Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB750 => Topic started by: MarkCR750 on April 28, 2019, 06:56:07 PM
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https://youtu.be/VnPYdcbcAe0
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I will stick with chainsaw chain oil it's cheaper than gear oil and has the anti fling in it. A 5ltr bottle lasts a long long time. :)
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Sounds good, which brand do you use Moore’s and where from please?
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I am sure the chains he was testing were O ring or X chains,these are effectively sealed .
I think most of the chains on the sohc range are basic chains,
so ideally a grease/oil mixture,that will creep into the links,and remain for as long as possible.
I use spray ,either Morris or Wurth ,both seem good,
very rarely I will remove the chain and immerse it in Duckhams chainlube,
anyone remember those large round tins ???
PS, a Peter Furlong enclosed chaincase does help to keep it clean
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I am sure the chains he was testing were O ring or X chains,these are effectively sealed .
I think most of the chains on the sohc range are basic chains,
so ideally a grease/oil mixture,that will creep into the links,and remain for as long as possible.
I use spray ,either Morris or Wurth ,both seem good,
very rarely I will remove the chain and immerse it in Duckhams chainlube,
anyone remember those large round tins ???
PS, a Peter Furlong enclosed chaincase does help to keep it clean
I still have a tin of linklife somewhere.
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What was that stuff that used to be used for chains, a wax like substance that was melted and the chain dunked into it.
I can remember going down to Silverstone on the K1 and had to pull into the services as the chain was very lumpy, I had to buy a tin of oil and used a rag to soak the chain to get all the kinks out of it.
Cheers
Dennis
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Sounds good, which brand do you use Moore’s and where from please?
The cheapest you can find on eBay will be fine. Looks good to me. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-litres-EXTRA-TACKY-CHAINSAW-OIL-Chain-Oil-Guide-Bar-for-all-Saws-100Cst-5L/292557494372?epid=9031281335&hash=item441dc91864:g:Lc0AAOSw5cNYMwAz
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What was that stuff that used to be used for chains, a wax like substance that was melted and the chain dunked into it.
I can remember going down to Silverstone on the K1 and had to pull into the services as the chain was very lumpy, I had to buy a tin of oil and used a rag to soak the chain to get all the kinks out of it.
Cheers
Dennis
Linklife. :)
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Sounds good, which brand do you use Moore’s and where from please?
The cheapest you can find on eBay will be fine. Looks good to me. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-litres-EXTRA-TACKY-CHAINSAW-OIL-Chain-Oil-Guide-Bar-for-all-Saws-100Cst-5L/292557494372?epid=9031281335&hash=item441dc91864:g:Lc0AAOSw5cNYMwAz
Thanks.
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That Linklife is a lot of mucking about, taking the chain off and dunking in a tin of hot oil. Ideally you'd need a spare chain to pull it through.
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I use linklife on the 550 chain as it lasts ages and my dad still had a tin from the 70's. Seemed a shame to just let it sit there for ever more. I occasionally top it up with spray lube. The 750 has an O ring chain and it looks after its self and has not needed to be adjusted in the last 7 years.
The 750 also has the advantage of flinging engine oil out of the auto chain oiller protecting the chain and left hand side of the bike from the elements
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I bet that was fun picking that up
I tend to forget how much it stinks when warmed up. Stunk the house out more then once when I'v left the back door open.
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I am sure the chains he was testing were O ring or X chains,these are effectively sealed .
I think most of the chains on the sohc range are basic chains,
so ideally a grease/oil mixture,that will creep into the links,and remain for as long as possible.
I use spray ,either Morris or Wurth ,both seem good,
very rarely I will remove the chain and immerse it in Duckhams chainlube,
anyone remember those large round tins ???
PS, a Peter Furlong enclosed chaincase does help to keep it clean
Just brought the smell of that stuff back to me after a 40 year break. Thanks :(
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The presentation raises some points that appear valid, namely sealed chains being mostly unaffected for internal lubrication by products applied to the exterior.
I don't see his assessment and testing holds up for rotation test though. Chain links don't rotate continously, just angle and return as chain passes sprocket diameter. For that application you can use a heavyweight supportive lubricant to prevent wear that will fail on criteria of continuous rotation at any significant speed. That's exactly what they seal inside ringed chains to give longevity.
Rotating bearings, like wheel bearings, specifically use grease like light lithium to control friction and prevent heat build up from viscosity causing friction.
A good comparison is within car wheel bearings, as above, but in the same assembly you can have a constant velocity joint in the drive shaft. This part behaves like a chain with low speed movement through limited angles, as such it needs a high viscosity, high load bearing grease. Usually it makes use of molybdenum disulphide to prevent surface wear and doesn't have to cope with much speed across components.
Both of these will cover thousands of the very same mileage, but have very different in use characteristics to suit their design.
If you don't lubricate the outside of sealed link chains they seem to heat up with friction during use, this may lead to the internal lubrication exiting the bearings. Something definitely happens as they can get stiff links that give problems. This doesn't seem to happen with chainlube or alternative in my experience.
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In essence he doesn't cover many things that we would ordinarily consider the reasons for lubrication of a chain, heat build up, wear of bearings over duty cycle (elongation of chain) which is how most are judged because we have to adjust them, or any defects arising from siezed links (like trying to exceed the front sprocket diameter) which are particularly interesting for bikes in general but certainly of significant importance on these engines.
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If you don't lubricate the outside of sealed link chains they seem to heat up with friction during use, this may lead to the internal lubrication exiting the bearings. Something definitely happens as they can get stiff links that give problems.
I’ve always understood that chainlube is required in sealed link chains to keep the seals moist. If they dry out they get hot and deteriorate fast. Once the seals have gone the chain is toast pretty quickly.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It just looks like cod-technical presentation delivered to project the presenter in a light that he knows what he's talking about.
It starts with a theoretical view and just offers "evidence" to prove that, rather than examination to find what happens. They are different things.
Just that loading test of spinning the bearing, it reaches a demonstrated load of around 1 kilo (at which point it stops rotating), when if you look at a rough "back of a fag packet " approximation, it would probably exceed 400 kilo on a 200kg bike during maximum application of torque.
That test cannot come anywhere near simulation of real life. It's just not a valid test.
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It's only meant as a rough comparison,don't read too much into it.
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It's not a criticism of MarkCR750, just of the video maker and his assessment.
After all, if it can't stand up to a bit of gentle scrutiny then it's not worth the the altered magnetic state on which it's mpeg compression is stored (not worth the paper it's written on in old money) ;D
It's a classic con trick scenario, start by representing yourself with verifiable fact to establish credibility, move on to what you want to do when you think you're believed and present something as factual under that initial cover of truthful projection.
Not suggesting he's a con man, just the method has same fingerprint to it.
There's alot of good stuff available on t'internet, also alot of pure tosh, it's reasoned discussion that has the ability to separate the two, and perfectly valid on a forum.
What is his purpose of making and presenting something so ill researched?
In the context of the 750 motor at least, it's particularly relevant, as chain failure has the potential to take the crank cases with it.
As a one line statement and generalisation, I'd not run any chain without exterior lubricant, sealed or not. Preferably with a sticky/non fling consistency, ultimately with molybdenum disulphide as component.
And if that looks like chain lube, then I'd choose Kal-gard chain kote because I have tested on chains in real use with very good results.
Other products are available, and it taste's awful :)
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I just oil the chain with old engine oil, same on the chainsaw quite often. Not oiling an O ring chain bad move they get horribly stiff and can spit half their O rings out. Only downsides to old engine oil are the first few spins of the chain spray oil over the chain guard and floor - I like to spring the wheel under power whilst still on the stand to try to keep it off the tyres. On the plus side it's free in vast quantities. On the chainsaw I reserve proper chain oil for milling as the chains are mega bucks. I used to be all precious and use proper lube for my motorbike chains and the chainsaw but tried the engine oil option and found I was not tightening chains any more often, or indeed replacing them. Scottoil was about the cheapest proper lube, I think a scottoiler may be fitted when the 500/4 gets fixed up, but it will be getting old engine oil in it. I am pretty sure oil would creep past O or X rings on a chain. I used to commute a fair bit on the bike, especially in winter you'd notice if you neglected the chain. Sapped power and made gearchanges graunchy. I did sometimes drop links to get a bit more lifr from a chain, once the sprockets were out the whole lot was replaced. I wonder why the front sprocket despite seeing more revolutions per tooth never wore as badly as the rears, I normally got those close to no teeth and once when m&p sat on my money and didn't send the chain for ages I got the rear sprocket nearly smooth, no teeth at all, chain was by this stage needing tensioning every 100 miles - I geuss it went through the case hardening. Was glad to bin that set of chain and sprockets.
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That happened to me with a 550 K4 that I used as a ride to work hack. It was like Gunga Din. Despite all the abuse it never let me down and when M&P took three weeks to supply a chain and sprocket set, the rear sprocket was so worn I was in serious danger of stripping the needle like teeth. It was a valuable lesson in maintenance and the fact that if you ride a 550 K4 sensibly, it will deliver 81 mpg. I was more considerate after that. In my defence, I would like to dd that the bike was fitted with a Scottoiler.
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Here's an illuminating view of X-ring chain cross section
[attachimg=1]
The protected by seal area has nothing to do with the outer roller area in respect of common lubrication, the two are discreet. If typical, it shows why external lubrication is needed to function correctly.
It's the same for non sealed chains too.
That outer roller is only supplied by supplementary application of lubricant, and the most vulnerable to lack of maintenance.
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I have a Scottoiler and I love it. Never have to worry much about the chain, needs adjusting less often and lasts longer. Unit lives under the seat in the space where that bulky old air filter used to be. Win win.
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I have filled the house with smoke using Linklife - not for the first time, oily engine parts in the oven to change guides and liners will also work just as well. How the wife laughed when she came home.... :-[ These days I use a chain spray, the current one is Muc Off brand, it works OK. The 750 has a built in 'fling' chain oiler from the gearbox sprocket, but like most people I set it to 'off' when I rebuilt the engine, and you'd need to get the cover off to readjust it.
My Heffalump-Dumpaloon 1200 has a belt drive. The upside is it never seems to need adjusting, and doesn't fling crud everywhere. The downside was one day when I had no drive, looked down and saw the broken belt on the floor. >:( >:( >:( Then you find out how they are just a couple of teeth different in length to ordinary common industrial belts (which are relatively cheap), located on the other side of the Atlantic when you need one urgently, and cost over £220 plus VAT and carriage. :o
On the other hand it had the decency to break on my driveway, it could have done it anywhere, including Malin Head or John o'Groats...
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To offer a more quantitative view, I looked after, for a a time, some industrial process machinery that wasn't chain driven.
The configuration had direct drive electric motor driving long chain that ran process line, for which timing was critical.
They were checked for each daily production cycle at specified time, adjusted (if needed) by analog speed control, had an ammeter in supply to monitor motor power consumption (and hence driveline friction), along with motor temperature logging to ensure it didn't breach critical heat in service which would result in safety shut down.
The chain on these is the greatest variable in its efficiency, making sure that was kept in the best condition key to reliable running which was generally about 12hrs per day over six days.
The best performing lubricant was sticky propellant applied chain lube with molybdenum disulphide content, by such a significant margin that it made absolutely no sense not to use it.
General oil, EP oils, etc would offer close to the same levels of friction WHEN they we're applied, with the resulting amps driving and set point of the speed control indicators confirming this. That data was recorded on startup records as part of running them.
But for pure long service interval operation they had no match for the chain lube.
It gave me a convincing view of the potential of each choice, which I feel is relevant to bikes.
The original assertion in the video was that chainlube was a rip off. It doesn't follow in logic there either, the chainlube almost totally removed wear on these machines, taking maintenance downtime and component cost virtually out of the equation in operating them.
That's what MDS is good for, also why it's used in high pressure low movement metal to metal interfaces which ultimately prevents spalling and associated wear.