Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB650 => Topic started by: andy120t on September 02, 2009, 02:47:19 PM
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CB650
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Nice one Andy, inspiration 1 looks good.
keep us posted, shout if you need any help or pics from mine.
Phil
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2. Sorting it all out.
Having major problems loading piccies for this post. File size adds up to about 90kb which I thought was OK. Annoyingly I managed to delete my first version of this post
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Posting pictures separately - found out that one of the files hadn't compressed properly.
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...just forgot to attach them...
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You can mix pictures in with your descriptive text if you host them externally.
There's a FAQ on the US site on how to do it:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=14605.msg93296#msg93296
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I have a couple of cb550/k3 frames and a tank (same bike) that's got 1 pinhole that a petseal treatment missed plus a bad paintjob plus various other bits that might be of use. They are in mid Wales but could be dropped off somewhere en route to Sommerset or I could try finding out about postage
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Cheers matthewmosse - have pm'd you on this.
SteveD - will try that too, should make the post flow better.
Andy
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3. Engine Stripdown
The engine as received has had the alternator removed, the starter motor removed, the pick-up cover and pick-ups removed. All these parts and spares are in the boxes of bits but I
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Whilst I was here I noticed that there are only two rubber seals but eight possible locations. Is this normal? Why only 2 & what are they for?
They seal the hole where those bolts are. If you look, you'll see that those particular bolts go through to the 'outside' of the rocker assembly, so any oil going down those holes will just leak out. Hence, you need 'em all.
I bought a full gasket set, but only did a top end strip, so if it helps I might have some gaskets you could use. Probably find you'll need a full kit, or near as dammit, but shout if you do need any gaskets or seals. I have a new 'o' ring - the long wiggly one - that seals the rocker assembly to the head (~
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4. Update
Seems like an age since my last post on the engine stripdown
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Seems you've been busy, pretty sure the frame was a cb550k3 1978 by the way, reminds me must post log book today! If you are stuck for a swing arm and rear engine mount bolts (top or bottom) then I'lll have a dig round for them as They are all lying around somewhere here. Sounds like you're doing a sterling job. Keep us posted
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Andy.
When posting pictures from Photobucket, paste in the code from the "IMG Code" box rather than the url. It makes the thread much easier to read.
I've done the first one for you 8)
Steve
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Steve - fantastic comment! I wondered why mine always linked out....not them I'm technology illeterate, I just don't read the instructions properly! Have made a start & will amend the earlier posts soon too.
Matt - logbook would be good...I SORN'd today so that may land on your doorstep! Might take you up on that swingarm / bolts if they are handy.
Cheers.
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A quick update to say that I'm still working on my special & sourcing parts but I haven't actually done anything for ages beyond stripping the brakes down.
Initially I'm going to be using the CB550 (I think) master cylinder & reservoir with a pair of CB650 single piston calipers. I'm making a working assumption that this will give enough stopping power as the master cylinder is 5/8" which is the same as my GSXR750H m/cylinder - consequently it should be up to the job so long as I have two calipers. Having said that, & thinking as I write, the GSXR has 4 pistons so maybe my braking force will be halved?
Anyway, couldn't get the lever bolt out so resorted to the trusty junior hacksaw.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/andy120t/CB650%20rebuild/DSC00671.jpg)
Calipers were heavily seized in so I used a spare GSXR m/cylinder to push them out. Amazingly, for the last twenty years I've been using compressed air at the garage to do this. Clearly this is a little dangerous as once freed the pistons pop out with quite a force. It's also been quite tricky to get the air into the cylinder. Anyway, having read a few threads on these forums & the US one I realised that using brake fluid to push it out was the way forward....I've never thought of doing this before, probably because I assumed it would be a messy job but it's not, it's soooo easy and I can do it in the comfort of my warm cellar rather than a cold, draughty garage forecourt!
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/andy120t/CB650%20rebuild/DSC00695.jpg)
They will need new pistons and a rebuild kit and a paint so just psyching myself up for that!
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/andy120t/CB650%20rebuild/DSC00696.jpg)
Anyway, caliper bodies are stripped and ready for painting, as is the m/cylinder / reservoir. No piccies so you'll have to take my word for it! Will be doing the m/cyl in in gloss black for now, but it may look awful - only time will tell. Tying to find a graphite colour for the calipers so they contrast a bit - but still looking for that.
Only other thing is brake lines. In the spirit of the "parts-bin" build I should use the hoses that came in my box of bits, however since these appear to be the originals I'm not that comfortable with how good they will be. SO have decided to buy a nice shiny set of Goodridge or HEL braided hoses once she's up and running.
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Hi Andy, I have put a master cylinder that looks very similar (think mine came off a CB750F?) and it doesn't pump enough fluid to work with dual discs. At the moment I've taken one disc/caliper off and it's OK but could never get enough pressure with twin discs.
Haven't ridden it like that but I'm working on the assumption that the 750 it came off was single disc so single on the 650 will be OK, but obviously I'd rather find a 650 m/cyl and put it back to twin disc set-up.
I've bought a few hoses off this guy - good quality and service. http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/thracing09. He deals in Venhill hoses and fittings.
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Cheers Phil. I like the price of those hoses - & they are all stainless fittings too.
nb - There's an article in Back Street Heroes this month (page 56 or thereabouts) about brakes / master cylinders & braking forces which I really should read more closely. Apparently there is some science behind it all! & it may help me understand the best way & best m/cyl vs caliper set-up which will work. May be worth a look if you are still wrestling with your set-up.
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Polished my other fork today!!!! But no pictures of it....progress is slow, yet steady.
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Cheers Phil. I like the price of those hoses - & they are all stainless fittings too.
You'll like them, excellent quality and service every time, more than happy to recommend him (no association, just a happy customer)
There's an article in Back Street Heroes this month (page 56 or thereabouts) about brakes / master cylinders & braking forces which I really should read more closely. Apparently there is some science behind it all!
Yes, I remember vaguely from building off-road buggies and playing around with the size of master and wheel cylinders to adjust braking force and set the bias more towards the rear brakes, but can't recall it exactly off the top of my head (I'm going back 25 years now, crikey, had forgotten how long ago it was!).
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Jan 12th 2010.
New Year! & it
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Good progress Andy. Just make sure that the engine sprocket and the wheel sprocket are in line.
You can download a manual from the US site
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=17788.0
May be worth a read.
Good luck
Seamus
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Nice project Andy, cleaning the cylinders up is a real pain, i blasted mine but a friend of mine done his by submerging in a tank of thinners and leaving for a few days.
Pete
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Looking good,
Phil
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What about an F2 m/cylinder they run twin discs? Looking good by the way. ;D
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These might be of use to you if you've not sourced some elsewhere
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Thanks Matt. PM'd you regarding these.
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A quick update on progress (of sorts) but without any piccies at present.
Rolling chassis is making good progress - it's been a pain to match up the front axle but have now found a small engineering shop in Hertford who are willing to remake a spare rear axle to fit my forks. It means I'll have a 20mm front axle rather than a 15mm one so am also getting spacers and wheel centre tube made to fit. Speedo drive will be junked as I'm using a bicycle one. Appropriate wheel bearings arrived from www.simplybearings.co.uk - fast and efficient service & a great website....just forgot to order the head bearings too!
At the back, my swingarm appears to be dodgy. Scraping off paint reveals a lot of filler around the inner arms at the front (ie the inside of the "U" shaped - and with paint underneath the filler, so I can only assume this isn't a factory moulding. Will post some piccies to get your thoughts on this soon but I'm now looking for an alternative s/arm. This one will do for now to get the bike built.
The rear axle is a CB400 17mm one combined with the CB400 wheel. All slots together and just requires additional spacers - again, piccies to follow. One minor issue is that the chain adjuster slots are a little over 17mm so require a top hat spacer to fill this out. Also, my CB650 chain adjusters are far wider than the 550 swingarm so a bit of a gap which is currently filled with a 4mm spacer either side. Again, requires either the correct adjusters or a strengthening plate welding to the s/arm to handle the 650's spacers and associated power increase. I think this second option will be the chosen one.
I plan to redo the rear with the larger CB650 20mm axle which will involve new bearings, centre tube and spacers, but also needs the brake hub plate maching out to take the bigger axle. Depending on time this may or may not happen before I get her on the road.
Sourced a disc and a CB750F2 aftermarket mudguard plus assorted spacers for
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Progress is slow and steady! I've had a lot of parts delivered including exhaust, front mudguard, decent swingarm, loom, misc. bits & pieces. Piccies to follow.
Key thing has been sorting out the front axle. I've struggled to find one in the UK but then I found a cracking little machine shop in Hertford and decided I would have them machine down a spare rear axle to the right dimensions. Awesome spot - a one man band in a huge shed full of oily lathes and presses and lord knows what else. My favourite tool was a huge mechanical hacksaw that was steadily and slowly sawing through a huge lump of steel. Saw moving at about 60 cuts per minute so very relaxed - looked as if it would take all day to cut the block. The owners said it was a museum piece but he rather liked it & I was inclined to agree. Certainly more fun than looking on "fleabuy" for an axle.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/andy120t/P1010001.jpg)
In the photo the original front axle is at the back of the picture & you can see that the new one is far fatter (being a rear one originally). It's nicely stepped at one end to fit into the threaded fork bottom whilst the other end has a machined groove to take a retaining bolt.
I also needed to have wheel spacers and a bearing spacer for inside the wheel made up. In the foreground, the original bearing spacer is on the left and the new one on the right. You can also see the external spacers which will be either side of the wheel on the outside (I'm not running a speedo drive). They don't look too exciting but will do the job for the time being. Now I just need to make up the little tabs that hold the internal spacer in place, fit the wheel bearings and I'll be ready to roll!
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I have one of these old power haksaws, weighs a tonne but excellent bit of kit, shame is it needs welding and a new con rod to be back in commision. I use a clarke horizontal/ vertical one at the moment but it isn't a patch on the old saw. The motor on the bandsaw burnt out after 5 years very light use from new, I've now put the motor off the cast iron antique power hacksaw in it's place, still going after who knows how many years heaver use - it's so old that the motor is mounted using leather and steel as a vibration protection method. Quality kit. A lathe is a great piece of kit to have, I think mine has paid for itself several times over in the 5 or 6 years I've had it. Good to see progress is being made. A great project to see unfolding, right up my street, using whats available to make an interesting and useable bike.
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I've found time this weekend to complete my seat. Materials required for this were a seat base (made a few weeks ago from the casing of an old boiler), a
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...probably worth adding that my entire seat cost me under
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Loving this thread Andy, your project is looking really good! I've just joined and am restoring a rusty chassis and lump and two boxes of bits into hopefully a shiny CB650 Nighthawk (was going to keep it original, but just seen a CB650 hardtail chop on ebay which has caught my fancy!) Feel very inspired by your articles and picked up some good tips along the way! Please keep it coming!
Cheers
Philip
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Progress at last after 6 months of a new job and a tiny baby restricting my time in the cellar. I've now installed new head bearings & front wheel bearings & mounted the yokes & forks - piccies to follow over the weekend!
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...it's been an age since I posted, not least because my PC died and I lost all my piccies and my build log and my spreadsheet of costs. So I'm rather cross.
Brief update now - as I'm extra cross since I just wrote a long update then accidentally deleted it....grrr!
CB650 calipers are too deep for my spoked wheels so have sourced a set of GPz400R ones. Held my breath when they turned up as they are still deeper than I imagined but they are single piston only and don't appear to catch the spokes. I'm in the process of mounting them / making mounting plates so will soon see!
These will be combined with the master cylinder that came in my box of parts which is a CB one, although the reservoir on this is rather large and plastic & looks awful - so I'm thinking of sourcing an all alloy one. These appear to be shallower but I don't know which bike they are off so if anyone knows please let me know.
I've also poached the wide handlebars from another bike - about 88cm wide & these look great, howeve they have a fairly shallow rise and foul the air top-up valve on the top of my forks. One of those 1980's technological advances (air-assist forks) that ended up going nowhere and are now causing me irritation! Thats all for the moment - piccies to follow once the camera works again!
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A few piccies to summarise where I have got to.
New head bearings going in:
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/andy120t/headbearings.jpg)
Sourced calipers from a GPZ400R :
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/andy120t/frontbrake3.jpg)
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Last weekend it was finally warm for a while (unlike today!) so I headed to the shed & finally I got the engine back together - if you go back to the beginning of the thread you'll see that the rusted barrels were the a problem, now I have nice shiny ones in place.
I also put enought wiring in to prove the ignition worked - and found that I have sparks across two cylinders only. Need to fault find this weekend - but it seems to be either one side of the pick-ups or the connections feeding power to that side (I think). Coils are fine and swapping connections around indicated that both CDI's were OK. ..But it was getting cold by then so I need to recheck everything again.
Piccies to follow when I get a minute, but the end seems to be in sight (at least in terms of having a runner - cosmetics will follow that). Once she's sparking I'll feel confident to source (ie spend money on...) some carbs (the ones I have don't fit - prbably going to go with GPz600 ones having read some threads on these on the US forum) and consumables - tyres, chain, sprockets, exhaust gaskets, brake pads. Then just need to wire in the horn and brake lights and it'll be MOT time!
Other minor parts I'm short of are the lower rear engine mounting bolt, points cover and the rubber grommets that hold the sidepanels in place - so if anyone has any spares of these please let me know.
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Last weekend it was still cold but everything sparked! So both sides of the pick-ups are working. Both CDI's, and the one coil & spark plug I've tested. Result! I must just have been too cold to test properly the previous weekend.
I'm away this weekend so hope to have time to track down some carbs. I also need to test & wire in the starter relay & motor, but once those are all done here I'll just pop the carbs on and hopefully she'll fire up first time!
During the week I alo created a bespoke "parts-bin-special manual" using the appropriate parts pages from various online sources, namely:
Cb550 frame & forks & swing-arm
CB400 wheels
Cb650 engine
FZR100 starter relay
GPZ400r front brakes
GPZ600r carbs
Quite please with it really! A very entertaining 'read' on the train home.
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... I need to post some piccies; but as an interim - 'bike is now out of the cellar and I spent the bank holiday weekend putting the engine in. I tried frame over engine but with the wheels attached & long handlebars this wasn't really working, so I then lifted it in & that worked a treat. Surprisingly easy for one person althought I had to remove the rocker covers. GPZ600 brakes are on but not really working - master cylinder is from a trail bike & may be a little small for the job so I plan to swop this out & put in the standard one to check that it all works properly & to get through an MOT.
GPZ600 carbs slotted straight on and by the end of the long weekend all 4 cylinders were firing. - I had to piggyback fuel from my Triumph using a long fuel pipe so had a few concerns about the 650 going up in flames and taking my Triumph out too - however in the end it all went smoothly. Only problem is that it's not running fully on it's own, just firing, so the plan is now to clean the plugs, juggle the choke a bit more and try again. Also, I'm currently trying to run it without exhausts so I'm not sure if putting those on would help it run.
I also wired in the brake lights & horn so I have the MOT minimum in place for electrics.
Aside from that - I need tyres; chain & sprockets; two disc bolts and a few odd nuts & bolts and a number plate. Cosmetically, it's a little untidy but I want it running and MOT'd and then I'll move on to how it looks.
One final concern is that now it's all together the chain may not line up with the 400 sprocket/wheel hub, so I need to assess that this weekend & see if it needs solving - either with spacers behind the sprocket or alternatively I may go the need a 550 wheel route. Don't want to buy tyres until I've made that decisions.
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Managed to get quite a bit done over the last few weekend.
GPz carbs on . Original loom on the bike and plugged in. It seemed to be firing but it wasn
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That's come a long way andy120t, and much work to get it there.
Be interesting to see how it runs on the gpz carbs, I guess they should easily flow enough to let it make good power.
Thanks for taking the time to post for us to see as it's interesting to see something different come together, looks quite flat-trackish.
Don't know if you are aware that if you want copper washers to seal well it's best to soften them first by heating to red hot and dropping into cold water. this should give you the best chance of working with the threads you have left.
let us know how the mot pans out and also what it's like to ride.
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Looking good, and an interesting thread, right up my street, keeping to a budget and making a good workable machine from odds and sods. Great result though a bit shiny (I prefer rust on my bikes) does look like it will be very sweet when finished.
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Thanks for the comments!
..no MOT yesterday..exhaust isn't yet silenced / sealed - bought a silencer but now need to find a collar to fit it with as the diameter is a couple of mm more than my header pipe.
Sealed the engine - tried anealing the copper washer in the oven but couldn't get the temp. high enough...they have to get to 6/700 degrees to turn red. Anyway, I hand-filed a bolt to the exact length of the hole in then engine and that gave me enough grip to seal using the existing washer. Very pleased that there'll be no helicoiling for now.
Drilled & fitted the numberplate & stuck a reflector on. Plate is legal, back-end of th ebike is skinny with a very skinny tyre so it all looks faintly ridiculous. Will need to source a smaller version for other occasions.
Chain & sprockets on & aligned using the spacers I had in place already so pleased with that.
Two final probs. Fuel tap seems to be missing a brass pipe (where the fuel line mounts). It has a single one and a thredaded hole for a second. Petrol is coming out of both which is a bit of a pain. Any ideas where I can source a spare for this?..Anyone have a spare one lying around?
Engine won't run fully. I still had the plug leads on the wrong cylinders so after a few huge backfires I reviewed the wiring diagram and finally got this right. Now it runs on full choke only but dies the moment I touch th throttle..not sure if this is a grubby carb problem or related to me using CV/diapraghm carbs rather than mechanical ones...Will do some online research on this, but any thoughts on this please let me know.
.....So, no MOT yet!
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The carbs should be able to run that motor, some are even using bike CV carbs on car engines for example so they should be able to be configured to get it going. and I'd guess at the original demands being not that far off what you need to at least get some half sensible response from it.
Assume they are all in good order i.e. clean clear and minty with good diaphram sealing?
Fuel pipe, can you use anythng from a car spares shop as they sometimes have copper of varying sizes available.
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My worry was that there might be a need to have a vacuum pipe linked to the fuel tank. However, the carbs are filling with fuel and as I understand it the vacuum element of the carb. is primarily related to raising / lowering the needle; rather than drawing fuel down.
So, with the 'bike running the carbs should work. Since they aren't, I'm assuming that the jets may be blocked so need to give them a good flush through with carb cleaner as a first step.
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Usually the vacuum pipe to the fuel tank is only to turn the fuel supply on and off by using a small diaphram operated valve inside the tap.
If the tap hasn't got this then it should just be gravity flow when it's switched on.
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I think I always knew that the solution to 'not starting' would be a carb strip and rebuild...I was just trying to avoid it!
I've had all the jets out and soaking in carb cleaner which loosened up most of the gunge. Amazing how rock hard and 100% blocked they all were - especially the pilot jets. Anyway, all cleaned up now- I've always understood it's a bad idea to clean the jets with wire, however the petrol in the pilot jets was rock hard...a bit of surfing told me that the wires on a wire brush would be narrorer than the narrowet pilot jet drilling/diameters - (from memory .16mm for the wire bristles vs .32mm for the tiniest pilot jet drillings....so I gently tried it out & found that the wire bristles easily fitted and helped me prod clean the gunge. By contrast, a safety pin and a needle (both of which look pretty narrow to the naked eye) were far too fat and would definitely have enlarged the holes.
Rsult of all this is that she fired up straightaway, without any choke - so a good result.
Still not MOT'd though - primarily because my fork seals (brand new and on pretty decent chrome stanchions) have leaked a river of fluid whilst standing in the shed. Given that the bike has barely moved since I put these in I can't understand why. A look at the parts diagram indicates that there may be a need for a washer between the seal and the seal circlip. I've not come across this before so am wondering if this will press it more tightly against the forks (?) However, I can't think that this would be the case so I'm currently baffled.
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Hi Andy sounds like your making progress, i have used the wire out of sandwich bag ties as its very thin to clear pilot jets, don't know about the fork seals?,good luck with the rest of it ;), cheers Mick.
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I'm considering the possibility that I've put the seals in upside down...never done this before but I was so intrigued by the amount of tissue paper stuffed in between the seal and the seal cover that I may have been distracted.....
Clearly someone couldn't stretch to the price of a new pair of seals at some stage!
Hopefuly get time to check this weekend.
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Well - Christmas, cold and various other excitements have got in they way - but I'm finally progressing again.
- First time round it was raining and miserable and having put in new seals, they proceeded to leak.
- Second time it started sunny then, as I was stripping the forks in the garden (again) it promptly turned cold and rainy and I got soaked. Re-fitted the seals, this time one seal leaked.
- Third time, I stripped and rebuilt the leaky one in the cellar and....finally....it has sealed. Clearly the fact that I had laid in some Bandit 600 yokes to fit my 'spare' GSXR forks meant the old fork/seal combo new they were headed for the tip if they didn't work this time. (Alternatively, warm cellar and no rain trickling down my neck might have enabled me to fir them square rather than slightly wonky...never done that before though!)
Which just leaves - slightly spongy brakes and a slightly stripped fork bottom (which houses the end of the axle rather than having a nut) as potential problems before I'm properly on the road this year! Nearly there.
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Just enjoying reading through your build thread again Andy, couldn't help notice your frame.
It looks more like a K frame to me, I ain't an expert so forgive me if I'm wrong. The way I identify them is that the F frames' rear footrest loop is kinda like an equilateral triangle, whereas the K frames' loop is more longer and flatter triangle, if you know what I'm trying to say.
Frame
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I have to confess, I'm not an expert on the differences on the frames; I just read the log-book! I'll keep an eye out on any other 550's I see though.
.....took my Triumph 5TA for a succesful MOT last weekend so I'm re-energised for 2012......so now (almost) all bikes are MOT'd for the spring, but Parts Bin Special is choosing not to start and also leaking a lot of (nice, clean) oil from what appears to be the rocker cover / cylinder joint.
Two possibilities:
- Not torqued down enough
- I missed out an O-ring during the rebuild
I'm hoping it's the first; don't mind if it's the second....anything else then who knows what it could be. Hope to get shed-time on Sunday to confirm.
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Unbelieveably, the last post on this thread was March last year ...and very little progress made since then; motiviation was flagging as my forks/seals would absolutely not seal...fluid was literally gushing out and the thought of another strip and rebuild in the 'outdoor workshop' was too much (having been rained on during the previous 2x fork rebuild.
..... on the plus side I now have a new house with large garage and I can work inside and out of the elements!
So, when last parked up Parts Bin Special needed the following for MOT:
- to put in working fork seals
- stop a leak from one of the carbs (probably a stuck float / overflow)
- be reasonably happy with the noisy exhaust
- I also noticed that I had an oil leak from one side of the cylinder so I may have missed an o-ring from an oil passageway during the rebuild.
Feeling remotivated I've now stripped one fork and rechecked all the dimensions of the seals and the stanchions; then checked my original order form Wemoto - correct seals had been supplied, so they mush be faulty. David Silver then supplied some pattern parts and these have gone in .... and the forks are sealed now. Result! I need now to complete the second side and reinstall works / wheel etc.
In the picture (if attaching works!) the working seals are in the packaging and have springs in - they've been pretty hard to insert into the forks. The third one is the leaky one and has no visible spring in it - just wondered if this is the reason why it doesn't work at all. Regardless, it was relatively easy to install so maybe jsut poor manufactuing tolearances.
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No pics. You may want to try www.photobucket.com to upload your photos, from there you can share to any site.
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Piccies from photbucket...
leaky seals - although this doesn't actually show how horrendous they were.....imagine that whole area swimming in fork fluid...
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/andy120t/2013%20CB650%20rebuild/leakyfork-hardtoseetheleak.jpg) (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/andy120t/media/2013%20CB650%20rebuild/leakyfork-hardtoseetheleak.jpg.html)
..and lovely new seals from David Silver. The un-packaged one is the old one and doesn't have a visibile spring in it...and it was nowhere near as hard to install as the DS ones.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/andy120t/2013%20CB650%20rebuild/workingforksealsarrived.jpg) (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/andy120t/media/2013%20CB650%20rebuild/workingforksealsarrived.jpg.html)