Honda-SOHC
Other Stuff => Member 4 Sales => Topic started by: Oddjob on September 12, 2022, 05:56:32 PM
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Made some sets of felt washers, I've made a few sets of the felt washers fitted to the swinging arm bushes on the 500-4 and some others, part number 52145-283-000. 2 are needed.
I've also made some for the lifter arms of the carbs on the 400F, 500K,550K1/2 and 550F. 4 are needed. There is no part number for these washers as they come in a set and they ain't cheap.
As yet I haven't been able to replicate the ones used on the 400-4 choke arms, 7 are needed for those. When I can source some different sizes cutters I may be able to make these as well.
Lifter arm washer £5 a set inc P&P.
Swinging arm washers also £5 a set inc P&P. Or £2 a set if ordered with carb washers.
Most of the cost is actually postage I'm afraid, it's not cheap to post stuff these days. I've had to buy a £160 set of cutters to make these so selling these will help me recoup some of that I hope.
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I'll take a set of both
Thanks
Simon
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You still got the PayPal address Simon, £7 please.
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You still got the PayPal address Simon, £7 please.
Money sent Ken
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a set of both for lazarus please Ken, let me know total with the points cover and i will paypal the money. thanks
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Oddjod, Could you supply me with 4felt washers please and how do you want payment ? Card, Cash or limb 👍😀
Thanks
Cappodimonte.
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Limb please, arm if you can spare it.
£57 with points cover Mick.
£5 Cappodimonte, PayPal is fine. PM me for details and send it vis Friends and Family and also include your postal address.
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Can I have 3 sets of the carb felt washers 550f please Ken
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£9 3scs. I reckon £2 for a set and £3 for the postage. Seems fair to me.
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Payment sent thanks
Si
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Payment sent thanks
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Got to make a load more now, the carb washers seem very popular.
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Payment sent Ken😀👍
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Made another 11 sets of carb washers and 7 sets of swinging arm washers.
According to CMS the swinging arm felt washers are used on the CB350F, CB450, CL450, CB500, CB550K and CB750.
Andy yours will be posted tomorrow. All orders are either ready to be sent or already on their way.
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Have you got any 400/4 lifter arm sets left Ken? I'll have a set please if you have👍
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Arrived safe and sound :)
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Yes Dave, the lifter arms are the same as the 500/550 ones, it's the choke mechanism ones I can't make at present, I need to order some odd size cutters to be able to do those. Tried 10mm and 6mm and the bar just cuts them to bits when inserted, tried 8mm and 6mm and the wall is too thin for any strength and again the bar wrecks them. 6mm is too small for the inside, the bar is 6.8mm so the threads on the end of the choke bars just pull it to pieces going through. I have a 6.5mm cutter on order which may work.
Send me a PM Dave with your address and I'll advise on PayPal address, unless of course you've bought from me before, in which case you'll know it.
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Finally managed today to order some new cutters so I can attempt to make the choke mechanism washers. Not sure how long they'll take to arrive, I'll let you know when they do and how the attempt to recreate these washers go.
I have today done a couple of the brake arm washers that go between the brake arm and the brake plate on the 500. I have to hand make these as the sizes required mean they don't mount on the same tool at the same time, unlike the lifter arm ones. I had to order a special cutter to enable me to use both cutters on the same tool for the choke arm ones, whether this will work is up for debate.
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Well done Ken, your dilligence is appreciated.
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Manufacturer has posted them, we'll need to see when they are delivered in France, then reposted onto me. Could be a week or so before I can trial run these washers.
Another £100 for new cutters. Gonna take a while to get that money back, saying that if I do what Mike Nixon did and charge $5 each I'd make it back in no time. No idea how he could justify that price, they are easy to make with the right tools and felt isn't exactly dear. Most of my charges are postage.
Might throw a few sets on Ebay, widen the market so to speak.
Saying that, how do you justify this.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254973783563?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D242152%26meid%3D4482dd5c73ef4c7e976b8ce380709989%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D314106278968%26itm%3D254973783563%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DHonda&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A653673cd-38ef-11ed-b9f0-261dedc53b0f%7Cparentrq%3A5b45aca51830aa7105eaae8cfff79ba6%7Ciid%3A1
Initial cost is pretty reasonable, but look at the postal charges, there is NO weight in these items at all.
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Said free postage when i looked
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Says £19.40 on my screen.
Just looked at it was to the USA for some reason it thought I was there.
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Yes, free post, it's Fowlers of Bristol.
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I wonder how Fowlers can do that price, I mean £2.40 is a decent price for the washer alone but free postage, the cost these days would mean they are virtually giving those away.
News.
Cutters have arrived in France, they are now being sent onwards to me possibly tomorrow. Should have them with a week I reckon. I'll then do a test run and see how the choke washers come out. We can only hope.
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Its the discount they get from Honda and franked mail is cheaper than stamps mate.
Hope the new felts work or i am going to have to get creative for comfys carbs!
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Part number 45134-250-000 is only 47p trade price ;)
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That's a good price TBH.
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Cutters arrived today.
Results were not good. I got 6 different sizes, all around the size of the choke shaft and the opening the felt washers sits in.
A little explanation first. Most people make these washers by first of all cutting out either the large or the smaller openings, both have there plus and minus points. My tool has 3 positions for the cutters, the smaller ones thread onto the central boss, which is shaped like a hammer. These go up to 10mm, after 12mm you use the middle boss, these go up to 20mm, after that they can get pretty big and those use the outer and biggest boss. So in theory you can pair 2 or even 3 cutters together, which makes them ideal to make washers. The problem is the choke mechanism washers are small, the central shaft is 6.8mm wide and the opening is just under 9mm. Cutters in sets don't come in half sizes, fill mmm only. So the closest you can get is 6mm and 10mm but as explained these use the same threaded boss so you can't do that, so, you're back to the first method. Tried 6mm and 10mm before deciding they don't work, 10mm is slightly too big to go in the opening and 6mm is too small for the shaft, yoiu can force them in there but the shaft is threaded and when you go to push it through the threads catch the felt and just rip it too bits.
So new cutters are required. I bought 6.5mm, 7.5mm(just in case), a special 6.9mm one(you never know), a 9mm, a 9.5mm and a very special 10mm one that been made to use the middle boss instead of the central threaded boss.
So I tried 6.9 x 9.5 first, had to cut them by hand and frankly it's as good as impossible, most tear as the wall is only 1.35mm wide and that's if you get the cutters 100% central, most go off centre and that's that ruined. So you need to increase the wall size, so 6.5 x 9.5, nope, still virtually impossible. You need 7 of these for each bank of carbs, making one involves numerous failures. I could make a set if you're willing to pay £20 for 7 as I'd ruin 90% of them making them. I tried 6.9 x 9 and 6.5 x 9 and still not much better.
I'd already tried the special 10mm cutter which allows double cuts so makes perfect washers virtually everytime, however I didn't like how they fitted, so went back to the first method again.
So can I make them?
Yes and No.
Yes, I can so long as I use 10mm x 6.9mm, the inner hole is big enough not to foul the threads as they pass through, so you can actually thread the felt washer onto the shaft on one side, pass it through the carb body and then fit the other side, I tried that and it's possible, a thin screwdriver and you can actually get the washer to sit inside the opening, a little thin oil on it and it would also lubricate the shaft as it moves as well as sealing it from outside dust and air ingress.
As per pic.
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0PhmwVG/IMG-2847.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/q6qS50vB)
Bryan you want to be the test dummy? if you say they are ok I'll do some more, if you say no then I'll not do them.
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I will happily do that Ken, send some down and i will try and build asap mate
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Hi Ken,
anything new on this topic with felt washers?
I can check with local company who did D-rings last time, maybe they can do also these felt washers too?
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Emy, i did try the choke felts that ken made but attrition rate was about 50% as they broke up easily. If we could get impregnated felt it may well be easier as the grease/oil would hold the felt together
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I'll try and source another grade of felt Erny, I've broken quite a few on the choke arms BUT the last ones were much better. Bryan found them easy to break BUT TBH I found them ok but then I've had far more practice with how the break, what causes them to break so I can understand why Bryan found them hard to fit.
Watch this space.
No harm in asking the firm I suppose but it could be a problem if say they make a few hundred for you and then you find they also break easily and then you're stuck with a set of really small, really expensive doilies.
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I'm not sure if the felt is going to last but you can get 13mm diameter felt buffing wheels for a Dremel. I sliced mine to a suitable thickness with a very sharp blade and then punched out a central hole. Just a thought as a source. (Fleabay etc)
Matt
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I'll try and source another grade of felt Erny, I've broken quite a few on the choke arms BUT the last ones were much better. Bryan found them easy to break BUT TBH I found them ok but then I've had far more practice with how the break, what causes them to break so I can understand why Bryan found them hard to fit.
Watch this space.
No harm in asking the firm I suppose but it could be a problem if say they make a few hundred for you and then you find they also break easily and then you're stuck with a set of really small, really expensive doilies.
I'll ask them - not sure I missed some info, did not find it quicky - what are required dimensions I shall ask please?
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9.6 x 8mm Erny.
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Ok, so just 1,6mm wide "wall' really small - let's see what they say
Do you know also "thickness"?
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Whilst we are talking about felt seals on the throttle shafts, does the 'flanged washer' retain the felt seal? If so, is the flange on the outside?
(Hope I have described that correctly!)
Matt
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IIRC the sequence for the throttle shafts, starting from the throttle arm itself is Cupped washer, spring, flat washer, flanged washer, felt washer and on the inside of the carb boy there is a nylon washer. Just off memory. The cupped washer retains the spring, the flat washer is for the spring to sit against, flanged washer presses against the felt washer which fits inside a recess in the carb body, So I tend to fit the felt washer first after soaking it in light oil so it lubes the shaft running through it and also aids in dust retention and sealing, the flanged washer is the same size as the felt washer so no it doesn't sit on it, the flanged washer is to centralise the shaft of the throttle lifter and also to keep the felt washer pressed into place. The flange faces inside toward the carb body.
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Ok, so just 1,6mm wide "wall' really small - let's see what they say
Do you know also "thickness"?
I'm using around 1.5mm felt Erny, and yes the wall is the problem, I did get the measurements wrong though, slightly confused myself with the throttle lifter shafts as well.
The choke shaft is actually 7mm wide at the part where it sits inside the felt washer, the recess in the carb body is actually a fraction over 9mm. So you'd need a 9 x 7mm washer. That leaves a 1mm wall each side, which is where the problem lies, it's so thin it just breaks when any stress is put on it, the threads on the choke shafts can catch it as it passes through and just rip it to bits. IMO, the way to fit them it to slide the first felt washer over the choke shaft, fit the shaft into the carb body and then slide the next one on. You can then poke it into position with a very thin screwdriver and finally fit the rest. I'd soak them in light oil first to see if that helps to strengthen them, a small amount of movement of the choke shaft would have to be made to ensure the first felt washer sat down into position before trying to fit the second.
I did just that on my 500 carbs and had almost no problems but I had to use a larger diameter washer at 10mm not 9mm due to how my cutter works, explained above in post 27. This makes them harder to fit as you need to compress the washers at 10mm into a 9mm opening but it's just felt and it compresses easily. Harder felt may be the answer but may make it worse as trying to compress that could make getting it into position harder. Ideally you want 9 x 7 but I cannot cut that size due to limitations in the cutter design.
Hope that helps.
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IIRC the sequence for the throttle shafts, starting from the throttle arm itself is Cupped washer, spring, flat washer, flanged washer, felt washer and on the inside of the carb boy there is a nylon washer. Just off memory. The cupped washer retains the spring, the flat washer is for the spring to sit against, flanged washer presses against the felt washer which fits inside a recess in the carb body, So I tend to fit the felt washer first after soaking it in light oil so it lubes the shaft running through it and also aids in dust retention and sealing, the flanged washer is the same size as the felt washer so no it doesn't sit on it, the flanged washer is to centralise the shaft of the throttle lifter and also to keep the felt washer pressed into place. The flange faces inside toward the carb body.
Mmm, I think I have used the wrong terminology! I'm referring to the smaller felt washers on the butterfly shafts.....
Matt
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That's the choke Matt.
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That's the choke Matt.
Of course it is! ::)
So, does the little flanged washer on these spindle 'trap' the felt washer? Looks like that is the way it should be.....
Matt
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Can't say for certain Matt as I don't have a set of 400 carbs, the 500/550 uses the same choke type mechanism though so I'd say so unless someone else can say for certain.
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This shows pretty much everything on the 400 carbs.
https://www.vintagebikebuilder.com/cb350-400f-carb-rebuild-demonstration.html
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This shows pretty much everything on the 400 carbs.
https://www.vintagebikebuilder.com/cb350-400f-carb-rebuild-demonstration.html
Ted, I read that a while back, however the carbs were never fully dismantled - ie the butterflies were not taken apart so I could not establish the correct orientation of felt washer etc etc.
This video, although not the same carb, I think, points me in the right direction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXAn0SVSk9E&t=799s&ab_channel=Dude%27sGarage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXAn0SVSk9E&t=799s&ab_channel=Dude%27sGarage)
Matt
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Still making these if anyone wants any.
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Some news on making the choke mechanism felt washers.
After speaking with a felt manufacturer today I have finally sourced some really dense felt. I've managed to source some 3mm felt in a firm texture and some 2mm in a medium texture. I'll see which is best and will try and make some and see how they come out.
I did notice that the 500/550 carbs whilst not appearing to have these seals on the choke mechanism actually do, they are hidden in the carb body and are almost certainly left in place when you ultra sonic clean the carbs, what that does to them is anyone's guess. I'm trying to remember if they are only fitted on one end of the shaft opening or if there are actually 2 of them to seal each end. If so that would mean you'd need 7 as No4 carb is capped off at the end.
I'll let you all know the result when the felt arrives in a couple of days.
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Put me down for a pair of 500 swing arm felt washers please Ken.
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Probably make those out of the 3mm felt Ash.
I told the manufacturers what I was currently using and they described that as Fuzzy Felt washers, made me laugh. I remember that very well.
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The felt finally arrived. Had a go at making some choke shaft washers. I made some in 3mm extra firm and that was a no go, 3mm is too thick for that location. When the brass insert tries to go back in the washer won't allow it and pushes it back out again. 2mm medium is fine however. The extra firmness of this felt means they stay together much better than my previous felt, the shaft goes back inside the carb body without pulling them to pieces as well.
This was tested on a carb body off a 500/550. I wasn't aware that there was even a felt washer on the shaft until recently, they don't exactly stand out.
Here's what they look like against the newly made ones, although the new one seems a bit bigger this is because the old one has been compressed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNRGfWPL/IMG-3423.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XppNw2py)
And in situ, excuse my bad attempt at labelling, No.1 is the retaining bush and No.2 is the old felt in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzLjxZk8/IMG-3418.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/p5PhWKZJ)
So to get to them I used a small pick and just prised out the retaining bush. Which looks like this when removed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFG4Fz11/IMG-3419.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rM0LmN0)
Bush removed, old felt washer picked out and new one inserted. Not exactly a great pic I'm afraid.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7FhZKrT/IMG-3420.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VSjkJd5G)
At this point I'd advise oiling the washer with some silicon oil. Just refit the brass retainer ring and knock it back into place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XhgyZ47/IMG-3421.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tZkRzw3F)
And that's it. I'd advise turning the choke shaft as it's refitted to try and avoid dragging at the new felt.
There are 7 felt washers fitted to a bank of carbs, No4 carb only has one fitted due to it being blanked off at the end.
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They look good Ken. I'll ask the inevitable question.....are you going to make them for the 400? I've got a set of your choke spindle felts ready to fit when I overhaul the carbs.
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AFAIK Dave they are the same for the 350/400/500/550 carbs
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Nice one Ken! Id be up for a set when production is up and running.
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I will also have a set please Ken when they go into full production 👍
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I have 3 full sets of 7 ready made. You want to be test pilots?
I'll pop them in the post Johnny and Dave if you post your findings on them on here. If they are fit for use then I'll start to sell them.
Got Daves address but not yours Johnny, send me a PM with it if you want a set.
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I’ll PM Ken.