Post by: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 01:45:35 PM
As some of you know my rear drum has developed a crack that renders it either scrap or look to a possible repair.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/b2af4baa6224d668b6c46dcc200c773f.jpg)
Bike was never going to be standard / original, so now looking to see what is involved in conversion to a rear disc and thought I would do a thread about how I did the conversion unlike when I converted the front end to dual disc
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/25dfda3cf771627cca313682c791ab59.jpg)
First thing I needed to do was suss out a way of fitting a “disc carrier” that fits the standard hub to see what design was needed.
Spent some time yesterday modelling up a simple dummy disc carrier unit in 3d so I could then overnight print and then dummy up the build on the bike just to see how it all fitted together and from first dry fit it looks good.
This is the 3d printed disc carrier in ABS.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/923ec35789973b6689664a5acf120738.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/dd6d4f22686cfb958411a882e1a6db0b.jpg)
And this is how it all fits together on the wheel and bike.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/64589a0f417071d3394f0ab2b148f327.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/0af16a9b090a483d172b42cb9a0c95bd.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/8ed6f64d17e041f758c47e78abc4ad7b.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/a7a7aea88ec5f612ea86ea53b80aa97a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/4eb7f8674182e6da5fa97725f068bfbe.jpg)
The final carrier itself will be machined from a solid aluminium billet and will be designed to lock the carrier in the internal bore so that it is solidly held in place to prevent sideway movement and other features such a extra bosses to lock it in place using some of the internal hub features to prevent possible rotation under braking (and also a oil seal like the sprocket side to prevent water entry to now exposed wheel bearing as the end spacer / boss you see on the dummy disc carrier will be a separate part the final disc carrier will revolve round this spacer)
But for now I am happy with the overall shape and size / distance of the disc from the swing arm and there is plenty of space to add a caliper hanger etc
The next stage will be to source a caliper and then design a caliper mount to suit my chosen unit to mount the caliper on the disc and use the original torque arm mount with a new torque arm arrangement
Again this will be modelled and printed so I can first test fit my design
Then the final stage will be how to convert my rear sets to operate a remote master cylinder
Once these three parts of the design are finalised I can then commit to the final parts in aluminium and then fit
Will update as thing go
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 04:10:44 PM
Thanks for the compliment it means a lot
Yes there is some better discs out there but wanted to at least keep the period look and avoid modern discs at the expense of a bit of extra stopping power
It’s a summer bike anyway and there are better pad materials these days. And can always drill the period discs to improve things without making it look too modern
But I do have a spare twin piston rear brembo caliper in a box
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/ac1cae6cddf599248499395bb5174fc6.jpg)
So may machine off the logo and paint it black to hide its a modern unit but will need to tweak the disc size diameter to suit as its for a smaller disc
It’s early days yet and plenty of time to play around with different ideas but at least the disc idea looks possible
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 04:45:58 PM
The cb400n super dream disc I am planning to use is a standard 5mm thick (the one in the pics is an original CB400F front disc that I just had in a box as awaiting the cb400n disc to arrive ), so suits the Brembo unit nicely and just need to reduce the disc diameter by 20mm so the Brembo pad with of 30mm uses the whole disc face as the original cb400n disc has a pad width of 40mm. So the Brembo pad would leave a 10mm unused section on the inner most section of the disc working face
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Post by: K2-K6 on October 11, 2021, 05:31:22 PM
A thought though as to design. Have you considered that the disc may need an outrigger bearing? The original brake shoes ordinarily sit equally over the existing wheel bearing (well technically the braking surface of the drum does) to distribute braking torque equally when applied.
The disc arrangement in mock up appears too far out to use that alignment and as I understand the description to centre the assembly into the existing hub which may not be "ahem" symmetric. In other words, as brake is applied it could try and "corkscrew" for want of a better word, the assembly out of the hub. Any failure there ultimately could lock the wheel. It's not a natural torque application line as I view it.
Post by: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 05:41:54 PM
Yes there is plenty of room to add a bearing to the disc carrier and good idea
I will at some point add a bearing location as part of the seal arrangement as there is plenty of space
Also I could use an angular contact bearing rather than a normal single race ball bearing so as well as supporting axially the disc carrier it is also held in place radially too for any type of loads / forces
Food for thought
Thanks for your input and ideas
Best wishes Al
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Post by: K2-K6 on October 11, 2021, 06:38:38 PM
The drum brake plate is static and so pinches the main wheel bearings on their inner races when the axle is tightened, but with the disc "plate" spinning with the wheel you have to go through it in it's entirety (bearing inner race, plus spacer if needed) to complete that clamping requirement while the plate revolves with the wheel.
Without it you couldn't tighten the wheel.
Post by: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 06:44:29 PM
Next job though is to get the correct cb400n disc in place and design and print a caliper hanger that fits the Brembo unit
Once this is sorted in rough I can then review the final set up and add the finally touches to the final assembly such a extra bearings and spacers and then make the final unit in aluminium
And the great thing is that 3d models take out all the guess work like when I built up my one-off front end for my hybrid build
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/95a14504d1a0561ff89eec245b4f3d10.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/cf19a39a56242c54eb4587854a7c96ce.jpg)
A lot of work but a nice special one off
Best wishes Al
Post by: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 07:52:52 PM
Thinking with more clarity ;D it's a necessary part of design to have a bearing in that location.Hi K2-K6
The drum brake plate is static and so pinches the main wheel bearings on their inner races when the axle is tightened, but with the disc "plate" spinning with the wheel you have to go through it in it's entirety (bearing inner race, plus spacer if needed) to complete that clamping requirement while the plate revolves with the wheel.
Without it you couldn't tighten the wheel.
Just been thinking and if I add two bearings like the wheel bearing set up with a spacer tube etc on the disc carrier that will solve the possible sideways movement as the unit would be clamped in place by the wheel spindle like the wheel itself And to stop any rotation movement just need a set of bosses on the end that snuggly fit between the Cush drive bosses cast on the inside of the hub assembly
May also add a rubber some rubber dampers to stop any possible rattles due to slight movement of the disc carrier in the wheel hub (like a cush drive) as I can print custom rubber inserts
Easy peasy and the design means I don’t need to do any mods to the original hub itself
Just waiting for that disc to arrive now so I can sort out that caliper mounting
Lastly just need to decide a price on my original complete kick starter that I no longer need due to the rearsets and thats the project financed
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/4036c413083de1e23f2b2b3f4d5b3196.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk it(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/3cfd403d204b8e196c71d08896e2d025.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/7e47227edbcfa370d71ff4f37328c5a4.jpg)
Best wishes Al
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 11, 2021, 08:38:18 PM
I'm in utter awe of what you can do and have achieved on the computer and printer, what a superb way to go at things, fantastic work. I was really chuffed 'fasion-ing' a bespoke reg plate holder n bracket for the 400, I feel totally 'top trumped' LOL
So far that's a great start to a solution and fining the read really helpful as I wanted to do similar with the one I have ready to start in the shed, (currently parts collecting). Huge food for thought and a great topic. Keep us up to speed on how you're getting on.
Skills!!!
PS:- Im with Ken, dont 'diss' Brembos' ;D
Post by: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 08:55:16 PM
Thanks for the compliments and point taken on the wanton vandalism of the Brembo caliper
I think when it’s all done, as I will have the models of all the required parts, I am happy to share any engineering drawings etc as I guess other would like to maybe do this change but would need to farm out the machining side of it as I have plenty of other projects on the go as I print lots of other NLA parts for the RD guys as a “hobby”
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/1176d307cf73525b03609e1f2ec91599.jpg)
On the other hand if I win the lottery I will have my own machine shop with a CNC mill lathe etc
and I will do your conversion for freeSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 11, 2021, 09:54:14 PM
I saw your RD horn bracket on your 400, I think it was you wasn't it? Looked brilliant and I clocked that you'd said you printed it. I was in the LC club for a while, had a belter of an LC but sold it to pay the rent one month :-[ :-[ :'( as you do!
If only we'd had these printers back then i could have printed some gold to buy more pistons for it, it was ace ;D
Post by: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 10:02:19 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/f81db35dd7e5ff391eb7102201e8b685.jpg)
Always loved the that part of the 350lc
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211011/fbdaca585f2a14c8a0fb9602418fbdec.jpg)
It was a classic bit of style
And just had to have it on my CB400F
Just had to print a bespoke horn cover to suit like you do
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Laverdaroo on October 11, 2021, 10:28:27 PM
Don't listen to the nasty man ;D
Post by: K2-K6 on October 11, 2021, 10:29:59 PM
Just been thinking and if I add two bearings like the wheel bearing set up with a spacer tube etc on the disc carrier that will solve the possible sideways movement as the unit would be clamped in place by the wheel spindle like the wheel itself And to stop any rotation movement just need a set of bosses on the end that snuggly fit between the Cush drive bosses cast on the inside of the hub assembly
May also add a rubber some rubber dampers to stop any possible rattles due to slight movement of the disc carrier in the wheel hub (like a cush drive) as I can print custom rubber inserts"
Yes that's how I see it as the disc plate virtually running autonomously on it's own bearing set around the axle and taking drive as you say from the wheel to transmit torque from one to the other. A little less demanding than sprocket as it's only got to resist torque one way, as opposed to drive chain with both power and engine braking effects, but would make civilised :) job of it with some rubber for just a small amount of compliance to remove any clatter.
Are you intending to put the caliper hanger on the spindle to, in place of the outermost spacer? An under slung one could just link straight to the torque arm then.
Post by: K2-K6 on October 11, 2021, 10:34:00 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on October 12, 2021, 01:37:22 PM
Yes it was my intention to hang the caliper below the swing arm and use the original torque arm fixed point on the swing arm to add the torque arm
Also had a dig about in the garage and have found the original hanger that came with the caliper
(Just will need a torque arm mounting point adding if I decide to use this)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211012/cf9928cca872b22f9765b778d54287fe.jpg)
And also have a possibly a remote brake master cylinder
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211012/8c12ad4c227d5f982dd5e14324a5c259.jpg)
So now that I have a disc on the way I have possibly all the main “bought in”components for this conversion
Once disc is here I will do the final disc carrier design that I will share here for critic and then crack on with its manufacture
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Laverdaroo on October 12, 2021, 10:06:53 PM
Think theyre about £9 or similar with the kit included on some sites. Might give you a number of different options for mounting, just depends how much modification you need to do to get the desired effect I guess. yo ucan hide it behind the frame rail though if it needs hiding???
Post by: allankelly1 on October 13, 2021, 01:02:02 PM
Both of those will lick up a treat, that hanger needs minimal 'nannying' and come up a treat. Are you going to keep the reservoir or go for the HRC 'green tube' m/c 'get out of jail free card' option?Thats a good option if needed
Think theyre about £9 or similar with the kit included on some sites. Might give you a number of different options for mounting, just depends how much modification you need to do to get the desired effect I guess. yo ucan hide it behind the frame rail though if it needs hiding???
Thanks for the info
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Laverdaroo on October 13, 2021, 01:35:44 PM
Post by: Arfa on October 13, 2021, 03:15:01 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 13, 2021, 06:06:01 PM
Looks like an upside down mickey mouse mask
You are just being unkind as its a Yamaha Oddjob.
As you have said earlier this is an impressive rear brake engineering project by Allan - it will be interesting to see how it progresses.
Post by: allankelly1 on October 13, 2021, 07:42:29 PM
I’m not worried as RD owners have thick skins
Back to the main subject yes a interesting project with lots of challenges but looks to be totally practical to do, and a nice one off touch to the bike.
(Plus I don’t have to take the rear wheel apart and try and repair the cracked drum brake cast iron insert
)Offered up the caliper tonight and found I needed to move the disc out by another 7mm to allow enough space between the caliper inner piston and the disc carrier as I need 28mm between the disc carrier face and the disk to allow the caliper to fit in the gap due to it being a twin piston unit rather than the original plan to use a single piston floating unit
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211013/d7ae87c62bb72b100249d294548f7dd7.jpg)
Not a problem and that why I did a 3d print to see if there are any issues before I make the final carrier in aluminium and there is still plenty of room between the disc and swing arm even with the disc moved out by this extra 7mm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211013/e08a118a01075c88c8fe03ef8972aaac.jpg)
The only thing is my plan to use the original caliper hanger is a no go and will need to make up a hanger that has a dog leg to place the caliper in the correct position on the disc that I will most likely design and then print and then offer up to check my design
Still waiting for the correct disc to arrive
but once that’s in I can modify the original design and print another dummy disc carrier that include this extra disc off set and will include two bearings locations in it (and a spacer tube) like the rear wheel itself as suggested by K2-K6Lastly so you all know kick starter now sold
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Laverdaroo on October 13, 2021, 10:33:10 PM
Lppks mint, well done mate. :)
Post by: allankelly1 on October 19, 2021, 06:39:24 PM
Ok like to ask all what they think to my idea
Now sorted out out how to control lateral “float” using an out rigger bearing that is spaced with a sleeve just like a wheel bearing assembly and I will share the final design once I have my pc repaired
Now looking on how to lock the disc carrier in place to stop rotational movement relative to the main wheel hub and have come up with this idea
I have four 30mm diameter”dogs” that will located in the four internal pockets of the wheel hub and under braking they will sit against the four cast bosses for the external rear sprocket bonded rubber bushes thus preventing any rotational movement
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211019/7a1645c415a93e6d241e19d9bf4c25ba.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211019/ea0cc7365ce3fc0893f12710af1a2fe6.jpg)
But to ensure there is no “slop” in the system (as there will be clearance in the other direction) my thoughts were to create a set up piece so the dogs are correct positioned like this
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211019/9d97a833ff5f9757a2290ae91c937d67.jpg)
Then once I am happy I was going to make up some 90 shore polyurethane casting rubber ( like you use for custom engine mounts) and then fill each hub pocket up to the top of the ribs ( just below the original brake drum lining) so the dogs are held firmly in place and you have an inbuilt cush drive
And then to finish the assembly the disc carrier simply bolt onto the fixed dogs as shown with my second generation3d printed disc carrier
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211019/d4f8c220dcf993362efa1163da6431af.jpg)
There will be no actual flex of the rubber under heavy braking as the dogs are already positioned hard up again the four internal bosses in the right direction direction but this design both solves the disc carrier to wheel hub drive connection and solves the possibility of mechanical backlash
Also access to the original wheel bearing is not an issue as you simply remove the disc and then the disc carrier
What are people thoughts please?
Best wishes Al
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Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on October 20, 2021, 11:25:20 AM
Steve
Post by: allankelly1 on October 20, 2021, 05:39:13 PM
I'm wondering that if you have access to a 3D printer why not just do an entire hub, saves any chance of something coming adrift under braking.Wish I could but I can only print plastic parts
To be honest it all bolts together like a normal disc brake assembly and just assembly everything with a bit of blue loctite
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Post by: allankelly1 on October 20, 2021, 05:47:12 PM
Quick update for those following
Correct disc arrive today and bolted it to the revised disc carrier ok
All the off sets with the wheel in place look spot on and plenty of clearance for the caliper now I can place it over the disc itself
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211020/6226be8a153de5027d46707cc6ec81da.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211020/71ab14253b13285e192b32678e1d0896.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211020/89c593159b1d38a122650ccb18d246ce.jpg)
Next job is to turn the disc down to 230mm from the current size so it is a match for a Cagiva Mito rear disc (and the pad width then will match the discs face width and then I can start the design of the caliper hanger itself)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211020/3f91ddf3eaae25b12bacd001417b9678.jpg)
Once that is sorted will update the thread and then I will commit to finishing the rear wheel with aluminium production parts with the additional seals and bearing etc
Catch up again soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on October 20, 2021, 06:41:09 PM
Yes I would be totally happy to model up a complete hub in SolidWorks but the crunch is the cost for a billet hub
To the cost to have a hub made from a single billet would be I estimate to be at least £800 -£1000 or maybe more based on the one off parts I get made by my local suppliers for work projects
I did look around for an alternative 36 hole rear hub that carries a disc as standard but then you still need to sort out correcting the chain alignment ensure correct bearings for a 17mm axle bolt correct spoke length etc etc. and again prices start around £200 plus
Due to my access to mill lathe etc and my time is free total for this project for the bought in parts is minimal and I estimate when all done will be no more than £150 all in and the the additional carrier means no major modification to the current wheel
Catch up again soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: smoothoperator on October 20, 2021, 06:46:40 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on October 20, 2021, 06:50:20 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211020/37bc73f89d71a9a198f57e29b40e73cf.jpg)
Here is the same type of set up on my hybrid I am building that is currently under a dust sheet as the little CB400F has stolen my
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211020/6cd1e4d0e866919ea8beb7849c838863.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211020/20333befa84798ba1ebeeaacaa044359.jpg)
Then a torque arm will run from the hanger to the original torque arm mounting point on the swing arm
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Post by: Charlie J on October 20, 2021, 07:39:22 PM
Essential Machining Skills: Working with a Lathe, Part One
Essential Machining Skills: Working with a Lathe, Part Two
Essential Machining Skills: Working with a Lathe, Part Three
Post by: allankelly1 on October 21, 2021, 12:39:23 PM
In the end reduced disc by 14mm to match pad width
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211021/a23773a26038524fcfa7164c8ce3a52d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211021/6da89dbf12bf3ca85fc51a6793b3801f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211021/df139aef8ff7732e3b4cf930c534edec.jpg)
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Post by: Laverdaroo on October 21, 2021, 12:48:19 PM
Great playing with the lathe's, terribly satisfying, mine is still in storage as we're probably moving again quite soon so never unpacked it and then started the 400 build....doh!. I had to go and have a check and an 'oil up' the other day to see if it was suffering but all was good. Cant wait to get it out again there's a job list building as I type!
Great project to watch on here and super interesting how you've sorted the problems you've encountered. Really looking forward to a finished part when you've managed to sort all the issues out.
Oh, and still amazed what you can turn out on that printer thingy :o you've got, utterly in awe of it. That being said, I want a mill table before I get another computer add on!! ;D
Keep at it mate 8)
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on October 21, 2021, 01:07:11 PM
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Post by: allankelly1 on October 21, 2021, 01:24:05 PM
Next time you get the lathe out can you make a short video for us non-engineer types?Yes will do
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Also will try to upload a short video of the 3D printer when it is making my prototype caliper hanger
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Post by: SumpMagnet on October 21, 2021, 06:49:21 PM
So I'm just making do with watching what other people are doing! And I love seeing projects like this unfold, and the problems getting solved one by one.
Post by: allankelly1 on October 21, 2021, 09:40:00 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211021/f90e46e0f3906d9462bd3640b5b8f5b5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211021/e06ad77b039dc60415e50cc56a680342.jpg)
It not quite right as need to allow a bit more clearance for the lower section of the swing arm but not too far off either so happy so far
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211021/b66e316826cd52f82f6e8d0bb1739c96.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211021/d66e8e993f0f1363e57993df9449e0a5.jpg)
Not at work tomorrow so can sort out the changes and print a mk2 version
Happy days
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Laverdaroo on October 21, 2021, 10:01:01 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on October 22, 2021, 09:02:41 AM
Something in detail I feel that may be worth considering regarding the drive from wheel to disc flange as I can't see much detail in the photo. It looks to me as the "poles" are to be bolted to the disc carrier but doesn't appear to hold much resistance to them being displaced under torque load.
Taking a different approach would improve resistance to that possibility. If you visualise something in the form of a car brake drum bolted to the rear of the disc carrier with it's open edge toward the wheel drive lugs, then machine castellation form into the edge such that it drops within the drive lug pockets. The rotational load would be more effectively resisted with the "skin" of the drum structure to transfer torque between the two.
If the detail location is available within the structure, you could put studs into that drum face aligned with holes through the disc mount and disc such that assembly would be placing the drum into place, disc onto studs, then tighten the whole assembly (very like a car wheel stud assembly) to make a very simple and high torque transfer without having to have multiple mounts.
Post by: allankelly1 on October 22, 2021, 09:41:29 AM
That what I have been thinking about
The 4 poles were just an idea but going to look to see if I can develop this idea this into a solid billet rather than 4 separate legs and then design the bottom section to match as much as possible the four cavities in the hub
This will be much stronger and almost over engineered
Good this is like the other parts I can print a prototype and see how it fit before I make the final part
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on October 22, 2021, 09:46:25 AM
If you dont mind me asking, what sort of cost can you attribute to the parts you're printing and WTF do you print them out of? Sorry, learning here ;DHi
Material I am using is either PLA or ABS
If I had to estimate my print costs so far are no more than about £10 which is nothing as it saves very costly mistake later when the final part is not right
Got the caliper bracket design tweaked this morning and is now cooking on the printer
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/f46cd10ea2f08fd0be031e47bc50bbc6.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/e77b48a1a5bae19b041886927624218c.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/d2f3de9de188b0b7efe987115b660134.jpg)
Hopefully later today it will be done and I will post some pics if it looks right
Best wishes Al
Ps v2 also has the torque arm mounting hole added too
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Post by: allankelly1 on October 22, 2021, 09:49:43 AM
You could also think about including the spacers into the caliper bracket, would certainly make it far stronger, also looks like you'd need an additional spacer between the hanger and the swinging arm or is that optical?Hi Oldjob
The original design was not quite right as like you could see there was a issue with the swing arm to hanger clearances
Got a v2 cooking at the mo with the correct (I hope) clearances so hopefully this will be better and the hanger will sit against the wheel pulls correctly
Will post some pics later
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Sesman on October 22, 2021, 10:12:02 AM
Post by: allankelly1 on October 22, 2021, 11:59:29 AM
Let hope it fits ok
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/1c55c9773f200dc34e73a6b0785c15bc.jpg)
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Post by: allankelly1 on October 22, 2021, 12:15:37 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/ac4012565878f931a9d5cdc388228cfd.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/d69809972f069728a7072cd27d18cd1c.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/bac3e2f69dfb1945e496a461ba18270e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/f7d0f58f1dba355cde23aa61f12b1103.jpg)
Happy with that
Will need to make up the required wheel spacers nearer the time that will replace the round black and white areas you see at the moment
All really that is left to do is sort out a torque arm that fits between that hole in the hanger and the original fixed pint on the swing arm and improve the hub locking assembly as per the earlier post this morning which I see as a no brainier
As the wheel assembly design is almost complete and looks totally practical and all the main problems are solved I will next look to see how I can sort the rearsets to accept a master cylinder which will need my thinking cap on as it will need to look pleasing / factory like the rear disc assembly
Hope all are enjoying the posts so far
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Spitfire on October 22, 2021, 01:09:26 PM
Cheers
Denis
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 22, 2021, 06:25:20 PM
Next time you get the lathe out can you make a short video for us non-engineer types?
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I'd love to but I'm not an engineer, I'm an aquatic consultant but just an addicted shed twiddler. I' make some inroads to havin a go once we move.
Post by: allankelly1 on October 22, 2021, 06:36:19 PM
Yep, that looks much better, great work, nice to see someone thinking outside of the box.Hi Oddjob
Thanks for the
On a mk3 version at the mo as added an extra lug so the torque arm fitting is just outside the disc outer diameter after looking at some other sets up on the internet and it keeps the torque arm to caliper mounting point as a nice 90degree “elbow”
Also got a couple of rose joints on order so I can make up a nice custom length torque arm from two rose joints, a length of studding and a alloy tube machine to the correct length that slips over the studding so it looks pleasing to the eyes
All is now slowly coming together
Best wishes Al
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Post by: K2-K6 on October 22, 2021, 08:00:32 PM
Looks particularly neat in this view and almost a standard build.
When modifying in this way it often has impact in that you have to do a double take and ask yourself if that's original or not :) very elegant conversion.
Post by: allankelly1 on October 26, 2021, 06:21:05 PM
Quick update
Now as I have the final design for the disc carrier have bit the bullet and now made my first aluminium part for this disc conversion project
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/892e2f4d7be212c16103a4f15721f7d4.jpg)
Also as you can see for the disc carrier assembly I have added a smaller lip seal seal housing that mounts on the main carrier which both housed a shaft lip seal to prevent the ingress of dirt. And due the inner bore of the seal housing being less than the outrigger bearing OD, this seal housing also locks the outrigger bearing in its location bore to remove and possible side float
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/dec47d10cbcf9dbe8812a9d5e371b51c.jpg)
For the inner side of the disc carrier to increase radial location further, the rear of the disc carrier has a bore that locates on the original machined OD on the hub boss that carries one of the wheel bearings,
And as you can see below there is also the required inner bearing spacer so that you can tighten up the wheel spindle correctly without placing any side loading on any of the three ball bearing inner race assemblies
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/2c7531f386472387d61ec1933b24d514.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/6e0a9ab588b7bd3f6750872c205c3812.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/51eefb10e9bc280503651217424331d9.jpg)
Lastly disc bolts on and a spacer fits in the lip seal to keep any dirt out
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/212c1528bf86ad98ad5e9ac4b2ebccac.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/45340c8130d989228f8d41ad0badd14d.jpg)
Then fitted on the bike with an extra dummy 17mm spacer (to represent the caliper hanger thickness) and all looks good. And with wheel spindle tight the wheel and disk revolve as planned
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/f663bcebc75309328d91969c9047695a.jpg)
Lastly finally after a few design changes got the caliper hanger right, that now has the required torque arm fitting, and now ordered two rose joints so I can make up the torque arm to length using the rose joints, a length of m8 studding and a nice alloy tube cut to the correct length to cover up the studding
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/4373e2810294d8befa6f8706fa3d4071.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/9f8e795b44d3771b57d10d1fde840850.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211026/c838548a8de1008716e6a35e43cdd88e.jpg)
I still have the disc to wheel hub locking part to finish and this is going to be a one piece part rather than four separate posts for strength but the project is making good progress and really happy so far
Next big job is to design and print the disc to hub locker and once this is done and both the disc locker and the hanger are in aluminium that’s pretty well the back wheel assembly complete
Think that’s all for now
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Laverdaroo on October 26, 2021, 07:35:07 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on October 30, 2021, 05:18:53 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211030/097415f6184a274007778415df480f62.jpg)
And now fitted on
Must admit pretty proud of what has been achieved so far and will leave it to you to decide, but looks factory fresh / OM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211030/1fcd3400f3fc395376793f16421b118a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211030/6ce65d981e1b6b2b4c25dcd14a0f28e3.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211030/3405b730ff7d0046296e55dcd45d10fe.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211030/d3412771e3c784d900bf5d9e0a0f3671.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211030/fad6518003f6642a38d11011d9dffd6f.jpg)
Still got to fit the disc carrier locker unit which is now designed in my head and the final design of caliper hanger has now being subbed out to a mate. So going to start work out how to modify the rearsets to take a master cylinder as that is really the next thing to be solved
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 30, 2021, 05:55:29 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on October 30, 2021, 06:01:02 PM
Just need to source the correct Master cylinder bore and any brake system can be made to lock if required
Really it’s just simple hydraulics theory where a for a fixed size caliper piston, a smaller MC bore will give more “feel” with more pedal movement to fully apply the brake and a bigger MC bore will give less pedal movement and “feel” etc due to the different size MC bore and swept volumes
On my Rd like lots of others that have a twin disc 350 we have changed from a standard 5/8 to a 1/2 bore for the front brake MC cylinder and the change is like night and day even with slightly more lever movement due to the reduction in bore size
Interesting for my twin disc front conversion I used the original single M/C from D/S with no problems even though in theory the volume of fluid needed is twice the volume due to the master cylinder now operating two pistons of roughly the same diameter as the original single piston unit
And currently as the Brembo unit is from a cagiva Mito that has the same size disc as currently now fitted to the Honda (226mm) for a starting point have for the time being got the same M/C as fitted to the Mito
Lastly it will also depend on “lever length” for my rearsets conversion to get the correct feel and braking
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Post by: Tomb on October 30, 2021, 06:38:06 PM
And agree with Allan Kelly, reducing MC piston dia' on some of my old bikes has made a huge difference to braking ability, or the other way round I have put bigger (more pistons) calipers on and reach the same effect. Yes as Allan says, more lever travel, but when doing the mod I upgrade to braided steel hoses and service the brake so no real difference is noticed.
Post by: Bryanj on October 30, 2021, 08:26:51 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on October 30, 2021, 09:44:18 PM
Comments on balance of systems, as already noted it's shifting the hydraulic reduction ratio that trims it. Competition car balance adjustment pedal arrangements use a mastercylinder for each the front and rear systems descreet from one another and balanced initially by bore size. Then by moving the fulcrum between the two it can give bias to front or rear depending on driver choice.
For a combined system on the bike, you could use a front mastercylinder (cable operated from pedal and hidden) but with a pass through line from front system that goes in a bespoke cap to reservoir. This pushes the rear caliper along with the front brakes, but if you use the rear to operate the remote mc it seals the line from the front and just actuates the rear independently. This is the arrangement used in rally cars for years as hydraulic handbrake setup.
Post by: allankelly1 on October 30, 2021, 09:58:07 PM
Yes know the bias system well as had the same set up when I build my Dax Rush many years ago that has a twin master cylinders for front / rear brakes so you could balance the brake bias front to rear
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211030/bcd239b927e10cc1d389d1cb443c55a5.jpg)
For the bike just going for a independent rear brake system with a separate master cylinder for just the rear wheel
Much easier to set up and plumb
Catch up again soon and thank you for all the positive comments
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Spitfire on October 31, 2021, 09:30:20 AM
Cheers
Dennis
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 31, 2021, 10:07:01 AM
Post by: taysidedragon on October 31, 2021, 11:02:12 AM
I've toyed with the idea of machining a new front brake arm, doing away with the pivot so that the arm is fixed directly to the fork leg mountings, then using a suitable caliper with sliding pins. Maybe a floating disc as well, if available. Braking should be stronger and it would get rid of the pesky squeal! 🙂
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 31, 2021, 11:04:22 AM
I know this is jumping the gun a bit Allan, but when you've finished the rear brake are you going to do an upgrade on the front brake?
I've toyed with the idea of machining a new front brake arm, doing away with the pivot so that the arm is fixed directly to the fork leg mountings, then using a suitable caliper with sliding pins. Maybe a floating disc as well, if available. Braking should be stronger and it would get rid of the pesky squeal! 🙂
Allan's bike has already got twin front discs.
Post by: taysidedragon on October 31, 2021, 11:10:54 AM
I know this is jumping the gun a bit Allan, but when you've finished the rear brake are you going to do an upgrade on the front brake?
I've toyed with the idea of machining a new front brake arm, doing away with the pivot so that the arm is fixed directly to the fork leg mountings, then using a suitable caliper with sliding pins. Maybe a floating disc as well, if available. Braking should be stronger and it would get rid of the pesky squeal! 🙂
Allan's bike has already got twin front discs.
Yeah, I forgot that. I might try it myself, but I'll probably need some help. 🙂
Post by: allankelly1 on October 31, 2021, 11:11:14 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211031/566b35452d48d4b91fdc2a7ce39e505e.jpg)
Big difference
Best wishes Al
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Post by: taysidedragon on October 31, 2021, 11:13:15 AM
As Ted said twin upgrade done already with forks, calipers and discs from a cb400n and some calipers that are the sliding type (plus a few other changes to fit the required speedo drive
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211031/566b35452d48d4b91fdc2a7ce39e505e.jpg)
Big difference
Best wishes Al
Looks great Allan. 👍
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Post by: K2-K6 on October 31, 2021, 11:25:49 AM
I upgraded the rear brakes on my Cooper S back in the 1970,s no dual brake circuits on them at the time - the rear drums would lock up really easily after my rear wheel cylinder upgrade - ended up fitting an adjustable brake balancer to replace the existing fixed one mounted on the rear subframe. Worked a treat.
Cars like Triumph Dolomite Sprint had a proportioning valve on rear line that varied line pressure as the rear suspension rose under braking load to keep the balance toward optimum. If the rear stayed down from payload it could use more rear brake without locking.
Something similar is on some current light vans to do the same for empty vs full cargo.
On a bike, I like the rear quite "dead" so you can don't have to concentrate on it in emergency. Also adjust the pedal so it's at further reaches of ankle position to help prevent ham fisted application from moi :D
Post by: allankelly1 on October 31, 2021, 01:24:43 PM
A bit more playing with the project this morning
Did a quick design on the pc and printed out my possible layout for my master cylinder operating arm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211031/0b9c789b32fb663bc4d6ff24b830d71c.jpg)
It retains the original brake pedal mount / pivot unit and is just a double arm to convert the rotary movement into a linear movement required for the master cylinder operation.
Also the master cylinder arm will have a series of holes in the master cylinder mounting arm side so you can adjust the ratio of pedal movement to master cylinder movement
Lastly as I am using the original brake pedal pivot unit, I will also solve my brake light switch set up as it will be as original
Now off to design for now a simple back plate that boltsbto the Raask rear-set mount so I can dummy up the full assembly and once happily I can tidy up the design so it looks pleasing to the eye and then crack on with the final parts again in aluminium
Happy days
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on October 31, 2021, 07:53:35 PM
Had a go at designing / testing out the master cylinder mount concept this evening
Not bad for a first try
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211031/bef49443bb50f2eff41a6fb2e2d5832a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211031/87a2385e7663a92033936d668341eac3.gif)
Need to increase the cylinder movement but this should be a simple case of adjusting the hole position for both the original rearsets bell crank extension part where it mounts the the new lever and the master cylinder mounting position and rotate the master cylinder accordingly but in essence the idea looks ok and no modifications required to the original rearsets
Really made some progress this weekend
Best wishes and have a good week all Al
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Post by: K2-K6 on October 31, 2021, 08:22:16 PM
If you look at the changing alignment of the first link it's going toward a regressive ratio as it gets into travel. If you moved the top right pivot (first joint on white link) to halfway between current location and it's main pivot it will move the linkage to a more progressive ratio.
Aesthetically odd at rest as the geometry won't look parallel, but as the brake pressure gets higher in use it will probably give it more feel as well as giving you more cylinder stroke with just one alteration.
Post by: allankelly1 on October 31, 2021, 08:45:26 PM
Looks good in concept, obviously gives you real look at fine tuning before committing.Thanks for the input
If you look at the changing alignment of the first link it's going toward a regressive ratio as it gets into travel. If you moved the top right pivot (first joint on white link) to halfway between current location and it's main pivot it will move the linkage to a more progressive ratio.
Aesthetically odd at rest as the geometry won't look parallel, but as the brake pressure gets higher in use it will probably give it more feel as well as giving you more cylinder stroke with just one alteration.
Yes I think the long arm is a bit to long (copied the original arm) and if I shorten it it will both be more progressive with the knock on effect of increasing the cylinder movement in it current hole position
Like you said plenty of room to develop the correct positions/ ratios so the brake is progressive with lots of feel and.is not a on / off type brake with nothing in between
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 03, 2021, 07:50:19 PM
Had a play with the master cylinder set up an now not a million miles away
Ratio is much better and this is a video of the full master cylinder movement verses pedal which in theory will be less with fluid in the system
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211103/ad9e962b923a74210d1d41a3b24388ad.gif)
Also looks less like a mecanno part and more refined in shape and looks and now has added a remote fluid reservoir
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211103/e8269dbb651b256bc06cf2011b3549cf.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211103/33a8a84f1d4c3438b6075e6b45efb246.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211103/8bd7c4ff849c94e92e944d6397ead02b.jpg)
Think the next stage is to get a custom hose made from Venhill so I can temporarily fill the system and just see what the final pedal movement is and hopefully the master cylinder suitable or is I need to source a different bore size and if it feels ok as just a bench test I will commit to aluminium parts that will be anodised black so the set up blends in with the Raask mounting plate
Catch up again soon and best wishes Al
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 03, 2021, 08:04:54 PM
Lovely work on the refinements, looks wicked and will be brilliant in anodised black 8)
Post by: allankelly1 on November 03, 2021, 08:11:22 PM
At the moment the master is well in board of the foot peg
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211103/ed00959c0bac696dd9828c7eb7dddfa6.jpg)
But may make up a small cover plate again anodised in black that fixes to the outside of the MC to cover all and will stop your heel catching anything
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 03, 2021, 08:12:52 PM
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 03, 2021, 08:57:07 PM
Post by: 400 Cafe Racer on November 03, 2021, 10:20:37 PM
Lovely chubley
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/ac4012565878f931a9d5cdc388228cfd.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/d69809972f069728a7072cd27d18cd1c.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/bac3e2f69dfb1945e496a461ba18270e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/f7d0f58f1dba355cde23aa61f12b1103.jpg)
Happy with that
Will need to make up the required wheel spacers nearer the time that will replace the round black and white areas you see at the moment
All really that is left to do is sort out a torque arm that fits between that hole in the hanger and the original fixed pint on the swing arm and improve the hub locking assembly as per the earlier post this morning which I see as a no brainier
As the wheel assembly design is almost complete and looks totally practical and all the main problems are solved I will next look to see how I can sort the rearsets to accept a master cylinder which will need my thinking cap on as it will need to look pleasing / factory like the rear disc assembly
Hope all are enjoying the posts so far
Best wishes Al
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Hi Allan,
I've just caught up with the progress on your disc brake conversion, some lovely work going on there, nicely finished.
Looking at the mounting position of the underslung caliper, I just wondered what your thoughts are on potential water soaking of the pads from spray coming off the front wheel, it looks as though it could be in the line of fire. ?
What do you think ?
Regards
Dennis
Post by: allankelly1 on November 03, 2021, 10:40:51 PM
Maybe slight lower but still under slung
Worse if it was an issue I could always add a subtle 3 d printed “deflector” mounted on my lower exhaust mount that sat in front of the caliper for extra protection from spray if I ever go out in the rain
Lastly pads are well hidden / shrouded inside the caliper due to it being an opposed piston unit rather than a sliding type with minimal gap for the disc thru the caliper body (about 1mm per side clearance between disc and caliper body)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211103/44f0d248776d1c60c11fea48d5d34dea.jpg)
Best wishes Al
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211103/e4d41bf1d9584d65f9275a071699c09d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211103/d3054a1bd926b768626f28a0e01d648b.jpg)
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Post by: 400 Cafe Racer on November 05, 2021, 10:16:58 PM
Yes I know what you mean. !!!
The Delkevic looks very interesting. Do you have any video footage so we can all hear that "music" through the rev range with the 400f on song. ??
Regards
Dennis ;) ;)
Post by: allankelly1 on November 06, 2021, 08:16:11 AM
" if I ever go out in the rain" :D :D :DWill sort a YouTube link out for you
Yes I know what you mean. !!!
The Delkevic looks very interesting. Do you have any video footage so we can all hear that "music" through the rev range with the 400f on song. ??
Regards
Dennis ;) ;)
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 06, 2021, 08:40:01 AM
The 3d printer you are using is giving really good results, can I ask what model it is and approx cost of running it?Hi Oddjob
I am a greedy person
I have three in total, two ultimaker 2’s and bought my son last Xmas a Flashforge creator pro 2 that I borrow now and then (plus jump on his pc that has Fusion 360 when I cannot use my SolidWorks pc)
The ultimakers tend to get used for big stuff like the disc carrier and my rd sale parts like replacement clock cases
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/17ad984d77a973ec769d79b60934580c.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/915c73ae0555d0010be7bdefccbcb204.jpg)
and the flashforge for smaller stuff like the rear set stuff
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/4c3a5d007bde71cf6210a7f19a564afd.jpg)
And some nice dual extrusion/ colour parts too in ABS as the flash forge is good for fine detailed parts due to it using a smaller nozzle and filament and has a more controlled filament feed system
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/f7cab61fd519af3cd15a4dc3d763cd1e.jpg)
As for running costs, other than upfront purchase and a few maintenance parts they run for free and at a good profit
as they are always on the go making parts for eBay / FB and the Rd forums as shown below as a little home business as well as home projects too like the disc conversion (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/e7d5a8418877dd1925fde8c1d60c0c3b.jpg)
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 06, 2021, 08:44:08 AM
" if I ever go out in the rain" :D :D :D
Yes I know what you mean. !!!
The Delkevic looks very interesting. Do you have any video footage so we can all hear that "music" through the rev range with the 400f on song. ??
Regards
Dennis ;) ;)
Hi Dennis
Yes the Delkevic is a nice stainless system pipe and much cheaper than a yoshi pipe and British made
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/090e4dea62033d88da3177453044b139.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/256df8365d1c0bc9bcf55f958b8586ff.jpg)
As for the sound
“Hear” you go
Not great videos but these two show how to be anti social
Well the little Honda is a stable mate to a hooligan RD350LC
https://youtu.be/npmpA5Oly24.
https://youtu.be/WqMzsvLBpJA
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 06, 2021, 10:53:19 AM
Go on put the LC on here, you nust have a sound track, aahh, go on...............please? 8)
Post by: allankelly1 on November 06, 2021, 11:01:18 AM
Ok Just for you cos you did say please
Again is not great as it was taken on the first start up after the restoration but still should stir up 2t memories
https://youtube.com/shorts/Piqu9AfEeww?feature=share
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 06, 2021, 11:24:41 AM
Bet your garage smelt GORJUSS! ;D 8)
Post by: allankelly1 on November 06, 2021, 11:33:46 AM
I had goose pimples as soon as I heard it! cheers Al, youve made a reasonably young, old fart, very happy ;D ;DYou are welcome
Bet your garage smelt GORJUSS! ;D 8)
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Post by: 400 Cafe Racer on November 06, 2021, 05:12:34 PM
" if I ever go out in the rain" :D :D :D
Yes I know what you mean. !!!
The Delkevic looks very interesting. Do you have any video footage so we can all hear that "music" through the rev range with the 400f on song. ??
Regards
Dennis ;) ;)
Hi Dennis
Yes the Delkevic is a nice stainless system pipe and much cheaper than a yoshi pipe and British made
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/090e4dea62033d88da3177453044b139.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/256df8365d1c0bc9bcf55f958b8586ff.jpg)
As for the sound
“Hear” you go
Not great videos but these two show how to be anti social
Well the little Honda is a stable mate to a hooligan RD350LC
https://youtu.be/npmpA5Oly24.
https://youtu.be/WqMzsvLBpJA
Best wishes Al
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hi Al,
Thanks for the "music" of the Delkevic. It sounds like a nice balance, not too obtrusive while cruising and releasing the full throaty character of the 400 Four on acceleration and upper rev band. Its the first chance I've had to hear the Delkevic on the 400 Four.
Cheers, much appreciated. ;) :)
Dennis
Post by: allankelly1 on November 06, 2021, 05:15:04 PM
No problem and glad you like" if I ever go out in the rain" :D :D :D
Yes I know what you mean. !!!
The Delkevic looks very interesting. Do you have any video footage so we can all hear that "music" through the rev range with the 400f on song. ??
Regards
Dennis ;) ;)
Hi Dennis
Yes the Delkevic is a nice stainless system pipe and much cheaper than a yoshi pipe and British made
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/090e4dea62033d88da3177453044b139.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/256df8365d1c0bc9bcf55f958b8586ff.jpg)
As for the sound
“Hear” you go
Not great videos but these two show how to be anti social
Well the little Honda is a stable mate to a hooligan RD350LC
https://youtu.be/npmpA5Oly24.
https://youtu.be/WqMzsvLBpJA
Best wishes Al
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hi Al,
Thanks for the "music" of the Delkevic. It sounds like a nice balance, not too obtrusive while cruising and releasing the full throaty character of the 400 Four on acceleration and upper rev band. Its the first chance I've had to hear the Delkevic on the 400 Four.
Cheers, much appreciated. ;) :)
Dennis
Even the darling wife thinks it sounds awesome and prefers it to the RD
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 07, 2021, 04:45:53 PM
There a a few free 3d packages out there and I think you can get Autodesk as a free trial package and if you have a “sibling” in full time education you can get the full package as a student for all the time they are in full time education as I did with Logan also as he now has an account once he leaves full time education he can get a license with up to 75% discount
Also it’s easy to learn and once you understand the principles of how a model is created you are away
For the flash forge don’t forget this is a dual unit thats a bit more pricy but all printers run free downloaded “slicer” software so the real outlay is the printer and a decent pc
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 07, 2021, 04:57:19 PM
If you are after sometime I would be willling to help out but as it a home hobby things do take time
Also don’t forget most time I am limited to only smaller items and my disc carrier was at my printers limit for size
Feel free to pm me if you want
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 07, 2021, 05:03:53 PM
Just bought this
After a chat to the real “boss” an early Xmas prezzy for the rear disc conversion project
Original Dresda box swing arm (hence my other thread on interchangeability for swing arms)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211107/1b2b5ca3d6f82ac72aef3fee83373dd2.jpg)
Will need a bit of TLC but another non standard part
for the old girl and will go well with the rear disc conversion Only problem is this bike modification process has now started to become an obsession
Also now got my hose from Venhill so should be able to test fit this too to see if I got my hose length right
Catch up again soon and all have a good week
Best wishes and ride safe Al
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Post by: Bryanj on November 07, 2021, 05:56:31 PM
PM me for why
Post by: allankelly1 on November 07, 2021, 06:55:22 PM
Also this sleeve should be wide enough to allow a slight side float of the arm
In the frame with the bolt fully tight?
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 07, 2021, 07:08:22 PM
Mine is running needle rollers, as should the Dresda arm of yours.
Thanks Oddjob for the info
Looking forward to adding this little tweak to the bike even if it needs a tweak
Also offer is still there if I can help you with any 3d project
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Bryanj on November 07, 2021, 07:46:37 PM
Have a box arm that is fitted with bushes that pivot on the bolt, its crap and useless unless i get them bored to fit a standard collar and narrowed enough for the collar to be trapped with clearance for arm.
Thats what the phenolic thrusts in original arms and flanges on brass replacements are for.
Post by: allankelly1 on November 07, 2021, 07:50:39 PM
Thats the problem Ken and all as if it pivots on the bolt without a collar or spacer to get trapped in the frame you cant do the bolt up tight without restricting swing arm movement and if you leave it loose enough for arm to move the holes in the frame wear.Sounds like a easy engineering fix
Have a box arm that is fitted with bushes that pivot on the bolt, its crap and useless unless i get them bored to fit a standard collar and narrowed enough for the collar to be trapped with clearance for arm.
Thats what the phenolic thrusts in original arms and flanges on brass replacements are for.
I will see what I receive and then if require modify so the the pivot bolt can be tightened but still maintain some slight side float no matter if it is a taper / needle bearings or a plain push set up
Can’t be any harder than the rear disc conversion
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Post by: Bryanj on November 07, 2021, 08:43:44 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on November 07, 2021, 08:50:37 PM
All you then you need is the correct sideways float that can be adjusted on shims and some dust covers
Lastly you can alway add a grease nipple
But thank you for the advanced warning on what to expect
Best wishes always Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 10, 2021, 12:10:20 PM
Got Dresda swing arm today
Very happy so far and it’s the taper roller bearing type so happy days
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211110/7d084da44af90bc4ef58a97779753a6b.jpg)
Will need some TLC like the bearings regreasing and a powder coat or paint but things are on the up
Also sorted my brake line feed and bleed the system
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211110/093eb4604ed1d44e3ea82f88cf74ac53.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211110/e274aa1f482cf58481aae5bb8d7e936a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211110/af88d09ad211f777997e5ced73b1f461.jpg)
And as predicted pedal movement is much less with the system filled and bleed
Just need to sort out all the rearsets parts in aluminium etc and the system should be up and running
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Post by: Bryanj on November 10, 2021, 12:31:13 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on November 10, 2021, 12:57:36 PM
The bolt supplied “looks” the same diameter as the original swing arm frame bolt holes but without removing the arm I cannot confirm
So I have please a couple of questions
Why diameter is the original swing arm spindle please?
Also what is the frame internal distance please
between the two mounting holes / plates
That way I can dummy up the assembly on the bench first as rather than setting the preload in the tapers via the castle nut I will make an internal precision length spacer tube that sets the inner race distance (like a internal wheel bearing Spacer) so the pivot bolt can be just tightened up fully (rather than tightened just to set the taper roller preload) without overloading side preload on the taper bearings if that makes sense?
Many thanks in advance
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Bryanj on November 10, 2021, 01:34:30 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on November 10, 2021, 01:36:59 PM
I will strip it out this weekend and put a plan together
as bike is now drained down for the winterAl least it at taper bearing that in my mind is the best set up as the bearing cope with both axial and radial loads
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 10, 2021, 04:39:51 PM
Original is 14mm.
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Post by: K2-K6 on November 10, 2021, 08:21:15 PM
If the arm and bearings are a tight fit in the frame (you may have to undo the rear engine mounts if they pull the frame in) then the spindle can be torqued to 25lb/ft with them free floating. They are designed to take axial load in that way without any problems at all, generally people have been squeamish about torqing them as such which may lead to problems.
They are not like a wheel bearing joint in that the load is mostly radial on those, with very little pure axial demand. A internal spacer would be used if you wanted to put much higher torque load on the threads, such as a differential pinion assembly in which the bearing preload is high to prevent axial shunt, also the securing threads high torque demand such that it doesn't loosen in service life.
The swing arm bearings have a comparatively easy life and some preloading will help maintain positional accuracy under road conditions.
The design does a very clever balance of forces in that location, being very able to resist the expected input while remaining so very simple.
He placed the bearings right out by the frame, giving them the easiest task possible to resist frame torsion load (if you look from the back of the bike and tried to rotate the top of the wheel one way, with the bottom across the other way) but by using roller bearings if the arms move such that it twists the main pivot tube in it's own torsion, then it can't lock up as plain bearings risk doing from that tube twisting.
Post by: K2-K6 on November 10, 2021, 08:26:05 PM
Hasn't got a disc conversion like yours though Alsn :D
Post by: allankelly1 on November 10, 2021, 08:52:18 PM
Ok will look into the need not to have a spacer tube
And have just dry fitted it tonight just the see what I need to modify(and check how it fits)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211110/ef1073f2049e5d9d97bb239537cee4bd.jpg)
I love the design and love the use of taper roller bearings (proper job) rather than plain bushes and oring seals to keep the dirt out.
The only real snag is the arm is about 16mm smaller across the legs compared with the Honda item due to the arm being a 25mm wide box section so to keep wheel geometry correct I will need to
remove 8mm from the sprocket side spacer and then check chain alignment / sprocket clearance
The only other small issue I see is the caliper hanger not won’t fit / align with the disc correctly due to increase in the box section size (as originally the hanger was designed to be inboard of the swing arm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211110/9c717a29774dedaa6e9d5e376d5a762d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211110/43b792b71a19a983dee14ff2fab3c26b.jpg)
so to get round this in will machine a small
“close” 10mm slot in the bottom of the arm so the caliper hanger fits inside the box section rather (and the caliper hanger will
also act as one of the wheel pulls too) This will then create the correct calliper off set and as it is located in the arm box section and will look rather neat
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211110/36b6b55517ccbb6ef18eca9da2e0c5d7.jpg)
Motto of the story is never change a idea half way thru a project but I think once done it will look rather special and to be honest I love problem solving
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 10, 2021, 08:55:00 PM
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 12, 2021, 06:40:48 PM
Even with a bitch of a back still managing to do some bits
Did another dry fit of the newly acquired Dresda swing-arm today
As mentioned I needed to modify it slightly, as due to it being a box section, the caliper hanger needs to “fit” inside by adding a slot in the bottom as you can see in the following pics
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211112/a2dd54a608d3e04e2aabeb3a235d9511.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211112/ed3ab431c1878bd82a041ad39c16e723.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211112/e3d110f841567b5bca86a40a4f89c31e.jpg)
Now need to make a different wheel pull for that side due to how I have fitted the hanger inside the box section, but as Baldric would say “sir I got an idea” and yes it is as cunning as a fox
A bit more of the project sorted
Catch up again soon and have a good weekend Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 15, 2021, 10:50:15 AM
Started the design for the disc locker unit
First started with a CAD model of what I thought should work
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211115/af6b0dd5995e1b42d67878c1771b519d.jpg)
Then did a print in ABS
Note slots are to clear all internal webs to maintain hub strength
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211115/c6876dd442de3f6eaf4bc5b568f6c328.jpg)
Then tried it in the original hub where the four legs locate snuggly in the four pockets between the bonded rubber casting bosses
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211115/62254b53e4cf050acd97cb9686b721d7.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211115/dab442aae2aad9a70286ca64354df49e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211115/f67c0be1e45431b59b3308ef012391ab.jpg)
On initial fit it really is a nice snug fit
Finally attached to the disc holder and refitted
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211115/8d5f7d1802d13acd3959b91e9f32b435.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211115/ab4a411c6454fec7706faeae48d1273a.jpg)
And final fit in the hub
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211115/b08e089ae9844995c722b1bbd9a9e9b4.jpg)
Disc locker looks spot on and I think is more than up to the task of stopping disc carrier rotation under braking
Still waiting the other part in their final material and once these are in and fitted will crack on with this final part in aluminium
Think that’s all for now
Catch up again soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Bryanj on November 15, 2021, 11:04:56 AM
Post by: allankelly1 on November 15, 2021, 11:43:05 AM
Trouble is I also have a day job and other stuff going such a family and a 3d printing cottage business running in the background
But once the project is done I would only be too happy to share drawings etc so anybody who wants to do the change rather than start from scratch at least will have all the required parts drawn so they can then get the bits made by their supplier
Of course a lottery win might change that
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Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on November 15, 2021, 12:30:54 PM
3D printed cottages…
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Post by: taysidedragon on November 15, 2021, 12:46:38 PM
Blimey.
3D printed cottages…
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Funnily enough, they are 3D printing houses!
Post by: K2-K6 on November 15, 2021, 02:37:09 PM
Blimey.
3D printed cottages…
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Funnily enough, they are 3D printing houses!
Even more amusing that all buildings are effectively 3D "printed" if you think further about it, just the scale and materials that differ from how we look at small printers now.
Builders are just the mechanism in a giant scalable 3D printing machine, particularly if you watch a time lapse recording of a building going upward.
Post by: taysidedragon on November 15, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on November 15, 2021, 03:11:09 PM
Blimey.
3D printed cottages…
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 24, 2021, 07:15:15 PM
Quick update
Got my first set of parts back from my CNC friend
All now fitted and brake bleed
Looks the biz and I think I will leave the supplied parts in their bead blasted finish for now
All that is left is the disc locker unit and a modified wheel pull for the caliper side ((due to changing the swing arm to a original Dresda unit) that is now in the making and then hopefully when’s that’s all fitted that this “project” done and I can move onto that 460cc engine build
Here are the pics
Hope you like
Best wishes and catch up soon Al
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/0ac48f0e4369b348690384290da55970.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/71c3be59bb6e91ac41510f0a77232a7c.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/5d88cec7b2e388aed4e08db1a913f945.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/41b85b1cb92590b05055e328fa5d4335.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/33a0e033e45b2d78cabd016fa2f17542.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/190e15af62ce28c0a347f490d18c1b90.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/c83724eb253bcd53d99ef2c585151a46.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/ecf64b161fc23a19b00a32427b1ad15c.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211124/b2f8cd404b22fd49cbb02156bc5623ca.jpg)
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 24, 2021, 07:40:48 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on November 24, 2021, 08:30:37 PM
Looks really good and recording of it gives others a real insight into just what it takes bringing something like this to completion. Willing to bet you're going to get quite some questions when out and about riding it.
Cracking work.
Post by: Bryanj on November 24, 2021, 08:42:18 PM
As its over 40 that dont really come into it just me being picky
Post by: allankelly1 on November 24, 2021, 08:50:09 PM
Thanks for the
Yes once finish bolts will be either split pined, a nylock used if no heat is present or like on modern brakes all bolt thread locked in place, as when you think about it the only thing on modern cars and bikes that have a fist type sliding caliper, ( including my twin disc front end) the two slide pins holding the caliper in place are just held with loctited bolts and if a bolt came loose / fell out the caliper would go the same way and only on a race bike you would drill and wire the two bolts in place
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Post by: SumpMagnet on November 24, 2021, 09:39:21 PM
Post by: zombie365 on November 27, 2021, 06:03:17 PM
Could you share what you did to get twin disk on front? did you modify standard spoked wheels?
I also have twin disk on front but with with Melber alloys. My forks and calipers are Superdream. I would prefer to have spoked wheels but unsure what is needed to get them to fit with my twin disks!
(http://[attachimg=1])
Thanks
Post by: allankelly1 on November 27, 2021, 06:05:39 PM
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 27, 2021, 06:09:05 PM
Let me know if it opens ok
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Post by: allankelly1 on December 18, 2021, 06:21:50 PM
A quiet week while recovering from my back operation.
But my buddy has finished my “disc locker” unit in aluminium that both bolts to the disc carrier and will also fit the internal features of the original wheel hub to “lock”the disc to the main wheel hub under braking.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211218/5d0e6dc50c17e4cf52834918abb1f103.jpg)
Here is the 3d printed test part fitted to my finished disc carrier
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211218/685b8f64ecc89d9ba36a9a66b09bd8fc.jpg)
It a fair piece of aluminium and the 4 legs lock into / fit in the pockets left by the bosses that are for the cush drive bonded bush’s and the slots on the disc locker miss all the internal hub webs so no side loading is applied to these areas under braking.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211218/7f10dfa5a712712e08563e208807778f.jpg)
Don’t see anything going anywhere and certainly over engineered for its purpose but that’s the way I like it
Just need to sit back now for a few weeks so my back can fully recover and then I can finish of the assembly and job all done.
Catch up soon.
Best wishes Al.
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Post by: Bryanj on December 18, 2021, 06:57:03 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on December 18, 2021, 07:04:46 PM
Not really
This part plus a new bespoke wheel pull assembly to match the caliper hanger was £140 cash and that includes material and postage too
At that price and with other stuff needed / going on like my planned back operation it was a no brainer for me to make myself the material alone via eBay was around £50 plus my time in the evening to make once I am able to go back to work
Also just had a nice number of orders for my normal 3d printed parts including a custom RDLC horn cover where the proceeds coved the above and more so make more sense for once for me to drive a 3d printer than a CNC mill
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211218/24afe79a3597a2c141bb9250b1cc1ef9.jpg)
So for once did the sensible thing and farmed it out
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Bryanj on December 18, 2021, 07:13:38 PM
Have fun and get better soon
Bryan
Post by: allankelly1 on December 18, 2021, 07:16:53 PM
The real sad bit is that “beautiful” piece of machining is going to be hidden away inside the wheel hub
No doubt I will use him again for my hybrid project too
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Oddjob on December 18, 2021, 09:43:15 PM
Sorry if you’ve covered this before as I’m on an IPad in bed and it’s slow to load pages so going through 14 pages isn’t an option.
Post by: allankelly1 on December 18, 2021, 09:58:23 PM
Not using the narrow webs at all but the locker unit places all the brake load direct on the side of all the four cast bosses that hold the four bonded bushes that carries the final drive sprocket. and due to this “drive” on the hub this is the strongest part of the hub casting as this section is also capable of handling all the drive forces created by the final drive sprocket too plus the hole / hub casting itself is strengthen further in this area via the bonded bushes steel sleeves that are pressed into the four holes from the outside of the hub.
Each leg is a “snug “ fit in this “cavity” hence why I have a circular groove on the boss legs to create a slot so it misses the circular web shown in the second picture that is in the base of these four cavities as well as the four webs radiating out from the hub centre to the the outside
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211218/7d5240442bc5a135fcfcac212b5f29d7.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211218/c37dbe91c38fb3145ca161a6e29f3758.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211218/7e790421edfa878f1b2dd8be3d71bd5e.jpg)
Plus being a solid billet rather than four separate legs like the below picture means it is very strong at resisting torque loads and torque load is spread evenly over the four boss sidewalls and the four disc locker legs
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211218/8ac7da82cd86c28fc6e5fc1d844412e4.jpg)
Like I said maybe a bit OTT as a solution but certainly is a good solution to my problem on how to “lock” the disc to the main hub
To be honest the weakest link in both the drum or disc system has to be the torque arm mounting points but that is the same design and used the same size bolts (M8)as an original torque arm so no change there either
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Oddjob on December 18, 2021, 10:31:14 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on February 05, 2022, 02:54:59 PM
Hope you are all well
Well that’s the rear disc conversion finally finished now I am back on my feet.
This was the disc locker unit that needed a bit of fettling so it fitted snugly in the original rear hub.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220205/d6ecdc03934449f3d79d7cedf5994798.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220205/46612e568ff8ebf8c126bba6ed194508.jpg)
Also back end now fitted with that original but now repainted Dresda swing arm, and a nice pair of YSS piggy back shocks from Brooks Suspension.
Really pleased on the final result and bike certainly looking very non standard, but will leave the final judgment to yourself
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220205/ea8a6c7bdffa2d46b704ab80b00c2aa0.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220205/0d5d2749c1b08f933aa1d11a84e9be30.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220205/4367994ceebbdf6476226c7dca844322.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220205/bc79d86fd5387aef2439931eb3317b66.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220205/5542215202ab2a0f360a40245836bb5a.jpg)
Lastly going to leave the rear disc plain for now, but may drill when the front end forks are is stripped and modified to fit the Race Tec emulator and spring kit that has finally arrived from the states
Catch up soon and have a good weekend Al
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Post by: Laverdaroo on February 05, 2022, 03:08:17 PM
'Top blingin' no G ;D
Post by: Oddjob on February 05, 2022, 03:23:07 PM
Have you tested it yet?
Post by: allankelly1 on February 05, 2022, 03:28:07 PM
Not yet as meant to still resting my back with no heavy lifting yet but spinning the wheel by hand system works as planned and linkage connecting for rear sets has been designed so I can adjust the “lever ratio” if I need to adjust the feel once I am out and about
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on April 25, 2022, 09:01:49 PM
Just a quick update
Finally took the old girl out tonight for a thrash after some issue getting her going after the winter layup
It just refused to start and kept on flooding :wetting the plugs, and even a carb clean did not sort it, and it only got it running when I fitted four new plugs? And still not running quite as nice as end of last year?
Rear disc works well but the real change is the handling and general ride after the suspension work.
Front and rear ends feel confident and almost inspiring with a firmer front forks (But now fitted with internally with RaceTec gold emulators, modified damper rods and adjustable preload top caps) and a more compliant back end thanks to the YSS piggyback units and the actual ride over bumps and undulations in the road surface is fantastic. As for speed humps that are everywhere in Swindon before if you hit a speed hump you knew about it, but now the bike reacts (both front and rear) so different as if the road was almost flat and at higher speed again the ride is so much better
Yes not a cheap upgrade but for me worth the cost and oh it looks so cool including the new front KH 250 mudguard that suits the 18” wheel much better than the original cb400n one I had originally fitted that was for really for a 19” wheel, and I was never 100% happy on how it looked (as it had too much gap between the tyre and mudguard)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220425/058ca40c7349d4c4a39dd08b8dda3256.jpg)
Catch again soon and ride safe Al
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 25, 2022, 09:26:22 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 25, 2022, 09:50:28 PM
Bob on Al ;)
Post by: allankelly1 on April 25, 2022, 09:53:29 PM
Appreciate the kind comments
Best wishes Al
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Post by: K2-K6 on April 27, 2022, 05:06:48 PM
Suspension observations are interesting as obviously you've been able to set for your preferences.
Something I feel is missed in suspension, and that Dresda arm captures it well, that if you remove stiction (static friction) from the pivots then the choice of dampers etc just work better. Dave Degens (Dresda) I think is a very astute and design economic engineer in the frame elements he creates, aesthetically though, ahem :o not so well resolved. The swingarm may have been viewed as not hugely strong even in contemporary use, but it hits it's target bang on in my view.
Post by: Yetanotherbike on April 27, 2022, 05:10:19 PM