Honda-SOHC

SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: Rozabikes Tim on January 21, 2019, 10:31:49 AM

Title: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 21, 2019, 10:31:49 AM
Well, stripped the 400 this weekend after about 7 years of ownership when it has sat dormant in the Garage in the main. This is the rough bike a few of you will have seen at Crich the first year we met up.

Mixed findings.

It came apart very easily, including the main stand pivot! PO's have obviously had it apart before which was where the bad was found. The wiring was seriously bad. Cannot believe it ran and everything worked. Bodge aint the word.

The precious 4/1 headers better than expected but think I will still re chrome.

Motor still to come apart.

This is unlikely to be a fully documented thread but I will do my best with piccies and ask loads of questions of you experts out there.


Tim
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 21, 2019, 10:33:35 AM
That's great news Tim, well done 👍
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Athame57 on January 21, 2019, 11:26:15 AM
I'll be watching with interest! ;)
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Trigger on January 21, 2019, 11:36:04 AM
About time  ;)  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Laverda Dave on January 21, 2019, 12:46:58 PM
Good luck Tim. Back on the road for the spring sunshine ☀
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 21, 2019, 10:37:33 PM
Well I couldn't resist a peep in the motor, so had an hour in the garage.

Problem. PO has for some reason used allen bolts on the cam sprocket (also cap nuts on studs). Can't shift the ones on the sprocket. Should I resort to heat? Any tips on locking motor other than spanner on crank?

The good news is bearings, cam and followers look pretty good  at first glance from my amateur eye.

God knows what cam chain tension issues there will be looking at adjuster.....

Having a nightmate loading images. Will try again when better internet....
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 21, 2019, 10:57:37 PM
Ooooooh, this is just so exciting Tim. Heat them nuts 😀😀😀
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Trigger on January 21, 2019, 11:15:35 PM
Lock it via the fly wheel and heat the bolts as, most people used retainer  ;)

Are you on about domed nuts on the head studs ? should be.
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 21, 2019, 11:40:59 PM
More images I could not load. Will not accept multiples although file size reduced. One at a time then..[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 21, 2019, 11:42:36 PM
More[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 21, 2019, 11:43:44 PM
More of cam[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 21, 2019, 11:45:04 PM
And questionable adjuster.....[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 21, 2019, 11:52:05 PM
Lock it via the fly wheel and heat the bolts as, most people used retainer  ;)

Are you on about domed nuts on the head studs ? should be.
Didn't recall them as domed and stripped a 400 before too. Age!

Enlighten me Trigger on retainer you refer to. As in clutch retainer?
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: taysidedragon on January 22, 2019, 12:04:20 AM
I think Trigger is referring to Loctite or similar.
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Trigger on January 22, 2019, 12:17:50 AM
Lock it via the fly wheel and heat the bolts as, most people used retainer  ;)

Are you on about domed nuts on the head studs ? should be.
Didn't recall them as domed and stripped a 400 before too. Age!

Enlighten me Trigger on retainer you refer to. As in clutch retainer?

They have always been domed on the inside and non domed on the outside head studs. If they are open on the studs inside, then oil runs down the thread of the stud and leaks. I know this as it is my job  ;D ;D ;D

Nut lock, thread lock, stud lock, retainer  ;)
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Bryanj on January 22, 2019, 10:42:34 AM
That adjuster bolts looks like most of the 400 i used to see as if the original broke or got lost and you did get the piece out most people just fitted a standard 6mm setscrew instead of paying for and waiting for the expensive Honda parts to do it right, just pray whoever did it relieved the end threads(ground the diameter down) as they tend to mushroom the inner end which destroys the crankcase thread when you undo it. Can be wiser to wait till you have the crankcases separated so you can file the end of the bolt before winding it out.
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 22, 2019, 12:46:31 PM
Thanks Trig, You do know your job, did we ever doubt it! ;)
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 22, 2019, 12:47:55 PM
That adjuster bolts looks like most of the 400 i used to see as if the original broke or got lost and you did get the piece out most people just fitted a standard 6mm setscrew instead of paying for and waiting for the expensive Honda parts to do it right, just pray whoever did it relieved the end threads(ground the diameter down) as they tend to mushroom the inner end which destroys the crankcase thread when you undo it. Can be wiser to wait till you have the crankcases separated so you can file the end of the bolt before winding it out.
Cheers Bryan,will do.

Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 24, 2019, 10:58:01 PM
Nuts on cam sprocket suitably heated, head off, barrels off. Have to say all looks good at first glance. Nothing measured but promising :)

Can't find clutch nut tool and too impatient to order one and wait, so will modify an old socket with grinder. :P

Post some pics over the weekend if I get chance.

Really loving doing this. It is such a change for a mere curtain engineer!
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Trigger on January 24, 2019, 11:07:39 PM
Nuts on cam sprocket suitably heated, head off, barrels off. Have to say all looks good at first glance. Nothing measured but promising :)

Can't find clutch nut tool and too impatient to order one and wait, so will modify an old socket with grinder. :P

Post some pics over the weekend if I get chance.

Really loving doing this. It is such a change for a mere curtain engineer!

I thought you were a haberdashery engineer  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Sprocket on January 25, 2019, 10:40:49 AM
I'm a couple steps behind you! Saw this on eBay (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-Clutch-Holding-Tool-Centre-Nut-Tool-Set-CB400F-400-Four-400-4-HWT051-/251421804669) and wondered whether or not it's really necessary. The vids I've seen on YouTube seem to suggest you don't need a special tool, just a castellated socket.

Thoughts please, experts?! :D
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 25, 2019, 10:48:21 AM
Castelated socket should work just fine 👍
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Bryanj on January 25, 2019, 10:48:26 AM
The special tool is a castellated socket!
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 25, 2019, 10:55:55 AM
Yes I have a proper Honda one somewhere and will order one if it does not turn up before rebuild. Just impatient and want to do more on the weekend. Its so exciting!!! ::)
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 28, 2019, 10:56:13 PM
Well frame all stripped and everything boxed up for later assesment.

Motor all apart besides 5 head studs. I have done the 2 nut / heat trick on all but these last ones are reluctant. They are quite thin shanked and I do not want to apply too much force and break them..... Think I will try  stud in vice and turn the whole case - (Laverda120's tip I think?) Will apply heat again but worry I may go overboard with too much! Any guidance appreciated.

Edit Ocadians vice tip - ta Julie :D
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Trigger on January 28, 2019, 11:01:29 PM
Well frame all stripped and everything boxed up for later assesment.

Motor all apart besides 5 head studs. I have done the 2 nut / heat trick on all but these last ones are reluctant. They are quite thin shanked and I do not want to apply too much force and break them..... Think I will try  stud in vice and turn the whole case - (Laverda120's tip I think?) Will apply heat again but worry I may go overboard with too much! Any guidance appreciated.

Why do you want to remove them ?
The two nut way will twist the stud if it is well stuck in  ;)
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 28, 2019, 11:11:59 PM
I used the vice method as advised by Ian (Orcadian) to remove the head stud that I mullered the top of trying to remove the nut. Worked well with plenty of diffused heat. But, I left all the others in as couldn't see any reason why they needed to be removed. Double nutting can actually twist the stud along its shaft as it is so long and thinner in the middle. Trying to remove it on the vice, still attached to the top casing is not the easiest manoeuvre you will ever do, trust me, its difficult.
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 29, 2019, 08:20:19 AM
Well frame all stripped and everything boxed up for later assesment.

Motor all apart besides 5 head studs. I have done the 2 nut / heat trick on all but these last ones are reluctant. They are quite thin shanked and I do not want to apply too much force and break them..... Think I will try  stud in vice and turn the whole case - (Laverda120's tip I think?) Will apply heat again but worry I may go overboard with too much! Any guidance appreciated.

Why do you want to remove them ?
The two nut way will twist the stud if it is well stuck in  ;)
Was intending acid dip / paint route and assumed it would be necassary???
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 29, 2019, 08:59:22 AM
Well frame all stripped and everything boxed up for later assesment.

Motor all apart besides 5 head studs. I have done the 2 nut / heat trick on all but these last ones are reluctant. They are quite thin shanked and I do not want to apply too much force and break them..... Think I will try  stud in vice and turn the whole case - (Laverda120's tip I think?) Will apply heat again but worry I may go overboard with too much! Any guidance appreciated.

Why do you want to remove them ?
The two nut way will twist the stud if it is well stuck in  ;)
Was intending acid dip / paint route and assumed it would be necassary???
No Tim, the studs can stay in. You are making fast progress on this strip, have you got a heated garage? 😀😁😁
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 29, 2019, 09:31:38 AM
Small oil rad. Keeps the nuts warm. :P

Things will slow down  now I would think. I have an oportunity of freebe chroming but need to get that away in near future.
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Clem2112 on January 29, 2019, 09:39:11 AM
Unless the long studs have damaged threads, leave them alone.
If they are stuck, the extra torque needed will likely strip the threads from the top case. Unlike the rocker cover studs, the top crankcase ones stay put for years and will have corrosion around the casing joint face.
Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on March 24, 2019, 09:25:37 PM
Couple of hours in garage today.Valves removed. Some piccies.

[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]

Title: Re: 400/4 restoration - it begins at last
Post by: Nurse Julie on March 24, 2019, 09:41:37 PM
👍👍👍
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