Post by: davidcumbria on April 17, 2023, 11:57:04 AM
I'm chewing over what to do with the cases but present thinking is paint strip and repaint with perhaps a vapour blast of the barrels and head only.
have managed to buy a later gen rocker cover with secured rocker shafts. The oil restrictors were blocked with sealant from the rebuild and there was barely any oil making it up to the top end. Also managed to get some headlamp ears from USA that will be suitable for rechroming unlike my dented ones.
I have stripped the frame completely which was a lovely easy job due to the recent rebuild. Going to send off the frame/ swingarm for powder coating gloss black and need advice re the centrestand, side stand, footpeg mounts and steering yokes. Should these be satin black powder coated to look original or the same gloss black as the frame ?
Thanks in advance for all helpful advice that is typical on this site. I will try to use search and link in previous advice for others viewing this thread when useful.
all the best
David
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 17, 2023, 12:39:44 PM
My priority would be checking crankshaft, crank bearings, primary drive system, gearbox bearings, oil pump, cam chain tensioner & pistons.
The cost of ensuring the engine unit is A1 would then impact on choices such as new paintwork & exhaust & casing cosmetics.
I view a project overspend as normal depreciation - hopefully a one off cost in year 2 for accounting purposes. Alternatively just forget the over run. 8) 8) 8)
I'm stating the obvious, like you I am conscious that fettling costs can easily out run end value. Money spent on the heart of the bike is money well spent. Do it once do it right.
Post by: davidcumbria on April 17, 2023, 01:34:43 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on April 17, 2023, 02:58:57 PM
Post by: Oddjob on April 17, 2023, 04:10:29 PM
Post by: Bryanj on April 18, 2023, 01:12:10 AM
Other stuff ask on here, may be worth putting up pics of shells before condeming them!
Post by: davidcumbria on April 18, 2023, 06:32:13 AM
Shells have already been condemned as toast on on here so I’m going to have to grin and bear it.
https://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,29088.msg277269.html#msg277269
Good tip re Kawasaki primary chain Bryan
https://www.motorcyclespareparts.eu/en/kawasaki-parts/920571011?currency=GBP&withvat=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxZvMhMah7gIVyrTtCh39NQiJEAQYASABEgIWtPD_BwE
Post by: Laverda Dave on April 18, 2023, 09:01:58 AM
Make sure you ask them to powder coat the frame on the same day as it has been blasted otherwise the frame will have a coating of rust between blasting and powder coating and this can result in the powder coat debonding over time. Likely to be more expensive but worth it
Post by: davidcumbria on April 28, 2023, 08:20:52 AM
Post by: Bryanj on April 28, 2023, 08:51:12 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on April 28, 2023, 09:10:16 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 28, 2023, 11:18:50 AM
Thinking ahead to the rebuild what’s the deal with cam chain ? I plan to to put crankcases together with engine upside down to avoid the difficulties with selector forks and bearing pins. Will the cam chain stay on the crankshaft teeth during the rebuild or do I have to find a way to keep it tensioned, including refitting the barrels, so it doesn’t drop off the crank and get all messed up?
When I was rebuilding my 400 I made a simple wooden support made from offcuts to hold the top case upside down. The first picture was taken before I added an extra shaft of wood. The case was supported either side od the face where the studs fit - I used a short length of left over plastic drain pipe to act like the camshaft as it rested on the head studs.
Its lighter/easier to fit the engine into the frame before you fit the block & head.
.
.
.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52445870420_063e2a2a67_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nUsN6b)casings before stripping paint (https://flic.kr/p/2nUsN6b) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52398322212_bb743de107_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nQg6Eu)Top casing bolts (https://flic.kr/p/2nQg6Eu) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52853056064_3f33573532_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2owrJcj)51215030361_81a76ec82e_o (https://flic.kr/p/2owrJcj) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52852870781_befb90441d_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2owqM7M)51387518187_e6193f7eeb_o (https://flic.kr/p/2owqM7M) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52853266130_1c020f27df_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2owsND9)51388278441_de81522bcd_o (https://flic.kr/p/2owsND9) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
Post by: Oddjob on April 28, 2023, 02:41:15 PM
Teds engine BTW never ran on number 1 cylinder very well, that's because he wrote the number 1 backwards in relation to the others, rookie mistake. ;D ;D ;D
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 28, 2023, 04:02:31 PM
Post by: Johnny4428 on April 28, 2023, 05:28:36 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on April 28, 2023, 09:04:59 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 28, 2023, 09:35:27 PM
Prior to painting I washed with thinners. Gasket surfaces to remove Hondabond using mainly Acetone.
Post by: davidcumbria on April 29, 2023, 09:28:14 PM
Post by: Oddjob on April 29, 2023, 10:06:15 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 29, 2023, 10:52:35 PM
Worth trying Steve there are some shown in the photo F 140 worth an e-mail his prices are sensible.
They look the same as a 500/550 at a glance - looking at them might not be impossible to make some out of some thin PVC type sheeting or part of a plastic bottle etc?
I thought they were just to hold stuff in place during assembly - if it's to keep dust out would some sort of plastic washer do the trick?
Post by: davidcumbria on April 30, 2023, 07:39:46 AM
Post by: Oddjob on April 30, 2023, 03:44:53 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on May 15, 2023, 10:37:23 PM
Ps had a minor success today pressing the lower shock bushes out of the swing arm. Rusted in for 50 years but came out nicely using two sockets in a vice. Pretty sure the heating with my mapp torch helped a lot. Others have had to hacksaw them out so I’m feeling a bit smug. Replacements are available for reasonable cost so new rubber will be good especially after the heating. Off to pick up the frame from the powder coaters tomorrow and check out ceramic coating of the engine with a local supplier.
Post by: Oddjob on May 15, 2023, 11:28:08 PM
If so then the American fella is just being a prat, really, some people just overthink things, never needed to heat the engine casing up to knock that bearing into place. fit the bearing on the oil pump side but remove the oil pump, as you slide the shaft through you can see which way the shaft needs to be moved in order for it to slide into place. With a new primary chain and more importantly new primary cush rubbers you'll find the shaft doesn't really want to go in as there isn't enough slack in the chain to allow it, that's when you need to lever the shaft backwards in order for it to line up. Just protect the crankcase as you lever against it, doesn't need a huge amount of force TBH.
Shock rubbers, heat is ok but if the paints good it's not ideal. Use a drill and just drill out the rubber surround, that lets the middle drop out, then a hacksaw blade just cutting through the shell of the damping rubber is enough for it to collapse and fall out. Saem process kind of with the swinging arm bearings, especially if they are the steel kind which the 550 aren't.
Post by: davidcumbria on May 16, 2023, 07:35:40 AM
I’m having the swing arm the powder coated ( mainly why I wanted the bushes out ) so no worries about the heat on paint.
Got to decide whether to get bottom cases vapour blasted today. Only reason is to prepare the small proportion of visible outer surfaces for paint/ ceramic prep. Have heard that media gets embedded then releases when engine hot. Doesn’t seem like a worthwhile risk , though others have had it done without problems. 2 months I’ve been vacillating !
Post by: Laverdaroo on May 16, 2023, 11:36:41 AM
Can’t spell cerecote
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 16, 2023, 12:12:08 PM
Post by: Oddjob on May 16, 2023, 12:33:12 PM
Embedded???? How hard to you think the media is? it's a lot softer than the alloy and they'd be out of business soon if that was to happen as engines would be failing all over the place, you may be confusing that with being trapped, if you leave a pocket of grease somewhere by not cleaning the case properly then the media will just stick into that and heat would release it later, so long as the cases are very clean (and by that I mean check every oil gallery) you'll be fine. A good clean after, just to make sure, using bottle brushes etc and a visual check down oil galleries and that should do.
Post by: Matt_Harrington on May 17, 2023, 09:10:45 AM
Got to decide whether to get bottom cases vapour blasted today. Only reason is to prepare the small proportion of visible outer surfaces for paint/ ceramic prep. Have heard that media gets embedded then releases when engine hot. Doesn’t seem like a worthwhile risk , though others have had it done without problems. 2 months I’ve been vacillating !
If you don't want the hassle of cleaning the cases yourself, you could always have them soda blasted. That process will allow the cases to be washed and thus dissolve the soda. Can't remember but I have a feeling that Roo had that done. I am about to have a pair of cases done that way and then Cerakote'd
Post by: Matt_Harrington on May 17, 2023, 11:13:04 AM
Post by: RGP750 on May 17, 2023, 05:26:01 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on May 19, 2023, 06:58:25 PM
So a real milestone - after months of disassembly I made the first step on the road to reassembly. Absolutely no rush - for me the pleasure is in the garage hours I get submerged in this project. I put the centre stand on the powder coated ( 80 % gloss ) frame. It went quite straightforwardly but the lugs on one of the clamps needed a bit of mallet work to get it accurately lined up with its partner. Good to do this before fitting swingarm as it makes getting the spring on much easier. So pleasant to polish up the plate, spring and nuts and bolts so it all looks fresh. The CB550 complete photographic reassembly on sohc.net was helpful but he missed the battery overflow drain guide which I think had also been put on incorrectly when I photographed my bike during disassembly. The parts list on this site I think shows it correctly. [attachimg=1]
Post by: andy120t on May 19, 2023, 07:20:35 PM
Post by: Bryanj on May 19, 2023, 09:55:20 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on May 19, 2023, 10:21:19 PM
Not too sure on the aussie heritageAgree Bryan ;D it was horrible trying to use my right way up photos and work upside down. Not doing that again.
Post by: Matt_Harrington on May 20, 2023, 09:19:23 AM
Not too sure on the aussie heritage;D ;D ;D
Post by: Matt_Harrington on May 20, 2023, 09:20:27 AM
Post by: davidcumbria on May 24, 2023, 01:32:45 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 24, 2023, 01:50:48 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on May 26, 2023, 07:28:35 PM
Now I’m confused. With the front wheel off the bike and spindle in place and spindle nut tightened up to the shoulder ( small spacer in end of bearing, speedo drive in place ) the spindle can slide in and out about half an inch. Seems to me when the fork ends are attached clamping the spindle nut and spindle end the wheel can then move axially along the spindle and bounce between the disc pads. Is this how it’s designed - never seen a bike front wheel like this? It’s a like a spacer is missing but it came off like this and seems correct on the parts list. Thanks as always for the advice.
Post by: Oddjob on May 26, 2023, 08:12:45 PM
Post by: robvangulik on May 26, 2023, 08:30:53 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on May 26, 2023, 08:50:59 PM
Did you put the nut on with the sixsided end pointing IN?
Ahaaaa! That’s sorted it. Many thanks. What a very counterintuitive arrangement with the nut on the inside but once you’ve made a twit of yourself forgetting how it came apart it won’t happen again 👍😂
Post by: robvangulik on May 26, 2023, 08:53:29 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on May 28, 2023, 06:55:34 PM
Starter gear stripped without problems using impact driver and new damper rubbers fitted. There was some slop with old dampers now it’s all solid so a job worth doing.
Got the dampers and 18 new shells from impex in Japan which kept the costs of shells down to significantly less than more local options. The big ends were all replaced with the available green or brown and my measuring must have been ok because they all came in well within spec when Plastigauged at 30 - 40 micron. So pleasing to see the immaculate smooth new shells in there when their predecessors were like a ploughed field. First time I have used Plastigauge and it gave me consistent results so I now have full confidence in the reshelled big ends.
Post by: Bryanj on May 28, 2023, 07:58:03 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 28, 2023, 08:06:39 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 28, 2023, 08:10:36 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on May 28, 2023, 09:35:58 PM
https://en.impex-jp.com/catalogs/moto/honda-other/cb550/cb550k-a-1976-usa-6724/camshaft-crankshaft-455707.html
Post by: davidcumbria on June 16, 2023, 08:29:01 AM
Post by: Johnny4428 on June 16, 2023, 10:50:36 AM
Post by: paul G on June 16, 2023, 12:12:24 PM
Post by: Oddjob on June 16, 2023, 02:15:30 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on June 16, 2023, 05:13:24 PM
Not so sure about the bolt seating - maybe its all a reflection of some sort?
Post by: davidcumbria on June 16, 2023, 05:33:00 PM
I thought about a second hand one but those for sale had worse fins than mine. Easy to swap out later on if I’m not happy in the end.
Post by: davidcumbria on June 16, 2023, 06:58:31 PM
[attachimg=1]
Post by: davidcumbria on June 21, 2023, 12:41:04 PM
end circlip but it was satisfying to solve this problem albeit after a lot of frustration.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
Post by: Oddjob on June 21, 2023, 03:23:06 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on June 21, 2023, 03:51:31 PM
It fits to the left inside the gear then the small spring - well fiddly you just need three sets of fingers or an assistant lobster.
https://flic.kr/p/2oBoXwj
Post by: davidcumbria on June 21, 2023, 05:58:59 PM
That squared off washer is easy to miss as it sits right inside the first gear. I think there was wear on the pawl guide / ramp surface. It’s not the spring that moves the ratchet backwards Ken it’s it’s the contact with the guide which is like a ramp as the shaft rotates. The large spring keeps the pawl in contact with the ramp., and is not as powerful as the smaller spring which goes on second.
( Ted I think that order is wrong in your photo - the squared off washer goes before the spring not after it - see parts list )
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on June 21, 2023, 10:21:40 PM
This is how mine now looks with the kick start spring in position.
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52910385863_46e754f137_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oBvym8)done at last (https://flic.kr/p/2oBvym8) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
Post by: Oddjob on June 21, 2023, 10:35:02 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on June 22, 2023, 11:33:44 AM
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,29348.msg281542.html#msg281542
Post by: Oddjob on June 22, 2023, 02:58:05 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on June 22, 2023, 08:23:45 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on June 22, 2023, 09:03:54 PM
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550-k1-four-1975-usa_model466/washer-lock-6-mm_90433283000/
Post by: Oddjob on June 23, 2023, 12:08:21 AM
Just something nagging me about that big spring, doesn't look right for some reason. Seems to be stretched out. So long as it works ok I suppose it doesn't matter.
Like the idea of the ziplock on the shaft to keep the washer in place, good idea.
Post by: davidcumbria on June 23, 2023, 07:26:19 AM
In other news I ve had to buy a replacement Mainshaft. There was a ridge on a gear tooth that caused the gears to stick when rotating freely in neutral and I got the complete assy for £50 off eBay. Not sure if this was caused when the selector fork dropped out or by the gears being slightly misaligned when the cases were closed without locating the bearing pin. Either way it wasn’t mr Hondas fault but the result of poor engine building.
The amount of fine metal particles inside was horrendous. At one point the cam chain tensioner had dropped off and was found in the sump by the previous top end only rebuilder. He told me bottom end was ok but shells were completely shot and bottom end gloopy bits in the casing plugs and end of main oil passageway were like grinding paste. Then he misfitted the keeper plate for the selector fork shaft so the gearbox jammed completely after my first ride. It’s a story of real misadventure but nothing terminal and satisfying to get sorted with the help on here.
Post by: Oddjob on June 24, 2023, 04:02:05 AM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133766546740?hash=item1f251b8534:g:uvUAAOSwYw9j9nWJ&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwMMHg%2FBzP172w%2BkSDpT%2FJxAgdT2FrXuG%2BDaJSFG0BPI6pReERbu7xYXHnZA0a3xK1Te5bvFTTbBJrkbmR%2BXD70OHwRF2ExEU9ReG72P31EC6tPB%2FQFy05GWssqeojMX9f%2F0M0UuzVxzrRgm55IGZx343k8N3ZRW5PB2KGRLr4UFt6%2BWVEHe0l%2FFuzRe%2FlqMKfQ801Q6sCabBZnjDilJx9L9%2FUj%2Bc8RfT%2BxG4uBGKjZhn7Vocxy6B7qw1ri6UiIcLsw%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_TSr7WdYg
Thought you'd like a laugh.
Post by: davidcumbria on June 24, 2023, 07:41:07 AM
Post by: davidcumbria on June 24, 2023, 07:48:03 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on June 30, 2023, 01:35:56 PM
Does this look ok? The output shaft oil pump bearing hole is vertical ( pin located) though the photo makes it look otherwise.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Oddjob on June 30, 2023, 02:32:54 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on June 30, 2023, 02:47:22 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on June 30, 2023, 03:04:38 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on June 30, 2023, 05:06:57 PM
Post by: Oddjob on June 30, 2023, 05:48:06 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on June 30, 2023, 05:57:42 PM
Going back to our first discussion on this subject as you said Ken absolutely not necessary to heat the rh bearing surround as in the high octane Matthew bochnack video I’ve bought. All this does is make more likely you’ll burn your hand and find the job more difficult.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on June 30, 2023, 06:20:07 PM
Next step for me is to clean the mating surfaces again with Meths then get the Hondabond out. I too have new chain, primary drive rubbers and bearings.
TBH I will be pleased when I am at your stage with the primary drive shaft in place - you must be chuffed with how it has gone.👍👍👍
Post by: davidcumbria on June 30, 2023, 06:36:21 PM
Check and recheck bearing pins are properly located. One of mine got displaced after running through the gears before bolting cases together.
Put the crankshaft seals on before fitting to upper case
Use a fine paintbrush to lightly apply the Hondabond squeezed into cap. Less risk of overdoing the area round the bearing caps.
Don’t forget the casing dowels
Try wiggling and pushing the end of the primary shaft into the rh bearing. As soon as it catches light persuasion with a rubber mallet did the trick for me
Make sure surface is soft and contact surfaces of engine are protected. They’re a lot of turning this heavy lump over.
Good luck Ted.
Post by: davidcumbria on June 30, 2023, 06:41:11 PM
Post by: Bryanj on June 30, 2023, 07:00:16 PM
The 550 is a slightly different casting where the main oil gallery is compared to 500, on 500 the chain can cut a big groove into the ally and, reportedly, has even worn through!
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on June 30, 2023, 07:15:55 PM
NJ gave me this tip - I had plenty of trials with my Groundhog phase.
Post by: davidcumbria on July 15, 2023, 08:50:39 AM
A steering head bearing seems to have dematerialised between counting them out and counting them in soo had to order one from DS. Bet they were cheering when they got that order! Good tip about tightening the bearing by turning the steering head with spanner held in place so the bearings are rolling. Had to remove some of the powder coating so the top yoke would fit properly.
Had three progressively better attempts to fit the fork seals. First attempt rubbish when my too small socket damaged one of the seal springs trying to straighten tilted bearing. Majorly pissed off as I had done this job ok loads of times before. Dug out some 1.5 inch abs pipe and with a bit it grinding it made a perfect sized drift which worked ok on second attempt but more hammering than I would have preferred to get seal perfectly lined up below circlip groove. At least one was done and I could stop fuming. Final fork I heated the top with my heat gun and then was able to have a couple of attempts to get the seal started straight and fairly well in just with fingers. Couple of taps with old bearing on top and it was in straight in a jiffy. Old seal is great drift because it’s easy to see the alignment between the top of the fork and the top of the old seal a few mm above it, not so easy with a drift sticking up a couple of inches. It’s all about getting the final push started with the seal square and the heating and use of old seal as drift really helped with this.
Bought some lovely new fork tops and protected the chrome with tape. With the stanchion in a vice my first efforts to push down the spring and engage the threads were frustrating. Even engaged her indoors to stand on my work mate where the vice us mounted. Was running out of strength and really worried that pushing and turning so hard was going to risk thread damage. Finally on about the the tenth attempt it worked and I could leave the garage happy but determined to find an easier way for the other one.
Searching found a post by K2 where he mentioned turning backwards first to find the thread lead in point. I tried this but couldn’t detect it. Problem is you have very little capacity to turn much and maintain gorilla pressure on the socket T bar. Solution was to take out spring and fit the cap then mark with permanent marker stanchion and fork top so you can see where to position so both lead ins engage. Obviously would have been better to do this before filling with oil. Anyhow it worked and got the blessed thing started on next attempt. A triumph of thinking over brute force. I don’t do enough of the former and haven’t got much of the latter!
On to the swingarm which I’m now having to have re powder coated since my freebie foreigner job at local factory was obviously rushed and the finish is rubbish. Pay peanuts get monkeys !
Post by: davidcumbria on September 12, 2023, 09:16:54 PM
Barrrell Bores checked out fine with bore micrometer with just 0.05mm of barrelling vs .12 mm max spec. So I was surprised that the ‘new’ rings I thought had been put in were out of spec on ring gap in the cylinder. Got a good deal on piston kit from imd pistons and now have shiny new pistons and ring gap bang within spec. Piston clips stayed out of the crankcase !
Do I need to hone the bores to bed in the new rings ? Would a rub down with emery paoer suffice ? What grade ?
On the same theme the ‘ new’ cam chain tensioner blade didn’t stand up to close examination and had fatigue cracks in it that ran to about 3/4 of the blade thickness. See photo. CMSNl have a new aftermarket replacement for £33 , third the price of oem.
So barrels on next when the blade arrives with some great tips already logged from Teds thread on how to fit the tensioners.( protective cover taken off engine for photo)
Post by: davidcumbria on September 16, 2023, 07:55:00 AM
Found my old lapping stick purchased in 1976 to do my mums mini at the bottom of a tool chest. That was satisfying. It struggled a bit too with suction on the small diameter exhaust valves ( I’ll forgive it after50 years ) but Velcro did the trick. Good to know there’s been some progress in ideas over 50 years.
Another new bit of kit used were the polishing discs/ brushes recommended by Ken which did a great job removing the baked on combustion residues.
QUESTION - is there a correct orientation for the valve springs on a 550 in terms of the windings like there is apparently on a 400 ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 16, 2023, 09:21:00 AM
Post by: davidcumbria on September 16, 2023, 02:41:48 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on September 28, 2023, 08:07:07 AM
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=122084.0
Although I had used blue loctite it was imho still too easy to loosen them so I was gratified that this whole reversal hadn’t been a waste of time. New screws on order, decent staking tool obtained and red loctite at the ready. No need for these screws ever to come out again and ear worm dealt with !
Post by: davidcumbria on October 06, 2023, 09:30:56 AM
I found refitting the starter clutch very tricky with engine out and sump cover off upside down on the bench. Could not imagine how difficult this would be trying to work under the bike with engine in frame. Very hard to retrieve the small starter gear and correctly align it so the pin will go back in when access is so limited by the starter clutch and Mainshaft gears. Did manage eventually with help from missus as three hands needed. ( lift / wiggle starter clutch , retrieve/ manoeuvre starter gear with long screwdriver, insert pin. ) key breakthrough was using a screwdriver in place of the pin to hold/ manoeuvre the starter gear into alignment before removing carefully and trying the pin. 2 hours of frustration but got there in the end.
Post by: davidcumbria on October 06, 2023, 07:02:33 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 06, 2023, 07:19:34 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on October 06, 2023, 07:39:03 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 06, 2023, 07:40:53 PM
Had a look at parts diagram and it looks like the larger diameter end fits into the engine case in which case you are spot on Julie - they are upside down. Will try again tommorow - so glad I checked before trying to fit cylinder head.Great, that's an easy fix the.
Post by: davidcumbria on October 06, 2023, 07:48:19 PM
Post by: Oddjob on October 06, 2023, 07:56:05 PM
Missing the dowel in the clutch case opening near the primary shaft gear. Needs to be there for the gasket to locate properly. Should be 2 of them in total.
Post by: davidcumbria on October 06, 2023, 10:30:29 PM
Post by: Oddjob on October 07, 2023, 03:35:24 AM
Post by: davidcumbria on October 07, 2023, 02:52:52 PM
When I lifted the barrels slightly and replaced the restrictors in the corrrct orientation to my dismay the barrels still wouldn’t seat on them. Barrels off revealed the in correct fitmen had scuffed up the drillings in the barrel restricting the width. .
Got barrels on my pillar drill and removed the galling, cleaned up meticulously, and finally the barrels slid down into place correctly.
The blockage of the restrictors by sealant was also responsible for the dry top end when I first ran the bike. All in all I feel these little things are having a vendetta with me. At least having had the barrels on and off about 4 times. I’m getting good at it !
Post by: davidcumbria on November 01, 2023, 08:12:02 AM
I have bought a stud removal kit with left hand drills and extractors. Can’t heat the area as much as I would like due to new paint. Anyone had experience of dealing with same issue ? Hopefully easier than a sheared stud since it shouldn’t be bottomed out in the thread hole.
Post by: Laverdaroo on November 01, 2023, 02:11:51 PM
Good luck
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Oddjob on November 01, 2023, 05:16:07 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on November 02, 2023, 07:54:03 PM
This is what I used.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B076716GZH?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1
The drills are not left handed but worked well at low speed / higher pressure to cut out the Honda bolt. I also used a centre drill to aid starting off centred and lots of rocol lubricant. No significant torque needed on the extractor I think drilling out most if the thickness of the bolt had weakened its grip.
Thanks for the positive comments. Happy days.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 02, 2023, 08:18:11 PM
Post by: Johnny4428 on November 02, 2023, 09:08:35 PM
Post by: taysidedragon on November 03, 2023, 01:08:32 AM
Post by: davidcumbria on November 04, 2023, 07:10:53 AM
With no looms in place I wired a test bulb in series with oil pressure switch to positive battery and used a starter lead between earth battery and the engine casing illuminating the bulb. Finally connected the other starter lead between the starter motor cable ready to touch other end on battery positive. No spark plugs or valve cover in place so minimum resistance, maximum pump speed and easy to see any oil delivery into the bath at the ends of the cam shaft.
First spin was for about 3 or 4 seconds light on, no pressure and no oil at the top. As expected but hopefully not too much more of this. 😐 Second spin light went out and oil flooded the baths to their limit so I had to stop after a couple of seconds - a really strong flow so much better than before stripping. As Alan Millyard would say in one of his brilliant YouTube videos ‘ I was really pleased about that’ 😀👍
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 04, 2023, 12:30:53 PM
Post by: Oddjob on November 04, 2023, 02:15:41 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on November 22, 2023, 10:49:04 PM
Wanted to try the clear tube level check while carbs still separate and was glad I did because first carb was dripping from the overflow.
using lungs to blow down the fuel inlet suggested float valve working ok.sure enough as well as dripping the overflow pipe revealed a nice jet of air into the removed and fuel filled chamber when gently back flushed with air. Classic split overflow tube which I soldered up per the you tube videos. All ok now and satisfying to solve the problem without resorting to the cheque book or pleading for spares. Other carbs ok and levels look consistent - close but not too close to top of bowl.
Should have the carbs back on the bike this weekend. I do wonder if blasting air through the overflow while cleaning up the carbs should maybe have an health warning to take it easy on these vulnerable components.will never know if that’s what did it. Any how - Onwards….
Post by: davidcumbria on November 24, 2023, 11:14:08 PM
Post by: Oddjob on November 25, 2023, 02:23:46 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 25, 2023, 02:53:26 AM
Surprisingly the shaft seemed pretty well supported with one and a half bearings. Sourced a good one from Ken, as a one off repair it would have been too expensive to have a new part specially made.
I think Florence might still have a spare worth a PM.
Post by: Oddjob on November 25, 2023, 03:07:03 AM
The bracket is now 877 euros 😧😧
Post by: davidcumbria on November 25, 2023, 08:20:37 AM
Replacing the axial securing pin with grub screw that can’t nip the shaft leaves it loose in the threads. Do you use loctite or I was thinking of maybe some epoxy to hold it in place ? I wonder if threadlock works when the thread is not pushed tight by coming against a hard stop.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 25, 2023, 08:51:31 AM
Post by: Oddjob on November 25, 2023, 12:33:59 PM
Get something like these Dave to secure the rod, I put them in a drill and rest a file on the point as it spins to reduce the tip down until it fits inside the groove in the rod, I'd go with 10mm, maybe M5. Depends on the size of the hole you end up with after drilling out the locking pin
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313583380550?var=612402648480&hash=item490306a846:g:XvIAAOSwVORg1sj0&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8DGZkN3dMdU6oZ1%2FXUF2wYy4uDn8uTx5w%2FccUdFWpkkwYU3zk97NDpXUpjcjUhFYieAaa%2BoQ6Fa%2FWGYDQg0o253pEmtkSqE3%2FNc3mKmmjYKomemf%2FbRfJPdB%2B74BOMv9bzbXkEbA2sQygCsbvJcC04VGpAGamK0UW%2BpdI8nsU8HjL0Dxa%2BxYda9oLaCJYh61bru%2B3vkqR4zVDeq72nociFNF0kK%2B%2FNFu6zzoINGD4qf2gU2UQG1s25RFd%2FyNUbYNlJILctm%2FeZzvNF8zkbtfb9eXGMZn75aBbHYZQrp%2B1oPLFdh1pWNNgNPiej8rGa%2Bmlg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-SLqueAYw
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 25, 2023, 03:51:19 PM
Not my place to approve or anything Ted, just wasn't needed though IMO.
OTT v OCD. 😁😁😁
Post by: davidcumbria on November 25, 2023, 06:17:31 PM
Not my place to approve or anything Ted, just wasn't needed though IMO.Sure Ken that’s what’s I’m buying but my question is how to make sure it doesn’t unscrew itself with the motion of the shaft ?
Get something like these Dave to secure the rod, I put them in a drill and rest a file on the point as it spins to reduce the tip down until it fits inside the groove in the rod, I'd go with 10mm, maybe M5. Depends on the size of the hole you end up with after drilling out the locking pin
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313583380550?var=612402648480&hash=item490306a846:g:XvIAAOSwVORg1sj0&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8DGZkN3dMdU6oZ1%2FXUF2wYy4uDn8uTx5w%2FccUdFWpkkwYU3zk97NDpXUpjcjUhFYieAaa%2BoQ6Fa%2FWGYDQg0o253pEmtkSqE3%2FNc3mKmmjYKomemf%2FbRfJPdB%2B74BOMv9bzbXkEbA2sQygCsbvJcC04VGpAGamK0UW%2BpdI8nsU8HjL0Dxa%2BxYda9oLaCJYh61bru%2B3vkqR4zVDeq72nociFNF0kK%2B%2FNFu6zzoINGD4qf2gU2UQG1s25RFd%2FyNUbYNlJILctm%2FeZzvNF8zkbtfb9eXGMZn75aBbHYZQrp%2B1oPLFdh1pWNNgNPiej8rGa%2Bmlg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-SLqueAYw
Post by: Oddjob on November 25, 2023, 06:19:45 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on November 29, 2023, 08:45:50 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 29, 2023, 09:03:33 PM
Post by: Johnny4428 on November 29, 2023, 09:40:48 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on November 29, 2023, 10:22:19 PM
Post by: Johnny4428 on November 30, 2023, 09:35:44 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on November 30, 2023, 10:04:09 AM
Thanks . That’s how the brake rod came off. Possibly something out of adjustment with the levers. Need to look into it when I attach the pedal.
Sometimes people "set" them like that to give some elasticity to rear brake feel.
It moves away from a severe on~off feel that a straight rod can give, more of a modulated delicate touch to the initial response.
Post by: Laverda Dave on November 30, 2023, 10:39:02 AM
Post by: Johnny4428 on November 30, 2023, 03:42:02 PM
I get it Nigel! My OCD couldn’t cope with that!😂Thanks . That’s how the brake rod came off. Possibly something out of adjustment with the levers. Need to look into it when I attach the pedal.
Sometimes people "set" them like that to give some elasticity to rear brake feel.
It moves away from a severe on~off feel that a straight rod can give, more of a modulated delicate touch to the initial response.
Post by: davidcumbria on December 01, 2023, 07:56:46 AM
Post by: Johnny4428 on December 01, 2023, 12:07:27 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on December 01, 2023, 12:15:56 PM
This is the mesh 👍
Post by: Nurse Julie on December 01, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Here is the elusive air filter cover kindly supplied to me at a great price by Roo from one of his foraging trips to South Carolina scrap yards. . My bike was imported from South Caroline as a bit of a wreck without the cover so who knows if it has been reunited ! The grill as usual was rusted to bits so I've replaced with stainless sheet from ebay. Hard to shape the curved ends. None of my clippers strong enough and tin snips inaccurate. Ended up using cutting disc on my rotary tool.Nice job you've done there. I used to cut out and sell the mesh inserts on my ebay page. I had a very, very heavy duty pair of scissors to cut the mesh to the correct shape. Even then, it was a killer on the hands, I could only cut a maximum of 20 inserts at a time before my hand and fingers were screaming 😂😂😂😂
Post by: Johnny4428 on December 01, 2023, 01:22:32 PM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264395910501?var=564019280338Thanks! 👍
This is the mesh 👍
Post by: davidcumbria on December 03, 2023, 04:30:28 PM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143595737695?hash=item216ef9125f:g:ZOQAAOSw3axerz5U&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0Luy3C3OQhU4zlKnwPJLWjEOmwDTqoW1C5kHiSHqlK85R9s%2F5Q6TMEOfXlqcNbqJJsFlkOBcTa5oEcPW22JJ6Oh4Xf0YTCawB037SnUQONT%2BQ0YvPZM%2BDY7Rn6oPsak9981cLD7z8yJ85wx6iOPG0lORhvHstqWmEwobvV%2B%2Bvv6d0JcagA9GJgmhGbd1H%2B0qsNlw%2BZ6pTt4LF7itEOF%2F03jtkSbXldChu%2FrPa3UXGVpFsW8E41BOVuOAKhZmPojLBVmOt%2FDZnrf%2FuCNuQ3n%2FFIw%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6yA3IeGYw
Post by: Laverda Dave on December 04, 2023, 09:20:32 AM
Post by: davidcumbria on December 14, 2023, 07:48:01 AM
I used a bulb in series with the points with a loose battery to determine the opening point since the loom is not in place yet, as seen in Millyard video. Problem was my test bub was too high a wattage and I ended up partially melting the insulation washer at the contact feed. Good job I had bought some nos FEW brand breakers on eBay. These are Japanese made and seem well constructed - better than the ones I took out. They seem to be used as oem by Suzuki and Kawasaki. Anyway lesson learned and I used a 2W bulb after that with no problem.
When I set the points gap to 0.35mm with new points ( ie middle of the 0.3 to 0.4MM, 12 to 16 thou range ) I ran out of timing adjustment. Have since learned this was probably due to the base plate having some slop in its mountings which can be eliminated by shimming the mount with a piece of sacrificial feeler gauge or by lightly tapping the mounting flanges inward. Otherwise as I found getting the timing and gap in range is a hit and miss affair as the back plate moves when tightened down. There is also some sideways slop in the 2/3 mini backplate. Good maxim is points gap affects timing - timing doesn’t affect points gap. I got there in the end by sufficient random efforts but not happy that my points gap ended up at the top end of the range.
Points gap sets dwell ( the angular duration that the points are closed to charge the primary coil) and so ideally gap is as small as possible. It’s arguably not so critical on sohc points set up because the dwell is already very generous compared with say a V8. I have now bought a Gunson auto ranger analogue dwell meter which are reckoned to be better than the newer digital ones. . The theoretical correct setting is 23- 24 degrees on 8 cylinder meter setting ( wasted spark issue ) but because of tolerances between points/ back plates / cams it is more important is get the dwell on both sets of points the same, and to dynamically check timing at the same time. Once set with new points you can just keep readjusting back to this point on the meter as the contacts and cam heel wear. Full advance is when the ll mark lines up and should be at 2500 rpm.
This a very good read.
https://motorcycleproject.com/text/sohcign.html
I’ll report back on the dynamic set up when I get the bike running which shouldn’t be too long now. Wrestled the headers on for my 4into one yesterday - why weren’t we born with 3 hands !
Post by: Oddjob on December 14, 2023, 09:15:42 AM
In hindsight what I should have done was retest the setting using the Honda equipment when I had access to it in the trade but tbh the bike ran great at 48 degrees and was the same engine that would tick over at 5-600 rpm. Interesting to read Mike saying no more than 1100 rpm for timing when some members are advising setting the tick over at 1200 rpm, I always followed the Honda setting of 1000 rpm as the optimum setting. Faster tick overs just disguise engine faults in my experience, not saying you shouldn’t do this btw, better to have the engine ticking over smoothly than banging it’s nuts off, just as long as you are aware of the faults like a slack primary chain and get round to fixing it before it really becomes a problem.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 14, 2023, 10:01:23 AM
Post by: Seabeowner on December 14, 2023, 07:19:51 PM
And the two cam assemblies numbers for Hitachi and Toyo are the same for 500 and 550K3, so you would think the dwell is the same.
It's on page 181 of my manual and Honda are capable of making one or two or three mistakes.
Post by: Oddjob on December 14, 2023, 07:52:22 PM
Post by: Bryanj on December 14, 2023, 09:06:04 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 15, 2023, 02:27:08 PM
IIRC it was a multi meter type unit - I don't think it was a particularly expensive item at the time.
Truth is members here will follow the advice of those with a proven track record or look to reinforce existing personal bias in terms of solutions & outcome.
Interestingly one issue that crops up regularly is bleeding front brakes. It appears that some members have never had a problem even when using quite different methods to reach the same outcome. I pump fluid up using a large syringe at the caliper end until fluid appears at the master cylinder reservoir. It works for me but not for some. I don't think this makes my method invalid it just means for some it fails to work for unidentified reasons.
Post by: deltarider on December 15, 2023, 02:42:13 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 15, 2023, 04:42:39 PM
They were bloody expensive here. Usually they doubled as Tach/Dwell meters. Some had more functions. I have two analogue ones that each cost a week salary in the 70s. Now you can find them cheap on ebay. You'd better not use the extra functions some had. Readings Ohms wasn't as good as a cheap digital meter now is, and the accuracy of the Amps function was a joke.
Where is here, not the UK?
Post by: Bryanj on December 15, 2023, 05:11:50 PM
All the 500/550 are not the same, there are at least 2 different advancers with different advance curves, when i was in the trade i NEVER had a bad set of daichi contacts OR condenser, now its different due to change of factory and QC.
Delta you are very pedantic that you are always right, you say dont fit fuel filters, i used them for years and again never once had a problem.
We all have our own ways of doing things, points gap is specified as 0.35mm or 14 thou and i bought feeler sets with those sizes specifically, i also never use a strobe only do static timing and again never a problem, there is also a fixation about not using rtv gasket, its fine WHEN USED VERY THINLY.
More and more we could go on about, i started working on bikes for a living in 1975, part time from 1972 and have done most Japanese, most English and have even worked on the rarest Ducati the 750ss, nice ride by the way,
Post by: davidcumbria on December 16, 2023, 09:28:36 AM
So any tips on a good process to get it all connected up again. I assume I have to shove all the loom, switchgear, tachometer/ speedo, idiot lights leads into the headlight shell first and then try to make the connections. This is going to take awhile….
I have also found the section in Teds thread that has some useful stuff
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,28541.540.html
Post by: Johnny4428 on December 16, 2023, 09:44:21 AM
Post by: Bryanj on December 16, 2023, 10:57:51 AM
Post by: Oddjob on December 16, 2023, 03:31:21 PM
On PDI the first job we did was remove the headlight and connect all the wires up, none were connected by Honda, just a huge mess of spaghetti when you took off the headlight, good job I wasn't colour blind, getting some of the headlights back in afterwards was sometimes hard, the CX500 was a bitch to do. Make a sort of doughnut shape with the wires so the bulb holder can fit inside the hole, easier on the CB550 than on the 500 as the handlebar switches don't connect in the headlight but down by the coils so far less in the bowl than the 500.
Post by: Bryanj on December 16, 2023, 07:27:14 PM
Ken was also correct about the brown/blue/ yellow thing, i just couldnt rememer the colours
Post by: Seabeowner on December 16, 2023, 07:34:51 PM
I proved to an apprentice that i could be as accurate with a feeler gauge as he was with a dwell box, it is down to experience and practice.Seems any old numbers may have been superseded but whatever, I have three different parts lists and manuals for four variations of 500 and 550 and they are now all called up as the same so Delta has a point.
All the 500/550 are not the same, there are at least 2 different advancers with different advance curves, when i was in the trade i NEVER had a bad set of daichi contacts OR condenser, now its different due to change of factory and QC.
The most important thing is that the spark comes at the right time in the cycle and I believe that they are all 5 deg BTDC at idle and 25 deg fully advanced. Also there needs to be enough time to (for a better word) energise the coils. Presumably dwell plays a part here but of course the time will in change inversely according to RPM.
And anyway I'm grumpy as I just sheared a bolt off in the sump of my 500 and it was not in anyway tight. So I'll be laying underneath it tomorrow.
Post by: davidcumbria on December 16, 2023, 11:13:04 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 17, 2023, 03:42:07 AM
As you will see from my 500 project my wiring took me a while to sort it out as I had the wrong bar switches- I did a spreadsheet to help me figure out the wires in the bowl. I will PM you a copy of my wiring spreadsheet Dave - obviously there might be a few differences between the 500 & 550 but you might find it's helpful in terms of what colours are used for what.
I found the horn & the starter solenoid appear to work in one of two ways either the button was an earth or it supplied power looking at the internal switch wiring. My findings for my switch gear are at the bottom of the spreadsheet.
Post by: davidcumbria on December 21, 2023, 08:48:04 AM
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,7401.msg67251.html#msg67251
Post by: deltarider on December 21, 2023, 10:49:16 AM
Much in that thread you've referred to, is questionable and many claims have remained unproven. From time to time it has therefore been met with criticism from some, including yours truly.
Post by: Johnny4428 on December 21, 2023, 11:18:10 AM
Post by: deltarider on December 21, 2023, 12:03:21 PM
Although I have asked for proof and/or substantiation from the OP, I never got it.
Personally I fail to understand how it can ever be benifical for the advance and driveability. Whenever I open my throttle from idle, full advance is reached within a tenth of a second.
A positive effect has been reported by a Swede, but that concerns a CB750. This is all we know so far.
Real tests are welcome ofcourse.
Post by: K2-K6 on December 21, 2023, 12:27:40 PM
Some directly contradict each other, the settings of timing do offer evidence to show why it's not the panacea that's projected.
The discussion is though much more linked to the one on here about camshaft modification for these engine and likely more productive to discuss it there rather than derail this bike build thread.
Post by: davidcumbria on January 01, 2024, 06:42:43 PM
With good help from Ted I managed to get all connections made and all electrics working after a bit of playing around with indicators not flashing etc.
Went for the first start and to my dismay petrol started pouring out of the plenum drain even though I had tested float height and valve seating on all carbs during the rebuild. After tapping the float bowls it settled down. I reckon the floats somehow got stuck and due to having a high mounted aux tank head and flow of fuel overwhelmed their efforts to seal and the overflow pipes capacity to vent.
After a lot of spinning the engine did start, puffed out a lot of smoke but finally was running on all 4, idling smoothly and picking up ok. No fuel dripping. Best of all the engine much quieterso seems like the new primary chain, cam tensioner and valve cover have done their job. Will provide a link to a video when I can figure out how to do that.
My restart attempts came to a sudden halt when all electric power lost and the main fuse blew. No problems at all with fusing during the electrical reassembly. I traced the problem to problems inside the aftermarket right switch gear.
That has turned into a two day saga of stripping and trying to rebuild the switchgear. Basic problem is that the soldered terminal for the power supply to the start switch when assembled has a tiny clearance of about 0.5mm from the handle bar. The switch gear doesn’t have a handlebar location peg so when moving slightly under throttle turning it could make a dead short with the handle bar. Bang goes the main fuse for which the po had fitted 50A - bit of a smoking gun I think with the emphasis on smoking ! I also discovered the kill switch was working intermittently. Don’t know if it had been dismantled previously but there may be questions of the internal quality of these vs oem.
Rebuilding the switchgear while not wanting to pull the cable through has turned into a nightmare of inaccessible c clips, lost or missing detent ball bearings, new failures in soldered joints due to all the disturbance, and the final straw a spring pinging out to god knows where. 10 hours wasted effort so I’ve given up and bad temperedly ordered a new one. Best advice would be to not even try to do this without pulling it all through - hindsight a wonderful thing. Need a couple of days off now to recuperate. But the good news is it runs and with new switchgear in place I won’t be forever worrying about what reliability issues I may have left in there.
Post by: Oddjob on January 01, 2024, 07:44:22 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on January 01, 2024, 08:27:35 PM
Post by: Oddjob on January 01, 2024, 09:58:37 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on January 01, 2024, 10:12:15 PM
Post by: Oddjob on January 01, 2024, 10:20:06 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on January 02, 2024, 06:10:58 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 02, 2024, 11:28:51 AM
Even though they were aftermarket ones.
Post by: davidcumbria on January 02, 2024, 01:37:13 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 02, 2024, 02:44:30 PM
Had another look and definitely no peg on switchgear or hole in the bars so they do match. If my new switches have a peg I can drill the bars. Be interested to hear what others have seen on similar bikes (74 550k1 import)
Could a PO have removed the pegs to make them fit the bars he had?
Post by: Oddjob on January 02, 2024, 04:06:06 PM
I have some genuine bars off ATM Dave if you need measurements. As per the goldilocks idea, they must be drilled in the exact position needed for location of the switchgear.
Post by: davidcumbria on January 03, 2024, 06:48:59 PM
the revs were staedy at 1000 but then dropped to 500 when the clutch started to rattle.
at least it runs
https://youtu.be/d4FQ1nrdKNk?si=XJg-MaSwr9PXslKP
Post by: Seabeowner on January 03, 2024, 06:55:40 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on January 03, 2024, 07:28:42 PM
Post by: Oddjob on January 03, 2024, 08:23:57 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 03, 2024, 09:47:12 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on January 03, 2024, 10:26:24 PM
Sounds a little uneven to me, I would refrain from revving it too much as well until you've done the timing with a strobe and vacced the carbs.Yes it doesn’t feel quite right and from the plugs is running rich on all 4. May have to adjust needle position but will start with air screws and will take it easy on the revving while I check the timing and sync. Can you explain more what you mean by uneven pls
Post by: DomP on January 03, 2024, 11:19:43 PM
Post by: Oddjob on January 04, 2024, 03:30:46 AM
If the engine will start from cold with no choke it’s clearly running too rich. Try another 1/4 turn out on the air screws, see if that makes a difference.
For a first start though Dave it’s pretty good.
Post by: davidcumbria on January 04, 2024, 06:53:33 AM
That must feel nice to get it running again, I'm going to feel a bit nervous starting my 550 for the first time. Are you going to be able to get out on it soon to run it in once you've sorted the timing etc? That's my concern as I've still got quite a bit to do to get mine roadworthy....I see why Ken suggests doing the engine rebuild last
Thanks Dom - yes it’s not too far off roadworthy. After so much time on the engine and carbs I got to the point where I was very keen to hear it run. Won’t be going out in the wet or while there’s any salt around mind you. Probably around March.
Post by: deltarider on January 04, 2024, 08:25:14 AM
Do you happen to know your carb settings, like: # slow jet, # main jet, needle position and position of the airscrews? I take it the carbs have the number 022A stamped in.
Post by: davidcumbria on January 04, 2024, 07:47:08 PM
Looks promising, David. I'm curious what ignition you run. Standard or EI?
Do you happen to know your carb settings, like: # slow jet, # main jet, needle position and position of the airscrews? I take it the carbs have the number 022A stamped in.
It’s standard points ignitionwith new Few brand ( Japanese)points. 22A carbs with standard jetting 100 main, needle in the middle , 38 pilot ( maybe standard is 40 ). I adjusted the screws fro 1.25 to 1.5 turns out today and the idle/ pick up seemed slightly better. Dynamic timing showed it to be about 2 degrees retarded ( 7? degrees) so I’ve slightly adjusted that. The dwells were close but not exactly the same so I can work on the points set up a bit.
Post by: davidcumbria on January 04, 2024, 08:03:28 PM
https://youtube.com/shorts/4YWwdzR1luc?si=-0d4UmGrUiFTgELr
Post by: deltarider on January 05, 2024, 08:51:30 AM
[...] It’s standard points ignitionwith new Few brand ( Japanese)points. 22A carbs with standard jetting 100 main, needle in the middle , 38 pilot ( maybe standard is 40 ). I adjusted the screws fro 1.25 to 1.5 turns out today and the idle/ pick up seemed slightly better. Dynamic timing showed it to be about 2 degrees retarded ( 7? degrees) so I’ve slightly adjusted that. The dwells were close but not exactly the same so I can work on the points set up a bit.You can compare yours to the standard 022A in the updated overview below. Even if the jet needles are one step leaner than standard, I'd leave the carbs alone for now.
As far as the ignition, a few remarks, if you allow me.
Realise that advancer is a somewhat misleading term. Retarder would have been better, because the thing is mainly there to facilitate easier starting. Have a look at the advancer below. The yellow mark indicates 5o BTDC. Easy starting is then guaranteed. But my bike starts just as easy at 8o BTDC. I do not strive to have it spot on 5o BTDC. I concentrate on a correct timing at full advance of around 30o instead, from say 2800 RPM on. Full advance is indicated by the two marks, one blue, one green. They are 3o apart and I'll come to that next.
I've always used genuine Honda parts and on my bike, they are by TEC (TOYO), but things work just the same with Hitachi parts.
Out of curiosity I once experimented with setting things exactly spot on and then varied the dwell.
With timing static set at exactly 5o and a dwell of exactly 49o (= 0,3mm gap), full advance would be at the first full advance (blue in the pic) mark, 28,5o. When I changed the dwell to 46o (= 0,4mm gap), full advance would be at the second full advance (green in the pic) mark, 31,5o. I should add, this test done was on my bike only and I am sorry to say I have not completed the experiment by repeating this for 2+3. I was quite impressed by the accuracy of Honda parts and even more when I choose the middle: a dwell of 47,5o (= 0,35mm gap) which not only resulted in a full advance right between the two full advance marks 30o but also, as a bonus, having all components in the middle of their adjustment range.
Using OEM parts, having everything in the middle of the adjustment range, seems to be a good starting point. With aftermarket parts, it's anybody's guess. When I helped a friend who had a Daiichi plate and breakers, I did not arrive at having components in the middle of their adjustment range, when I choose the middle. I'm not saying Daiichi parts are therefore bad, they're are different. In the past I have suggested that Daiichi in the US must be Chinese imitations of the Daiichi sets we have in Europe which were made in Japan. The reason is that I know quite some riders here, that have satisfactorily results with them. As said: the US market is another story. I'm curious to know how your breakerpoints will do.
I always have my ignition 2-3o more advanced which results in a better throttle respons (driveability) but that's up to anyone's liking and it could also be fuel related.
I can recommend to begin simply with a feeler gauge when setting the breakerpoints gap. If you have a dwellmeter, I'd use it. Then you can set the breakerpoints dynamically and also check the dwell remains constant and does not wander when RPM changes.
Checking the timing is best done using a strobe, but, I would not attempt to adjust the timing dynamically. Plates will move about and it can become a frustrating experience. To avoid the hassle, I check at full advance. Then stop the engine and make the needed adjustment, start engine again and check again at full advance. You may have to stop the engine again for a further adjustment. This has worked for me. Just accept the timing @ idle it will result in.
(Re)setting the gaps comes first, because it is there, where the timing begins to deviate from the ideal. As a matter of fact: usually just resetting the gaps (dwell) is the only thing you have to do, to arrive at the correct timing again. Makes sense, the plates are well fastened and won't wander. At least not that I have seen.
Your ignition needs to be tuned a bit, but - listening to the engine now - I'm sure it will run beautifully. It's a wonderful bike.
Post by: davidcumbria on January 05, 2024, 09:21:54 AM
Post by: davidcumbria on January 21, 2024, 07:13:29 PM
Post by: Oddjob on January 22, 2024, 08:37:16 AM
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 22, 2024, 08:42:41 AM
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Post by: Oddjob on January 22, 2024, 08:47:21 AM
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 22, 2024, 08:48:13 AM
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Post by: davidcumbria on January 22, 2024, 09:01:39 AM
Post by: davidcumbria on January 23, 2024, 01:46:25 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 24, 2024, 07:03:34 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on January 24, 2024, 10:11:57 PM
As an aside I also fitted a new aftermarket chrome headlight surround from CMS. I know there have been problems with some aftermarket not fitting but this is perfect so I’m chuffed about that.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 24, 2024, 11:25:54 PM
Looking at my build notes my starter button wiring is Red/Yellow trace and black at the switch.
I will check & add insulation if needed.
I thought my starter button earthed the solenoid - it was ages ago so probably not, if it does I do not think the starter operating when the engine is running due to an earth fault would be a good thing.
Post by: davidcumbria on February 06, 2024, 11:16:11 PM
On the road it is prone to hitting a flat spot when setting off and stalling if not careful. Once moving it tootles along ok at 1.5 to 3k on a steady light throttle. The pick up from light to medium throttle is the main problem - definite stuttering and sometimes misfiring severely enough to be like an electrical fault. Haven’t done much above 3k but it does seem to pick up more smoothly from here.
Plugs are ok to good on2,3,4 but quickly sooty on 1. Obviously a richness problem there but I wonder if that alone on 1 cylinder would cause the stuttering.
. Carbs are not overflowing. Timing rechecked with strobe. Is advanced siginificantly off static mark F by 1100 rpm but moves close to F when revs drop to 700 rpm. As revs rise 1/4 2/3 full advance marks line up, probably not much over 2k. Dwell the same for both sets with gap in range.
I’m a bit concerned about my ht leads which despite trimming don’t seem to want to screw up very tight on the caps so will have another look at that but would have thought this might cause problems at higher revs or starting which doesn’t seem to be problem.
Air screws set at 1.25 turns out -again I’m not sure if this adjustment could cause or resolve the stuttering but willing to try.
Will swap the plugs around to see if the sootiness moves.
Will check the carb sync
Lastly will reluctantly remove the carbs ( 105 main, 40 pilot, middle slot needle ) in case there is a problem with float level, new pilot circuit blockage or mistaken needle position. Has a delkevic 4-1 exhaust system. Pilot jet fuel and air circuits clean as a whistle when I rebuilt the carbs. The needle and jets are cruzinimage aftermarket but I looked at them very closely and could see no dimensional difference to the ones I took out, which were not marked keihin in any case.
Any thoughts of suggestions welcome. Despite this I have already got a sense that this is going to be a very satifying bike to ride smooth, nimble and torquey.
Post by: Bryanj on February 07, 2024, 12:17:19 AM
Post by: davidcumbria on February 07, 2024, 07:24:18 AM
Post by: deltarider on February 07, 2024, 08:19:25 AM
Post by: davidcumbria on February 07, 2024, 09:03:48 AM
Post by: deltarider on February 07, 2024, 02:50:06 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on February 07, 2024, 05:48:19 PM
Picks up with out significant hesitation from below 2k revs when opening throttle and revs cleanly to 5 k which is as far as i want to take it for now. Love the way it picks up from 30 mph in 5th gear 1500 rpm and no stuttering. cylinder no 1 plug is still sooty and my temperature gun shows it running cooler than the the other three cylinders but more than happy enough for now with how its running.
Hearing the engine idling so so quiet and smooth for the first time outside the garage is just a joy after being knee deep in knackered shells, jammed gearbox and damaged crankcases at the start of this thread. link to video of the bike below. I have a little play with the idle adjuster to show it running smoothly at the bottom of the rev counter,
Just waiting for my seat trim. have decided not to put a strap over the seat as it would not match the slightly aged cover. the chrome could be better on the rear mudguard/ light but I actually quite like the non mirror dazzling patina and it works well with all the shined up stainless steel bolts i have fitted. Many thanks to all on here who have coached, encouraged and provided parts along the way.
looking forward to riding the bike and meeting up with some of you this year.
https://youtu.be/0GzZUrDeHhU
Post by: Johnny4428 on February 07, 2024, 07:22:44 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 07, 2024, 07:39:40 PM
I'm on month 17 now tbh I've done nowt since November of any significance - I plan to come out of hibernation sometime around March/April.
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 07, 2024, 07:40:27 PM
Post by: deltarider on February 08, 2024, 03:29:26 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on February 08, 2024, 05:35:34 PM
Also I have looked into this now which explains a lot. The 750 tach ratio is 4 to1and the 550 is 6.7 to 1. So on my 550 with a 750 tacho the indicated revs are way too low.
1000 indicated is actually 1667 and 1150rpm tickover would indicate as 690 rpm. This is why I always felt it seemed to revving too fast when setting the tickover using this tacho and why it is happy to tickover well below the 1k mark.
I need to put a mark on the tacho at 5500 which equates to the 9250 red line on a correct 550 tacho. Damn good job you pointed this out or I would have been revving the nuts off it and wondering why it wouldn’t Rev up to the red line.
This really puts my mind at rest because listening the noise my engine makes at indicated 5000 ( only seen revving in neutral - max on the road so far has been very briefly 4000 (6700) ) I was already feeling uncomfortable about how much more it had got to get to the 750 red line at 8000. .This would be actually be 13400 in reality so was never going to happen and could have got messy!
So funny reading all this they love to be revved stuff and this conflicting with my mechanical sympathy about what I was hearing and the Rev counter was showing and now a big sense of relief. We live and learn - especially on this forum👍
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 08, 2024, 08:51:32 PM
It reminded me of when I first had my old Honda 250 Super Sport after the 250 Dream - the engine speed always sounded much lower than the rev counter reading as the two firing strokes were closer together on a 180 crank than on a parallel twin. All I heard was the one firing bang as the two power strokes were closer together. I suspect the smoother balance of a 180 crank helped make the revs seem less than the needle was reading.
Post by: davidcumbria on February 08, 2024, 09:48:51 PM
I don’t think there is a fix for this while retaining the 750 tacho but pretty sure I can live with it now I m clued up.
Was kind of musing about doing a super dream as my next resto…
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 09, 2024, 07:54:11 AM
As a young man of course the Sport version meant it was faster, it had more students looking at it in the bike shed. Oh the shallow naivety of my youth. 😁😁😁
Post by: deltarider on February 09, 2024, 08:10:58 AM
So it was the sound in combination with the rpm the dial indicated.
Post by: davidcumbria on February 09, 2024, 08:27:31 AM
I have looked at trying to convert the tacho which is in good cosmetic condition to read correctly but there seem to be conflicting opinions. . I reckon Camshaft tacho drive can’t be swapped but is there a gear drive in the instrument itself that could be swapped from a rough 550 eBay tacho ? Not sure how the internals of a tacho work. I’ve read enough to decide that if it requires opening up / re closing the ferrule I won’t be doing it myself.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 09, 2024, 09:02:43 AM
Might be Kent400 could swap some internals.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 09, 2024, 11:14:49 AM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334629151614?hash=item4de973a37e:g:3bwAAOSwjkRjc8PU
Post by: davidcumbria on February 09, 2024, 12:52:29 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 09, 2024, 01:33:32 PM
BLMC Mini Smiths Speedometers had a number in very small print on the clock face that we used to refer to as the Wey Speed. This digit was about 6 digits long it was some sort of standard for the calibration. If the Wey Speed was the same for two clocks they were interchangable even if the face markings differed in terms of the maximum speed.
Sometimes a silver faced clock from an old Morris Minor matched that of a Mini so you could switch them knowing they were accurate.
Post by: davidcumbria on February 10, 2024, 08:14:04 AM
Fitted a seat trim with the prepared ends yesterday which involved drilling 12 holes in my seat pan. Very fiddly but got there in the end and happy with my seat after a shine up with bike sprits spray cleaner I heard about on here. So cosmetically that’s it for now 😎
Tested my plug caps and got 13k , 14k, 15k, and 35 k ! Got a replacement on order for the outlier and will see what that measures on my multimeter before replacing all of them. Bike fires up on the button and no indication of problems at higher revs. The plugless leads for both coils measured 15k., running Denso non restrictor plugs. Kind of shows that the system is pretty robust though some think that the high resistance will shorten coil life. Will play safe and have 5 k caps all round if my meter isn’t trying to fool me.
Post by: davidcumbria on February 29, 2024, 10:05:57 PM
Bike was running ok / good as above but we like to fiddle don’t we? Changing the plug caps made no difference to sooty no 1 plug and digital thermometer showed it running a good 20 % cooler than the other 3. My first effort in (removing ) then replacing the carbs on a fully built bike went smoothly. Air box out and plenum minus rubbers in frame, carbs push onto engine intakes, plenum rubbers push into plenum from carb side with plenty of red grease then fit to carbs. Not the struggle I was expecting.
For peace of mind I rechecked the needle position which is the middle ( third ) groove on all so no slip up there. All main jets 100 and pilots 38. Thought there was possibly a small new blockage in no 1 idle circuit as the carb cleaner didn’t spray through cleanly at first attempt. Blow through with airline and all good. I went back to original needles and left the new Cruz in image needle jet tubes in place. I found No change to sootiness and bike idling worse ( hanging then stalling from 1100 rpm ) so probably should have left the Cruz in needles in and the possible pilot circuit blockage clearance didn’t nail it as I’d hoped.
Finally after the carbs were back on bike I managed to change the no 1 idle jet to 35. Seems to be running best it’s been with smooth idle, no hanging and good top end power but no chance to road test yet. Watch this space.
Btw this has been a very useful and informative thread on the subject for me and confirms my experience that the pilot jets and air screw setting are influential very significantly above idle indeed in a lot of the Rev range you might be using during running in.
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,25673.60.html
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 29, 2024, 11:00:40 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on March 12, 2024, 07:34:58 AM
Post by: Laverda Dave on March 12, 2024, 08:29:42 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 12, 2024, 09:08:04 AM
Post by: davidcumbria on March 19, 2024, 08:10:45 PM
Up to 120 miles now and running great - no issues at all. Wearing earplugs cured the excess noise , a little more economical than buying a new 4 into 4. It is such fun to bimble along B roads at 40 - 60 mph - torquey, comfortable, pleasing to wind up and fairly nimble. Who needs a 150 bhp £20 k super naked when these look better and are so satisfying to ride ?
Post by: Johnny4428 on March 19, 2024, 10:33:41 PM