Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: mickwinf on December 28, 2010, 04:32:20 PM
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hi all, whats the latest on the standard 4/4 exhausts for the k3? I know genuine ones are not available but does anyone make a pattern set? i actually like the look of these,i have a reasonable set on my imported bike,this was the main reason i bought it (from DK motorcycles) to use as spares for my other bike.They would rechrome ok but at what cost,any idea anyone?
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Nobody yet but it was only last year that 350/4 ones became available so maybe in the future
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Hi,
I had the same issue.
I really wanted to retain the 4-4 exhaust look of the K3.
My down pipes were ok-ish, but the baffles were COMPLETELY shot.
So.... I decided to saw-off the (welded) original baffles, leaving me with just the four downpipes (in reasonable condition, but not 'show' condition).
I then bought a set of four universal aftermarket, 'Dunstall look-a-likes', from Bitz-for-bikes : Chrome Universal Silencer [HL554998]
http://www.bitzforbikes.co.uk/Chrome_Universal_Silencer_-ref-2978-116.html (http://www.bitzforbikes.co.uk/Chrome_Universal_Silencer_-ref-2978-116.html)
I used exhaust clamps and exhaust gum-gum sealant to seal the joint between pipe and silencer.
The silencer mounting bracket was a bit fiddly, but did successfullymanage to bolt to the oroiganl hangers off the rear foot pegs.
The silencers don't have the flat-sided inner face (for the lower two pipes to clear the rear axle), so they have to flare out an extra half inch or so to clear axle nuts.
- It is a job that takes some patience to get the fit right, and to seal the pipe connection, but is worth it. & I'm pleased with the overall result.
I have thought about getting new s/steel custom made down-pipes, - but I'm still saving up for those, & it may take a while!
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thanks Bryan, and Andy your bike looks great, a twin of mine when its finished! interesting solution,my exhausts are very solid, main problem is marks on the top at rear end, i think due to panniers rubbing, so will probably get them rechromed at some point when i am feeling rich!
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I think you will hae a job getting them done due to all the "Cack" (technical term) inside that will wreck thr platers bath
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hi all, latest on the exhaust front i have just found two lower k3 exhausts, genuine new old stock.possibly last ones in country,found through a recomendation on this forum!
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When I used my bike alot I tried loads of pipes....I had dunstall 4-1, motad, 4-1, the std 500 4-4 pipes, and the std K3 4-4 pipes. I had quite a few different 4-1 pipes I just cant remember which ones.
The point is I found the stock K3 pipes to be the best performance wise by quite a large margin...they are heavy though and have been unobtainable for a very long time. I tried to get some 10 years or more ago.
I got mine when I bought a newish K3 cheap off a mercenery that never came back. I actually bought it off his mum who had it in the garden under a tapaulin. The top of the petrol tank had rotted out but the rest was mint. The bike had only done 3,000 miles. The pipes stayed on my 500 until they completely rotted away. I've never had any that worked aswell since. I hope they do make them again.
Thats a superb effort with the Universals...very impressed.
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Have a look here. They say for the 500 but look like they are perfect for the K3.
http://www.motostoricheitaliane.com/omol_70_80_90.html (http://www.motostoricheitaliane.com/omol_70_80_90.html)
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When I was at the Stafford Show last month I asked 'Mr. Motad' if he was planning to make replacement 4-into-4's for the 550. He more or less said there was no chance until Dave Silvers' stock had dried up.
Just minutes before deciding to call it a day and go home, I spotted a set of dent-free but acid-stained 4-into-4's on the grass that were marked CB550. Thinking this was my lucky day, I bought them and lugged them to the car park one at a time (They're heavy beasts !) When I got them home, I'm not so sure they'll fit 'cause my cylinder head's still with S.E.P. at Kegworth but I thought it was worth a punt at 50 quid. They look sort of megaphonish, with flat ends, not coned. Marked something like HM460 - the guy said they were genuine but I'm a sucker for the impulse buy ! I can always paint them black (if they fit) !
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I am also in this situation, i have the original 4 into 4 exhausts, outside they look fine, inside its dust
might be having word with andy on this one ;)
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The model code 460 is from the CB650.
Did they have 4-4 exhausts?
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I've just checked the tired looking 4-into-4's I picked up at Stafford and the code is HM461, not 460 as I said earlier.
Sorry for the confusion. Is that still a 650 code ? If so I have a set of pipes that won't fit my 550. Anybody got a hacksaw ?
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There's a complete (?) list here:
http://www.cmsnl.com/faq.php?s_question=Honda+Partnumbers&id=14&fq_catid=14#16 (http://www.cmsnl.com/faq.php?s_question=Honda+Partnumbers&id=14&fq_catid=14#16)
Good old CMSNL.
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I think a 650 set of pipes will fit - with perswasion and new hangers for the footrest end of things. I have a set of k3 pipes that are rotten but am hoping to cut them open and copy them including the baffling arrangements - that way being newly fabricated with fresh metal, I should hopefully be able to get them chromed easily. I'd not be aiming for exact replicas so of little use to restorers but I'm not aiming to sell any appart from if I sold the k3 I'm planning on fitting them to. I just want to see how many mpg I can drag out of a 550 and the 4 into 4's seem a really good point to try for although there are also a laser, motad and motad neta plus 2 unknown make 4 into 2 sets to try that I have access to as well as an SU carb.
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Dave Silver's now out of their stock of 500F exhausts. Perhaps I should have shelled out a couple of months ago?
Do these go in and out of stock or is that it? CMSNL are advertising a set from the original manufacturer at just north of €1200.
I'm not looking for concours but I do want 4 into 4, what are the options? Has anyone fitted the Italian set (http://www.motostoricheitaliane.com/omol_70_80_90.html)?
Any aftermarket copies out there? I don't feel inclined to lay out a fortune for originals to find that thesteel inside had rotted away and I'm just left with the plating!
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The 500 ones that DS sells are genuine Honda and usually he orders a lot in one go, it is possible that Honda have discontinued them now, ask at your local dealer
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DS is claiming they are now discontinued. Which is probably why CMS have doubled their prices in the last few weeks - I suppose anyone with NOS Honda parts they want to clear would make their way to him. I can't see prices falling much though!
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Thanks for the comments, Oddjob. My condolences on the tank!
CMS are telling the story that "their" pipes are made by the original manufacturer who has set up to make them. This sort of chimes with your tale. I can imagine that the original tooling wouldn't have been designed and made for longevity, more for low cost. Of course, the Brit bike industry would have made tooling to last into the next century - but at a cost which made them uncompetitive.
When it got to the point where it couldn't produce parts which were acceptable quality to Honda, they would have got rid of it - probably for peanuts to the subcontractor who was running it for them. They then set it running to satisfy the aftermarket but with minimal investment to keep it running - which would show up in the lower quality.
That's my theory - sounds plausible to me in the absence of hard facts!
Still, the point remains, the 500 in my garage is 3 silencers short of a classic and those tulip ends do look good. If I can't get original OE build quality, I have to accept what I can have - it's surely going to be better than my 4-1 (which is going West in a couple of places) or a collection of salvage yard jobs with their own scratches, dents and holes!
The search continues . . .
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I can imagine that the original tooling wouldn't have been designed and made for longevity, more for low cost. Of course, the Brit bike industry would have made tooling to last into the next century - but at a cost which made them uncompetitive.
When it got to the point where it couldn't produce parts which were acceptable quality to Honda, they would have got rid of it - probably for peanuts to the subcontractor who was running it for them. They then set it running to satisfy the aftermarket but with minimal investment to keep it running - which would show up in the lower quality.
That's my theory - sounds plausible to me in the absence of hard facts!
Nah!!!
As a Toolmaker who spent a long time making presstooling for a variety of manufacturers including VWAudi, Isuzu Trucks, Nippon Denso, Lucas (who were subcontracted to make ECU's for the new, at the time, Honda Prelude .....I kid you not!!!!)......
.......I can quite happily say NOPE!!! A press tool, what Honda Tulip silencers will have been pressed on, is made to withstand a lot of wear that the materials exert as it slides and forms over the tool, even for a short run the tool will have had to be made to a certain standard, formers to a certain hardness (about 59-62 Rockwell C), otherwise it'd fail after a couple hundred run, the same standard that would also dictate that the tool would last for a long time, years. The tooling I worked on would do short production runs of 350,000 components, then come in for a checkup, then back out for another run several times a year, for years. I'm pretty sure that Honda won't have made that many 500/4 exhausts so the tooling would probably be still in useable nick if used correctly (decent setters are well paid for good reason)
If the quality of some of the stuff for sale is poor the tooling could have been abused but more likely not the original tooling.
I also worked on tooling for Baxi (boilers), Swan (kettles, toaster etc), Prestige (pressure cookers), anyone got a gas meter like this (http://www.p-wholesale.com/upimg/19/766a1/domestic-gas-meters-7.jpg)
Just my 2p ;)
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I bow to your superior experience and knowledge, Tomb!
I know from the injection moulding world that soft tooling is sometimes used when production runs are short. They can be perfectly adequate and cost a lot less to make. I presume the same doesn't apply to press tooling.
Got two of your gas meters and a Baxi boiler here!
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I'm sure this will be a cycle of short runs followed by periods of unavailaility, quality will as always vary depending on who makes them on what tools, how skilled they are etc. The 500/4 is a appriciating classic with more and more bikes getting the £££ restoration treatment so supply will follow demand. Personally I find the cost and lifespan of a 4 into 4 system puts me off but tulip silencers are available from custom suppliers such as custom fastners - I doubt they'd fool anyone but they could give the general look and at £60 -£70 a pop(when I last looked) might leave some cash in the kitty for some custom made stainless downpipes - I'd be moderately tempted by that option once I've used up any cheap used pattern pipes I can wrangle. I quite fancy the idea of the fisk tail / velocette style silencers racked up in a 4 into 4 system too, different and could look good.
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I had an advisory on the last M-O-T about `excessive` noise with the original 4-4`s on!!! It passed ok with no advisory with a Marving on!! This system was almost twice as loud, so I swapped back to the original 4-4 ( complete with welded on patches) as I consider it to look more balanced than the 4-1. Saying that my first Honda was a F2 and I loved the look of that bike! Can`t wait `til someone reproduces a replacement....at a decent price.
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I had a look around for aftermarket pipes - the tulip type (cocktail shaker they call it in the custom world, I learned today) seems available in the US, advertised as "Made in England". I couldn't find anyone over here advertising them! They would look OK IMHO, as you say, Matthew, they aren't going to fool anyone.
Stainless is more expensive than mild steel. More difficult to work with, Tomb? I guess you could get a set made by a competent fabricator. Or a number of sets. I'm with you on the look of polished stainless, Oddjob. The philosophical question is what are you looking to achieve with your bike? - remanufacturing using modern technology and materials or "as built". I think the market for a stainless repro exhaust would be larger than that for rear mudguards because exhausts kill themselves!
Basketcase - and anyone else - what is a "decent price"?
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£400 would be right for me to buy a 4 into 4 stainless system that was a close (ish) match to original, any more and for me it would be too much, but then I'd be riding in all weathers so it's still not going to last as long as you might think (my bmw had khenin stainless pipes and a few winter trips to Cardiff in the snow crossing Brecon beacons had them looking well manky) Best solution I've seen to the rear guards is fiberglass painted same coulor as tank - That should last well and the chrome one can get fitted for nicer weather or shows.
Cocktail shaker silencer were definately in the last Custom Fastners catalouge I had, If you like I can drop in there and ask if they still do them if I remember.
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More difficult to work with, Tomb?
Not really, look at pressure cookers, stainless pots and pans and the like, all stainless pressed parts.
I've made several 4 into 1 systems for my bikes over the years out of 316 stainless (I had a free supply of 316 ;)), though 304 is recommended as 316 can be brittle on exhausts.
For the tulip silencers have you considered hydraulic forming (http://www.eurospares.com/frame8.htm) from welded flat sheets? Today at work I was using a Tangye 1600psi water pump for NDT weld testing on 18 bar steam mains, whilst doing it I couldn't help thinking about the exhausts ......hmmmm, one day :)
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Interesting stuff on the hydraulic forming, Tomb. Perhap's that's your "retire in luxury" card!
Wouldn't you get a sticky-out seam at the welded joint, though? and wouldn't repeatability be an issue? I'm always fascinated by how things are made but this is too much of a learning curve for me. And too many other "in progress" projects to complete first!
I had a look at cocktail shaker exhauts - attached is from British Cycle in the US. An upswept and a straight (as outlined) on each side could look quite pretty!
I'll continue my search to see if I can find some "originals" at something South of £extremepain,
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Stainless steel, as a rough rule of thumb it takes double the effort i.e. if you had a 2mm capacity folder for sheet steel it would only be suited to bending 1mm thick stainless. Also tends to work harden more easily and can distort like buggery from excess weld heat. Modern production methods can work round this, the shed tikerer can but it is harder to do than working with mild steel.
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I agree with MM, £400-£500 max, as I only paid just over that for the bike! Stainless would be better but the manufacturer would be on a loser as it would outlast standard steel systems and we wouldn`t be ordering anywhere near as many ;)
How about a polished stainless rear mudguard?! Who`s up for giving it a try and making one?? How about you Tomb, plenty of experience in fabricating?
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Me and my big gob ::)
Sorry but I've been down that road and got out. And what you're talking about is tooling up for repetition work, definitely not what I want to do.
Doing engineering one offs just doesn't pay. I once got £20 for 2 days machining parts for a joiner mate for his P11 Norton, my machine, my electric (and that eats a big hole in any pay). Later in the year I got a quote of £900 to put the roof spars up for a house, my mate the joiner offered to do it mates rates .......£400 if I helped, he was there 2 days >:( And the really stupid thing, we thought we'd done well to save £500 :-[
Sorry to waffle on in your thread, just wanted folk to know why I don't bother any more :-X
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Sorry Tomb, it was only said tongue in cheek. No offence taken hopefully :-\ I was only wondering if anyone out there knew of anyone willing to give it a try.
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Hahaha LOL sorry did I come across all moany ::)
Nah mate no apologies warranted, man you lads are polite :-*
Its got to be said, building cafe racers, chops, bobbers, and specials is sooooo much easier than standar resto's when it comes to those hard to find (read expensive) parts.
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I've got it in mind to give it a shot in a few years time - I trained as a blacksmith and found sheet metalwork to be both fun and something I'm fairly good at. I'll be knocking up a set for my 550/k3 first if I do, pictures will follow and I'll see how much of a **** that job is before even considering the 500/4 type, none of it's going to happen soon though, at the moment I'm living in a house with a tarp where the slates should be. Also like Tomb I've done engineering type jobs that have taken days for friends or work collueuges, and financially it's never been worth it, conversely by doing the roof ourselfs we've saved paying a builder and his lad £30 per hour, against the £7.80 / hr I earn. I recon before I get round to it someone in China with a redundant production line thanks to the recession will churn out a mass of repro tinwork, if it only sells if a good copy then that will bew what is made, if it sells well despite being utter rubbish then that will be what is made. Quality costs.
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Back to the replacing the rotted out silencers from earlier, there are `universal Dunstall style mufflers` advertised on fleabay. £60 each with £7.95 p+p, p+p includes up to 2000kg so if you want 4 silencers it`s still only £7.95. If funds weren`t so tight I`d give one a go!!
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If its the same ebayer, I think the weight for £7.95 may be a bit confusing, he quotes 2000kg
But theres also another quote
Prices are shown for weight not exceeding 30kg
You could buy a pair for £110 saving a tenner Click (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-CHROME-REPLICA-DUNSTALL-DECIBEL-SILENCERS-/330762626890?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item4d02fd274a)
Back in the day we all had these on our 400/4's and 550/4's :D
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I remember fitting a pair of them, or something very similar, to a 250G5 after the old ones rotted out. I sold the bike to a mate and could hear him nearly 2 miles away. With foam air filters the bike pulled right into the red with no hint of slacking off! I bet his hearing sounds like he's still got his Griffin Clubman on.
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Basket, Tomb,
I put those on mine back in Dec 2010 (see page 1 of this message string).
- sound great (& no, not toooo loud)
got them from :
http://www.bitzforbikes.co.uk/Chrome_Universal_Silencer_-ref-2978-116.html
Andy C
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Just an update - I bit the bullet and got a set of genuine honda pipes from http://www.motostoricheitaliane.com/Eng_Menu.html (http://www.motostoricheitaliane.com/Eng_Menu.html)
I got my enquiry in before the prices went up.
He has a couple more sets if anyone's interested but I expect that they will be at the new higher price. You can email Marino Setti at info@motostoricheitaliane.com but be aware that it's August and Italy is on holiday.