Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => Project Board => Topic started by: magpie114 on October 24, 2023, 09:09:13 PM
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Despite stating in my new member intro thread that I was looking for a 750 to restore, I’ve ended up getting a CB350F (American import) instead. There was a post about it on this forum
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,29772.0.html
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Its obviously been stood for a long time and there’s a lot of surface rust but everything is solid. The tank has a couple of shallow dents but looks good internally. The mudguards have fine pitting but are free of dents and should be ok for stripping and replating. I was surprised to find the owners manual under the seat, unfortunately without its cover (I get the impression the manuals are rare and I’ve scanned it if anyone wants a copy). The first thing I noticed when sitting on it was the relatively high bars. My VFR400 is too low but this is very upright for me and it seems the bars fitted to the European model are a little lower? Anyway that’s some way off yet. The pipes are not going back on!
The frame and other parts have gone for powder coating today and and I’ve made a start on the engine. The pistons have a lot of carbon deposits. The exhaust valve in cylinder 4 was very slightly stuck open and the top ring in cylinder 3 had seized in the piston.
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A couple of the bores have very slight rusting in places - photo actually makes it look worse than it is. There was nothing worrying in the sump.
The only problem I’ve had so far during disassembly was the oil filter bolt, ridiculously overtightened. The bolt already had slightly rounded edges and would not move. Eventually ended up rounding the bolt head. I drilled thro the head and tried using my largest stud extractor but gave up at the point where I was convinced it would snap. The only remaining option then was to drill with a 20mm bit to remove the head and part of the flange. This allowed me to withdraw the housing and unscrew the remainder of the bolt. Unfortunately I caught the housing which will now need remedial work.
Reading Nurse Julie’s and Royhall’s build threads has been great preparation for splitting the cases hopefully this week. No doubt as well as a rebore and pistons, some big end and main bearing shells will be needed. I’d welcome any advice as to which ones I can reuse.
Alan
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High handle bars are standard on all USA model CBSOHC/4's. EU and UK model bars are lower, but we never got the CB350/4's in the UK model range.
Good luck with your project.
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One of the ways when I was in the trade to remove bolts like that was to use a cold chisel, position it along the edge at a slight angle, hit it hard, you want to cut into the flange at an angle that every time you hit it it tries to drive the bolt in the unscrewing direction. The combination of the shock to the bolt and the massive amount of sideways force being applied usually did the trick. If the slot you were cutting failed you’d just cut another.
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Hi Alan,
Glad it went to a good home! You seem to be well on the way already and I'm sure the oil filter housing would be re-claimable with a turned 'top hat' bush pressed in but if it isn't, then I have one here - they are different (longer) than 400/4. Are you sure it needs a rebore? Unless you intend commuting daily up and down the M74, you might get away with glaze busting and new rings - careful measurements will soon indicate the best path.
Here's a bit about my own 350/4 journey:
http://www.stallard-engineering.co.uk/stories/Bikes/Japanese/350four.htm
I have a few bits and pieces in the toy cupboard - shout if you need anything
Ian
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Interesting read, I look forward to reading your progress.
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Thanks Ian for the information, its a big help. I like your rig setup and will use it as a model. I'm sure I can recover the oil filter housing but thanks for your offer.
Thinking about it you are probably right about the rebore. I've been busy labelling and bagging parts but I made a few quick measurements as a guide. I don't have any means to measure the bores but the pistons and ring gaps are within service limits. I'll measure them accurately when I've cleaned the pistons up properly. I'm not sure how of the best way to remove the surface rust film/glaze tho'.
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Hi Alan, interesting update on your latest project. I did look at that bike as a potential project, decided to settle for another 550 instead. Nothing horrific revealed which is always good. Keep us posted!
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Hi Alan,
You could try the 'Engine Room' in Motherwell - they ought to be able to accurately measure the bores and if within spec they could probably glaze bust them for you too.
Ian
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Nice project to keep you busy over the winter.
If you haven't found them already, these are available in my Dropbox links.
CB350/400F SHOP MANUAL WORKSHOP
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1n3w5433jkph228/350F%20400F%20_4%20Shop%20Manual.pdf?dl=0
CB350F Parts Manual
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7pieydvznvy7nhp/CB350_F_F1%20Full.pdf?dl=0
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Good tip Ian thanks. I'll give them a try, they're fairly near too.
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Hi Ashimoto
I've already found them thanks - they're a big help. Together with the Clymer manual I feel well prepared.
Alan
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I’ve been distracted by a number of house and car jobs that needed doing but I finally got around to splitting the cases today. I’d removed the sump previously and thought one of the bolts was missing. Now its on the bench I’ve found that the bolt has been overtightened and the head has snapped off. I’ve removed broken studs before but I’m going to farm this out I’m not 100% confident with this one.
Other than that there are no obvious horrors. I’ll carry out a proper inspection in the next few days but so far I know I need to replace the primary chain.
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Thankfully the markings on the crank are clear and the code on the back of the crankcase is B B B B B
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The crankcase shells look generally ok to me apart from number 2 lower and possibly 2 upper which have a score marks although I’d welcome honest opinions.
So if needed I reckon the mains are B3 Black, B2 Brown, B1 Green, B2 Brown, B3 Black and big ends all 2A Yellow.
Hopefully getting the frame and bits back from powder coating this week, will feel like its really underway then. In the meantime I’ll keep chipping away at the cylinder base gasket which is resisting removal.
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Alan these shells look as if there got a bit of life in them yet! I’m not an expert and like you I would be seeking expert info or comments.
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Agree they look good, a few obscure marks as you note for that #2 that you may want to change out of preference.
Reality from those says it's been exceptionally well serviced in regard to oil condition in it's life, they are near exemplary in showing very very minor running in witness marks.
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Those crankshaft codes are so clearly visible it's like a new engine - sure sign of regular oil changes imho.
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Thanks for all your comments, much appreciated. I thought they were ok, but I had a slight nagging doubt. I'll replace #2 tho while I can.
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Can't remember what was recommended for removing old gaskets but might have been Acetone. I'm sure that will remind someone of what it actually was if I'm wrong. Sort of melts the gasket or maybe the bonding agent Honda used.
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I’ve just got some cellulose thinners to try. If that doesn’t work I’ll have a go with acetone.
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Might have been thinners TBH.
I do remember it as being something that dissolved stuff, like thinners does with paint and acetone with expanding foam
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When I did the head gaskets on my GL1200 Aspencade, I tried all kinds of stuff to remove the old gaskets - thinners, acetone, tar and glue remover and ended up with Hermetite gasket remover. This worked very well but it still took a long time soaking and removing. I have had Loctite gasket remover recommended to me recently but not bought any yet.
Ian
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Those cylinder base gaskets really do stick hard as both sides of the gasket are baked hard - I continually brushed thinners on mine to try to make it soak in. I used a hard plastic scraper to lift an edge peice then soaked the new edge in thinners to eventually get small sections to lift. Sometimes an inch or more would come off, then only small sections. If you can rough up the gasket surface that seems to help the thinners soak in.
I did buy some gasket remover off e-bay but it was no better at removing gaskets despite what it said on the tin. I did mine over a period of time as it's boring work eventually reverting to using a loose Stanley knife blade held almost horizontal to the alloy surface to avoid it digging in. With a hand held blade it's easier not to press too hard as the dull end digs into your thumb.
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If you get something like an old woodworking chisel, then grind the end completely flat-square- 90 degrees to give a no blade end. Then gently grind across the end (from one side to the other) in very broad radius (something like dinner plate edge in size) then make sure you've no burr on the edges to ensure no snagging, you've now got a metal scraper that you can lay flat on the gasket surface so that it doesn't cut the surface, but will easily remove the gasket material as you push it.
If the description is too long winded, it should finish by looking like perhaps a two pence piece layed flat on a surface to give you orientation.
Its not an unusual thing to make, but quite ordinary as a metal scraper than would be used in a toolroom for making things like surface plates by hand scraping. If you tip it up to any degree it'll cut the metal surface, but run it flat to gasket face and it'll take nothing off, just the gasket.
Sounds cumbersome, but very effective in use.
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I'll try some gasket remover - either Hermatite or Loctite, whichever I can get first. I've been working on it much like Ted recommends, slowly and a small area at a time with a Stanley blade and yes I've got a very sore thumb!
The scraper sounds logical, I've got an old woodchisel I can sacrifice. I'll try that in combination with the remover.
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The aerosol gasket remover I used was called BONDLOC "formulas that work" it spouts on the tin - trouble is it's Non-Chlorinated & Dichloromethan free - means useless.
It does stick to vertical surfaces though.
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The aerosol gasket remover I used was called BONDLOC "formulas that work" it spouts on the tin - trouble is it's Non-Chlorinated & Dichloromethan free - means useless.
It does stick to vertical surfaces though.
M E K pvc solvent, a useful and more potent cleaning agent is worthwhile trying ;)
Handy to keep some around for variety of task. Check first on plastics though as it'll dissolve some.
Also useful for cleaning gasket contact surfaces of castings etc prior to assembly as its a good degreasent.
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Go to b&q and in the paint section they have plastic handled scrapers with replacable stanley knife blade for about £3
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The trouble with those scrapers is that a hamfisted user like myself repeatedly snags the aluminium. Put a sharp edge on credit card, preferably the wife’s. Warming old gaskets with a hot gun can be helpful….one of those paint stripping types.
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Keep soaking them in petrol and scrape off as they soften. A pain in the arse of a job.
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Well progress has been much slower than I wanted but the frame, stands, brackets etc have now been powder coated and the swing arm phosphor bronze bushes from Julie fitted.
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The VIN plate was damaged and partially detached at the top when I got the bike but its straightened out reasonably well. The damage at the top is more noticeable in the photo.
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I know taper roller head bearings are popular but I had an unhappy time with them on my VFR400. I ended up fitting the stock Honda bearings which were perfect so I’m doing the same again.
Tomorrow I’m taking a pile of nuts and bolts to Able Platers in Livingstone who do small batch barrel zinc plating. They’re very near to a soda blasting company so I’m killing two birds with one stone and taking the cases along. However I’m unsure when I’ll be able to spray them as its far too cold in the shed and garage. Its very frosty at the moment and taking a lot of willpower to work in the garage!
I already have the engine and gearbox oil seals and but am unsure which gasket set brand to use as I’ve read conflicting opinions. I would like to get a genuine Honda head gasket if that tackles the oil weep issue.
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Collected my zinc plated bits and pieces this week and I've sent some fork and shock parts for chrome plating which look like being an 8 week turnaround. Still haven't fully removed the cylinder base gasket but it's currently soaking in WD40 at the moment. I've never come across a gasket as stubborn as this one.
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Also stripped the forks which are in surprisingly good condition to replace the seals. One fork came apart easily but the bottom socket bolt on the other fork refused to move and the Allen drive rounded the socket out. Had to drill thro the to the shank to remove the damper and found a rock hard adhesive or sealant around the head, top threads and copper sealing washer. Fortunately soaking in cellulose thinners softened it and freed the washer.
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I'm going to try industrial strength paint stripper on the crankcases and any brand recommendations would be welcome. First though, in the next day or two, I've got to tackle the sheared sump bolt which I've been putting off, really don't want to get that wrong.
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Synstryp….
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Thanks for the tip, it’s got good reviews online but there seem to be restrictions on its sale. Will try my luck next week
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Thanks for the tip, it’s got good reviews online but there seem to be restrictions on its sale. Will try my luck next week
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If you live near a vehicle trade paint supplier might be worth a visit wearing your dirtiest overalls - it is nasty stuff as you might be aware so ensure you wear the right safety gear.
I used Paramose Industrial bought it on e-bay last year - I just made a sort of declaration about H & S. Seller no longer on e bay as per my previous purchase they seem to move around.
https://refinishsystems.com/product/starchem-synstryp-paint-stripper-5l/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9ourBhAVEiwA3L5RFpNe4xWef0tTgJdFsZIea4Zt7166Ch4EKV2pxOjfTZL4sCtlzE-4MhoCDQMQAvD_BwE
OR https://www.agwoodcare.co.uk/products/paramosewwstripper/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9ourBhAVEiwA3L5RFtmyA7unIC74kQv0QpEXxSWTt6necfPiTms7JWXmatgwLiQ04WNX_xoCOYYQAvD_BwE
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Thanks for the info, both links look good, paricularly refinish systems. I've been told of a nearby alloy wheel specialist repairer/powder coater who may have suitable stripping facilities so calling round next week. Given the health and safety aspect that would be ideal but if not then I'll try Refinish.
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Called round first thing this morning to the local car wheel repair shop on the recommendation of a neighbour. Very helpful, confirmed they had a dip tank and were willing to strip the cases which I left with them. Couldn't believe it when I got a call this afternoon to say they were ready to collect. I'm really happy, that's a big time saver. Just got to tackle that broken bolt now.
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That's a seriously impressive turnaround time. I've been quoted THREE months by the vapour blaster I was going to use. Are you going to paint them, if you leave them bare they will corrode, ask me how I know this ::). When I restored the blue 400/4 I had the cases vapour blasted. Apparently, so I've been told, the vapour blasting process leaves a finish on the casting that protects against corrosion. I can confirm in the three years I had the 400 after the restoration the cases showed absolutely no signs of any corrosion anywhere.
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I know I was pleasantly shocked. Its a small company and I might have caught them in a quiet period but he seemed very interested in what I was doing. Good point about corrosion, I'm hoping to sort out soda blasting and painting fairly soon.
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Quite a few unfinished jobs at the moment, forks and shocks are ready to assemble when I get the various bits returned from the chrome platers, probably not until end of January. Cases to paint, but I’m waiting for a warmish spell as its very cold in the garage at the moment. I’ve decided to make a start on the carbs which were filthy but underneath the oil and dirt looked reasonably ok.
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Removing the float bowls revealed lots of varnish. I decided to work on the carbs in pairs and take it slowly as I’m not familiar with them. One carb (#4) came apart easily but #3 throttle slide was stuck solid and was eventually freed using lots of carb cleaner over a couple of days. Jets cleaned up ok in the ultrasonic bath. The float bowls took a bit of work to remove the last traces of varnish.
I started on #1 and #2 yesterday and both are really gummed up, throttle slides and and floats were stuck fast on both. Lots of varnish in both bowls. Interestingly, #1 was the most gummed up, decreasing progressively to #4 which was the least - probably due to how the bike was stored.
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The floats freed up after a few minutes with carb cleaner but the rest will take a little more time. The float pins are stuck fast.
A number of parts will go to the platers for zinc plating this week and I’m hoping I can get them back before the holidays.
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Well the chrome plating came back to my surprise after a little over 2 weeks. I used Ashfords and the results look good. The springs aren't perfect on the insides but I fully expected that. I didn't realise that they subbed work out until I found an old thread on here. The zinc plater I've used has recommended Quality Chrome in Hull.
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The carbs have cleaned up well despite the heavy varnish/tar deposits. I've retained the pilot jet, needle jet and needle but had to the replace main jet float needle + seat and fuel/airscrew with Keyster parts. I found a crack in one of the floats while setting the level so I'll have to wait until after the holidays to order a replacement and complete the assembly. Given its age I'm not going to try repairing it with epoxy.
I got one nos rear damper and paired it with the better of the two originals which has cleaned up well. I've loosely assembled the frame for the time being to save space but will need to take it apart again when I'm ready to install the engine. I'll be doing that on my own so I intend to lay the engine on its side and lower the frame over it. Unfortunately the bracket for the clocks has been powder coated in gloss black - I forgot to ask for it in satin black.
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The fork stanchions were derusted using Evaporust, I'm really surprised they are only partially chrome plated. Will assemble them after the Christmas period...can't see me getting much garage time until then.
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Lovely working there. Look at that shiny bits! Great to see it coming together too.
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I’ve been putting off tackling the broken sump bolt, convinced that it was likely to be in tight and develop into a saga and I’d damage the case. It was in a blind hole and I was worried that the bolt had bottomed out before snapping. However using a left hand drill it was out in under a minute! I’ve used stud extractors before but this is the first time I’ve used a left hand drill - handy bit of kit.
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So my new years resolution is to concentrate solely on preparing and painting the cases. I can then assemble and install the bottom end. The garage is pretty cold at the moment and there’s no sign of the weather improving for some time so I’m thinking of knocking together some sort of paint enclosure which I can heat.
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Very satisfying when it comes out that easy. I bought a cheap tent to erect in the garage makes a nice space easy to heat and can be dismantled afterwards.
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That's an excellent idea Johhny and a Top-Tip. It saves all the hassle of trying to put up sheets of plastic that blow around when the door is open for ventilation and having a base will also prevent dust being raised from the floor.
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Very satisfying when it comes out that easy. I bought a cheap tent to erect in the garage makes a nice space easy to heat and can be dismantled afterwards.
Great idea. I was going to cobble up a frame and plastic sheets. I’ll give this a go.
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I've used a gazebo with sides before. Worked well, but doesn't have a floor/groundsheet, of course.
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I've said this before, don't leave a key in the seat lock, you walk past, catch the key and it either bends or breaks in the lock OR it digs into your leg and ends up cutting you. Either way it's a bugger.
Been there, done that, hence why I keep saying it, lesson learned.
Coming on though.
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Good point. I’d been checking the seat fit and forgot about it.
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Gazebo would be good too Gareth maybe better because you could hang lights from the inner frame.😜
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I’ve finally been able to paint the cases now the cold spell has gone, the garage daytime temperature had been around 0°C for a quite a few days.
I was going to buy a cheap tent to use as a warm paint enclosure but thought I’d first try building one out of a cardboard flat screen tv box and part of a large mountain bike box I had. Once assembled, although a bit Heath Robinson, it warmed up quickly with a fan heater and held the heat very well. So first I ran the garage dehumidifier for a few hours together with a fan heater before warming the enclosure and cases. I gave both cases a mist coat of Simoniz VHT paint followed by 3 coats to give good finish.
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The barrel is currently with Julie and Graham for a rebore and I must get cracking with the head.
Meanwhile I’ve just received my front wheel from Full Circle Wheel Building. Had the hub polished and fitted with stainless steel butted spokes and rim. I’m happy with the service and fast turnaround of 10 days. I’m undecided about tyres but leaning towards a pair of K82s. I’ll be sending the rear hub in a month or so.
Looking ahead I’m undecided about paint. Can’t say I like Candy Bacchus Olive and I much prefer Flake Matador Red and Glory Blue Black Metallic colours. I think Glory Blue Black is the most attractive but I’ll probably keep changing my mind and may even keep the original Bacchus Olive (which I feel I should do). First I need to find a decent R/H headlamp bracket. I’ve been looking out for one for some time but strangely all the right hand ones I’ve seen have been damaged.
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Looking very good 👍.
A tip I was given about choosing a colour was lay the colours out and take away those you really didn't like until you are down to just two remaining where you can't decide. You then toss a coin to decide between them. If for example the choice was between red and blue and heads won the green but you wish it had been the blue that won then blue is the right colour. It has to be an instant reaction not a few seconds later otherwise you are back to square one! Best tip I was given and it works........ usually until someone else gives you their opinion ::)
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Looking very good 👍.
A tip I was given about choosing a colour was lay the colours out and take away those you really didn't like until you are down to just two remaining where you can't decide. You then toss a coin to decide between them. If for example the choice was between red and blue and heads won the green but you wish it had been the blue that won then blue is the right colour. It has to be an instant reaction not a few seconds later otherwise you are back to square one! Best tip I was given and it works........ usually until someone else gives you their opinion ::)
I finally decided to go with Glory Blue Black Metallic or as near a match as possible. I think it was always going to be black!
Dropped the tank, panels and headlight brackets off at Rapier Paintwork in Hull who I've used before and did a great job.
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Decided to fit Dunlop K82 tyres for the classic look and hopefully good grip. It's been a very long time since I've fitted a tyre and I've never found it easy. So I was a bit apprehensive about fitting the front tyre. This time I used a tyre lube instead of soap (which I've used in the past) and also a (new to me) "Bead Buddy". The tyre went on surprisingly quickly and easily. Using the Bead Buddy is like having a third hand I only had to use a tyre lever for the last few inches of the tyre.
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I've assembled the bottom end largely following NJ's thread. The bike has 11000 miles on the clock which I believe is genuine and only had to replace one shell. The primary chain, damper rubbers and obviously the various seals were also replaced. The horseshoe, which I gather can be a common problem, moves freely with no signs of binding or damage. Clutch plates and springs are well within specification. I intended to fit a new cam chain as a matter of course but unfortunately I had problems with the rivet tool. Instead of leaving it I tried to work around it only to ruin the chain. So I ended up fitting the original chain - it's done 11000 miles and I understand life is 30 to 35 thousand miles so I'm not concerned. The oil pump O rings were replaced with viton ones.
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I installed the engine by the frame over engine procedure on my own which was straightforward. The forks and front wheel were temporarily fitted to lift the frame off the floor.
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Next job is to fit my rebored barrels and pistons, received today from Julie/Graham.
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I know it's too late now but, since you had the engine apart, you could have fitted a complete cam chain that wouldn't have needed riveting. You only need to rivet the camchain if you're not splitting the cases. 🤔
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I was putting a heavy duty chain in which needed cutting, that bit went ok it was the riveting that went badly wrong. I was replacing it as a belt and braces approach so its not a disaster other than the loss of a good chain.
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Busy day getting engine ready to fit an endless cam chain which I should have done in the first place after my error. Was initially reluctant to split the cases again but second time around on a clean engine it was quick and easy. Just need to remove the final traces of hondabond from the surfaces tomorrow, had to call it a day as I can almost taste cellulose thinners.
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Also replaced the bearings in the rear hub ready to send to Full Circle Wheelbuilding. This time making sure I drilled the retainer staking out a little deeper this time.
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I had two Groundhog days when assembling my 400 cases - we live & learn.👎👎👍
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The bottom end is back together again and installed in the frame. I've replaced the cam chain, after my blunder, with an endless chain courtesy of Ken. The front engine bolts (M10 x 74) which were missing from the bike are discontinued but got some longer bolts at the Scottish Motorcycle Show yesterday. They will need cutting to length to make sure that they don't hit the oil gallery. Decent show, had a look around the classics displays in the morning but only saw one Honda 4 SOHC, looked quite nice.
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I was going to fit the alternator today but had forgotten that the stator wire connectors were burnt. I can't see any visible signs of damage or deterioration on the stator itself and I've checked the resistance and continuity to ground which are ok. I'll solder new connectors and adjacent wiring which is fairly crispy. Seems from posts on here that the stators are generally reliable. Also one of the screws securing the inner field coil has been butchered and will need drilling out - so not quite sure what's been going on there. I've got an Electrex harness to fit later in place of the original which is showing abuse, wear and tear plus a few "modifications".
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I'm sending the rear hub to Full Circle Wheel Building this week. I've tried to remove the studs from the sprocket to fit into a new one, but they are stuck fast. Going to try again with some heat. I've screwed nuts on the ends to protect the threads but I'm concerned about damaging them as it seems they aren't available.
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Making good progress there. The sprocket studs were pretty well stuck in my hub but they did come out in the end with the application of some WD40 and I left it for a week but kept giving it another spray whenever I was in the garage (daily!).
The 400/4 at the show looks great, there's an owner with class, its a yellow one 8)
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Due to various commitments, progress has been sporadic to say the least but now I’ve got a clear spell and hopefully I can get upto speed.
Today I fitted the pistons and barrels which have been rebored +0.5. The pistons have been individually identified to each cylinder by Trigger. Although I was a little apprehensive about doing it on my own, it was surprisingly easy and straight forward. The bores had been coated in Graphogen and starting with the two central pistons I just took my time to squeeze each ring in turn with my fingers allowing the barrels to slide down. Then I turned the engine to raise the outer pistons a little before repeating the process. Tomorrow I’ll fit the head and camshaft
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I also fitted the powder coated air cleaner/battery box and associated electrics which have cleaned up well. The regulator point gap was 0.3mm as specified. Forward and reverse continuity tests on the rectifier checked out ok.
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The HT leads are in poor condition and one of them can be rotated in the coil so I’m going to see if they are repairable following Ashimoto’s fix.
The sprocket studs were pretty well stuck in my hub but they did come out in the end with the application of some WD40 and I left it for a week but kept giving it another spray whenever I was in the garage (daily!).
The sprocket studs finally did come out after applying more WD40 and some heavy blows with a lump hammer.
I’ve started polishing the clutch cover using a Dremel with the plastic bristles recommended by Ken. The cover was heavily pitted and has started to come up well but needs a little more work. Its strangely boring but addictive at the same time!
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Excellent progress there. The polishing mops are a brilliant piece of kit.
Trigger probably bored your barrel and mine at the same time!
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The before & after photos of the electrics behind the side panel look inpressive - all those now homeless Arachnids good work!
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The before & after photos of the electrics behind the side panel look inpressive - all those now homeless Arachnids good work!
Just spotted a mistake though, I’ve fitted the black regulator cover the wrong way!
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Finally got the cylinder head and cover installed and valve clearances set. Unfortunately when I initially started to fit the head I found the original cylinder/head dowels were slightly deformed and far too tight in the cylinder as I tried to fit them. I’d forgotten that one of them in particular took an awful lot of effort to remove during disassembly and so I had to send for new cylinder/head dowels. Better to do it right but it was a frustrating wait. I now need to cleanup and polish the tappet and crankcase caps, can’t say that I’m looking forward to that job!
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I think I’ve got the harness routing figured out and I now need to decide whether to try and fix the original coils (Ashe's fix) or replace with after market versions - not sure which way to go yet. The chrome on the horn is fairly good and doesn’t need replating so I’ve assembled that with the ignition switch and bracket (thanks Ian) in place of the handlebar mount that came with the bike. The left hand handlebar switch has cleaned up ok but the right hand switch has beat me so I’ve ordered an aftermarket version from DSS.
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Phil at Full Circle Wheel Building emailed this morning to say that he would build the rear wheel tomorrow morning and hopefully I’ll get that back on Friday.
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Excellent progress.
I sympathise with you about all the last minute hold ups though. I went to fit the rear shocks on my 400/4 yesterday in readiness to lift the frame over the completed engine only to find the 10mm threads in the lower shock mounts are 1.25 pitch and normal 10mm 1.5 pitch thread are obviously too big! Trying to find stainless 10mm bolts with 1.25 pitch was a pia. I found some in the end but they were £7.28 EACH! And I thought Honda bolts were expensive!
Good luck with the rear wheel, once in at least you will be able to move it around👍.
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Standard stainless not a good idea in high stress positions
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Standard stainless not a good idea in high stress positions
Good point Bryan. I'll get some Honda items from HGB. I'll frame the two stainless ones considering they were so expensive.
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The rear mudguard, grab rail and some fittings have gone to Ashford Chroming who have quoted an 8 week turnaround which isn't too bad. Can't make my mind up whether to have the front mudguard replated as well or get an aftermarket replacement as it’s probably going to be more cost effective. However I’m not convinced that the aftermarket items will be to the same standard as a replated original mudguard.
My rear wheel arrived on Friday from Full Circle Wheel Building and I’ve put a K82 on, just waiting for the sprocket and brake plates which are at the powder coaters.
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I’ve turned my attention to the electrics and I’ve started “Ashes fix” on the coils which are in good condition although the HT leads were in a terrible state. As mentioned in the procedure the outer insulation of each HT lead was hard and two of the inner conductors had broken. The coils cleaned up well and the leads were exposed in no time at all using a rasp. Now I know that the coils are good I’ll go ahead and order some epoxy from RS.
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Worthwhile job on the coils! Having done three sets of coils now I had a couple of leads that just fell out of the ends of the moulding. Interesting how the lower coil in your pic the ht lead snakes in a s formation, must have been the end of a roll before moulding applied during moulding process?
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I think you’re right. It’s not obvious in the photo but the lead was in a very shallow spiral path.
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A few updates. I’ve soldered new HT leads in the coils and completed encapsulation with the recommended RS epoxy. Just need to cosmetically finish them off with some Milliput. I was concerned about too much heat input when soldering and used fine nosed pliers as a heat sink. The epoxy took a couple of days to harden fully, not helped by relatively low overnight temperatures in the garage. Final electrical tests confirmed the coils have survived my efforts.
The powder coated brake and sprocket plates have arrived back but I’m still waiting for a rear sprocket which should finally arrive later today. The stock size seems to be in short supply with plenty advertised on eBay but which become out of stock when you order. My first order did not appear and I had to cancel and get a refund. The next supplier claimed 10 available but subsequently had “a stock Issue” now promised today.
My gauges arrived back this morning from Peter Horton who has done a fantastic job. I couldn’t resist a quick look on the bike, they really do look brand new.
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I sent them to Peter because I could see traces of oil droplets inside the glasses. Peter found that the grease had solidified and the mileage counter wheels had stuck together which in operation would have stripped the gears or snapped the drive cable.
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Just took delivery of my rear sprocket and it isn’t the correct one! I got mixed up in my earlier post, the sprocket that’s arrived today is from Wemoto which I ordered after the eBay episode.
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It’s out of stock at DS and CMS. I tried two suppliers on eBay, one has no stock despite listing the item. The other reported “stock issues” after I asked for a refund and then a day later promised delivery for next week. The item is now apparently on its way. I feel a saga coming on….
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Just took delivery of my rear sprocket and it isn’t the correct one! I got mixed up in my earlier post, the sprocket that’s arrived today is from Wemoto which I ordered after the eBay episode.
(Attachment Link)
It’s out of stock at DS and CMS. I tried two suppliers on eBay, one has no stock despite listing the item. The other reported “stock issues” after I asked for a refund and then a day later promised delivery for next week. The item is now apparently on its way. I feel a saga coming on….
I feel your pain, I've been waiting two weeks for spark plugs that were advertised as in-stock but so far nowhere to be seen!
Was the old sprocket worn out? I was lucky with Ratty because although the drive chain was seized solid the rear sprocket was perfect apart from the PO having it chrome plated! I had that removed and it was refinished in BZP and it has come out like new.
I think we are both in the same place with our builds. Every time I think I am on the home straight I go to fit another part and I find something else is missing, currently waiting for the two long hex nut studs that hold the headlamp frame to the top yoke. These are due next week.
This is the story when you buy someone else's idea of what they think a bike should look like including pod filters, black painted engine, chrome sprockets and engine plates, fiamm horns, wide wheel rims, cow horn handlebars etc. The result is all the small but expensive and difficult to get parts would be thrown in the bin years ago! It's all thanks to the great people on this forum that Ratty will live again as a 400/4 and not end it's days unloved in a shed.
As for Peter Horton, the man is an absolute guru and a wizard when it comes to restoring our clocks. I can't believe how he brought my clocks back from the dead and converted the rev counter to a 400/4 item from the 250 item I gave him👍.
Good luck with your continuing restoration, it's obviously going to be a great bike when it's finished and looking forward to seeing the finished result 👍.
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I feel your pain, I've been waiting two weeks for spark plugs that were advertised as in-stock but so far nowhere to be seen!
Was the old sprocket worn out? I was lucky with Ratty because although the drive chain was seized solid the rear sprocket was perfect apart from the PO having it chrome plated! I had that removed and it was refinished in BZP and it has come out like new.
The old sprocket was worn, corroded and was in overall poor condition. I didn't want to use it with a new chain and front sprocket - rightly or (probably) wrongly I slung it. I'll have to wait and see if the other one due next week is ok. And yes the simplest little brackets and fasteners are like hens teeth.
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Well it's no surprise that the second sprocket was unsuitable.
The 400 shares the same hub and dampers so I thought the 400 sprocket pegs might be slightly different and offer a solution. Lots on eBay for around £10 a set so at that price I thought I'd give them a try. Unfortunately these are incorrect as well. Although the flange fits in the sprocket recess correctly the pin diameter is 9mm instead of 12mm - the photo shows it much better than my explanation.
I may have to cut the flanges on the original pegs to suit.
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Today I've been repairing/replacing wires, removing quick splice connectors and crimping some new connectors to the idiot light assembly and gauge lights. Most of the quick splice connectors are shown in the stripdown photo below.
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Fitted new bulbs all round and checked the lighting circuits were ok. No unexpected problems but I can see it will need some care to connect everything neatly in the headlight shell come the time.
The seat is in reasonably good condition but the chrome effect trim was poor. I was surprised to find that it's part of the cover and not removable. So I've carefully rubbed it down, and after masking, sprayed it with aluminium effect enamel. It's come out better than I expected and I'll apply a coat of lacquer next week.
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Probably a silly question, but is the sprocket the same both sides?
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No its plain on the other side. If I mount it the other way round it would be slightly out of line and the peg wouldn't be restrained when tightening or undoing its nut.
David Silver have 50 on order and will let me know the ETA on Monday. On the photo from the DS site you can see how the peg would sit correctly on the sprocket. Still got a lots to be getting on with so I can wait.
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Finally got the correct rear sprocket, tried all the usual places but I had overlooked Honda Classics. Looking for a stainless f/brake caliper piston and a couple of other items I typed CB350f in the site search bar and there amongst the parts was the sprocket. Ordered online Tuesday evening, delivered Thursday morning and the pegs fit correctly.
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I’ve been checking the placement of the various washers on the brake stay arm. The rubber washer had previously been fitted (apparently incorrectly) on the outside of the stay instead of next to the brake plate. Confusingly the owners manual shows it on the outside.
Also I initially thought the parts diagram of the stay at the swing arm was wrong - shouldered bolt, torque arm, 10mm spring washer, 8mm plain washer then nut. However I suppose this allows some movement of the arm whilst retaining some tension.
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You should find the spring washer will fit over the plain shank of the bolt but the plain washer will not
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I’ve been scratching my head over the ignition timing. Just couldn’t make sense of it, going round in circles trying to find what I’d done wrong. Almost like the advancer was 180 degrees out, but didn’t think it could be as there’s a locating peg. Then a quick search on here confirmed that the cam could be reassembled incorrectly. Images of the advancer online show the mark on the rim facing the semi circular alignment notch whereas mine faces away.
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My efforts to free up the original f/brake master cylinder, which was gummed up and is still stuck fast, have so far been unsuccessful. I’ve cleaned it externally and soaked it in penetrating oil but had no joy. As I’m unsure whether it will be too badly corroded if I do eventually manage to free it I got a good master cylinder without internals from 400fourbits and used the repair kit I got for the original.
[attach=2]
I’m still searching for a lower German or French handlebars so I’m reluctant to get throttle cables and the top brake hose until I’ve exhausted all avenues and know which bars I’ll be using.
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Progress has been slow and but steady due to a number of short breaks away and family commitments. However all chrome plating has now been completed by Ashford. In the end I decided to have the front mudguard replated rather than buy an aftermarket replacement. Expensive but very impressed with the finish and customer service.
I’ve just collected my tank, panels and shrouds from Rapier paintwork who have done a great job. Unfortunately the photos don’t accurately reproduce the blue black metallic finish which I’m very happy with. Can’t help but think of a Velocette when I look at the tank. I’ve lifted the photo showing all the parts from Rapiers Facebook page.
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I’ve tried to rescue the side panel emblems but I’m disappointed with the results. After stripping the old paint I used Humbrol model paints and a very fine brush to drop the enamel in. The emblems have had a hard life and the raised chrome edges are scuffed and rough which traps paint and is difficult to wipe off making it hard to get a clean edge. They will do for the time being but I’ll probably revisit them later.
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The carbs just need checking on the bench for leaks before I fit them to the bike. They’ve taken up some time due to my indecision as after cleaning, reassembling and bench synching them I thought better about using the original throttle shaft which had some corrosion. Although it cleaned up reasonably well there were some deep pits and it would have been susceptible to further corrosion so I replaced it with a stainless steel version from Max. Then while checking the bench synch once again, the quadrant split into two so I had to remove and re-rivet it.
The seat has cleaned up well. The base was surprisingly corrosion free but was scuffed/scratched in a few places and smartened up with some paint. I had a go at applying some aluminium foil tape to the trim which looked promising on the straight sections but was a mess on the corners. So after masking I painted the plastic trim with aluminium finish paint with a further coat of clear lacquer which turned out much better than I expected. However it was only when I put the seat on the bike that I discovered the seat base was slightly twisted and not only that the Honda logo is out of alignment which is all too obvious in the photo - looks awful! It’s something I didn’t notice when I stripped the bike.
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The finish line is in sight now and I need to make a decision about the exhaust system. The Delkavic four into one looks ok and the price seems reasonable. The megaphone silencer looks more period and appropriate than the straight option but I can’t say that either are what I had in mind.
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The paintwork is beautiful. Lovely job. 👍
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The paint looks excellent Alan,
As you say - Velo like! You certainly seem to be on the home straight now, very encouraging when it's reassembly and no more cleaning or removing obstinate bolts!
I've been out on mine recently but had an issue with what appeared to be fuel starvation when asking for a bit more gas on uphill bits. Hopefully found the culprit with a lot of fine particles on the top of that really fine brass filter screen in the tap bowl and a small piece of leaf (how the hell did that get in there?) when I drained and flushed the tank. Glad I didn't go to the Crieff meeting on it.
Might get out in the next day or so to see if I've cracked it!
Ian
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Remove the paint on the seat with nail varnish remover and re do with a stencil from Piki (I may have a spare here come to think of it) and TRG spray vinyl paint.
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I wondered if there was solvent which would remove it. I’ll try give it a go.
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The paintwork looks very good, not long to go now👍.
I painted the HONDA logo on the back of my new seat today using the stencil and the TRG paint and it's an absolute mess! The paint has bleed into the grain of the vinyl over the whole seat, I'm going to have to use a bottle of varnish remover to get it off. I really don't think I'll bother trying to paint it again (I don't have another stencil for starters) and the chances are it will do the same again. I went over the stencil with a roller to make sure it was properly stuck down but it obviously can't get into the grain of the vinyl to seal it and the paint being thin bleeds into it.
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I’m thinking the same and I’ll just remove the logo. That will be a vast improvement on is own. I’m not confident that I could do it without the edges bleeding.
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The paintwork looks very good, not long to go now👍.
I painted the HONDA logo on the back of my new seat today using the stencil and the TRG paint and it's an absolute mess! The paint has bleed into the grain of the vinyl over the whole seat, I'm going to have to use a bottle of varnish remover to get it off. I really don't think I'll bother trying to paint it again (I don't have another stencil for starters) and the chances are it will do the same again. I went over the stencil with a roller to make sure it was properly stuck down but it obviously can't get into the grain of the vinyl to seal it and the paint being thin bleeds into it.
I have a spare stencil if you want to try again Dave. Pretty sure Julie has a technique for applying the dye.
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Thanks Ash. Is it the smaller stencil? Piki sent me two stencils, one short and one slightly longer. When I compared them to my original honda seat it was the smaller one I needed to use.
Let me know the cost and I'll use PayPal F&F.
If Julie knows of a method to avoid paint bleeding that would be great. I thought all was well as I was leaving the paint for 30 minutes between coats but as it is very thin it took four coats. It wasn't until I peeled the stencil off the mess was revealed :-[
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Don't look too closely!
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Thanks Ash. Is it the smaller stencil? Piki sent me two stencils, one short and one slightly longer. When I compared them to my original honda seat it was the smaller one I needed to use.
Let me know the cost and I'll use PayPal F&F.
If Julie knows of a method to avoid paint bleeding that would be great. I thought all was well as I was leaving the paint for 30 minutes between coats but as it is very thin it took four coats. It wasn't until I peeled the stencil off the mess was revealed :-[
I need to check Dave (I have a Genuine NOS seat on my bike to compare with) ... These didn't come from Diego. If they area any good I will post free.
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Thanks Ash, much appreciated 👍
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Nice paintwork on these parts Alan, you 350 is taking shape. Dave that is annoying! I have noticed a considerable difference in the vinyl seat covers regarding grain or material, think it would be very difficult to completely seal around the edges of that stencil on that type of material. Somebody else on here had that same problem and spent ages cleaning up all the little bleed marks, can’t remember who that was.
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Thanks Ash, much appreciated 👍
Stencil is same size as NOS seat one Dave... will post tomorrow. Good luck! I have never done one yet but I would tend to apply in several light mist coats and keep the hair drier on it all of the time.
[attachimg=1]
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That's the one, thanks Ash :).
The O/H voluntered to clean up the seat and has managed to get most of the old paint off although there's still a bit more to do as it has run into the grain of the vinyl.
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Same here Dave, got most of the original logo off but still bits trapped in the grain. Promising though just need to keep at it.
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Started to make some decent progress. Checked the carbs for leaks on the bench and thankfully they were ok. When I reassembled the carbs I replaced the float valves and main jets with keyster parts and retained the remaining original brassware. I’m well aware that some have been unlucky with the float valves but due to the state of the originals I didn’t have much of a choice. Installing the carbs was straightforward and easier than I expected but it did take some effort to get the centre airbox rubbers to seat properly.
Fitted the front mudguard, headlight and completed the wiring. The electrics appear to be ok and suddenly it resembles a bike. I took a photo on the drive while I cleaned up and restored order in the garage.
[attach=1]
Aftermarket cables for the carbs from cmsnl fitted and adjusted perfectly so my next plan was to check the tank/tap interface was leak free before fitting the tank. Unfortunately a heavy cold meant another delay - felt really rough and just couldn’t be bothered to do anything this week. Even the arrival of a Delkavic exhaust system I’d ordered couldn’t get me in the garage.
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Felt much better this morning so had a good look at the exhaust and had a trial run at fitting it. I’m very pleased with the quality and appearance of it but I suspect it will take a fair bit of fine tweaking to line up - this weekends first job.
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Now that's looking really good 👍. I've never noticed the clutch casting on the 350F as it's usually obscured but it is a really nice casting. All very shiny and the finish line is very close now, not long to go and a few more days in the garage and it be the big first start👍.
I sympathise with the cold, I felt fine last Saturday but as the day wore on I came down with a stinking cold. Strange though it only lasted a couple of days, I even checked for COVID as I felt so rough but was clear👍.
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She really is looking great Alan.
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That is looking like a very nice job done so far, that’s going to be a lovely looking bike, exhaust is going to make a big difference.
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Thanks all for your comments. Today was a good step forward with the exhaust fitted and I'm very happy with the appearance. Straight forward procedure, the pipes were numbered as were the corresponding inlets on the collector. It was just a matter of first installing pipes 1 and 2 to the head and then offering up the collector box. Pipes 3 and 4 were then fitted to the head and collector followed by the silencer. The whole assembly took a bit of pushing and pulling into position whilst tightening each bolt a little at a time. The last operation was to fit the springs which are really strong. While fitting the two outer springs the bike felt unstable and unsafe while pulling them into position. I’ll fit the remaining two springs tomorrow after I’ve collared my neighbour to steady the bike - he doesn't know yet :).
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Wow, that's so clean and tidy. Great work!
One question - are the rubbery things on the exhaust springs designed to keep the springs clean or stop them from rattling .. or something else,? I have a similar thing on my zx6r side stand and just assumed it was to keep muck out of the spring, and as there is only one it's probably not an anti- rattle thingy.
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I've been thinking about this too! I used to think it was to keep them clean too but very often they only cover a small portion of the spring. To be honest I don't know either but I can only think its to stop them from rattling and resonating as air passes thro/over them?
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Made good progress these last few days. Bled the front brake, first time I’ve used silicone brake fluid and the process took a little longer than I expected. To start it off I had to connect a syringe to the caliper bleed nipple and draw a vacuum. The brake feels a little spongy and needs to be better, I’ll see if I can improve the feel next week.
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I’ve temporarily fitted the old side panel emblems which I repainted. They aren’t in great condition and they’re not the correct colour but they will do for now. I contacted BadgeReplicas Australia to see if they had the correct emblems for the glory blue black scheme. They replied quickly that although they didn’t they would do some in that correct colour, available in 6 to 8 weeks.
The side panels are secured by a chrome plated pin onto which two guides and a spring are secured by a spring pin which is a discontinued item. I couldn’t find any correct size spring pins online other than in China so I tried a local ironmonger shop which is something of an Aladdins cave. They have a very large tool section together with plumbing, electricals, household stuff etc. I asked the assistant in the tool section whether they had any spring pins and explained they were similar to roll pins. He said they had a variety and led me thro to the kitchen department to some rolling pins Not the first time my Yorkshire accent has confused the Scottish locals :). Anyway I the correct size pins came from China fairly quickly.
The main step forward is that I’ve briefly had it running. It starts easily but initially it would rev too high after starting and I would have to cut the ignition very quickly. This turned out to be due to the fast idle being engaged although I thought I’d set it correctly on the bench. After adjusting the fast idle it ticks over nicely at 1400rpm. Blipped the throttle a couple of times and it seems to hang a little so will have to fine tune the air screws, but it doesn’t seem too far off. I don’t have any vacuum gauges so that’s something I’ll have to look at in the near future.
When initially reassembling the carbs I fitted the springs and air screws from the Keyster kit, thought better of it and put the original screws back but left the Keyster springs in. Today while checking the carbs over I took the airscrews and springs out and noticed some very fine bright metallic particles on my fingers. These were coming off the plating on the Keyster springs so I replaced them with the originals.
A few more things to check over and complete but should be ready for a trial run midweek.
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That's looking great - I like the Delkevic exhaust system presumably SS as well.
FWIW you might find the spongy front brake improves with use or even overnight whilst standing - on my 400 & 500 as I used repacement DS master cylinders the lever has amost zero free travel.
I have also used Silicone fluid in both systems using a syringe to push fluid up from the caliper until it appeared in the reservoir - nipped up then filled from the top. I have to admit it took some pushing on my 300 cc syringe.
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FWIW you might find the spongy front brake improves with use or even overnight whilst standing - on my 400 & 500 as I used repacement DS master cylinders the lever has amost zero free travel.
I hope so - I get the impression that the sponginess is a characteristic of silicone fluid
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FWIW you might find the spongy front brake improves with use or even overnight whilst standing - on my 400 & 500 as I used repacement DS master cylinders the lever has amost zero free travel.
I hope so - I get the impression that the sponginess is a characteristic of silicone fluid
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Definitely not anything to do with the fluid imho.
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That is looking fantastic Alan, you must be very proud, hard work (and frustration!) pays off in the end😁.
Well done that man, have a beer to celebrate 🍺👍
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Nice work, bike is looking great the final fettling will follow. Laughing about the rolling pins!😂😂 “fork handles” spring to mind!
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I'm collecting the chain guard from the powder coaters tomorrow which oddly I'd overlooked. However I couldn’t resist taking the bike on its first outing today as otherwise I won’t get a chance for a few days. A pleasant short ride, but it threw up a couple of problems. After it had warmed up I ran out of adjustment for the tickover which was steady at around 2500 rpm so looks like the carbs will have to come off. Otherwise the carbs seem ok and it ran fine.
The other problem was totally unexpected. It was a flowing ride on quiet country roads with gentle bends and little need for braking but after a few miles the front disc began to bind. You can just make out some discolouration on the disc in the photo. I’m fairly confident that the caliper is fine (good condition, new piston and seal), but suspect the master cylinder may be the culprit and I’m starting to wonder if I’ve not assembled the repair kit correctly or whether the mc itself is faulty. Could this prevent pressure from releasing?
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At the bottom of the reservoir there are two "dimples" one obiously is a hole into the bore, the other looks likejust a blanked hole BUT there is a tiny hole at the bottom about the size of two thin strands of multicore cable twisted.
If this hole is blocked you get exactly your symptoms.
Two other possibilities are
1 swinging caliper pivot pin
2 in flexi hoses are original they can block or collapse
The first us 500 i did i had to rod out the flexis with a welding rod as they were that blocked
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The caliper pivot pin is fine and the hose is new. I think your suggestion about the fine hole is most likely. Thanks, I’ll investigate that further.
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Down and dirty test is carefully cover everything arround the master then remove cap and diaphragm pull in lever and let go and if hole is clear you should get a small fountain( hence the coverings!)
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All sorted thanks, exactly as you described. Took a little while and some patience but unblocked it with wire strand and got a fountain. Fortunately silicone fluid but covered everything anyway. Thanks Alan
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Great photo Alan. You must be very pleased how the bike turned out 8). Good news with the brake, great piece of diagnoses Bryan and you didn't even have to see it to know what the problem was, experience you cannot buy👍
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After crud behind caliper seal its the most overlooked problem, as you said been doing Hondas now close on 50 years so seen quite a lot of obscure problems
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Yes really pleased with it Dave. Was great first ride, good weather, road to myself but the brake problem cut it short. Bryan hit the nail on the head which enabled me to fix it. Can’t wait to take it out next week.
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Apart from one or two niggles, mainly the carbs, the bike’s running fine and now just needs some fine tuning. The front brake, disappointing at first, is getting better with use and has more bite than I expected. Hopefully I can put some miles on it if the weather remains good.
The forum has helped me immensely including NJ’s engine thread, various parts/service from NJ/Trig, Peter Horton, Oddjob, hard to get part from Orcade-Ian and not forgetting Ash’s Dropbox. Plus of course advice and encouragement from members along the way.
I’ve made a site donation - its saved me more.
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Well done. Now enjoy 🏍️🏍️🏍️🏍️