Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 18, 2021, 04:32:25 PM
Is this just later design - sealed - greased for life?
I can't see the purpose of the lock rings as they are only fitted to one side of the wheels - it seems an odd design to have one side that's effectively a press fit yet the other side has a lock ring?
Post by: Bryanj on October 18, 2021, 04:34:48 PM
As to thelock ring it hold the bearing tight against a machined shoulder then the spacer holds the bearings apart as there is no shoulder in the other side, saves on expensive machining
Post by: ka-ja on October 19, 2021, 09:56:05 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 19, 2021, 02:53:23 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on October 19, 2021, 03:03:36 PM
In addition to Bryan's observations, by locking that one bearing it positions the wheel as desirable from design (in effect a datum) with the "free" one just supporting wheel load as required. If they machined the free bearing housing to take a locking installation too, then that would require a shim pack/operation to distance the two bearings within the hub. Failure to match exactly would axially load both bearings or leave them slightly loose depending upon the spacer used.
This design effectively does all it needs without having to accommodate tolerances by shimmery :)
Post by: Sesman on October 19, 2021, 03:05:42 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 19, 2021, 03:07:44 PM
"I can't see the purpose of the lock rings as they are only fitted to one side of the wheels - it seems an odd design to have one side that's effectively a press fit yet the other side has a lock ring?"
In addition to Bryan's observations, by locking that one bearing it positions the wheel as desirable from design (in effect a datum) with the "free" one just supporting wheel load as required. If they machined the free bearing housing to take a locking installation too, then that would require a shim pack/operation to distance the two bearings within the hub. Failure to match exactly would axially load both bearings or leave them slightly loose depending upon the spacer used.
This design effectively does all it needs without having to accommodate tolerances by shimmery :)
I think I have got my head round that concept - fix one on both side as the point where the drive load is from the sprocket - the other end just a normal press fit - spacers stop any end float load issues - axle spacers do the rest.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 19, 2021, 04:25:24 PM
Never had a problem getting wheel bearings in cold.
Ted, got the dishes, not been well lately but will try and get on them today if possible.
Absolutely no rush at my end Ken so don't go and overdo it on my account.
I've done nowt on my bike today my one job was to remove the airing cupboard door (3rd Time)) then trim another couple of mm off the bottom to clear the carpet. It's been catching ever since we moved back into our house after the fire rebuild in 2018. It took me about five trips up & down the stairs with tools less than 2 minutes with the electric plane - then an hour to hoover up everywhere - then another five trips up & down the stairs to put my tools away. Now I'm done in - after all my efforts the dam carpet still catches a little.
When the door Inspector comes home from work I know what's coming - "it still catches a bit but it will do" that's code for try again Ted.lol
To cap it all Wendys PC went Blue screen yesterday after a windows 10 update - I spent over an hour last night trying to sort it as the auto repair doesn't - it will not go into Command Prompt as it says there is no administrator on the system. I gave up this morning and dropped it off to get it fixed.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 22, 2021, 01:13:12 PM
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51618607335_77447a548d.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mDmRAx)rear wheel bearing fitted (https://flic.kr/p/2mDmRAx) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 22, 2021, 09:42:57 PM
Post by: TrickyMicky on October 23, 2021, 12:10:50 AM
Post by: ST1100 on October 23, 2021, 06:49:09 AM
As to thelock ring it hold the bearing tight against a machined shoulder then the spacer holds the bearings apart as there is no shoulder in the other side, saves on expensive machiningSo should one install the side wit the lock-ring first, and then gently drive the other bearing in till it's inner race barely touches the spacer tube?
(ball bearings don't like lateral load, so you see to not "squeeze" the spacer tube in there to avoid premature failure...)
Post by: Bryanj on October 23, 2021, 08:02:35 AM
Post by: Sesman on October 23, 2021, 08:36:23 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 23, 2021, 09:38:11 AM
The guy on U-Tube fits the small one first so that's why I am doing it that way. The spacers seem to determine the distance between the Bearings - then there are the spacers on the axle - tbh it's all a bit Greek to me trying to understand the logic.As to thelock ring it hold the bearing tight against a machined shoulder then the spacer holds the bearings apart as there is no shoulder in the other side, saves on expensive machiningSo should one install the side wit the lock-ring first, and then gently drive the other bearing in till it's inner race barely touches the spacer tube?
(ball bearings don't like lateral load, so you see to not "squeeze" the spacer tube in there to avoid premature failure...)
Post by: Bryanj on October 23, 2021, 09:54:24 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 23, 2021, 12:43:13 PM
Basically what you are doing is when you tighten the axle nut you lock all the bits on the axle into a solid lump and the wheel bearings complete with wheel rotates round it
The bit that makes my head spin is you want to avoid side load on the bearings - so at one end is a slightly smaller bearing that you fit up to the shoulder then a spacer that sits in the middle of the hub then another spacer that fits into the larger bearing that is locked in by the ring. On the chains side there is a wheel spacer that fixes the position of the rear drive wheel in relation to the engine output gear. On the other side a spacer fits between the rear fork and the bearing that sits against the shoulder. As you tighten the axle nut it all clamps up the smaller bearing can't move as it's up against the shoulder - in my head that means the spacer between the bearings is what fixes/prevents any side load.
Post by: Bryanj on October 23, 2021, 03:53:36 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 25, 2021, 02:00:52 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 25, 2021, 04:45:40 PM
I like those rims Ted. Let’s see it all together. Could be a really tasteful package…..
I think the only person who will think it's a tasteful package will be me - everyone else will stare at it as if its some sort of Honda birth defect gone bling from a factory in Wuhan.
The whole will end up being much less than the sum of it's parts but it will tick the box in my demented septuagenarian brain.
Post by: Sesman on October 25, 2021, 10:02:23 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 27, 2021, 03:07:27 PM
I had previously cleaned out the threads in the hub that are good - plus applied some lubricant.
Good news is the old one will screw in about 4/5 turns easily by hand so thread is good - I've contacted DS waiting for response.
At a push I could use the old lock ring as its the very top thread that has a bit missing - anyone here had issues with them - it came in a Honda parts bag
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 27, 2021, 05:10:07 PM
They are meant to be tight Ted, otherwise they may work loose. I believe they crush slightly as they go in, which is why the old one fits easier. You really need the special tool to get it in without chewing up the notches.
Thanks I have the special tool - is there a torque setting as I haven't spotted one?
I did notice that the new lock ring has what I would describe as peaked threads whereas on the old lock ring they seemed flat somehow. I know that the manual says peen them over in four place with a punch mark but would locktite be as good or an added extra?
Post by: Bryanj on October 27, 2021, 05:39:09 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on October 27, 2021, 08:53:57 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 28, 2021, 09:28:17 AM
I still haven't found a Torque Setting for the lock rings only for the axle nut.
Post by: Bryanj on October 28, 2021, 09:40:17 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 28, 2021, 10:10:07 AM
Dont think there is one apart from BT mate, use a thread file to clean the threads in the hub
A thread file - I've not got one of those - any pointers please asside from a metric one do they come in pitch sizes?
I went to have another look at the rear wheel hub but came back inside after a few minutes it's turned cold here - I could feel my dam Angina starting to trip in so am back indoors.
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 28, 2021, 10:27:33 AM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233397431681?epid=26017006706&hash=item3657922d81:g:tFcAAOSw7gpdyBrj
Post by: K2-K6 on October 28, 2021, 11:58:15 AM
As you find too, the torque to turn it can be variable once the wheel has been used, making absolute reference unreliable.
Essentially it needs the "staking" because it's not torqued, just positional accuracy.
If you drive the bearings in fully, then assemble the wheel/spacers/brake fully into the swing arm, then torque the spindle fully the wheel should not alter rotation resistance when you do. This will give confirmation that the whole assembly is correctly installed.
Further, if this did result in seating the main bearing slightly further in, then it is this final position that the retainer needs to tighten against to give competent rear wheel datum/alignment.
Si you can then fit the retainer correctly and secure it.
Post by: K2-K6 on October 28, 2021, 12:04:22 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 28, 2021, 01:44:56 PM
As far as I understand it there's no torque setting for the lock ring as it doesn't generate tensile or compressive load in itself.
As you find too, the torque to turn it can be variable once the wheel has been used, making absolute reference unreliable.
Essentially it needs the "staking" because it's not torqued, just positional accuracy.
If you drive the bearings in fully, then assemble the wheel/spacers/brake fully into the swing arm, then torque the spindle fully the wheel should not alter rotation resistance when you do. This will give confirmation that the whole assembly is correctly installed.
Further, if this did result in seating the main bearing slightly further in, then it is this final position that the retainer needs to tighten against to give competent rear wheel datum/alignment.
Si you can then fit the retainer correctly and secure it.
I follow your logic there I think that's a darn good idea. Ted
Post by: K2-K6 on October 28, 2021, 01:52:34 PM
Obviously shoul be so.
Post by: Bryanj on October 28, 2021, 04:03:19 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 28, 2021, 05:44:52 PM
Thread files tend to have all the different pitches on them and are very easy to use and usefull for damaged welded on studs
Okay what size thread file will I need all I know about the rear lock ring is it's about 54.7mm o/d with a 1.5 mm pitch?
The file in the link from Laverdaroo seems to show 8 thread sizes on a 4 sided tool - ah it's double ended.
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 28, 2021, 06:07:14 PM
Post by: taysidedragon on October 28, 2021, 06:53:49 PM
Thread files tend to have all the different pitches on them and are very easy to use and usefull for damaged welded on studs
Okay what size thread file will I need all I know about the rear lock ring is it's about 54.7mm o/d with a 1.5 mm pitch?
The file in the link from Laverdaroo seems to show 8 thread sizes on a 4 sided tool - ah it's double ended.
I think you answered your own question. 😉
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 28, 2021, 07:17:07 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 29, 2021, 04:16:19 PM
I thought it might be but didn't want to get hammered hence the offer ;) ;D
Some days my brain runs very slow like my 6 year old laptop - I've 73 years of junk files to cope with.lol
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 29, 2021, 05:06:52 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 29, 2021, 09:56:38 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 30, 2021, 12:48:56 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 30, 2021, 10:00:18 AM
;D ;D You gotta love SPAM, best barbel bait there is 8) :o
I've not caught a Barbel since I was a schoolboy - I've been a couple of times fishing just for Barbel on the river Derwent at the weir in Darley Abbey I was thwarted as the river was somewhat in flood. I chatted to a fellow angler who came up regularly from London to fish the spot using boilies- he did say that when the water levels were high he would blank.
It's on my bucket list to catch a Barbel.
Post by: Sesman on October 30, 2021, 10:11:03 AM
Take a holiday in Yorkshire and fish the Derwent at Kirkham Abbey (10miles North of York on the A64) about 400 yards downstream on the bends. July/August is best in the early morning or late evening. Use luncheon meat or mussels on a hair rig.
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 30, 2021, 05:07:30 PM
If you go to Newby Hall up in Yorkshire the section below the bottom weir is a banger of a spot and day tickets on the bank!! I'm not turning this into a 'Where to fish for Barbel' but if anybody wants directions or maps, drop me a pm, I've got loads from all over the county. One of my favourite quarries apart from Tench.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 01, 2021, 11:19:33 AM
Progress is going well despite an avoidable setback on Wednesday when I was pushing my ramp out of the garage to turn the bike round - I pulled on the front wheel - the bike came of the centre stand in slow motion landing on the closed centre stand. . I had some old carpet on the bike ramp plus some blocks of wood so luckly no damage caused but it could have been nasty.
Bike was far to heavy to lift it back onto the stand myself so on Saturday my Nephew & his mate lifted the back end up as I put the stand down & Wendy pulled the carpet out!
I will ensure the rear wheel is not absent without adequate safety blocks in place - yesterday I cut some nice chunks of 4" x 3" to the right size - my car axle stands are too big to be of much use.
Post by: TrickyMicky on November 01, 2021, 12:08:14 PM
Post by: smoothoperator on November 01, 2021, 12:28:56 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 01, 2021, 12:37:46 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 01, 2021, 12:41:36 PM
Is the front wheel not held in a clamp on your ramp Ted? Having said which, I will put my hand up to performing something similar in my youth, bike on centre stand (on tarmac surface), mate leaning on rear carrier so I could remove front wheel, wheel out and let bike gently pivot forwards to rest on fork legs. NAH!!! Rolls off stand and hits the deck. Fortunately only cosmetic damage. Nowadays always keep a good stock of wooden blocks and ratchet straps. Stay safe.Mike.Yes but clamp should have been tighter - me pulling on the wheel instead of the clamp unit was the primary cause. The straps I have used were starting to get out of position as I worked on the bike.
Post by: ST1100 on November 01, 2021, 12:54:09 PM
I still haven't found a Torque Setting for the lock rings only for the axle nut.(my) Manual(s) only states [use thread lock cement when installing the bearing retainer], no torque setting though...
Post by: K2-K6 on November 01, 2021, 01:00:03 PM
Is the front wheel not held in a clamp on your ramp Ted? Having said which, I will put my hand up to performing something similar in my youth, bike on centre stand (on tarmac surface), mate leaning on rear carrier so I could remove front wheel, wheel out and let bike gently pivot forwards to rest on fork legs. NAH!!! Rolls off stand and hits the deck. Fortunately only cosmetic damage. Nowadays always keep a good stock of wooden blocks and ratchet straps. Stay safe.Mike.Yes but clamp should have been tighter - me pulling on the wheel instead of the clamp unit was the primary cause. The straps I have used were starting to get out of position as I worked on the bike.
Put a ratchet strap on the centre stand with the other end on the lower fork triple crown, tighten reasonably and the stand will never fold up. ;D
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 01, 2021, 02:12:51 PM
Would it not be better to fit a thicker washer behind the circlip so it does not affect the fit of the bolt lugs in the drive rubbers?Hi Ted. I'm looking at my rear wheel at the moment and noticed a fair bit of play between the sprocket and the hub. I attach a photo as it makes it clear where the play is coming from. Looks like wear on the washer and large circlip. Wondered if yours might be similar. Do people shim these washers?
Put some washers behind the sprocket so it sits further out?
Post by: smoothoperator on November 01, 2021, 03:01:59 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 01, 2021, 05:10:54 PM
If you could find a washer that big Ted.
Shouldn't affect the positioning or fitting or the lugs into the rubbers, fit the washers between the sprocket and the lug, that won't affect anything except to move the sprocket a little further out.
Could this movement be deliberate to ensure the drive spr
ockets are in line when the chain is fitted or am I thinking engineering nonesense?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 01, 2021, 05:19:31 PM
What's yours like Ted, if yours and others are the same then it's mist likely deliberate but to me it shouldn't be there. Any movement of the sprocket will eventually wear parts that aren't supposed to be worn IMO.
My original rear wheel has some play like Steve's - I haven't fitted the drive rubbers yet on my new rims so not sure what they will be like yet.
Post by: Laverdaroo on November 01, 2021, 05:30:56 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on November 01, 2021, 05:39:00 PM
While I’m here, I wonder??
……..I have a similar GAP but only a rizzla’s worth bit as said, o do have the new drive rubbers in
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Laverdaroo on November 01, 2021, 05:40:15 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 08, 2021, 05:09:44 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on November 08, 2021, 05:41:02 PM