcel tape to stick the templates on the reverse side of the discs.
4. Centre punch to mark the discs for drilling before removing the temapltes
5. On single 8mm 5% cobalt drill for all 144 holes. (£4.85). One 12.4mm countersink bit (£9.99)
6. Bottle of cutting fluid (£8.99)
7. 2nd hand pillar drill picked up for £30 at a car boot sale
What I did:
1. put the lining paper over the disc and used a pencil to mark the circumference
2. found the centre of the circle on the paper using the compass.
3. marked out 24 sudivisions of the circle
4. Used the compass to scribe arcs and circles on the template to get the hole positions
5. Stuck the template on the reverse side of the disc using parcel tape
6. Used a centre punch to mark the positions of the holes through the paper onto the disc
7. Took the templates off the discs
7. Used a single 8mm 5% cobalt drill to drill all 144 holes in both discs. Pillar drill set at lowest speed (540rpm) and used plenty cutting fluid, making a single pass for each hole using even and constant pressure (ie no reversing back out part way through)... if its going right you get lovely spirals of swarf coming of, as in pic below
8. Gave each hole a light countersink on each side.
9. Job done.
laterz ...See my seperate post at http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=5571.msg27566#msg27566 for the pain and agony of setting up my dual discs
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ooooooh, I'm so pleased with my dual discs and shiny new wheel
See my seperate post at http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=5571.msg27566#msg27566 for the pain and agony of setting up my dual discs
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ooooooh, I'm so pleased with my dual discs and shiny new wheel
My missus thinks I'm a sad git getting all excited over shiny new bits for my bikes ;D ;D ;D ;D
Looks well Ewan
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could be worse Tomb, you could could be peeing yer pants over a new microwave ;D
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Bit the bullet last night ... chopped the rear end of the frame and cut off the side panel and battery tray mountings fro the frame mid section.....it's no return now. Now need to weld the hoop on, make a flat plate to go on top of the hoop and cut out the rear section of the seat base to make space for the battery and electrics under the seat hump.
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This will be a year round road going bike, so I need a rear mudguard to stop all the road crap from firing strtaight at my air intake. Bought a 6 inch steel universal job to cut and fit .... dont like it now, it's tooo wide and ugly. See photo 1, the blue cloth covers the part I had intended to chop off. Second photo shows and alternative solution using the chrome part of the stock rear mudguard. This would need a bit of cutting & modification too. Its not much prettier that the 6 inch steel job (photo 2). Plan C is to buy a 5 inch universal stainless mudguard and cut it. (later ... plan C was the end result.. see phots in later posts)
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I need a rear light. Originally I was going to build one into the back of the seat unit. Now I quite fancy putting a LED combination rear light/brake light/ indicator strip onto the rear of the hoop under the seat. So I'm now looking looking for a flexible LED combo strip ... anyone got any info on UK suppliers ? , preferbaly a plug and play unit that is 12v ready and dosent need any additional electrical fittings. OR .... plan C is to cut out a section of the hoop, fit lights inside the hoop and then find some sort of sultion to make a lens to replace the cut out section of the hoop... probably a bit ambitious for me, but if anyone has ideas on how that could be acheived, I'd be keen to hear. Photo of rear end and side view of the bike as it is this morning attached
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or maybe something like this mock up.... (laterz .. found something that will do as the mock up pictures show.. ..ending up getting an Z Flex LED flexible array from radiantz in USA, which took like months to arrive because of a #@%$ up as UK customs , cost a fortune after shipping charges, cuty and some obscure cahreg from shippers to deal with custom, see picture below.. its like that without the indicator ends. Also got a wee bit of circuit from radiantz so that it is a combined raer light / barke light see http://www.radiantz.com/index1.html?c6.html&1. God knows if its legal. If push comes to shove and its not leagal I'll put something esle on it for its MOT)
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Rear frame hoop ands battery/electrics tray welded up, with gussets behind top shock mountings to mount indicators on
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took the head off to polish it and noticed one of the bolts was snapped, sheared of flush at barrell surface , so barrells had to come off to weld a nut to the broken stud , so good time to paint the engine . Broke a bloody piston ring reassembling the engine = £80 for 4 new ring sets, new gasket set = £40 = £120 for the sake of a broken bloody bolt (dont tell the wife) Good news was that I dropped a bit of the piston ring down the barrell into the crank case but managed to fish it back out with a telescopic magnet thingy , #@%$ was I happy that I didnt have to split the crankacse to fin it ;D ;D.
Engine all polished an painted and now back in the bike ready to start a complete rewire job. Its 40 years to the day come Jan 1st next year since the bike was registered, so thats become the target date for completion of the cafe racer conversion / restoration. Still to do : rewire, powder coat frame, refine dual disc set up, find some rear sets, rechrome the cut down front and rear mudguards.
Got the engine back in the frame today and put togeather a mock up of the end result. Keeping the old tank the way it is for a bit of patina
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ordered a set of avon road runners (120/90 rear and 100/90 front) for the shiney new rims today , some tarozzi rearests to hang off the passenger footpegs, all the wiring bits and pieces and a motobatt sealed unit battery. Was going to get a new camchain tensioner, chain and sprocket ... but the wallet cannae stretch to 220 euros that CMSNL want right now
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new rubber, shame the boys in the shop put the front one on the wrong way round :-\
next .. back to the tyre shop then ... the scary wiring loom renewal
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Wiring Loom Renewal Resources:
Wire, Bullet Connectors etc Suppiers:
http://kojaycat.co.uk/
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/home/homepage.php
http://www.sgmotorsport.co.uk/
http://stores.ebay.com/Atop-Authentic-Auction/PET-Expandable-Sleeving-/_i.html?_fsub=2578659015&_sid=879188535&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
500 four Wiring Diagrams;
http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/wiring500.html
http://kojaycat.co.uk/epages/950000457.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/950000457/Categories/Motorcycle_Wiring_Diagrams (this ones well worth the £15 it costs)
Clymer one, see picture below
Generic Wiring Diagrams
http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/simple_wiring_diagram/simple_wiring_diagram.html
http://www.ripper1.com/tech/wiring/wiring2.jpg
http://www.ripper1.com/tech/wiring/wiring1.jpg
How To Guides and Technical Stuff etc
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5432.0;attach=4217;image
Nice simple one on how to use tools and fix connectors etc
http://www.colorado.edu/physics/EducationIssues/podolefsky/electric_motorcycle_howto_wiring.html
The John Partridge one at:
http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/229345-idiots-guide-to-making-your-own-motorcycle-wiring-harness.html
Honda Motorcycle Electrics Manual:
http://minus.com/lbtlR5awJwSHPy
In General ~ but not always !
A RED wire is permanently live (+ve), ie 'hot wired' to the battery.
A BLACK wire is switched live, ie only +ve when you turn the ignition on.
A GREEN wire is permanently grounded (-ve). Ie at all times connected to the -ve terminal of the battery, via the frame.
A LIGHT GREEN wire is switched earth, ie only connected to the frame when you press the horn button.
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old loom a bit knackered and burnt at the edges;
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tools:
crimper £9 from VWP
Wire stripper / crimper £8 from Aldi ::)
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stripping wire
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crimping
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crimped
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+ heat shrink sleeve
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+ plastic cover ... should be pretty secure now
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bodged battery holder for under the seat hump (cheers Mick :P)
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new headlamp spaghetti and idiot lights
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Halfords Screen Trim used for tank trim (later .. Halfords are a rip off, you can get the same stuff for half the price off ebay)
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bit of a funny one when refining the dual discs set up today. The caliper arm for the additional disc on the right hand (speedo drive Side) was perfectly aligned with the disc without any need to mess around contrary to al expectation (photo one) (laterz... no thats wrong, See my seperate post at http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=5571.msg27566#msg27566 for the pain and agony of setting up my dual discs )but the original set up on the left hand side was misaligned (second photo) and had to be brought into line by putting some washers in between the caliper arm an the fork.... although thinking about it now maybe the mudgaurd mounting bracket is supposed to go between the caliper arm and the fork leg. Just now I've got the caliper arm directy onto the foork with the mudguard bracket on top of the caliper arm.
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so , thats it for now. Stuck the tank and seat back on and sat with a bottle of beer and a fag an just looked at it for a while....
Still to do ... finish the electrics, get a hold of longer rear shocks, buy some rearests, powder coat the frame and sort out the rear light / number plate set up
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New custom wiring loom all finished. Amazingly everything worked first time except the starter button which needed grounding to the frame. .. and the crappy mini indicators that I got from HALFORDS, which blew the fuse and screwed the relay. Old indicators still working fine , so there must be a fault in the halfords ones, they have some bad reviews. Frame all stripped again ready to go and get powder coated. New fork seals arrived. Cant get new rear shocks from Hagon till end of September and Tarozzi are on holiday till Sept , so rearsets are on hold too. So near to finishing now ;)
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Removed the rear shocker bushes from the swing arm this morning ... bit stubborn !. Hammer and WD 40 got me nowhere
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after searching the forums , I found the answer . 2 sockets and a vice. One socket the same diameter as the outer sleeve on the bush and another much bigger socket that the first one will fit inside. First I gave the bush a good balst with a blow gun, then ....Place one socket each side of the bush. Place in vice and tighten vice .... the bushes were so damn immovable that I had to put a pieve of pipe on the vice handle to get enough force to get the bushes out .... now got a vice with a nicely curved handle ;)
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didnt go quite so smoothly with the second bush. The smaller socket I was using ended up being slightly smaller than the outer bush sleeve and I overdid it with the blow torch and burnt the rubber out . End result of the vice job was that just the inner sleeve and the rubber came out leaving the outer sleeve embedded in the swinging arm. So ... had to (very carefully) cut the sleeve length wise top and bottom with a hacksaw balde to get it out as I didnt have a scocket of exactly the right size.
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Shimmed up the brake capliper arms so that the calipers are in line with the discs. The right hand side was fine without modification. On the left hand side I needed to use three washer on the top front caliper bolt , 2 washers on the top rear bolt and 2 washers on the bottom bolt. Looking at the pictures the mudguard stay looks a bit odd ... have I got in positioned correctly with the top caliper arm brackets ? See my sepeate post at http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=5571.msg27566#msg27566 for the pain and agony of setting up my dual discs
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Now I know why the forks were replaced with 550 ones ... bent steering stem = front end crash in the past. . A bit disconcerting , hope whoever was riding at the time made it through it without too many injuries. I can nick the one off the 500 basket case that is / was / might be restored in the future ... but maybe I'll just carry on with the bent one ... it never appeared to affect performance over the past 17 years :-\
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Something wrong there Ewan, the standard caliper arm should NOT under any circumstances need shimming.
yeah , thats what I thought ... well odd (job) :) :) . just put it down to fact that it has 550 forks and I knew that the previous owner had been planning dual discs in days of ancient ... there is also the fact that I rebuilt the front wheel. I'll have a better investigation when i get it back from the powder coaters.. laterz ...See my seperate post at http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=5571.msg27566#msg27566 for the pain and agony of setting up my dual discs You all have me convinced on replacing the steering stem ::)
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hmm, so its 550K3 forks that are on it , although the springs seem over long at 470mm. Just need to get the flippin oil seals out now, dremel cutting discs ordered
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got the buggers !!! :D ... they wouldnt budge with flat head screwdriver. So, applied a bit of blowtorch and then used a try lever. Tyre lever less likely than a screwdriver to score the mating surface anyway. Hope I've put the new ones in the right way up
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:'( That looks upside down mate...
The side with the visible spring goes down (the flat surface goes up)
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:'( That looks upside down mate...
The side with the visible spring goes down (the flat surface goes up)
:) :) ..... both sides had visible springs and both springs are the same diameter :-\... Both sides also have grooves in them running pralle to the circumference, although one one side the groove is much deeper. I've put the side with the deepest groove facing downwards, this side is also slightly thicker in diamter (see photos 1 & 3). The side with the shallower groove also has text markings, i've put this side facing up the way. See photo 2).
What do you reckon ?, I'll hang fire before putting new oil in.
Its great to know thet there are folks out there looking over my shoulder and keeping me on the right track :P
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Top pic is bottom of seal, pics 2 is the side you should see when installed.
off to put the oil in then :) ... then better pay wifey some attention for a couple of days :-*
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Found this in an old thread "The post by Spitfire shows the capacity as 160cc which in my Clymer manual says should be 10W30 for the CB550K0,K1,K2 but the K3 forks were revised and I think that for them it should 190cc and ATF."" Can anyone confirm what the oil capacity of the K3 forks is ?
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OK, I have all the genuine Hona workshop manuals and the way they work is if the spec has changed it is in the details if not you keep working your way back on models till you find the spec you want.
Doing that there is no change to fork oil after the CB550F and that states 165-170cc of atf for a stripped and completely dry fork
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cheers Bryan .... there's contraditions all over the place. The shop manuals appear consistent at 165cc. , Haynes says 160cc , Clymer says 190cc ..... I'll go with 165cc then :)
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Am I happy I took the wife out to the pub for a meal tonight for neglecting her over this week ? Well yep, too right. Bumped into Jim the bike who sorted me out with getting the tapered roller bearing seats out of the headstock. Jim nipped across the road to his house and came back with a right nifty wee tool for getting them out. Back from pub, in the shed and 10 mins later both seats were out :) :) :) :) . Frame ready to take to Triple S in Bingley for powder coating now ... small step for mankind, great leap for me ... no need to piss about with dremels and cutting discs. Procedure documented below:
Photo 1: Bearing seat in top of headstock
Photo 2: Nifty wee bearing seat removal tool
Photo 3: Tool in place on top of headstock
Photo 4: Drift inserted from bottom of headstock
Photo 5: Couple of whacks on the drift with a rubber mallet and the bearing seat is out
Repeated all this at the other end to get the bottom seat out ... bit more tricky as this seat's diameter was about the same as the headstock inner diameter and was flush into the shoulder, so next to nothing for the tool to grab onto. Expanded the tool as much as possible and the first couple of thumps on the drift moved it enough through friction to get a gap between the seat and the shoulder it sits in for the tool to get a better grab on it. Easy peasy when you know a man who knows how and has a tool to hand. Well chuffed I am.
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Forks all done and dusted: new oil seals, new oil seal retaining clips, new dust covers , 165cc of 15w fork oil in each, repolished. That'll be me for a while till I can get hold of a steering lock key so that I can get the steering lock out ready for frame, swing arm, stand and lower triple T powder coated. Many many thanks to all who have provided advice and comment so far
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After much gnashing of teeth my Dual Disc calipers all set up now , 0.06 inch clearance between both fixed pads and their discs and a freely rotating wheel. This was the most trying part of the build I have done so far .. as I didn't originally realise that the caliper arms I have were not identical, that the mudguard bracket is non standard and that I have a narrow 500 hub on 550 forks.
The right hand side needed no modifications such as shims or filing ... just the simple addition of a caliper arm, a caliper pin, a caliper pin bracket and a caliper. On this side the mudguard bracket is sandwiched between the caliper pivot pin bracket and the fork. All that was need was a few washers on the spring adjuster screw to give the spring some compression (see photo)
On the left hand side all that was needed was to file down the leading edge of the pivot pin bracket.
... not that this reflects the fact that it took me all day trying different combinations of pivot arms, pivot pin brackets and mudguard bracket placement. Full agony is exposed in my other thread at :
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=5571.msg27634#msg27634
Thanks go to BryanJ and Oddjob for sharing the pain
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.. and just as I finished getting my dual discs set up right a man in a van arrived with my new Hagon rear shocks. These are a special build at 361mm between centres (standard are 315mm) , needed longer ones as clearnace at the back wheel has reduced due to insertion of the plate in the rear hoop to hold the battery and electrics .
Later edit; Not sure what effect this will have on the bike's geometery and in particular on the front end rake and trail, but will calculate the effects once I have the bike togeather and see if I need to do any front end mods (should have done this before I took it to bits again ... but didnt realise the potential issue) One thing in my favour is that the bent sterring stem woul have recuced rake and trail , so running with a straight triple T and longer rear shocks might make me end up in the same place as when running with the bent triple T and stancard rear shocks .. we'll see)
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Do they charge more for special build shocks?
pete
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Model number 31012CSS , Custom Shocks. I paid £195 delivered Pete, got them from Bike Revival at http://www.bike-revival.co.uk/page1.html I think was an extra £15 for the custom build
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having cleaned the frame ready for powder coating I found some cracks and corrosion under one of the rear footrest mounts. Also the cafe bars hit the tank on full lock, so thinking that the steering stop on the lower head stock needs to be a bit wider
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Now not sure what effect the longer rear shocks will have will have on the bike's geometery and in particular on the front end rake and trail and thus handling. Folk on the US site have been raising concerns about effect on handling and particularly about the potential for rear end twithches and tank slappers.
I will now calculate the effects on the rake & trail once I have the bike togeather and see if I need to do any front end mods (should have done this before I took it to bits again ... but didnt realise the potential issue)
One thing in my favour is that the bent steering stem that has been on the bike for at least 17 years would have reduced rake and trail. I now have a new and straight sterring stem, so running with this and longer rear shocks might make me end up in the same place as when running with the bent triple T and standard rear shocks .. we'll see)
Alternative solutions posed if effect on trail is significant are:
a) rework the bike to remove the battery tray from the rear hoop to allow more clearance for the tyre . This would mean undoing the frame mods and electrical work already done ... not keen on that.
b) get longer frnt fork stanchions to counterbalance the lifted rear end
c) get a triple T / top yolk set with a greater offset than the standard to counteract the shortening effect of longer rear shocks on the rake an trail
d) get a steering damper
Views welcome !
Must get to bed ... been up all night reading about bike geometry, trail and rake which was all new to me :o
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Put everything back on the frame today to compare the original front end rake and trail with the rake and trail impacts of the new longer rear shocks. I was intending just to put the essentials back on to do this, but ended up putting everything back on .... as I'm swithering between black and silver for the frame. A few pics to follow
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With the old shocks and the old bent steering stem. First in sliver frame , then in black frame. Gone off the silver , think I'll stick with black
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new longer rear shocks in black frame and silver frame
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dont like the rear mudguard anymore ....
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some random photos
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I'd get a few miles in and see if things need to be altered, a diffrent steering stem / tripple tree arrangement could then be looked at or longer forks. In the 70's there were extenders that screwed into the top of the forks to make them longer but I think that would be pants as a long term solution, might be worth trying if a cheap set were to be found to see if they helped if the geometry proved problematical. I'd try it as is as often forseen problems fail to materialise - I have had all manner of advise about the way my 500/4 sidecar wouldn't handle at all well, but I like the thing as it is and havn't even re attatched the steering damper when it broke a mounting.
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I'd get a few miles in and see if things need to be altered, a diffrent steering stem / tripple tree arrangement could then be looked at or longer forks. In the 70's there were extenders that screwed into the top of the forks to make them longer but I think that would be pants as a long term solution, might be worth trying if a cheap set were to be found to see if they helped if the geometry proved problematical. I'd try it as is as often forseen problems fail to materialise - I have had all manner of advise about the way my 500/4 sidecar wouldn't handle at all well, but I like the thing as it is and havn't even re attatched the steering damper when it broke a mounting.
cheers for that , really heartening ... unlike the state to which I'm being pulled apart across the pond ;). I quite fancy doing all the measurements for working out rake & trail stuff anyway... as a learning experience if nowt else . One day of holidays left to play before its back to grindstone for a while
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so .. the speedo cable rubs against the new disc. High tech fencing wire speedo wire restraint fabiricated and installed
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I wish you would stop remining me of all the problems i had mate
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I wish you would stop remining me of all the problems i had mate
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. ???
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I do know of a "fitter" in a big print works whose tool kit consisted of 4 different hammers and 6 different chisels
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So today I played about with taking trail and rake measurements . I tried various combinations of rear shocks and steering stems:
a) standard length rear shocks (315mm between mounting hole centres) + bent steering stem
b) standard length rear shocks + good steering stem
c) new longer shocks (361mm between mounting hole centres) + good steering stem
Diagram of what I was measuring is attached, along with raw results
Some key points:
1. All measured rakes were substantially below the stock rake of 26 degrees that is quoted in the shop manual. I calculated mine with someone sitting on the bike and hanging a plumb from the top of the fork (line Y in the diagram) and then measuring the perpindicular distance from the plumb line to the centre of the axle (line X). Length X divided by length Y then gives the tangent of the rake angle and the rake angle can be derived from that. In looking closer at the frame today it has some slight curvature in the front rails .. bowing in by about 2mm half way down on both sides. This must be another artefact of its front ender, as with the bent steering stem. This bowing of the rails is presumably reducing the rake angle ?.
2. The longest trail was found using the bent steering stem despite this set up having the least rake. Presumably this bent stem has the effect of reducing the triple T offset , such that the trail is lengthened rather than shortened that would be expected from the lower rake figure?
3. All measured trails appear to be within an accepatable range and exceed that of the CB350 (85mm according to Clymer). The lowest figure (with the new shocks on) is comparable to some of the CB750 models (94mm?)... all subject to possible marg ins of errorin my methodolgy of course.
I also had a play with RB racing's rake and trail calculator at:
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/advchoppercalc.html
I couldn't get the calculator to reproduce Hondas stock rake figure by entering standard dimensions for the 500 four,,.. so maybe it doesn't work for Honda SOHCs ? ... but what did seem consistent is that for a change of one degree in rake a change of about 6mm in trail resulted. This is roughly in line with results for the 400/four at : http://www.denoonsp.com/user/image/v3-issue1.pdf. In this article 0.4 degree of rake change results in 2.2mm of change in trail... so 1 degree rake = 5.5mm trail. This is consistent with what happened when I changed the shocks, I got 1 degree of change in rake and 5mm of change in trail. The 440/four article also notes that a 6.25mm increase in rear shocks procuded 0.4 degree reduction in rake. I've increased my rear fork length by 46mm, so if the 400 four figures can be extrapolated this would result in a change of 3 degrees in rake and 15.5mm of trail. I didn't get this level of change in rake or trail when changing from standard to longer shocks , mine are more like 1 degree of rake and 5mm in trail.
If 1 degree of rake change = 5.5 mm of trail change , then my measured rake of 23 degrees with the new shocks should have procuded a trail reduction of 15.5mm against the stock figure of 102.5mm .. but I only get about half that.
So what does all that tell me ? .... that the tolerance in my measurements were too wide such that my figures are unrelaible , or just that that I should follow the advice in mathewmosse's post .. get the bloody thing on the road with the longer shocks and see how it feels ...: ;D
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Heres how I went about measuring the trail with ref to attached photos
1. Got a broom handle and cut slots in it to accodate various bits of the bike...so that it would sit parallel to the headstock / forks . First photo shows the broom handle with cut outs
2. Second photo shows broom handle sitting on bike .. orientated to extend the line of the headstock down to the ground. The broom handle is lined up with the centre line of the headstock and parallel with the stanchions
3. Third photo shows the plumb line hanging from the centre of the axle and the bottom of the broom handle when orientated as described at point 2. Trail is then the distance between the bottom of the plumb line and the bottom of the broom handle.
The large washer hanging on a string in the third photo is used to measure the rake angle as shown in the diagram in the previous post.
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you are working hard Ewan,
I suggest you get it on the road,run it for a while,get used to the feel.bed the tyres and brakes in ,
then explore the handling,
I guess you have some great bike roads around you,
go and have some fun
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you are working hard Ewan,
I suggest you get it on the road,run it for a while,get used to the feel.bed the tyres and brakes in ,
then explore the handling,
I guess you have some great bike roads around you,
go and have some fun
you're right of course John ... but intrigue & curiosity meant I spent some more time on rake and trail today. I decided I wasnt happy with the broom handle .. to much scope for variation in the figures so made a telesopic version which was then fixed to the tripe T in line with ,and parallel to, the headstock. Much more rigid and stable. Pics 1 to 3 below show this. The 4th photo shows how I measured the sides of a right angled traingle to calculate the rake. So .. after much repeated measuring and using three different trail and rake calculators .... I've got some averages of averages:
Old shocks with straight triple T : Trail = 97.9mm (3.9 inches) Rake = 23.8 degrees
New longer shocks with straight triple T : Trail = 90.5mm (3.6 inches) Rake = 22.7 degrees
So still showing a one degree reduction in rake with the new shocks and now a 7.4mm (0.3 inch) reduction in trail. I think I'll get a steering damper to be of the safe side.
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another (vastly improved, simpler and more accurate) method of finding out what the trail is ...thanks to turbo guzzi and johno on the US site's high performance & racing forum
Step 1. find out what the rake angle is by sitting a bubble protractor / digital protractor / inclinometer against the fork tubes , OR by taking a high definition photo from a long distance, camera at mid bike height, importing it into a cad or vector graphic program and anlalyisng it. .
Step 2. Use my new calculator ... there's a screenshot of it attached to this reply below the pictures and a downloadable version attached to my next reply.
Note .. this only works if the triple T has zero rake itself and neither it nor the forks are bent in any way
Also for a 500 four a one degree change in rake translates to a quarter inch change in trail ... so if using a bubble protractor it needs to be able to measure to say within 0.5 degrees and the bike will need to be on a perfectly level surface
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I've added .xls and .xlsx file types to the "allowed" list Ewan. Nobody has ever tried it before!
Steve
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I've added .xls and .xlsx file types to the "allowed" list Ewan. Nobody has ever tried it before!
Steve
cheers Steve , calculator link at foot of this reply
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Have had it confirmed that stock fork offset is 45mm
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Another rake / trail calculation. (Edit .. this was with original rear shocks on. The photo says "new shocks" top left, but that was a mistake !)This time I took some photos of the bike. First placing the bike on a plank of wood. Then printed out the photos and drew a centre line on the fork and using the plank as the horizontal drew a line along its edge. Then I used a decent protractor to measure the castor angle (angle A in the attached photo). Out of four different photos (2 of each side) the castor angle was consistently between 65 and 66 degrees giving a rake angle (R on attcahed photo) of 24 to 25 degrees and a calculated trail of 93.2 to 99.5mm ...... a much more acceptable result that using the crude pole measuring methods above. Just waiting for a mate to loan me an inclinometer to measure the angle of the forks to the horizontal now to see how that compares. .... . Just need to to put the new rear shocks on and use the photo/protractor method to see how the standard shock result compares with the longer rear shock result .. and repeat using the inclinometer method.
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Here here oddjob,lifes too short and so is the summer
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ye cannae hurray a murray ... not planning to be on the road till 2014 :P
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Just a quick question Ewan.
Early in the thread you mentioned Morris Minor hubs? Are there Minor bits that go onto a 550?
Cheers,
Owen
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The 550 rear brake lining can crack up sometimes giving a nasty feeling brake and need for a new hub, or if you have a lathe then you machine out the cracked steel liner and insert a mini or morris minor drum - takes a wee while and some care but I've done it on my 500/4 sidecar outfit and that has seen quite a lot of milage since. I think that will be where morris minor bits will have come into it.
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The 550 rear brake lining can crack up sometimes giving a nasty feeling brake and need for a new hub, or if you have a lathe then you machine out the cracked steel liner and insert a mini or morris minor drum - takes a wee while and some care but I've done it on my 500/4 sidecar outfit and that has seen quite a lot of milage since. I think that will be where morris minor bits will have come into it.
yep !!
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Another gripping episode from my Rake & Trail measuring shenanigans. First off, I've modified reply #133 on the previous page .... it wasn't the new shocks that were on when I did that first manual protractor / photo method at all.. it was the old shocks. I realised that when I went out to the shed today to take some more photos of the various combinations of rear shocks and Triple Ts to apply the manual protractor method to. So ... I took photos with new shocks and old bent Triple T, new shocks new straight Triple T , old shocks and new Triple T and old shocks with old bent Triple T. Four photos of each combination. Results were inconsistent with variations of up to one and a half degrees for the rake calculations for any one configuration.
However the Digital Protractor ( A.K.A. the inclinometer) arrived today (see first picture below) and this really has given consistent results (see third picture below), ... it was absolutely consistent in the change effects that both the new shocks and changing the Triple T had on rake and trail and this gives me loads of confidence in the figures. So thats me done and dusted with rake and trail measuring you'll all be glad to know. Its been an education for me at least ::).
So, I now reckon (with confidence) that..
1. A one degree change in rake = a reduction in trail of more or less 6.5mm (quarter of an inch)
2. For every 10mm increase in rear shock length there is a 0.48 degree reduction in rake and a 3mm recuction in trail.
and with a bit of acceptable tolerance that..
3. With the new longer shocks I've got a rake of 23.5 degrees giving a calculated trail of 91mm (3.64 inches). Stock figures are 26 degrees rake and 102.5mm (4.1 inches) trail.
Also got hold of a bargain basement GSXR steering damper today... might be a wee bit on the short side for a stock 500, but as I'm putting 10mm extra on the steering stop so that the ace handdlebars dont bang off the tank I reckon it should do the job. Just having trouble locating a suitable frame clamp (29mm) for the damper, anyone got any ideas .. maybe best bet is just to use a 30mm one ?.
Next up then ...
- Stripping back to bare frame again and getting a wee bit of welding done to one of the passenger footpeg mounts and the steering stop
- Make up my mind whether I want the frame silver or gloss black, then getting it powder coated
- Ordering my rear sets now that the Italians are back at work
- Make up my mind if I want to drill some holes in the front sprocket engine casing
- Bit of alloy polishing refresh
- Stick it all back togeather
- Refine the rear light set up
And then we're ready to roll I hope.
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Yeah but yer got a moose loose aboot yer house :)
a perfect opportunity tae respond wae a "jings, crivens, help ma boab"
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Sidecar mounting clamp onto the frame for damper? bit heavy.... Fabricate something from tube cut open withh a hacksaw with drilled 'ears' added with weld.
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Sorted on the steering damper clamp front , got a 30mm one from Dennis Trollope Racing at http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Dennis-Trollope-Racing . He's quite a bit cheaper than others for the same clamp. Although the 500 frame measures 29mm in diameter, the 30mm clamp tightens on fine. Not too happy now with the GXSR damper though. On the good side it bolts straight into the hole on the bottom of the 500 lower yoke. On the down side it does not allow the steering to go full lock to lock, this isnt really a problem for me as I intend reducing the lock to lock distance to stop the ace handlebars hitting the tank anyway. What I'm less happy about is the height the GSXR damper needs to sit at ... it sits too high and spoils the lines of the tank (see photos) Going to order an NHK ODM 500 damper from Dennis Trollope instead now which should sit better.
GSXR Dimensions
Mid point to eye (extended) 150mm
Mid point to eye (closed) 85mm
Travel 70mm
Body Length 128mm
NHK ODM 500 Dimensions
Mid point to eye (extended) 227mm
Mid point to eye (closed) 141mm
Travel 85mm
Body Length 154mm
so .. if any one wants to buy a used GSXR damper , its yours for £25 + P&P
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Anyone ever tried these white wall topper things ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160781407385?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
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Sooner walk to London with a nail in my shoe that use those. URGH!!!!!!
;D ;D ;D .. think I was havin a momentary bout of madness
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Quite a bit of choice for proper whitewall tyres for 19" front ... but only thing I can find for 18" back are Cockers at (wait for it ) .... £250 to £300. No way ! I might be a poser , but thats a few ££ too far . List of all front and rear whitewalls I can find in the UK attached as a word doc.
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NHK ODM500 steering damper (as originally fitted to the Kawa Z1) in place. Much more pleased with this one, it sits much better than the GSXR one. At full right hand lock it just misses hitting the engine. Next up, a wee bit of welding on the frame and then off to the powder coater.
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Had to extend the steering stop by 10mm either side to stop the clubman bars banging off the tank.
[attach=4][attach=5]
Also, one of the rear peg mounts was corroded through and needed welding .
[attach=1]
Finally .... tarozzi rear sets have arrived :) These will be mounted on the rear passenger footpegs instead of using the tarozzi mounting bracket
[attach=2][attach=3]
...... so nearly there as ever. Just need to get powder coated and the front muguard rechromed. Bring it on Santa.
These new phot options are great Steve ;D ;D
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Ewan did you disside on a frame finish yet
Mick
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dissided to go borin black Mick ???
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Drilled and tapped both caliper arms today to add grease nipples. The nipples extend through the caliper arm body by about a millimetre so will need a wee washer added so that they dont rub on the pivot pin.
[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
Also helicoiled the caliper arm mounting bolt holes on one of the forktubes ... near disaster with one hole. The helicoil didnt see to go in right and the bolt was stiff to turn .... = sheared bolt. Managed to drill it and the helicoil out cleanly , retapped and rehelicoiled (phew)
Santa bought me an hour in a gyrocopter from http://www.chrisjonesgyroplanes.com/ instead of gettin me a powdercoating or chroming voucher. I cant complain tooooooooooooo much but if he thinks I'm giving him a hand in a reindeer free present run round the chimneys next year he's got another thing comin. Powdercoatin on hold till a few bills are paid
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Yeah I have to add a washer my my grease nipples as well Ewan, it would help to flatten down the area where the nipple goes as it helps seal it a little.
yeah , forgot about that bit oddjob. I'll get onto it
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Yeah I have to add a washer my my grease nipples as well Ewan, it would help to flatten down the area where the nipple goes as it helps seal it a little.
yeah , forgot about that bit oddjob. I'll get onto it
Rear of both caliper arms flattened off where grease nipples added (thanks for reminder oddjob). Modified washers also added under the grease nipples to prevent then from extending through the caliper arm body and and rubbing off the caliper arm pins
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no, not yet applied the grease gun yet OJ, as ever with this reconstruction its all theory till I sort out the powdercoatin an reassemble the meccano. Got some 90 degree nipples , but they were too big an ugly to the eye ???
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Dropped the frame, swingarm, botton yoke, rear brake stay, rear brake rod and engine mounts off at WTA Coatings, just outside annan, today ;D ;D ;D ;D
http://www.wtacoatings.co.uk/
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Having failed to find any UK / european suppliers of plugs to blank off the tacho drive hole in the rocker cover, I ordered a couple from america, both meant to be for 750's.
First one, $16 inc P&P from http://www.workingclasschoppers.com . This one is a bit on the loose side and doesnt have a groove for an o-ring. I've stuck on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=181299549879
[attach=1] [attach=2]
Next one from member 754 on the US site , this is a much snugger fit and has an o-ring groove. $20 delivered. I think he still has more available.
[attach=3] [attach=4]
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You could just remove the drive and fit a small flat plate over the hole using the single
bolt to hold it in place. Mine was like that when I bought it and works fine.
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You could just remove the drive and fit a small flat plate over the hole using the single
bolt to hold it in place. Mine was like that when I bought it and works fine.
Never thought of that Kendo... probs looks tidier too
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Got my bits back from powder coating today . £165 including a tiny bit of spot welding. Very happy with the job, the coaters blanked off all bearing surfaces, thread holes etc.
[attach=1] [attach=2] [attach=3]
Just need a few bits chromed now before putting it all back togeather.
[attach=4]
Cumbria Plating Services at Currock in Carlisle , who I've used in the past, are no longer doing chrome and I'm hearing bad reports on Cumbria Metal Finishings at Longtown Cumbria.
Anyone got any recommendations on a plater who will do via the post ?
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woooooof ......just got a quote for chroming by sending off some photos. £168 for the bits in the pic above. Am I a cheapskate or is that well over the odds ? Any views on nickel plating ?
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Bike looks great so far good work
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Hi,
Just across the river from me, 4 off 400/4 finned exhaust clamps, three assorted levers all in polished chrome, with 4 sets of exhaust collets in industrial chrome-£60 the lot and a brilliant job---Ken
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Hi,
Just across the river from me, 4 off 400/4 finned exhaust clamps, three assorted levers all in polished chrome, with 4 sets of exhaust collets in industrial chrome-£60 the lot and a brilliant job---Ken
sounds more like it kaja ... was that quality Chrome that OJ mentioned ?
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Hi Ewan,
Yes, that's the one, really helpful lads who know two wheels, do a lot of scooter stuff, the only fault I found with them is the need for a Satnav to find them, well hidden workshop!----Ken
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Hi Oddjob,
I will try to sort out a photo of the clamps, they have certainly a nice polish on them, I don't know off hand if that is a reflection of the original finish or the good work of the platers----Ken
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woooooof ......just got a quote for chroming by sending off some photos. £168 for the bits in the pic above. Am I a cheapskate or is that well over the odds ? Any views on nickel plating ?
Try these guys, there work looks very nice, check the gallery.
http://www.qualitychrome.co.uk/gallery.php?gallery=1
I was quoted £30 to rechrome a 500 brake pedal if that's any indication of price.
Quality Chrome quoting £172 + VAT + postage = £226
Home of Chrome = £168 including VAT and postage
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woooooof ......just got a quote for chroming by sending off some photos. £168 for the bits in the pic above. Am I a cheapskate or is that well over the odds ? Any views on nickel plating ?
Try these guys, there work looks very nice, check the gallery.
http://www.qualitychrome.co.uk/gallery.php?gallery=1
I was quoted £30 to rechrome a 500 brake pedal if that's any indication of price.
Quality Chrome quoting £172 + VAT + postage = £226
Home of Chrome = £168 including VAT and postage
Jackson Plating LTD= £132 inc VAT and return delivery (anyone used them before ?)
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Picked up chroming job from Cumbria Metal Finshers, proper triple coating. Seems like a decent job , despite previous comment, nd reasonably priced at £120 inc VAT. Im happy with what they've done http://cumbriametalfinishingltd.co.uk/
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So, now that the frame has been coated and I've got my chroming back, I'm ready for the final reassembly .... summer here we come 8)
Engine in the frame, new headstock bearings in, new swingarm shock mount bushes installed, swing arm on, Hagon 14 and a half inch rear shocks on.
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back wheel on, forks on, front wheel on. Chain clearance with longer rear shocks not leaving much room .. might need to get a swing arm protector
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Tarozzi rearsets on... not get enough "spring back" on the brake lever side using the stock honda spring, will need to think about that.
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Baffled Exhausts & NHK 500 ODM Steering Damper on. Close up photos of the steering damper show left and right full locks (bearing in mind the steering stop was extended 10cm either way)
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great work Ewan,
I shall be very interested when its finished and running,
good luck,and keep us informed !!!
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great work Ewan,
I shall be very interested when its finished and running,
good luck,and keep us informed !!!
Thanks John, I'm sure there will be a few niggles along the way that I might need to ask the oracle about ;) Today I realised that I'd left out one of oil o-rings that sits between the cyinder head and the barrels when I rebuilt the top end after I'd been in renewing the piston rings and fixing the cam chain adjuster... so had to strip the top end down again.... bugger
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Tonight I thought I'd check the carbs over before bench syncing them. Main jets are 110, pilots are 40 and needles are in the middle groove and joy of joys ............the wee bolt that joins the carb slide to the lifting mechanism on one of the carbs sheared >:( ..... more time needed that wisnae planned for ::)
... luckily I have a spare carb body I can canabalise if the worst comes to the worst :o
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Hi Ewan,
Your Cafe conversion is looking really good and a great thread too. I like the clubman bars you are using and i'm trying to source something similar. I have researched these to death and all the stock bars don't drop enough and the pull is too wide for the look i want!... Are these a special or off the shelf? cheers.
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Hi Ewan,
Your Cafe conversion is looking really good and a great thread too. I like the clubman bars you are using and i'm trying to source something similar. I have researched these to death and all the stock bars don't drop enough and the pull is too wide for the look i want!... Are these a special or off the shelf? cheers.
Hi Si, got them 2nd hand off ebay. They do clatter off the tank in the position I like, so had to extend the steering stop on the bottom yolk 10cm either way
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Hi Ewan,
You must have dropped lucky there. I have now bought two styles of clubman/cafe bars and I'm still not happy how they look. It would help greatly if you are able to measure yours for the width, rise, centre width and pullback of the bars, it may narrow my search for the perfect bars. Thanks in advance! Simon
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Hi Ewan the bikes looking good so far well done !!
Have you tried the kickstart to make sure it clears everything ?? I fitted the tarozzi rearsets to my 750 and it hits the brake pedal I think I might have to heat it and bend it so it clears, yours may be different though !!
Cheers
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Hi Ewan the bikes looking good so far well done !!
Have you tried the kickstart to make sure it clears everything ?? I fitted the tarozzi rearsets to my 750 and it hits the brake pedal I think I might have to heat it and bend it so it clears, yours may be different though !!
Cheers
Hi Stu, I think if I'd used the standard tarozzi mounts there might have been an issue... but I've mounted the sets further back .. on the passenger peg mounts , which is better suited to the guiallari seat riding position. Kikstart JUST clears the brake pedal in this position
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Hi Ewan,
You must have dropped lucky there. I have now bought two styles of clubman/cafe bars and I'm still not happy how they look. It would help greatly if you are able to measure yours for the width, rise, centre width and pullback of the bars, it may narrow my search for the perfect bars. Thanks in advance! Simon
Hi Si, been away for a week, will measure up tomorrow and let u know
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cheers ewan, no major rush pal.
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cheers ewan, no major rush pal.
here ya go .... rough(ish) dimensions. You seen tarozzi's adjustable bars & clip ons ?
http://www.discovolantemoto.co.uk/clipons-65-c.asp
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Time to get the 500 four back on the road after a break of three years, this time this time to finish the cafe racer job that was started about 17 years ago
Done : Full Engine rebuild about 3000 miles ago.
To do:
K&N Air Filters (done)
Straight through pipes (done)
Rejet with 110 mains/ clean / syncronise carbs (done)
Rebuild both wheels with new rims & spokes(done)
Dual Disc front brake conversion (done)
Drill front sprocket cover
Remodel Front Mudguard (done)
Drill brake discs (done)
Detag & shorten Frame (done)
Replace stock speedo/ rev counter (done)
Ace Bars (done)
Custom Tarozzi Rear Sets on rear foot peg hangers (done)
Relocate Battery (done)
Rewire from front to back and everywhere in between (done)
New Headlight (done)
New idicators (done)
New speedo (done)
New rear lights set up
New longer rear shocks (done)
New front mudguard (done)
Polish alloy (done)
Braided Stainless Fuel & Brake Hoses (done)
Stainless Bolts througout (done)
Refurbish Front Forks (done)
New Rear Shock Swing Arm Bushes (done)
New Plugs
Powder Coat the frame
Investigate effect of longer rear shocks on bike geometry and make front end adjustments if necessary (nearly done)
Fit Steering Damper (done)
Fit grease nipples to front break caliper arm pivot points (done)
Tune up carbs
Get MOT, tax and insurance
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wow !!
thats a whole heap of work,
lets us know how it handles?
and how the motor runs
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wow !!
thats a whole heap of work,
lets us know how it handles?
and how the motor runs
surely cannae be long now ;) Engine was fully rebuilt about 3000 miles ago, including new primary chain, new crankshaft shells, camchain & tensioner. Ran sweet before the rebuild, though needs a bit of carb fiddling.
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Thanks for the bar geometrics... very comprehensive and much appreciated. Keep up the good work with the cafe mogrel.
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Tonight I thought I'd check the carbs over before bench syncing them. Main jets are 110, pilots are 40 and needles are in the middle groove and joy of joys ............the wee bolt that joins the carb slide to the lifting mechanism on one of the carbs sheared >:( ..... more time needed that wisnae planned for ::)
... luckily I have a spare carb body I can canabalise if the worst comes to the worst :o
Carb sorted, though I had to wreck the lift mechaism roller drilling the remains of the bolt out of it so that the roller could slide out. Replaced that roller with my spare one..... Electrics this weekend. Lost the bloody carmera up a hill on islo skye so nae photies for a bit.
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Carbs, K&N filters & front mudguard on. Wiring loom installed, handlbar controls, headlight, rear light and indicators on.
[attachimg=1]
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Seat and tank on
[attachimg=1]
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[attachimg=1]
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[attachimg=1]
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Radiantz LED rear / brake light
[attachimg=1]
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Just need to set tappet clearance, balance carbs, set timing, fill with oil and do the front brakes...... Might have a wee electical niggle. Any suggestions on best oil to use ?
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ewan.looking good,
see you have avon boots,
it looks a work of art,
as for the oil,a semi-synthetic 10-40 should be perfect,
I am waiting with bated breath to see how it runs and handles !!
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ewan.looking good,
I am waiting with bated breath to see how it runs and handles !!
me too John , its been a while in the making, just hoping my wee elctrical problem is a simple fix.
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Forget the synthetic it's way over spec for the old SOHC. Tesco Mineral 10w40 Diesel oil is the correct spec, dont forget it needs changing every 1500 miles or at least once a year
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Agree with Bryan
They were made for the oil at the time mineral
Cheers
Bitsa
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[attachimg=1]
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So, set the tappet clearances & did the timing today and couldn't resist a wee hurl up the road, had the steering damper set at max. Seem to handle okay up to a steady 80 and pulls cleanly right through the revs. Back end is maybe a wee bit on the hard side.
Tick over is difficult to get right. After settling down after a flick on the throttle it sits too high on the revs, even after the thumbsrew is set right. To get it to slow down after the flick on the throttle I need to tickle the thumbsrew and still difficult to get it to sit at 1100RPM.
Worst thing is ... looks like I have a major oil leak at the head gasket, effin oil all over the shop. .. stud bolts were torqued correctly but I smeared the gasket with grease before I put it one , was that a mistake ? On the other hand , if I remember correctly the gasket was in a job lot of 4 that I bought for a tenner a piece, so maybe its just a crap gasket ... or it might be the head gasket that comes in Dave Silvers after market engine gasket set.
Anyway, now got a head gasket to replace before I can get a move on. >:( >:( >:( > Ordered an OEM one from DSS for mucho spondoolies, but he's out of stock right now. F.F.S.
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Looking good Ewan, Did you get rid of our brake arm from the 750? I still have mine with the caliper ;)
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Looking good Ewan, Did you get rid of our brake arm from the 750? I still have mine with the caliper ;)
sold for a whopping £6 Trig
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having a closer look this morning , it might be the rubber packing between the head cover and the head thats leaking.. but there's so much bleedin oil its hard to tell for sure
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There is a steel bracket that the alloy end caps screw to, this is held by a 6mm (10mm spanner) bolt that needs a soft alloy washer between the bracket and the cam cover to stop oil leaking. If this was not fitted or replaced with a steel washer you frequently get a bad oil leak
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There is a steel bracket that the alloy end caps screw to, this is held by a 6mm (10mm spanner) bolt that needs a soft alloy washer between the bracket and the cam cover to stop oil leaking. If this was not fitted or replaced with a steel washer you frequently get a bad oil leak
cheers Bryan, can confirm that alloy washers are present on both sides. Took it for another run... bit of front end twitchiness kicking in at 90mph on the country roads .. need to think about swopping the yolks over to NSR125 ones to reduce offset and increase trail I think
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Ewan, just read your NSR125 thread and looked at you pic,
I noticed you don't have a right-hand side caliper??
any issues about that ?
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Ewan, just read your NSR125 thread and looked at you pic,
I noticed you don't have a right-hand side caliper??
any issues about that ?
:) ... if you'd seen the other side you'd know that there is no caliper on the left hand side either ...front brakes arent on yet, as waiting for some fasteners to join the front mudguard to its stay properly first. So.. only issue is stopping. Gotta say the oil leak, the twitchy front end ... and difficulty in getting it to idle has really disheartened me this weekend. Also looks like its running pretty lean too. I keep thinking I'm nearly there .............the fool that I am.
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So u were doin 90mph with no front brakes? Or did i read that wrong
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So u were doin 90mph with no front brakes? Or did i read that wrong
ye well, ye know. Cant say its clever, cant say it big . Tempation to get it on the road after firing it up for the first time in a few years was tempation too far. I know the road like the back of my hand. . Promise not to do it again Dad :-[
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JEZZZZ !!!! Ewan,
get the anchors fitted BEFORE any more road tests,then sort the oil leakes,I think mine is weeping from the tappet cover O rings,
then the carburation,
as for the handling,you jacked up the ass end,so its bound to be different,
can you lower the back to standard and compare ??
you have spent many hours and lots of beer vouchers to mod the bike,
it will get better,just needs sorting,
and after that,you will be qualified to sort out the Moto GP Ducatis !!!
regards
John