Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => Project Board => Topic started by: beemsquar on July 21, 2015, 11:40:07 AM
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Hi all, This is my first ever motorcycle build and I thought I would share the journey with the community as you have been very helpful with your advice and maybe it will help others doing similar projects.
I acquired the vehicle on the 03/07/15 from an old guy who had had it since 2012 and had started to do some jobs on it, (badly as it turns out).
It read 46000 on the odometer and looked like this in the advert.
[attachimg=1]
I went to see the bike and it was already partly dismantled with what I think are constar wheels? off another bike.
I spent a good hour looking over it to see if the major bits were there, the guy started it up and it sounded OK, apart from blowing from the exhaust, which he told me was because they weren't tightened up yet. He assured me that he had acquired a lot of parts and everything was there. Knowing that I wanted a project bike that needed some TLC we haggled and I took her off his hands for £900.
I've set myself a loose budget of £1000 to rebuild and no more than 10 months to complete so I can ride it next summer.
I plan on doing most if not all the work myself , but might need some advice and guidance along the way.
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This is going to be interesting to follow. Good luck with her.
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Day 1
Ok I got it home, pulled her out the back of the van down the ramp with no brakes attached and the bloody back wheel fell off nearly squashing me underneath!
Luckily my neighbour was passing and helped me carry it into the garage.
[attachimg=1]
Let the work commence!
I got to stripping it down straight away, I had already ordered and received a haynes manual and a clymer manual for the process and started taking LOTS of pictures so I now where things go later.
By the end of day 1 it looked like this.
[attachimg=2]
on closer inspection there were a few problems emerging, 1.the side stand had been badly repaired and was welded at the wrong angle so the bike is leaning excessively. I will sort this out at a later date once the frame is stripped. 2.the centre stand has been hacked off and is in one of the boxes of bits!
I decided that once I had removed and stored some of the frame components, I would rebuild the original wheels that he supplied with the bike as my first big job, so I could work out the stance of the bike and sort that stand angle out!
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Cheers tom400f, i'm not to far along with it yet, and have already ran into a few problems, I guess all is to be expected with an old bike.
Hopefully I can keep a good momentum going!
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Day 2
Ok while stipping her down I had noticed a few things, the front headlamp is off a suzuki, and while inspecting the exhaust it is blown on two downpipes and on the collector box, and there is no muffler! How did I miss that.
There's a chunk of my budget gone already :-[
Ash from this forum had kindly sent me a dropbox link with a parts list, which I have been going through in the evenings to see what I'm missing and the list is getting longer! I was originally going to restore to factory condition using all genuine parts, but I'm not sure my budget will stretch that far. It seems the old girl has had a harder life than I first thought.
I think I might modify it into a cafe racer/brat style bike, still using the best original parts with some OEM stuff now.
Ok wheel job today, the PO had just had the original rims chromed, but it was a terrible job and flaking off already, so Ive decided to get them blasted and possibly powder coated satin black?
They don't look bad in this but they are pretty crap in person.
[attachimg=1]
Here's the hubs once removed
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
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What a shame about the chroming :(
As for the exhaust system - if you were going for standard then when last sighted Dave at Saisei had a full repro set in stock: http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,8467.msg57828.html#msg57828
Budget permitting ;)
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Day 3,4,5
I ordered the special tool and removed the bearing retainer caps, a pig of a job as they were loctited in, I did as others have mentioned and drilled out the stakes, which helped massively! well worth the £38 they cost to buy in my opinion. I ordered new retainer parts as I thought they might get pretty chewed up in the removal process, so I will replace these too.
The hubs have now had the bearings removed, I have cleaned all the internals and hub axles too. I have got an Allballs bearing and dust seal kit, o rings to install both back and front and Ferodo rear brake shoes to fit, but first I am sending the hubs off to be powder coated before I install the bearings.
[attachimg=1]
Bolts before and after being wire wheeled
[attach=3] [attach=4]
In the meantime I have been cleaning all the wheel components ready for assembly as unfortunately the media blaster guy is away on holiday for a week so they can't be painted until then.
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Thats not a bad price Tom, I think David Silver is more than that for a complete system. Although I am not going completely original, I don't want to stray to far down the wrong path, the whole reason I got a 400 four was the way it looked and what I've heard about being fun to ride, I love the standard exhaust look too, something special.
I'm only 32, but have always appreciated classics over modern stuff, there's something about how temperamental they are that appeals to me and I think that's what gives them character. Sure its nice to just turn something on and go, but when you have to get your hands dirty and truly understand what and why something isn't doing what it's supposed to, it makes it more rewarding when it does.
That and the shear seat of your pants experience you get with old stuff!
I've never ridden a real motorbike before, only a DT50 from the age of 16-18, I passed my theory test last Friday and have my training and test for my A licence in September, so the plan is to get her built over the winter ready for shakedown test and running in in the spring.
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Day 6 to 17
Lots of stripping and cleaning parts the last 2 weeks, I've got a box of bits off to the media blaster, but he's doing it as a favour so nothing back as of yet.
Heres a few before blasting.
[attach=1] [attach=2]
I bought some Jizer and clutch cleaner to clean the engine, it has made some difference but it was very dirty. I think this bike must have been used off road as it was thick with mud! I'm thinking of powdercoating the crankcase, (not the block as I have put in another thread!) so it needs to be super super clean to prevent peeling later.
I contacted simple green who make an environmentally friendly cleaner/degreaser that the aviation and medical industry use that is tough enough to strip an engine but kind enough to clean food equipment
It's pricey though, I bought 3 946 ml bottles with 1 free for £37.99 inc delivery, but for degreasing an engine you dilute it 1:10 with water, so I figure its not that bad. I got it from here, I'll let you all know how I get on with it.
http://www.simplegreen.co.uk/index.php/domestic-products
Time to start on removing the engine next while I wait for parts.
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Be warned - the repro headers are only single skinned. But yours are scrap so choice is that or get some sound originals and rechrome. Silencer from Dave as per.
You'll get on with Mick (Green1). He's about your age and thinks the same with classic bikes.
My son did his full license (24+) a few weeks ago after 3 months on a CBF125 and a few hours training on a Diversion (or something like that). He now rides a Suzuki Bandit though...
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Hi beemsquar,
Good luck with the project - looks like you have made a good start already.
Here's another alternative for the exhaust. Original style, stainless so no rot and looks a reasonable price (cheaper than others).
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB400-4-4-1-Stainless-steel-pipes-and-collector-by-Motad-/161768793224
I have one of their non-stainless systems on my own 400, it's OK for the money.
If you find other bits you need you can always try a 'Desperately Seeking' post on here, someone may have what you need gathering dust.
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Day 17 to 19
I have now removed the engine from the frame, which was not fun on my own!
[attach=1]
I'm not sure this is normal but , I struggled to remove the front engine bracket as there were a stack of washers on the crankcase bolts that made those bolts and the bracket bolts so close I couldn't get a spanner on them. should this have been like this?
[attach=2]
And while I was taking that picture I noticed this!!!!
[attach=3]
Not sure if this is fixable or not???
The last few days I have been slowly working on dismantling the engine, ready for a deep clean and overhaul, I sprayed all the bolts with a penetrating liquid over a few days. I started to remove the rocker cover when snap! the first bolt I touched with hardly any pressure broke off in the head, there are screws and bolts on my rocker cover and I'm unsure if that is standard or other bodge on this poor old girl??? But the inevitable happened and a screw also snapped in the head with the lightest of turns.
[attach=4]
Hopefully they can be drilled out!!
Cheers for the link Chris, I will have a look at that good to keep your options open.
I looked at an original on 400fourbits, so might get an original used one yet, He's got a lot of parts I need so might doing a bulk order soon!
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Day 20
So I removed the Rocker cover yesterday and found this nasty surprise, just plain lazy if you ask me!
[attach=1]
It removed OK, but will need replacing. when I get to put this back together should I replace the copper washers?
I removed the sprocket, cam chain slipper and tensioner and then proceeded with the removal of the head, which was surprisingly simple and got my first site of the pistons a little cruddy, but I was expecting worse, I guess it's been running too rich???
[attach=2]
I proceeded with the removal of the block yesterday as I want to clean everything in one go so again it came off quite easily.
[attach=3]
As soon as the block was off piston number four gave up a piston ring to the crankcase! Definitely about time this thing had a tear down!
[attach=4]
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A nice variety of bolts you have there ;). With care and patience those sheared bolts should repair. Give them a good soak with penetrating oil plus heat the surrounding alloy before drilling. Try using left hand drills incrementing in size. If you are real lucky the stub might free off and spin out on the drill tip leaving you to just clean up the case thread with a tap.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LEFT-HAND-STUB-DRILLS-65MM-7-4MM-/281739868990?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item4199013b3e
As mentioned earlier, I do have one complete exhaust set left if interested. Yes, the downpipes are single skinned but this should not be an issue if the carbs are set up correctly.
http://www.saisei-europe.com/Shop/Products/c/exhaust/p/new-cb400f-silencer
Good luck with the project, I will watch this one with interest :)
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Day 21
Cheers for the advice saisei, I will check out the link and have a think about the exhausts, they do look good!
Today I wanted to get the pistons off the conrods and measure and inspect everything before I go any further.
I removed the pistons again not as hard as I thought, but when I removed the gudgeon pins they felt slightly ridged and marked, is this normal wear or a thrashed motor?
[attach=5][attach=1]
I measured all the pistons and bores (with my cheap digital calipers mind), they were all slightly out from each other but the worst measurements were these....
[attach=2] [attach=3]
I am going by a clymer and haynes manual, but from what they recommend, I think I could be in for a set of oversized pistons and a rebore?! Not what I wanted to hear.
There is also a slight gouge down bore number 2 that I couldn't get in a photo, so what are the options for me guys? By a used block and pistons or rebore and replace with oversized? What sort of cost am I looking at?
The other thing I had two pistons marked with the number 4 and 2 marked number 3, is that normal??? All four were original honda mind, thought maybe they were already oversized???
[attach=4]
So thats where I'm at at the moment, I was going to split the crank and order a gasket set, replacement stainless steel bolts and all the engine seals today, but I might wait and see what responses I get first!
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Crikey slow down!
http://www.cmsnl.com/products/piston-set-025_00000kit0506/#.Va5hHvkYFys
0.25 oversize kit (after market). Anyone know if these are good?
Packing washers - previous knob couldn't match the bolt lengths and got lazy? May be you'll find a short one elsewhere in the cases ::)
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I agree with Tom, quite possibly just the wrong bolt in that hole and a lazy owner.
If you look at the parts list you will find all the bolt lengths are given in there so you can check what should be fitted (M8 x 114 I think).
(Personally I find a paper copy is useful to have as well as an electronic one and was a good investment; maybe that's just me!).
I suspect it is possible to buy a replacement set of bolts from somewhere, but that's more expense.
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The crankcase has packing washers on every bolt too! I will definitely replace all the bolts with new and clean up all the internal threads, possibly buy a full stainless steel hex set or just ordinary bolt set.
At least that way I won't have any issues when I come to torque everything up and I know i've done the best I can.
I might try and print the parts list off at work tomorrow as I agree, it's much easier to thumb the pages then read on a laptop with oily hands.
Tom, that looks a reasonable price for a full set of pistons, I was looking at this on eBay.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391177502510?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Any ideas why the gudgeon pins would look like that and the piston ring disintegrated on removing the block?
I didn't test the cylinder pressure before I dismantled as I didn't have the tool to do it and had already bought a shed load of specialist tools and hardly any parts for the bike at that point, wish I had now just to have some more info.
So how can I tell if it's already had a rebore? Someones clearly had the head off at some point and maybe the block, not sure what signs to look for, It looks pretty clean inside for its age and all things considered.
I've only tinkered on old cars in the past and they have always been a lot worse inside, especially the Triumph Spitfire I restored a few years back, but that turned out alright in the end, hopefully this will too, maybe just more money than I first anticipated.
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Thats a normal looking pin and you can "Feel" wear with your finger that can not be measured with a Mic so as you are going oversize dont worry, piston rings do break, more on some models than others, if you had a K4 250 and did not let it warm up before you rode hard it would shatter rinrs
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I might try and print the parts list off at work tomorrow as I agree, it's much easier to thumb the pages then read on a laptop with oily hands.
If you have the time and facilities then by all means print the list, otherwise at £12 delivered this one seems good value:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-Parts-List-Book-CB400F-400-4-400-Four-1970s-Reproduction-Original-Honda-/251407786645?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a89126295
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Bryanj, thats good to know thats normal looking, I've never had to do this before to know the difference.
Chris, I have that part book in PDF so I may as well print it for now and save some pennies for engine parts! Its a good manual though and has helped me identify some of the parts I'm missing so far.
I just had a closer look at the cam and the cylinder head and the cam tolerances are just within the wear limits according to the clymer manual, but I might just replace it to be sure.
[attach=1]
It also looks like a new head might be in order as the cam bearings are very deeply scored as you can see in this picture.
[attach=2]
If I went down the acquiring a used head, would I have to get it skimmed to match the block face?
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Chris, I have that part book in PDF so I may as well print it for now and save some pennies for engine parts! Its a good manual though and has helped me identify some of the parts I'm missing so far.
Take your point entirely, your rebuild is going to be an expensive business!
If you get some of those plastic ring-binder wallets and put the pages in you won't even get the pages oily.
With cost saving in mind I was curious and had a look to see how the exhaust prices compare.
Saisei headers and collector only are £327.60. Motad starting price is £129.99 (both + carriage).
You pays your money and you takes your choice, and to some extent maybe get what you pay for, but that's a lot of pennies difference.
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Wow that's a massive difference in price! And a 10 year guarantee. Where did you see that deal Chris? Motad's website shows no price and possibly out of stock.
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Motad is a member here and very friendly. Look up motad uk in the members list and pm Ian. They may be making more of the stainless ones if that's taking your fancy.
Broken rings: interesting what Bryan says. Member ManicGTI has the same problem and posted pics. Check his thread. Most likely the broken bits stayed in the groove.
Yes I thought your cam journals looked suspect in the pics :( oh well.
These days it seems hex bolts are out of fashion. Back in the day it was the thing to do! Now originality is prized and anyway hex bolts (I mean allen bolts) retain water :o
Keep it coming
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Do the pistons have any oversize markings? Would expect them to be on the crown but may be the recessed part of the skirt.
Crankcase bolts... Haynes chapter 1 section 44 for all your bolt order and position needs! If I could do it as a naive 19 y/o then it can't be that hard :P
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Wow that's a massive difference in price! And a 10 year guarantee. Where did you see that deal Chris? Motad's website shows no price and possibly out of stock.
It's in their eBay shop: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB400-4-4-1-Stainless-steel-pipes-and-collector-by-Motad-/161768793224
Just over a day left on the auction as I write this, and it's a lot cheaper than their chrome version I bought from DSS last year.
For a silencer there are various ones available when you look around, such as this one at £105 delivered:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-400-4-CB400-4-Four-Silencer-UK-Made-/371359425604?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5676bf2444
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My bid is in on the S/S downpipes :D. The silencer is Brituro has anyone used them?
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Cheers for the replies guys.
I read ManicGTI's post, very interesting, possibly the same problem, maybe I should have checked the compression first? Tom I see your point about hex heads, I think a new bolt set might be more fitting to a classic build. I would like to keep the engine as original as possible, I think I might even shy away from painting it yet and just get it blasted, so many decisions!
I haven't checked the pistons for oversize markings yet, but I will do when I finish work later.
I'm going to try and split the crankcase later so I can make a full shopping list of parts. I was reading Royhalls experience on here last night about getting the right colour main bearing shells, lets hope I don't need black ones!
You never know the bottom end could be fine, here's to hoping anyway.
As for the exhausts and mufflers, if anyone has either of these or others on there bikes I would love to see a video clip to hear the differences!
I think the sound is as important as the aesthetics.
I don't want anything too loud, but a bit of low growl would be nice!
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I would use OEM bolts for the crankcase half's. Pistons "should" have their oversize marked on the flat next to the piston pin, but I have a set of Honda +25's with no markings. Ade at cga fabrications in Poole can do weld repairs on alloy cases 01202 747405.
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Crikey! Are there any cam bearings in there?
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No cam bearings in a 400F Dave, just the alloy.
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Ah thats my bad dave, I'm still new to the terminology!
Cheers sweetpeauk, thats a big help! I'll give him a call and mention you recommended him.
I started looking at my cush rubbers earlier and they don't look to good either, I've tried removing one, but bloody hell there in there! How on earth do you go about removing the damn things? Theres no way to push them out the back.
I've drilled the rubber out of one and managed to release the inner part but the outer part is so thin and stuck to the hub. I read a post on hear about removing them, but wondered if anyone else has tried this and what method they used?
Back to the crankcase for now, and I'll check those pistons while i'm at it.
Oh and I managed to get a picture of the scoring in the second cylinder bore.
[attach=1]
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No cam bearings in a 400F Dave, just the alloy.
[/quote
How does that work? I am confused
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If you are splitting the cases I have the clutch hub nut tool and a basket holding tool if you need help.
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Saisei, I know it seems strange just to rely on the head itself as a bearing, as now its this badly scored it seems the only option is a replacement head, or at least that's what the clymer manual says.
That would be a massive help sweetpea, thank you! I'll take all the advice and help I can get.
I'm going to have a play removing a few more parts tomorrow, then should be up to that point.
Where are you based?
Feel free to PM me and we'll arrange something between us.
I had an awful time trying to remove the cush rubbers this evening, I know my limits and think I might have to take them somewhere to be removed, I don't want to damage the hubs.
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My bid is in on the S/S downpipes :D. The silencer is Brituro has anyone used them?
I see the auction ended at £131.99 which sounds like a good price to me.
Did it go to anyone on here?
On the camshaft bearing front, I know people used to do conversions for the 250/360 G5 engines which also used to
wear the bearing surfaces, although I was never sure what they did with the centre bearing. Is it possible to do anything
similar with the 400 engine?
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My bid is in on the S/S downpipes :D. The silencer is Brituro has anyone used them?
I see the auction ended at £131.99 which sounds like a good price to me.
Did it go to anyone on here?
On the camshaft bearing front, I know people used to do conversions for the 250/360 G5 engines which also used to
wear the bearing surfaces, although I was never sure what they did with the centre bearing. Is it possible to do anything
similar with the 400 engine?
:D :D :D :D
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I'll take that as a yes then ....
Might be interesting to keep an eye on the eBay shop to see if any more sets come up for sale.
May yet manage to save beemsquar some pennies on his rebuild costs.
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I am open to offers if anyone wants it. Otherwise it goes on my site/fleabay
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Sorry, very late to this thread but I have a Brituro silencer on original down pipes on my 400/4. The silencer seems to do the job quite nicely
Julie
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I do like the look of the Brituro silencer Julie, I don't suppose you could upload a video with the sound could you please???? Im interested to know what setups people are using and how they sound.
Damn if I was at that stage of my build I would have bid on that :(
I've just plowed some more money into the bike, I took the rocker cover, head and block to a local machine shop to see what they could do and the guy just said "I wouldnt bother mate"Its not economically viable to repair them.
In the meantime I have ordered a used rocker cover, cylinder head, cylinder block and a low millage camshaft and sprocket from Steve at 400fourbits, for a very reasonable price!
The rest will have to wait until next month, when I will order a new piston and ring set with gudgeon pins etc, a full gasket and oil seal set.
Oh and inspect the crankcase and its contents with the aim to put the engine back together again between now and September.
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No problem, I will record it at the weekend
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Awesome thank you Julie, I look forward to it.
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Ok, I've been away from the project for a while as I was on holiday and was waiting for tools and bits to come back from the blaster.
Ive had the cush drive rubbers removed from the rear hub by a machinist as they were a bugger to get out, but I was sent the wrong cush drives twice by M&P direct, who then told me they don't sell them for my bike! I thought £14 for a set was too good to be true, there £11 each from DSS!!!
I have now been able to remove the clutch as I was waiting for my clutch holding tool to arrive in the post and have split the cases today.
I need a new gear for the gearbox as it's got part of the teeth missing.
I used a green plastigauge ( I was given red wax and a green gauge) which measures between 0.175mm-0.5mm and measured all the bearings, I'm not sure I've done it right as the Clymer manual says to place the wax bit between the bearing and the crankshaft and check the clearance is not greater than 0.08mm, but the plastigauge instructions says to put the wax bit between the journal and the bearing.
The main bearing shells look OK to me, no scratches or pitting, but could anyone tell me there thoughts? No 3 on the top looks a bit scratched.
[attach=3][attach=4][attach=5]
I hear Bryanj is good at this stuff.
After reading the post on this forum "Do you need to fully torque down when measuring bearing wear with Plastigauge?" I think I have deciphered the codes on my crankshaft, from the rotor I have A A A A and 2 2 2 1 2 on the crank and on the conrods they read 1C 1C 1C 2C, I'm not sure the 2 is correct, could be a one, its very hard to tell.
[attach=2]
The code stamped on the block is BBBBC and the shells are as follows....
Bottom TOP
1-Green-D2I A STD 1-Green-D2I A STD
2-Green-D2I A STD 2-Green- D2I A STD
3-?-D0I A STD 3-?- D0I A STD
4-?-D3L A STD 4-?-D3L A STD
5-Green-D2I A STD 5-Green- D2I A STD
So am I right in saying that the main bearing code is B2, B2, B2, B1, C2?
Im confused about the big end bearings though and where do I find what colour I need? The Clymer book just has a letter code without number.
I've read other posts I just can't get my head around it!
Any help would be greatly appreciated as always.
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OK, I've double checked this and the number 2 on the second cam from the left in the picture should be on the furthest cam on the right.
So going over the codes again gives me
B2, B2, B1, B2, C2 for the main bearings and A1, A1, A1, A2
I work this out to be brown, brown, green, brown black, which is weird as the shells that are in there now are definitely all green except for the 2 that have no colour left on them and all look quite newish. I have the same problem Royhall had in a previous post that black are discontinued!!!!
I have no means of measuring the crank etc accurately, any suggestions?
The conrods then would be red, red, red, yellow?
Can anyone shed any light on this??
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What happened to this build?