Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 16, 2015, 07:56:28 AM
I purchased a 550K engine to put in my project. The engine has very low miles and is in excellent condition, but the PO bought it to cannibalised the head for his own project, then replaced it with another at a later date before selling it on to me.
He tells me the engine is ready to drop in and go, and looking at the quality of the bikes he had restored previously, I'm almost tempted to believe him, almost...
Trig mentioned awhile ago that I should check the sump and oil screen before installing, and I'm planning on checking the tappet clearances and changing oil/filter, but what else should I be doing before I try to drop this in the frame?
I don't have an engine mount, so what is the best way to access the sump - can I lay the engine up on its side?
Do I need a new gasket for the sump or can I reuse the old one?
I'm playing with the idea of polishing the covers, as there are a few spots of corrosion where the clear coat has been nicked. Again, if I remove these covers, will I need new gaskets or are the old ones reusable?
Anything I'm missing?
Any advice, as always, would be gratefully recieved.
Post by: Trigger on January 16, 2015, 09:10:55 AM
The sump gasket is rubber and you will not know until you remove the sump, which is 10x 6mm bolts.
The oil strainer just pulls out after you remove the rubber hose with is held on by wire clips.
The cases can be polished but, need the lacquer removed first. The alternator gasket can easy be re-used and the clutch gasket depends on the condition.
Be careful when moving the engine about as it is easy to damage. Not a light unit at about 76kg.
Post by: martin_uk on January 16, 2015, 09:57:34 AM
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7544/15933354896_192c7f41f8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qgYBis)2014_1206Kparts0020 (https://flic.kr/p/qgYBis) by nitram2010 (https://www.flickr.com/people/46578358@N07/), on Flickr
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 16, 2015, 12:57:44 PM
Post by: Trigger on January 16, 2015, 03:41:38 PM
Thanks for the tips! Is there any way to check if the PO has installed the head correctly?
Only by stripping the top end down. Check if the cam chain has been lined up right and if the head nuts have been torque down but, this will not tell you if it has piston rings or not ;D
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 16, 2015, 03:47:57 PM
THAT would be an unpleasant surprise. Will have a look in my haynes for a cam chain procedure. This will be the first time I've ever delved into an engine that isn't in a chainsaw!Thanks for the tips! Is there any way to check if the PO has installed the head correctly?
Only by stripping the top end down. Check if the cam chain has been lined up right and if the head nuts have been torque down but, this will not tell you if it has piston rings or not ;D
Post by: matthewmosse on January 16, 2015, 04:50:29 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 16, 2015, 07:05:28 PM
Post by: LesterPiglet on January 16, 2015, 08:15:26 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 24, 2015, 06:03:25 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/24/656198e17849f8746b43f7caef2f7a65.jpg)
After thinning out the gunk with some petrol, this was left behind. Is this something to be concerned about?
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/24/e47ec23a67f1c673136e3b432bc0a5d4.jpg)
A quick look up top didn't reveal any obvious wear to me, so bonus there. The main chain running top to bottom was able to slide side to side a bit - is this an issue?
Adjusted the valves, checked the static timing, and adjusted the cam shaft tension. For the cam tension, other than loosening and re tightening the adjuster bolt, is there anything else to it? Seems too simple....
Post by: Trigger on January 24, 2015, 06:09:22 PM
Cant see any thin rubber.
Post by: Woodside on January 24, 2015, 08:30:55 PM
That's where all the s##t should end up
Don't panic.
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 25, 2015, 12:19:22 AM
Can't see any gold in that pan. Get a magnetic sump bolt and everything should be good.Some gold would be nice... balance my budget.
Cant see any thin rubber.
Here's a closer pic of the rubber bits(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/24/e43c653906ebd77c9d74d4a81ba3a647.jpg)
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 25, 2015, 12:21:33 AM
Glad to hear! I think it's all ready to go, mechanically anyways. Just polishing the side cases now.
That's where all the s##t should end up
Don't panic.
Post by: Woodside on January 25, 2015, 08:29:21 AM
I think it was trigger who told me that pumping diesel around the engine via the kick start was a good way of lubricating and clearing all oil ways..its just a very light oil after all
Post by: mike the bike on January 25, 2015, 10:05:55 AM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 26, 2015, 10:34:27 AM
Got to disagree. Quite a lot of debris in the sump IMO, the reason it's in the sump and hasn't been captured by the oil filter is because it's probably too heavy for the oil to keep suspended, lots of little flecks of what are clearly alloy, most probably from the crankcases. Some are to be expected as small areas will be lost over time as flashing from the casting process dislodges. However I'd check the primary chain as the main reason for large amounts of alloy to show in the sump is because the chain is grinding it's way through the oil tunnel directly under the chain. As there is no tensioner fitted to the 500/550 when the chain starts to wear it droops, when it droops enough it starts to hit the oil tunnel, hence why at tickover a lot of 500/550 engines sound noisy.Oddjob, the primary chain can slip side to side a bit, but doesn't seem to have any slack so that it should slap. Is the side to side movement normal?
The small rubbers bits aren't excess gasket material, gaskets from that era are almost always made of paper, paper would be held in suspension so would be caught by the filter. It could be excess gasket glue, like Hylomar etc, however they look a little large for that. I suspect they are either damping rubber bits off the primary drive hub or bit's of the cam chain guide or tensioner slipper.
The good news is that it's fairly simple to check the camchain tensioner without removing the head, if it requires renewal I'd advise changing the chain at the same time, again no need to remove the head or barrels, just pop the bottom case off and if your that far in then change the primary chain and damping rubbers at the same time.
If the camchain guide is worn then you will need to remove the head, however in most cases the tensioner wears well before the guide gets trashed.
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 26, 2015, 10:35:42 AM
Got to disagree. Quite a lot of debris in the sump IMO, the reason it's in the sump and hasn't been captured by the oil filter is because it's probably too heavy for the oil to keep suspended, lots of little flecks of what are clearly alloy, most probably from the crankcases. Some are to be expected as small areas will be lost over time as flashing from the casting process dislodges. However I'd check the primary chain as the main reason for large amounts of alloy to show in the sump is because the chain is grinding it's way through the oil tunnel directly under the chain. As there is no tensioner fitted to the 500/550 when the chain starts to wear it droops, when it droops enough it starts to hit the oil tunnel, hence why at tickover a lot of 500/550 engines sound noisy.How do I check the cam chain tensioner?
The small rubbers bits aren't excess gasket material, gaskets from that era are almost always made of paper, paper would be held in suspension so would be caught by the filter. It could be excess gasket glue, like Hylomar etc, however they look a little large for that. I suspect they are either damping rubber bits off the primary drive hub or bit's of the cam chain guide or tensioner slipper.
The good news is that it's fairly simple to check the camchain tensioner without removing the head, if it requires renewal I'd advise changing the chain at the same time, again no need to remove the head or barrels, just pop the bottom case off and if your that far in then change the primary chain and damping rubbers at the same time.
If the camchain guide is worn then you will need to remove the head, however in most cases the tensioner wears well before the guide gets trashed.
Post by: mike the bike on January 26, 2015, 11:26:47 AM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 26, 2015, 02:37:07 PM
I was referring to the snobs of gasket goo interested sump; nothing to worry about. The particles of alloy are a different matter. It's more likely that the cam chain tensioner (the horseshoe part) is sticking causing the camchain to rub the sides of the camchain tunnel.After reading up a bit on the cam chain tensioner, I'm pretty sure mine is broken. The screw does not twist and spring back, it grinds and sticks at various places but will rotate 360 degrees. So.... time to get back into the engine.
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 26, 2015, 02:38:10 PM
Got to disagree. Quite a lot of debris in the sump IMO, the reason it's in the sump and hasn't been captured by the oil filter is because it's probably too heavy for the oil to keep suspended, lots of little flecks of what are clearly alloy, most probably from the crankcases. Some are to be expected as small areas will be lost over time as flashing from the casting process dislodges. However I'd check the primary chain as the main reason for large amounts of alloy to show in the sump is because the chain is grinding it's way through the oil tunnel directly under the chain. As there is no tensioner fitted to the 500/550 when the chain starts to wear it droops, when it droops enough it starts to hit the oil tunnel, hence why at tickover a lot of 500/550 engines sound noisy.So I can remove and replace the tensioner through the sump?
The small rubbers bits aren't excess gasket material, gaskets from that era are almost always made of paper, paper would be held in suspension so would be caught by the filter. It could be excess gasket glue, like Hylomar etc, however they look a little large for that. I suspect they are either damping rubber bits off the primary drive hub or bit's of the cam chain guide or tensioner slipper.
The good news is that it's fairly simple to check the camchain tensioner without removing the head, if it requires renewal I'd advise changing the chain at the same time, again no need to remove the head or barrels, just pop the bottom case off and if your that far in then change the primary chain and damping rubbers at the same time.
If the camchain guide is worn then you will need to remove the head, however in most cases the tensioner wears well before the guide gets trashed.
Post by: tom400f on January 26, 2015, 02:44:54 PM
At least then you are not disturbing the head and barrels.
Is this your new engine of the one that came with the bike?
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 26, 2015, 02:50:46 PM
Not sure, I doubt that could be done but the suggestion is you take the bottom crankcase off, so you can lift the crank out (avec pistons etc) and put a new cam chain on. At the top end you would only be taking the rocker cover off.Unfortunately it's the "new" engine.
At least then you are not disturbing the head and barrels.
Is this your new engine of the one that came with the bike?
Sorry for being so new here, but I haven't read the manual yet so just picturing what is necessary to do the job. Is it easier to replace the chain from the bottom? I thought I could do it all if I pulled the cam cover off - does the head and barrels have to come off to if I go from the top?
Post by: tom400f on January 26, 2015, 04:28:57 PM
You need to pass the chain over the crank/cam shafts because it is endless so these need to be removed. You can lift the crank out from the bottom with the barrels/head still in place. Take off the cam cover as per. No need to disturb your gaskets/o-rings. Careful not to drop anything into the cylinders and not notice while the engine is inverted :P stuff em with rags.
Post by: Bryanj on January 26, 2015, 04:33:53 PM
To be honest, considering the normal oil leaks at the head gasket and the fact that,apart from gasket surface cleaning, you are only talking about 1 1/2 hours extra its better to do a complete stip
Post by: tom400f on January 26, 2015, 04:35:31 PM
You cant get the pistons out downwards through the crankcase but you can undo the rods,
Ok that's an assumption on my part. What is stopping you from doing that?
Post by: Bryanj on January 26, 2015, 04:36:37 PM
Post by: tom400f on January 26, 2015, 04:38:41 PM
You know it's for the best ::)
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 26, 2015, 04:42:26 PM
#boohoo MrT. It's all coming apart ???Oh dear oh dear... well, perhaps I can just get away with replacing the tensioner... guess I won't know till its all in bits anyways.
You know it's for the best ::)
Post by: mike the bike on January 26, 2015, 06:14:42 PM
Post by: mickwinf on January 26, 2015, 07:03:49 PM
Post by: Bitsa (Ralph Wright - RIP) on January 26, 2015, 07:06:28 PM
Cheers
Bitsa
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 26, 2015, 07:20:52 PM
Agreed I would strip the lot wether it needed it or not.After you know all is ok ;)Except for the screwups I'll make myself! Downloaded and printed the honda shop manual and have my Haynes, so I'm ready for the weekend!
Cheers
Bitsa
Post by: Johnwebley on January 26, 2015, 07:29:54 PM
spray well with penetrating oil,concentrate on all the screws,bolts and nuts,
go and read the manuals for at least 12 hrs,
then come back and spray everything again,
preparation will make the job easier,
BTW,do you have an Impact screwdriver? much needed on Honda motors
Post by: Bitsa (Ralph Wright - RIP) on January 26, 2015, 07:50:08 PM
The beauty off all the fours is when you strip them and knowing the price of gaskets etc is when you put that top bit on you know its sound.
You know the the cam chain is new the cylinders are as best you can do the cases and all the oil ways are clean and free off shite.All the blades are new and work, can go on about it for hours
But you albiet its not new you know it is.Never trust anything unless you have done it yourself :D
Cheers
Bitsa
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 26, 2015, 09:54:16 PM
before you attempt to take the head ,rocker cover.clutch cover ,in fact just about all of the motor,I've started on the reading already. I've got a can of WD40 at the ready and already have an impact screwdriver. I'll have to borrow or buy a torque wrench though.
spray well with penetrating oil,concentrate on all the screws,bolts and nuts,
go and read the manuals for at least 12 hrs,
then come back and spray everything again,
preparation will make the job easier,
BTW,do you have an Impact screwdriver? much needed on Honda motors
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 26, 2015, 09:55:13 PM
Mr TTrue enough Bitsa, just wish I was a bit more confident about the job, but I guess there's a first for everyone.
The beauty off all the fours is when you strip them and knowing the price of gaskets etc is when you put that top bit on you know its sound.
You know the the cam chain is new the cylinders are as best you can do the cases and all the oil ways are clean and free off shite.All the blades are new and work, can go on about it for hours
But you albiet its not new you know it is.Never trust anything unless you have done it yourself :D
Cheers
Bitsa
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 26, 2015, 10:14:16 PM
Post by: mike the bike on January 26, 2015, 11:03:15 PM
Post by: Trigger on January 26, 2015, 11:33:28 PM
I was referring to the snobs of gasket goo interested sump; nothing to worry about. The particles of alloy are a different matter. It's more likely that the cam chain tensioner (the horseshoe part) is sticking causing the camchain to rub the sides of the camchain tunnel.
What horseshoe? There is no horseshoe on a 550.
Post by: Norniron on January 26, 2015, 11:36:07 PM
Stop it trig,of course there isI was referring to the snobs of gasket goo interested sump; nothing to worry about. The particles of alloy are a different matter. It's more likely that the cam chain tensioner (the horseshoe part) is sticking causing the camchain to rub the sides of the camchain tunnel.
What horseshoe? There is no horseshoe on a 550.
Post by: Trigger on January 26, 2015, 11:39:19 PM
Stop it trig,of course there isI was referring to the snobs of gasket goo interested sump; nothing to worry about. The particles of alloy are a different matter. It's more likely that the cam chain tensioner (the horseshoe part) is sticking causing the camchain to rub the sides of the camchain tunnel.
What horseshoe? There is no horseshoe on a 550.
On a 400 there is. It depends what you call a horseshoe ? On a 550 there is a blade and a tensioner
Post by: Trigger on January 26, 2015, 11:44:48 PM
Number 50 is a houseshoe ;)
Post by: LesterPiglet on January 27, 2015, 01:13:09 AM
Just looked at a replacement DID cam chain, and they're split link. If that's the case, can't I cut the one that's on there and use it to pull the new one through, avoiding the need to pull the crank?I have done that thousands of miles ago.
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 27, 2015, 01:27:51 PM
No horseshoe on a 500/550.Ok, I actually think I can visualise all the parts you mentioned - sounds doable. Will have a search round for how to tell if the cam chain and primary chain are worn and have a go this weekend.
If the head gasket is still sound I'd leave it alone, the tensioner can be removed by removing the skull cap/rocker train cap and removing the cam, the tensioner is held by a 6mm bolt at the back of the head, remove that and undo the 6mm nut from the adjuster screw and you should be able to push it forward and lift it out.
As Bryan says, the pistons won't come out of the bottom of the casing but you can split the rods off the crank to allow not only the primary but the camchain to be threaded off the crank. All you need to do is remove the primary shaft in order for the 2 casing halves to be split, assuming of course you've removed all the bolts/casings. The primary shaft can be removed by screwing the step bar bolt (lower engine hanger bolt) into the end of the shaft and using one of the footrests as a sort of sliding hammer. There is a thread somewhere showing pics of how to spot if the primary chain is buggered, look for it. Keep track of where everything came from, especially the conrods caps, they must go back onto the same rod they came off.
Sounds hard but actually a bit of common sense and it's fairly easy.
Post by: tom400f on January 27, 2015, 02:00:59 PM
But of course up to you... :P
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 27, 2015, 02:47:46 PM
Post by: matthewmosse on January 27, 2015, 05:19:38 PM
Post by: LesterPiglet on January 27, 2015, 11:19:07 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 30, 2015, 06:10:47 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/1096e6310506c64bd920c47a3615e8e8.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/9be72a8460ce0a7bf16f021fc9ef04af.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/36659d84acb945686650a012d36c6dee.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/8b288aad59d4d187052cc93d6ad409fb.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/58b20a8b4233415ef594962b7d825237.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/22c151bc2187e69720b664a1c6ad792e.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/6654a21671d9dba33b4ea96e51befc0a.jpg)
In the pic above, I was trying to show that the tiny gear on the cam adjuster bolt constantly slips out of the teeth in the adjuster body and jams up. Hoping my other one is good and I can just do a swap.
Post by: Trigger on January 30, 2015, 07:01:10 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 30, 2015, 07:45:36 PM
Also, what is the best way to clean the gasket surface? Do you apply a gasket paste/goo or just straight on?
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 30, 2015, 07:59:24 PM
Nice new engine studs.Hope it's new from factory and now just new. If I've gone this far, should I pull the barrels and replace that base gasket as well. Or is it pretty likely to seal up without doing that?
Post by: Bitsa (Ralph Wright - RIP) on January 30, 2015, 08:23:09 PM
Clean ring grooves,fit new rings blow out all the oilways new gaskets and that way you know its all good again.Carbon build up looks fairly normal from what I can see but your pics are so big for the snail net over here.
Cheers
Bitsa
Post by: Trigger on January 30, 2015, 08:28:58 PM
If it were me yes pull the cylinders you have gone this far shame not to finish the job.
Clean ring grooves,fit new rings blow out all the oilways new gaskets and that way you know its all good again.Carbon build up looks fairly normal from what I can see but your pics are so big for the snail net over here.
Cheers
Bitsa
Bitsa, you forgot to mention to cross hatch the bores ;)
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 30, 2015, 08:32:39 PM
If it were me yes pull the cylinders you have gone this far shame not to finish the job.Oh how I wish for the endless wallet....
Clean ring grooves,fit new rings blow out all the oilways new gaskets and that way you know its all good again.Carbon build up looks fairly normal from what I can see but your pics are so big for the snail net over here.
Cheers
Bitsa
Post by: Trigger on January 30, 2015, 08:35:00 PM
If it were me yes pull the cylinders you have gone this far shame not to finish the job.Oh how I wish for the endless wallet....
Clean ring grooves,fit new rings blow out all the oilways new gaskets and that way you know its all good again.Carbon build up looks fairly normal from what I can see but your pics are so big for the snail net over here.
Cheers
Bitsa
I may be down your way next week (Slough) so may pop in to see if it is finished ;)
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 30, 2015, 08:35:33 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/c19c6a0c24fda16db4aa274aea93bccc.jpg)
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 30, 2015, 08:36:48 PM
Feel free to pop in and have a look, but all I can guarantee is a cold beer or hot coffee.If it were me yes pull the cylinders you have gone this far shame not to finish the job.Oh how I wish for the endless wallet....
Clean ring grooves,fit new rings blow out all the oilways new gaskets and that way you know its all good again.Carbon build up looks fairly normal from what I can see but your pics are so big for the snail net over here.
Cheers
Bitsa
I may be down your way next week (Slough) so may pop in to see if it is finished ;)
Post by: Trigger on January 30, 2015, 08:38:53 PM
Post by: LesterPiglet on January 30, 2015, 08:43:03 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 30, 2015, 08:46:02 PM
Shall i bring my tools ;DCouldn't hurt.
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on January 30, 2015, 08:46:27 PM
That groove is nothing to worry about. Just a bit of the epoxy that bonds the copper wire on is missing.Good to hear.
Post by: tom400f on January 31, 2015, 09:40:37 AM
Can't see them because they are under your camshaft but dirty oil seems to make these go through first so may be a good indication of youth/care.
Post by: Trigger on February 01, 2015, 07:55:13 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on February 01, 2015, 08:16:22 PM
Nice meeting you Mr T, now you should have a lot fewer questions ;) That was a very nice house i took you to for the CB750 ;D ;D ;DMice meeting you too Trig, appreciate the help. Might want to shoot a bit more upmarket for the next purchase though.
Post by: Trigger on February 01, 2015, 08:18:39 PM
Nice meeting you Mr T, now you should have a lot fewer questions ;) That was a very nice house i took you to for the CB750 ;D ;D ;DMice meeting you too Trig, appreciate the help. Might want to shoot a bit more upmarket for the next purchase though.
Can not believe the guy was complaining that the 750 had dripped oil on his front room carpet ;D ;D ;D
Post by: Green1 on February 01, 2015, 08:52:53 PM
Mick
Post by: Trigger on February 01, 2015, 08:54:02 PM
Got another one then Trig. ;)
Mick
Yep. Mint ;D ;D ;D
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on February 01, 2015, 08:54:46 PM
Post by: Trigger on February 01, 2015, 08:56:13 PM
LOL. Just like his house.
You did not get murdered today. So, that is a bonus ;)
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on February 01, 2015, 08:57:25 PM