Post by: royhall on February 11, 2019, 08:33:23 PM
I have been thinking about doing this rebuild thread for a few months now and following some prompting from a few SOHC members I have decided to go ahead. A few of you may remember the 350F thread from a few years ago and hopefully this will be a similar format. Apologies if it's a bit similar to Davo's recent rebuild of his CL450, but I feel there are enough differences to make it interesting.
The bike. I bought this bike about 18 months ago from a forum member (anyone that knows him well will spot his front garden). It came with a fair pile of documentation to prove it's history which is never a bad thing. The bike has been stood for a great many years and is generally in pretty poor condition. It has also suffered what was reported to be a chain break which smashed the crankcases, but during the rebuild I shall touch a little bit more on that.
I'm not sure how quickly this one will progress as I don't have anywhere near as much time as I did when I rebuilt the 350F but am hoping for a steady progression. The rebuild actually started about 3 months ago and has been well documented in photo's so I shall try to get this thread up to date fairly soon. That's enough writing for now, so here are the pictures of the bike.
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Post by: Woodside on February 12, 2019, 07:06:09 AM
i appreciate the time it takes to put it all together ..thanks
Post by: K2-K6 on February 12, 2019, 08:07:26 AM
Appreciate the effort it takes to document process as well as doing it.
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on February 12, 2019, 08:10:46 AM
Post by: JamesH on February 12, 2019, 09:58:16 AM
Post by: Sgt.Pinback on February 12, 2019, 01:27:15 PM
Will follow this with interrest
Post by: Laverda Dave on February 12, 2019, 01:59:32 PM
Post by: royhall on February 12, 2019, 03:24:59 PM
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Pretty grotty I think. Beats me why we do this to ourselves really. Anyway the bike will remain in the lock-up for now until I can clear my garage of other ongoing projects. After busting a gut to get the engine into the car, it was transported from the car to the garage in a wheelbarrow. I cannot believe how heavy this engine is for a 450 twin, had to roll it onto the bench. Anyway, stripdown time now but that's for the next thrilling episode.
Post by: MrDavo on February 12, 2019, 03:54:05 PM
Quote
Beats me why we do this to ourselves really.
Keeps us off the streets I suppose.
If you have a CB750 engine stand (I have a Trigger one) it will fit straight in as the engine mounting bolt spacing is the same. Now there's an idea for a special, you could have a four pot Bomber (good luck when you get to a corner) or a CB750 with a twin engine... :o :o :o
Post by: royhall on February 12, 2019, 05:09:35 PM
Post by: MrDavo on February 12, 2019, 06:26:44 PM
(https://s5.postimg.cc/t6q2rqi47/IMG_2325.jpg)
Worth another go when you get them off, anyway, though the 4 speeder may just be different, as you say.
Post by: royhall on February 12, 2019, 08:53:52 PM
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Got the big guns on the job set to maximum with the air pressure maxed out. Still would not budge. Used loads of Plus-Gas and a good bit of heat from the blowlamp. Still nothing. Tried using a hammer and centre punch to jar it loose. Not a chance. In the end we used Plus-Gas and loads of heat, then air gun on max whilst I gave it a good bashing with the centre punch and hammer. Bingo, the thing fairly shot off. Ruined the plug but who cares. Victory.
After that little fiasco I gave all the fasteners a good soak in Plus-Gas ready for the strip down. I tipped the engine back over a tray onto some blocks and what came out of it was beyond belief. The smell of that old oil was terrible, it must have been in there for decades. O for click and sniff forums.
The head and barrels came off quite easily but were all a burnt and nasty mess. It had a seized solid exhaust valve on the left cylinder that took a lot of getting out.
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This is the point that I started to get suspicious about this 26,000 mile engine. The barrels had been bored to maximum oversize and were worn out again. I don't feel that this engine is the one the bike was born with. I have a suspicion that at some point in the bikes layup the engine has been swapped for a dead engine as it was only loosely assembled in the frame This is also backed up by the chain break claim. On inspection there is no evidence whatsoever of a chain break inside the casings. The only damage is the break where the engine number was, and there are marks around the area that look like somebody has removed that part of the casing to get rid of the engine number. Very suspicious, but it is what it is.
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You can clearly see the break in the picture but no marks that would have been caused from a whipping chain end. So until next time this is where I am up to.
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Post by: MCTID on February 12, 2019, 11:57:32 PM
I'd finished the motor recently ready to go back into the frame when I was struck down by Gout.......ferking awful.....then whilst leafing through the Haynes Manual I spied a 'throwaway' snippet that said the Motor will only go back into the frame 'without the Rocker Boxes fitted' !!!!!!!!!! Bollox bollox bollox...........but I thought if I have to remove the Rocker Boxes it's only a 10 minute job.....anyway it did go back in with them in place, and I only had to do a bit of jiggery pokery....so onwards and upwards.
Looking forward to seeing your build although I have seen the nearly finished Bomber Motor on the bench.........and a thing of beauty it is.
Onwards and upwards !
Post by: Sgt.Pinback on February 13, 2019, 09:17:44 AM
That will cost a lot (not thnking at the time) and I notced that CB450 parts are even more expensive (and rare) as CB750 K0 parts.
And in the end you will have a nice looking bike with not matching numbers.
Post by: royhall on February 13, 2019, 10:11:57 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 13, 2019, 11:38:26 AM
Sorry to ask that question but is its worth restoring that bike?
That will cost a lot (not thnking at the time) and I notced that CB450 parts are even more expensive (and rare) as CB750 K0 parts.
And in the end you will have a nice looking bike with not matching numbers.
I don't think that's quite true Uli ..I have both UK 10/69 built CB750K0 and 1967 Black Bomber projects and the Bomber parts are much easier to source than proper CB750K0 originals. I have a log of quite a few Bombers, all UK 66-67 bikes ( ...evidently we imported a massive batch in 1966 and it took forever to sell them ...that's why it's rumoured that we never got the sandcast and we only got the diecast in Jan. 1970 because Honda UK got their fingers burned with the Bomber fiasco). Why the hell didn't we just fit loads of 'D' street scrambler kits?
My log shows that the engine and frame numbers of all UK Bombers were miles apart, so, as long as Roy has cases in that wide range, I imagine that's still acceptable. The sandcast community fit different (but correct range) replacements all of the time.
So go for it Roy ...I'm sure you will have a cracking bike at the end of it all to be proud of ... and it will be a genuine UK not a USA import as so many of them are.
Post by: Sgt.Pinback on February 13, 2019, 11:44:30 AM
Sorry for asking and good luck! That will be very interesting to follow.
Post by: Laverda Dave on February 13, 2019, 11:55:09 AM
Not only do we have a documented restoration going on but there's also a 'Who done it' mystery plot as well!
Alan, Haynes are great at the throwaway lines, I had the same thing with the rocker dowls on the cb250rs, 'To remove the rocker shafts first remove the two dowl pins that maybe a tight fit with pliars'. There was no mention of having to use a spark eroder to get them out!
Looking forward to seeing more photos Roy.
Post by: Sgt.Pinback on February 13, 2019, 11:59:48 AM
CB450 E 1026580
Be correct?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 13, 2019, 12:27:26 PM
Frame Engine
1009239 1007281
1010688 1008734
1009411 1006630
1009163 1007210
1017546 1019739
1010723 1008766
Post by: royhall on February 13, 2019, 02:12:28 PM
Thanks for info. I wouldn’t dare, here in Germany I would have more trouble in finding parts or a case.No need to apologise Uli you raised a valid and interesting point. From my point of view I am happy if I could make a small profit after they are finished even though I rarely sell them. I make sure I am not one of the people that will spend 8k restoring a bike worth 4k just so that every detail is correct. Mine are for riding, although only on sunny days as I'm not stupid. ;D
Sorry for asking and good luck! That will be very interesting to follow.
Anyone solved the "Who done it" mystery yet as I aint telling who or how much. ;)
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 13, 2019, 03:08:01 PM
Thanks for info. I wouldn’t dare, here in Germany I would have more trouble in finding parts or a case.No need to apologise Uli you raised a valid and interesting point. From my point of view I am happy if I could make a small profit after they are finished even though I rarely sell them. I make sure I am not one of the people that will spend 8k restoring a bike worth 4k just so that every detail is correct. Mine are for riding, although only on sunny days as I'm not stupid. ;D
Sorry for asking and good luck! That will be very interesting to follow.
Anyone solved the "Who done it" mystery yet as I aint telling who or how much. ;)
It's Rosemary the Telephone Operator
Post by: MrDavo on February 13, 2019, 07:26:31 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHW0m5B6/IMG_3392.jpg)
Big Leigh is 6' 7" and can get a Harley engine into the boot of my car. he's also very good at keeping our place in a taxi queue.
Post by: Bryanj on February 13, 2019, 07:35:02 PM
Post by: royhall on February 13, 2019, 07:37:00 PM
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Ironically the liberal coating of black goo appears to have protected the internals very well. It may not be as bad as I first thought.
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The oil pump didn't get away lightly though. This hole in the screen is a weak point in the pump. The design of the casting behind creates a funnel effect with the oil that concentrates it into a very small area and wears a hole in the screen. Once the hole is there, that allows crud to enter the oiling system which in never a good thing.
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On the other side the alternator cover has been repaired with epoxy and painted. A sure sign that the bike has been over on that side as it punches the gear change lever through the cover right at that point. Now this part is one very rare puppy due to it's exposed location. Stocks of this were used up years ago so may have to get it welded and maybe a ceramic or powder coated finish.
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This was the delights waiting for me in the sump pan. I will be glad to get this apart and all the parts cleaned. This smelly black goo gets onto everything, I think it's been under my finger nails for a week now. For the first time in a while I have started wearing gloves when handling these parts.
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Next adventure is into the gearbox and crank. Should be fun.
Post by: Bryanj on February 13, 2019, 11:33:50 PM
Post by: royhall on February 17, 2019, 11:04:11 AM
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Not too sure yet how I am going to clean these parts, last time I used new engine oil and a clean paint brush. I am a little bit cautious about using anything solvent as it gets into every nook and cranny and will cause wear if I cant get it all out again. Will see how it goes.
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As you can see from the pictures the gears are all looking good with hardly any wear and no broken bits. This looks normal Honda to be honest, good strong gearboxes. The crank is looking pretty gunged up, this is the bit (along with the strange head) that I am most nervous about. The crank does turn very smoothly but all that goo is bound to be inside it. It may need a bit of specialist attention?
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So I will pull it all out and clean everything up then see where I am with it. The gearbox bearings are quite hard to source and are expensive but I would really like to change them whilst I am in there. The bronze bushes will get changed as they are available from CMS. The next instalment will be after the bits are clean and I know more about the condition of the parts.
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As you may be aware I actually started the engine build a few months ago so "by the magic of the internet" it may take me no time at all to get the parts clean and ready for reassembly. Or for those familiar with Blue Peter, it will be a here's one I made earlier moment. ;D
Post by: Bryanj on February 17, 2019, 11:47:07 AM
Post by: royhall on February 17, 2019, 11:47:59 AM
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He also supplied a large file of documents from over the bikes history. This had some very interesting items in it such as a page from Motorcycle news from October 1978 showing the bike for sale. Nice to look over some of the other bikes and the prices. I particularly like the CB500T advert with "Ban forces Sale". Or maybe CB400F "must go overdraft to clear". You just don't see these adverts any more.
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What about old tax disc from the last time it was on the road.
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Or letters from previous owners. Plus there is a lot more paper in there.
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 17, 2019, 12:58:02 PM
Here are a couple of DS ads from early 90's .. Anyone got his original from 1986?
Better resolution here :-
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qpq1uz2bnpv0f6p/AAAz95QXBXWwVjAtUqUhg0-aa?dl=0
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Post by: royhall on February 18, 2019, 08:24:25 AM
I mentioned earlier that I had too many projects on the go to get the Bomber in the garage at the moment. Does anyone else have this same problem, plus I have another lock-up that looks about the same?
CB350F at the back still waiting for me to sort out the smoking on pot 4 issue, GS1000 at the front still waiting for it's tank back from Menno, CB750F2 that is the only bike I keep taxed and tested all year round and ironically it's the only bike that needs tax and test. Next year they will all be free, Hurrah.
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Post by: Laverda Dave on February 18, 2019, 03:26:18 PM
Post by: royhall on February 22, 2019, 07:37:23 AM
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It certainly looks like it's taken a fair few impacts to the front. Can't be a kerb as it should be protected by the frame. After looking into getting it welded up it was suggested that I check the part numbers to see if they are a matched set. And sure enough the top and bottom cases have different part numbers, so after checking the original set, I am using the replacement top with the original bottom. So after a good bit of masking up and fitting scrap bolts in threaded holes the cases were sent for vapour blasting and the rest for bead blasting. These days it's probably better to get it all soda blasted but my guys are local and are very careful. Obviously they need a severe cleaning afterwards to ensure no grit remains. They came up really well.
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Been busy with the scrap plywood offcuts and the jigsaw and made myself an engine stand. Not too shabby and cost nothing.
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Tha alternator cover has not done too well in the past. This is what happens on a 450 when you fall off left hand side. The gear change lever goes straight through the case. These things are super rare as a great many were damaged so stocks are gone. Will keep looking though you never know. My plan is to remove the epoxy repair and get it welded up, then either a ceramic or powder coated chrome finish. Should work okay.
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Whilst I was waiting for the blasting I sorted the carbs out and sent them off to Matt Harper for repair along with all genuine gaskets, jets, needles, and springs. The remainder of parts are good quality pattern such as the floats. Not sure what Matt will find on these as they dont look to be in too good condition and there is some damage to one carb but I have managed to source the correct parts to repair that.
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Next job is the bit I never look forward to, that's masking up and painting the parts. After that it's off to the machine shop to get the required carried out. More soon.
Post by: MrDavo on February 22, 2019, 11:03:38 AM
I had similar problems with the CL450 alternator cover, mine had been attacked by a gear lever too. I couldn’t find the right cover unmolested, but winged it with one off a 500 twin eventually.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 22, 2019, 11:18:25 AM
With almost any other engine I’d be saying ‘oh no you can’t mix crankcases’ but with the unique design of the bomber, as long as you use the bearing caps that came with the top half, I don’t see that it matters. Mine have machined pairs for the outer bearings but not so on the four speed.
I had similar problems with the CL450 alternator cover, mine had been attacked by a gear lever too. I couldn’t find the right cover unmolested, but winged it with one off a 500 twin eventually.
CB250/350K , even though they have the bearing arrangement like the CB450 5-speed are not matched and have separate part numbers. I thought the only Honda's this is not the case with are the models with shell, plain bearings.
Post by: royhall on February 22, 2019, 11:21:21 AM
I used the same guys as you did Dave to get the crank rebuilt and cleaned, D&M Engineering who were sure I could take the crank out of one set of cases and straight into another set. They said it was full of the same black goo that covered most of the engine but all parts were in tolerance and good condition. Glad I had it done as I wasn't going to bother, but that goo would have destroyed it as soon as it was fired up. So money well spent.
As the crank simply hangs from the top crankcase on studs located by a machined cut out, it has no matching machined parts in the lower unlike any of the other shell bearing Honda's. So happy days.
Post by: Bryanj on February 22, 2019, 11:59:38 AM
Post by: royhall on February 22, 2019, 12:32:18 PM
Post by: Laverda Dave on February 22, 2019, 02:57:13 PM
Post by: royhall on March 03, 2019, 09:39:53 AM
The casings, barrels, and head were painted with Simonize VHT silver except for the lower crankcase that was left unpainted. Guess that was a Honda cost saving move? The postman has been busy delivering parts from CMS, Silvers, and eBay. I spent a while checking what was there and writing on the bags what the contents were for. I also sorted them roughly into the correct order of use. See I'm finally learning that forever sorting through a big box of parts looking for one item is frustrating. An hour well spent.
I started the assembly with the top case upside down and got the crank, gearchange barrel and gear clusters into place. I used all new shaft bushes and assembled using Graphegen and oil. For a sophisticated (for the day) engine it is actually a very simple bottom end to assemble. Clearly Honda gave the assembly a lot of thought. You will probably remember that the crank had been previously rebuilt by D&M Engineering so was ready to go straight in, although I took the liberty of generously lubricating it all with the oil can. I found it a bit nervy tightening down the crankshaft as the quoted torques are pretty high and I was afraid of stripping a stud. So much so I checked the torque settings in four different places and tried two torque wrenches in the vice first. All went well in the end though.
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For the sharp eyed amongst you, the bag marked "spare bits" is not bits I forgot to put back in. They were duplicates from the replacement crank cases.
The lower case contains the kickstart mechanism that was a bit fiddly to assemble but not too much swearing. It was all assembled with new circlips and seals, and again with Graphegen and oil. The lower case is basically just a cover and slips over the studs and is located by two dowels. The joint was sealed with a thin coating of clear silicone and tightened down using new stainless nuts and washers. The studs are tightened from both the top and bottom of the cases.
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At this point my home made plywood engine stand comes into play, and a thing of beauty she is to. All's looking good so far, next up is the pistons, barrels, and clutch mechanism.
Post by: Bryanj on March 03, 2019, 10:38:32 AM
Post by: Laverda Dave on March 03, 2019, 11:14:18 AM
Post by: MCTID on March 03, 2019, 12:31:14 PM
Keep up the good work, excellent commentary and great photees......each one worth a 'thousand words'.
Post by: royhall on March 03, 2019, 12:52:15 PM
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Post by: royhall on March 09, 2019, 07:55:12 AM
It would appear from comments made on this forum and others that the Bomber suffers from low oil pressure to the cams. The outcome is usually the failure of the exhaust cam which are now virtually unobtainable. My exhaust cam has suffered with slight pitting on one cam lobe. The repair theory was to fit the larger aluminium bodied oil pump from the later 450's or the 500T. Jensen tested this theory and found that due to the larger diameter pump piston it pushed the connecting rod off centre causing wear. So with that in mind, and the fact that having a garage full of bikes it's never going to see high mileage, I have decided to stick with the standard 450 pump. The early pumps also suffered from poor design around the pick-up that caused oil to be drawn in causing a vortex that wore a hole in the pumps debris screen. My existing pump has this problem.
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I had a look around for a NOS standard pump and couldn't find one so put a "part request" on the Silvers site. I only had to wait a week for the DSS email to say he had one in stock, a bit pricey at £210 but needs must.
Before the pump and clutch can go in I reassembled the gearchange mechanism and springs (very fiddly) and checked they functioned freely. This mechanism is very simple and well thought out, top marks there Honda.
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The pump is a reciprocating type that drives off a large oil fed offset boss on the back of the clutch basket. The pump and the clutch needs to be fitted together as one unit (this is a real bind if you need to access the pump as the entire clutch has to be removed to get at it). Before that started I checked all the clutch components for damage and wear and found them to be in really good order. The clutch plain plates were checked for wear and warping and were also good. New friction plates came from Wemoto and are Vesrah.
I gave the pump boss a good coat of Graphegen and oil before assembly as it may take a while for oil flow to reach that area and I don't want the new pump connecting rod to end up scored. The pump and clutch were assembled and torqued down using all new locking tabs for security. I have also fitted a new clutch push rod as the existing item was badly corroded around the seal area and may have ended up being the cause of a leak. After assembly I dropped the cam chain down off it's crank sprocket and checked that the engine was free to rotate smoothly. All was very good so am well pleased.
(There's my lovely daily rider CB750F2 in the background. She's a babe)
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I found on the strip down that my "low mileage" engine was on its last rebore size that was also worn out. I managed to source another barrel from DK that was on standard size but had rust in one barrel. The eBay price was £60 so I offered £35 and stuck to my guns and got it for £38 so not a bad deal, or so I thought. After very good reviews and a few recommends on this site I decided to go with the Cruzinimage piston kit at plus 0.5mm. This skips an oversize but due to the light rust in one barrel it would give enough meat to clean it up. My engineer rebored the bad barrel first and it didn't clean up so he took it out to plus 1mm and it still didn't clean up. We pressed the liner out and weirdly the rust had gone right through to the outside of the liner. Emailed DK who didn't have another barrel on stock size so refunded my £38 no problem (what a superb outfit they are). So I'm without a barrel. Then like a Knight in shining armour along comes Ash's amazing stash and offers up a barrel for free, many thanks for that Ash. As I now had the piston kit I may as well use it so it bored out lovely to plus 0.5mm.
With the barrel rebored to 1 thou clearance and the piston kit fitted and new gaskets, the barrels went straight on.
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Another weak point on the Bomber (and hence the parts are rarer than rare) is the starter clutch. It appears the clutch back plate is a bit thin and tends to push the rollers out that bends the plate and then it jams. And you don't really want your starter being dragged around at crank speed as it doesn't do it any good and makes a bit of noise. So I gave mine a good looking at and all parts looked straight and wear free so it was assembled onto the crank and tested. Worked spot on. Thought I would pop the new engine sprocket on whilst I was at it, with a new lock ring and bolts for security.
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Looking good so far and no problems that I haven't been able to overcome. I took the precaution of putting lengths of coat hanger wire through the cam chain ends, it would be a shame to have it fall into the engine as it looks like it would be very difficult to fish it out again.
More next time.
Post by: Laverda Dave on March 09, 2019, 10:23:12 AM
We'll done to Ash for coming to the rescue with the barrels to keep the build going.
This is such a great forum with members helping each other out, great stuff 👏.
Post by: JamesH on March 09, 2019, 12:13:48 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 09, 2019, 09:42:00 PM
I was told by a Bomber Guru (who owns quite a few and restored and sold even more) that the 4-speed crank bearings were a carry over from the ones used in the Honda racing engines and that the later 5-speed crank bearings were problematic for the K1 and there were quite a few part number changes before the problem was sorted out.
Hope to pop in for a cuppa (or 'brew' as you guys call it ;D ;D) when myself & Cathy are next over your way.
Post by: royhall on March 10, 2019, 10:15:06 AM
Looking great Roy and fantastic attention to detail and great explanations.Your welcome anytime Ash.
I was told by a Bomber Guru (who owns quite a few and restored and sold even more) that the 4-speed crank bearings were a carry over from the ones used in the Honda racing engines and that the later 5-speed crank bearings were problematic for the K1 and there were quite a few part number changes before the problem was sorted out.
Hope to pop in for a cuppa (or 'brew' as you guys call it ;D ;D ) when myself & Cathy are next over your way.
Post by: royhall on March 16, 2019, 09:47:01 AM
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I considered getting a replacement head but feared that it may be as bad as the one I have. So decision made, I will restore this one. After loads of penetrating oil soak and a good bit of heat the stuck valve gave up and came out. The other three slid out easily. After a total strip and degreasing the head was vapour blasted, it came up really nice.
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Took the head to the local machine shop guy that I use to have the valve guides replaced and the seats re-cut. Whilst it was there he either Helicoiled or fitted brass inserts to the 12 damaged threads. I took a while deciding what to do about the valve guides as there are a number of different items available for this engine. In the end I went to a fair bit of trouble located the correct for the year Bomber items, as you will see later this turned out to be an error.
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One of the guides is radiused up to a sharp edge and this is the correct part for a 1967 Bomber and the one I used, the other has a plain diameter end and this is for the later models.
The guides were fitted and reamed and the seats re-cut. I managed to source 4 new valves that required virtually no lapping in as the re-cut seats were close to perfect. Thats always a relief to me as I find that grinding in job quite boring. I fitted the valves and re-fitted all the torsion bar springs. The first one I found very fiddly to do in such a small space, but after I got it figured out the other three were quite simple. After cleaning and checking the seemingly endless array of cam chain guide wheels I refitted the parts to the head.
Now were at the point where I forgot to take the pictures, sorry.
I fitted the head using a genuine Honda gasket and oil seals, and torqued it down in stages using new nuts and washers. The cam cover studs look to be at an angle, they aren't it's a weird optical illusion in that picture.
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That is one very tall engine. I have a fairly large monitor on my PC and that picture still needs scrolling to see it all.
The problem with the stripped threads arose from the cam covers being held with 8 plain bolts. The constant removal of the cam covers has simply worn out the threads. As some of the other threads are a bit worn plus the problem of Helicoils coming out with the bolts, I decided to come up with a different solution. In the end I obtained some extra long 6mm stainless grub screws which I screwed into the head to check the lengths. The two sides are different lengths due to the fitting of a breather plate on the intake side. After bottoming them out I checked they were all the same lengths then removed the and cut them down one side at a time.
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You will see the finished idea in pictures later on in the build but basically I can hold the stud in place with an allen key whilst I undo a nut with a spanner. That way the thread in the head is not being used and I can easily change a stud if required. This fix will probably upset the purists but it needs to be functional first, then being correct is a second consideration to me. If it's worn out it's worn out, and at least this way I save the engines correct head from the scrap heap.
More soon.
Post by: K2-K6 on March 16, 2019, 10:00:46 AM
Impressed with how flat and perfectly sealed that original head gasket face was in the first picture above.
Post by: royhall on March 16, 2019, 10:11:18 AM
Post by: Laverda Dave on March 16, 2019, 10:54:56 AM
That is one tall engine! The Laverda triple engine is very tall and is nicknamed 'the block of flats', the Honda engine is just as tall! A Jota is also known as the world's fastest lorry due to its height and weight!
Keep posting updates.
Post by: royhall on March 17, 2019, 09:04:41 AM
Note that the head hold down nuts are just normal full nuts with steel washers except for the two on the right hand side. These two are domed nuts with copper sealing washers as the two right hand drillings are used as pressurised oil supply tubes to supply the cams with lubrication.
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I don't have much time today so I shall continue another day. Cheers.
Post by: MrDavo on March 17, 2019, 10:48:09 PM
The CMS online parts book shows, like your bike, two domed nuts and six plain, quite why and when my bike got eight domed ones is lost in the mists of time, however as long as it has the right nuts on the two oil feed studs, which it has, as long as the other six aren’t bottomed out (hard to check) there shouldn’t be a problem.
Post by: royhall on March 18, 2019, 03:02:35 PM
I worried after reading the last post, I can’t check right now (I’m up a French Alp) but I’m pretty sure that my CL450 has 8 of the domed nuts holding the head down.Don't panic Dave. Mine had eight rusty dome nuts on as well when I got it. Some people fit them because they look good but that is not standard. Only the right hand stud holes carry oil so the others are okay with a plain steel washer and plain nuts. From memory I think all the studs protrude through by the same amount. You did fit copper washers under the two right hand side nuts didn't you?
The CMS online parts book shows, like your bike, two domed nuts and six plain, quite why and when my bike got eight domed ones is lost in the mists of time, however as long as it has the right nuts on the two oil feed studs, which it has, as long as the other six aren’t bottomed out (hard to check) there shouldn’t be a problem.
Post by: MrDavo on March 18, 2019, 05:04:17 PM
You did fit copper washers under the two right hand side nuts didn't you?
Oh yes, and checked that oil was coming up the studs.
Good to see my bike isn’t the only fashion victim, it was probably during its 1970’s metallic purple and ape hangers phase.
Post by: royhall on March 24, 2019, 10:01:27 AM
When the bike arrived it was badly fitted with a starter motor from a later model, K1 onwards. The original motor for the K0 is a Kukasan item that is longer in the body and completely unavailable. After the K0 the upper crankcase was modified to take the shorter bodied starter. I considered stripping the rear casting off the motor and having two extended aluminium legs welded on. After some thought I decided to leave the motor stock in case it ever required changing, so I made up an extended mounting plate just to see how it looked. I don't think it came out too badly so I have decided to go with it.
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The original starter drive chain was so stretched and loose that there is evidence on the casing where it has been making contact. Another show of how poor the maintenance has been on this engine and how the low mileage on the odometer does not tie up with the wear in the engine. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am sure this engine does not belong in this bike and the engine number was deliberately snapped off due to this.
After a long search I came up with a NOS starter chain and paid a hefty price for it, £80. I was going to get a length of the correct size chain and a soft link and make one up but this popped up before I had a chance to do it.
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Before fitting the stator I gave it a good clean as it was covered in the same black goo that had covered the engine. Whilst cleaning it I found that the wiring was in a terrible state with bodged repairs around the rubber sealing block. I consulted Ash (our resident electrical expert) who suggested I go with a later item that also has encapsulated coils. The plug wiring would be different but that can be modified further on in the build.
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Good old DK came through with a good stator with good wiring at a decent price. To be honest DK seem to be awash with later 450 parts but a bit low on actual Bomber bits. Anyway it fit perfectly first time so looks like Ash's idea is a good one.
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After getting the stator case on I found an issue with the NE gasket set I was using. The gasket is too big on the outside leaving an unsightly lip that will need to be carefully cut off with a scalpel, the inside of the gasket matches the castings correctly. Not good enough really and involves extra work, I am hoping that the other gaskets are okay and this was just a single gasket problem.
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Post by: royhall on March 24, 2019, 11:57:14 AM
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It's a very awkward piece to hold securely without damaging the paint, so what I did was screw it to the top of the workbench with a couple of wood screws. I found a drill that would fit snugly down the grease hole to gauge the correct angle to drill it at.
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I then carefully drilled and tapped it to 8mm and fitted the new nipple with some thread lock.
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The clutch lifter mechanism, like the neutral switch, is also in direct line of all the crud from the drive chain. Fortunately Honda fitted a good body seal to the back of the mechanism to keep it out. So after a good clean and check of the lifter it was packed with new clean grease and then a new seal fitted, and also a few pumps with the grease gun to completely fill the lubrication passages. The cover was then re-fitted to the engine.
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There is a vital bracket on the rear of the engine that holds the stator cable in place. It is used to hold the cable after the neutral switch to stop it contacting the drive chain. This was missing on the bike when I got it but I managed to find one on eBay in a bag of random bits. The bag also contained a missing clip for under the engine that holds the starter cable in place so was well worth the £12 I paid for it. The clips were pretty rusty so a member on here (wont name them as they will get mobbed with requests) kindly replated them for me. As I say, a small part but vital to the reliability of the machine.
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Post by: royhall on March 24, 2019, 12:14:39 PM
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The clutch cover and centrifugal oil filter cover were then fitted. It now became clear that the gasket problem was going to be all of them, so any other gaskets that are required I shall check out and get genuine Honda items as required. I will trim these two but no more, it just isn't worth the effort for a few extra gaskets. The oil filter cover is looking a little battered and bruised but I am going to leave it. A little bit of patina on a 50 years old bike can't do any harm.
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I'm sorry NE but these gaskets are a mess, what does it take to buy some genuine Honda gaskets and check the ones you make are the same. Not too hard I would have thought. I just wonder how many bikes are out there with these gaskets fitted like this. Never mind I will just have to fit a new scalpel blade and spend 30 minutes trimming them down.
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The next part of the build is to refit the cams and cam chain. As I have not done this type of cam layout before it will be a case of following the manual carefully. I'm sure it will be perfectly simple as Honda appear to have designed this engine with easy assembly in mind. After all you don't want to hold up your production lines with difficult to assemble parts.
Post by: royhall on March 31, 2019, 04:46:01 PM
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From a recommend on the forum I have contacted Newman Cams in Kent who have offered to repair the damage for me. They are going to regrind both cam lobes and either regrind the followers or weld a pad onto them and reprofile. So things are going to be held up again whilst the cams are returned. My fault as I should have checked the cams sooner.
The fuel tank is now ready to ship off to Menno for strip/lining/repaint. But first I had to remove a cap head screw and two hex self tappers that had been dropped into the tank and had jammed inside. The cap head was lodged between the outer and inner skin near the outlet spigot with the other two screws jammed underneath. Strangely they defied all efforts to get then out and were really in there tight. I had to make a special tool from a piece of stainless bar that I could use to get under the cap head and turn it with Mole grips. Thankfully it worked great and the screw popped out and released the other two. Couldn't get a photo of the screws as they were too deep inside the tank. The tank looks to be in pretty good condition if you ignore the paint, should turn out lovely.
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Also had a few parts back from chroming. I am not allowed to say on the forum who the chromer is as he does not want to be mobbed with work, think he may be semi retired. So sorry I usually like to pass on details of people who I have found to be good but this time I'm sworn to secrecy.
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At the minute I am trying to get the fuel tank completely finished and get all the pieces of the exhaust system in place. Two of the more expensive items out of the way.
Got some work to do on another engine for a while now so I will continue with this thread when Newman Cams send back the exhaust cam.
Post by: Laverda Dave on March 31, 2019, 05:23:54 PM
Chrome looks great. The plater I use has asked me not to reveal his details as he does bike chrome as a hobby from his main bulk order work.
I look forward to the next instalment.
Post by: royhall on April 06, 2019, 09:14:34 AM
Exhaust cams came back yesterday From Newman Cams. It took a total of 8.5 weeks to do the job after I had been promised 2-3 weeks at the outset. That said I think it was worth the wait as they have done an excellent job. I think it may have been easier if I had heeded the warning to ask for Mike Newman as advised by Laverda 120, instead I got Ken Newman who appears to operate in a state of complete chaos. Anyway we got there in the end. Job total including return post was £98, so well pleased with that as well. They reground both cam lobes and both followers for that price.
They now need a really good clean down all the oil galleries to remove any grinding debris that's bound to be in there. As I don't have a brush that tiny it will be lots of carb cleaner and compressed air I think
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Whilst they were away I spent a morning trimming down the dodgy NE gaskets that were protruding past the castings. It was a very slow tedious job with a new scalpel blade as they are next to painted surfaces. So not wanting to repeat this experience I checked the other gaskets still to be used and put them in the bin. I now have genuine Honda gaskets for the rest of the build. So that's yet another thing to check before starting the job, appears you can't really trust any pattern parts anymore. I thought the quality may have got better with greater demand but the opposite appears to be happening. There's an ex forum member sat up there on his cloud laughing his socks off. ;D Good old Bitsa.
I'm going to have to do a bit of reading up before I attempt to fit the cams as it's a bit of a strange arrangement. Can't be that hard to do though as Honda managed to do it at production line speed.
Sometime before Easter I am going to bring the rest of the bike from the lock-up and get it stripped down. After packing the tank off to Menno I was looking at having a go at the rest of the paintwork myself, but I was having a look at it yesterday and now I'm not so sure. Menno has given me some good advice along with a paint code, but I feel another large box to Germany coming on shortly. Ash is kindly repairing the very rare and hard to get Elephant Horn for me at the moment, any luck with it Ash and thanks for your help. Hopefully it will look like this when finished.
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Post by: Laverda Dave on April 06, 2019, 10:25:31 AM
I went to visit the DS museum last Tuesday for the first time, I do like the rugged look of the black bombers, maybe I should sell the Jota and downsize to something a bit more manageable and cheaper to run.
Personally, I would send all the paint to Menno I don't think anyone can match his quality of work especially when combined with piki's decals.
Post by: royhall on April 06, 2019, 10:40:36 AM
Glad you got the Cams back at last Roy. They have done a nice job, shame about the 8 week wait though! It certainly depends who you get I think, when the cb250rs blew up I sent the damaged cam to Newmans on the Tuesday and it was back with me on the Thursday! Worth the wait though for what you got back and the price.Okay you talked me out of it, just looking for an excuse to find a big box. ;D Wouldn't mind a Jota myself, but out of my price range now.
I went to visit the DS museum last Tuesday for the first time, I do like the rugged look of the black bombers, maybe I should sell the Jota and downsize to something a bit more manageable and cheaper to run.
Personally, I would send all the paint to Menno I don't think anyone can match his quality of work especially when combined with piki's decals.
Post by: Bryanj on April 06, 2019, 11:00:13 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 06, 2019, 02:01:33 PM
Interested to see what type finish you choose on the silver painted cycle parts. I got a 'NOS in Honda box' front mudguard from Japan for my Bomber and the paint finish looks nothing like that on the 'show pony' restoration you mostly see with clear coated finish on top of a silver base-coat. The NOS guard has a flat satin like finish.
Post by: royhall on April 06, 2019, 02:16:27 PM
Post by: sye on April 06, 2019, 02:25:16 PM
Post by: royhall on July 04, 2019, 07:29:17 AM
I managed to get the exhaust cams and speedo drive gear together and assembled into the head. Used Graphogen and oil on the cam bearings to give it a chance whilst the oil reaches that high up into the engine. The oil also has to fill some quite large cavities on it's way to reaching the cams so may be a while waiting for forced lubrication. Looks like a new cam now Newmans have done the do.
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The inlet side I am not so lucky. This is a really strange problem, the bearing caps on the right hand side have a cast on marker for setting the cam timing. For some unknown reason some plonker has seen fit to file off the mark, why would someone do that? So once again Ash has saved the day and is lending me the cap from his bomber engine so I can re-mark my cap.
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What I shall do is fit Ash's cap and measure down from a fixed point then re-fit my cap and measure back from the point and scribe a line (does that make sense?). Including the packing and postage time this daft little problem has set the project back nearly 2 weeks. Weird the things that pop up on these old bikes.
Having got past the marker issue I got the inlet cam fitted okay. Now for the part I have not been looking forwards to, fitting the cam chain. If not already done, it is essential to fit wires to both ends of the cam chain and tie them off somewhere. If the chain should fall into the engine it's a top end strip down to retrieve it as it's a long way down to the crankshaft (unless you get very lucky with a long flexible magnet thingy).
The cam chain passes over no less than 7 guide wheels so it's pretty complex and awkward. The chain is best riveted from the inlet side as there is more room, so the chain needs to be lowered off the crankshaft and pulled through enough to pull it over the wheels to the back of the engine. The cam adjusters need to be slackened off to give the most space to turn the cams. With the crank set to the LT mark (left piston TDC) the cams need to be set to the markers on the right hand sides. The inlet cam turned by hand to it's mark but the exhaust cam required grips to turn it as it was coming onto the lobe at the correct position. The chain then has to be teased into a position where it can be riveted and a soft link rivet pressed into place. I fitted the like without the side plate and turned the engine until I could get the rivet tool in (not easy).
Having managed to set the chain link I turned the engine to back round to LT to check that the timing was correct. To my relief I got it first time.
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That's the worst part over with, Honda must have had an easy way set up to do that job on a production basis. I thought I was on the home run with this engine but little did I know that more problems were lurking in the shadows. One day maybe it will get finished who knows?
Post by: royhall on July 05, 2019, 08:26:04 AM
After going through the valve setting procedure, it was evident that the right side exhaust valve had a clearance problem. It appears that there is just not enough adjustment to set the valve, maybe too much was removed during the cam install?
I won't discuss this further here as it's already been well covered on another thread. http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,19423.0.html (http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,19423.0.html)
Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 05, 2019, 07:27:11 PM
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,19495.msg172509/topicseen.html#new
Post by: royhall on July 06, 2019, 10:07:32 AM
What did you do about the various camchain idlers/tensioners Roy .. did you replace or refurbish them? (see my post)I cleaned and checked all the chain wheels, and they all looked in good condition so they went back in. I thought I was going to have to replace some of them as they were black and cruddy but they cleaned up a treat. Teeth were good and no play in the bushes, so they just got a good oiling. That was a bit of a relief as they are not all available, and what are available are expensive.
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,19495.msg172509/topicseen.html#new (http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,19495.msg172509/topicseen.html#new)
Post by: royhall on September 12, 2019, 07:48:41 AM
Post by: royhall on September 14, 2019, 09:44:43 AM
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For now I used the manual button on top of the solenoid to activate the starter. On pressing the button there was nothing but a slight clunk and the engine did not turn. Fearing the worst, I checked the battery with the multimeter and thankfully only 10.9V showing. The battery was goosed. This time I connected to a car battery with a good charge and also connected the solenoid cables. This time the engine spun over really well, and the solenoid also works. After a short while oil could be seen at all the cams and the starter rotor, plus no oil leaks.
The plan now was to fit the cam covers and try one more time to check the covers for leaks. It was a bit of a struggle getting the inlet cover on as a few threads had been repaired and not all were totally square to the gasket face. I managed okay in the end though. One last run on the starter to prove the covers and the starter clutch is now refusing to bite. This was tested before I stripped the engine, so foolishly, was not stripped and checked during the rebuild.
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Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of this bit as my phone went dead and I forgot about it later (getting old, you know how it is).
On removing the starter cover there was a bit of a mess. The sprocket on the starter is not fixed to the motor shaft and is free to slide around. To stop it coming off, the cast cover has an endfloat piece (pipe like) cast into it that just allows the sprocket a few thou float. Unknown to me, the gasket for the cover was a lot thinner than the original, 40 thou to 24 thou. This had allowed the boss to press hard against the starter sprocket and resulted in the boss end actually melting. OOPS.
Whilst I was in there I pulled the rotor back off and rebuilt the starter clutch. I'm glad I did as the rollers had flats and the springs were all different lengths, also the anti magnetic back plate was worn. After a good clean I replaced the worn parts and reassembled the clutch.
The cover was repaired by filing off the melted bits along with the new mushroom shape that had developed to get back to good metal. I then did a dry fit with the sprocket on the starter and use feeler gauges to measure the gasket gap. I then removed about a further 8 thou with the file to give the correct gasket gap whilst checking it stayed parallel to the gasket face with a depth micrometer. The replacement gasket was genuine Honda in a sealed bag and was still 24 thou so I don't really know what was going on there. My suspicion is the the starter is off a K3 and that may have either a different cover or more likely a thicker gasket (the bit of the gasket I scraped off on stripdown was 40 thou). I may never know for sure but at least it's sorted now.
All back together again and just got to run the test again to make sure all is well. Hopefully this afternoon.
UPDATE. The engine now spins over on the starter super fast. No oil leaks to report. ;D
Post by: royhall on September 14, 2019, 02:56:07 PM
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Bit of a crusty mess I think you would agree. This is how the tank looks today. Well pleased with it.
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These are my favourite parts of a rebuild. Makes no difference that the tank wont be going onto the bike for ages, it's like a shot in the arm.
Post by: royhall on September 14, 2019, 03:03:01 PM
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There may be a break in proceedings now whilst I reassemble the engine on my CB350F so that I can make room in the garage for the Bombers rolling frame.
Post by: royhall on November 16, 2019, 09:25:20 AM
Finished the other jobs so the back end of the garage is now clear meaning I now have a chance to get back to the Bomber. My storage lock-up is only about a half mile away so decided to just push it back to the garage. It was amazing the interest it got from people in the streets, I met an old guy that restores BSA's that I had never met or heard of that lives in the next Avenue. He was round at the garage for nearly two hours. Really nice chap, and he's going to help out with a few items.
Now back in the garage the old girl is looking a bit past her best (sorry about the thumb in photo 1).
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It should be fairly easy to take apart as it looks to be just loosely assembled, plus I have spent weeks soaking everything in Plus-Gas.
An hour and a half later it's packed away in boxes and bags.
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From the look of the parts, this one is going to take quite a time to complete. When i've finished packing it all away, I am going to take it one chunk at a time. I am going to start with the wheels as they require re-chroming, new parts, polishing, and wheel building so I would like to get that aspect underway quickly.
Post by: royhall on November 16, 2019, 09:52:45 AM
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I have got an OEM replacement rim for the rear wheel as the corrosion on the old one is just too far gone. The front rim is slightly rusty but should be okay for a re-chrome. Unfortunately the rear hub is also scrap as there is extensive cracking around the cush drive areas of the casting. Three out of the four bosses are cracked. So that's the whole wheel that's scrap, hub/spokes/rim. I guess it's to be expected on a 52 year old bike.
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Looks like the search is on for a new rear hub. I need to research a bit more but I think they are the same on all the CB450K models plus the 500T so am hoping the search wont be too hard. But I think I will start with our very own Mr Ashimoto as he appears to have a good stash of Bomber bits so will PM him.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 16, 2019, 12:24:25 PM
Did you note that Bomber spoke nipples are made of plated brass .. Mick (kettle738) told me about that.
Post by: royhall on November 17, 2019, 08:55:21 AM
Post by: royhall on November 22, 2019, 09:42:18 AM
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After a fruitless search for replacements that were either rebuildable or new replicas I had resigned myself to settling for more modern units although they will spoil the look of the bike. I had a look at Hagon who do a shock that looks close but there are internet reports that they foul the chain guard so they are no use.
As we were going to the NEC bike show last Monday, and Hagon have a stall there, I decided to take the shocks and see what they said about it. They had some very helpful people on that stall who said they could build a shock from stock pieces that would not foul the chain guard and would look correct. So at £263 a pair I decided to give them a go, they even asked for my weight to set the spring rate correctly.
That was on the Monday morning, Wednesday afternoon a package arrived containing the shocks. They are the correct length and look correct. They even left off the Hagon stickers at my request. What do you think?
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That's some kind of top service in my opinion. Bit more than I really wanted to pay, but not too bad for a pair of custom built shocks. They are built from polished stainless so they should last well. Even the top black shroud is stainless. Can't try them on the bike to check they really don't foul the chain guard as it's in a thousand pieces but they do look and measure very close to the originals. If the worst happens and they do foul I shall modify the chain guard. Going to be a big scrap weigh in soon.
Post by: taysidedragon on November 22, 2019, 11:11:43 AM
Post by: Spitfire on November 22, 2019, 11:42:41 AM
Cheers
Dennis
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 23, 2019, 04:28:03 PM
I do have others but it will be a week before I can go back and investigate, as I am away on business most of this week. I would hang fire on sourcing another though as I suspect this may be a common problem. I do have a 500T one somewhere at work too IIRC.
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Post by: royhall on November 23, 2019, 04:39:10 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 30, 2019, 04:42:29 PM
So that's both of us looking for a rear hub now unless they can be welded. :(
I will ask on the Bomber Facebook group if this is a known common fault. My guess is that loads of them from UK bikes with decent mileages will be the to same to some degree. My CB500T one was from a USA import bike my mate got from Summerbud. I bet loads are cracked and nobody has noticed ... the cracks are very difficult to distinguish from casting flash marks in some cases.
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Post by: royhall on November 30, 2019, 06:25:53 PM
They can't be vastly different as I know it's possible to fit a 500T engine straight into a bomber. Maybe they beefed it up at some point to stop the cracking.
Been watching one all week advertised as cb450/cl450/500T that the seller says has no cracks, he's also sure it will fit so I have put a sniper bid on. Finishes in 16 minutes so I may be the owner of more scrap iron.
Cheers.
Post by: Laverda Dave on November 30, 2019, 07:35:21 PM
Post by: Trigger on November 30, 2019, 07:59:57 PM
Just had a scan of the picture of the hub and those cracks look like they were made when the bushes were pressed in :o
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 30, 2019, 11:15:05 PM
What are they like on sprocket position as it may just be the bearing retainer sleeve is different. Loads of people are selling 500T hubs as 450, is it just the K0 that's different to the rest. have you got a later 450 hub you can check against the K0.
They can't be vastly different as I know it's possible to fit a 500T engine straight into a bomber. Maybe they beefed it up at some point to stop the cracking.
Been watching one all week advertised as cb450/cl450/500T that the seller says has no cracks, he's also sure it will fit so I have put a sniper bid on. Finishes in 16 minutes so I may be the owner of more scrap iron.
Cheers.
If you notice Roy the 500T doesn't have the ribs on the outside like the Bomber (see red arrow in attached photo).I don't have any 450 5-speed hubs to compare but I can have a closer inspection of the differences in the 500T tomorrow.
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 30, 2019, 11:28:32 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 01, 2019, 07:55:11 AM
I posted originally that below may have been pattern but I guess just corroded Genuine parts and hence a changed CMSNL part no.
CB450K0 Bomber 'imperfect alternative' (I guess it means they are corroded by their description)
https://www.cmsnl.com/products/imperfect/hub-rear-wheel_OC-0001.2982/#.XeNwhIP7TIU
CB450K1 'imperfect alternative'
https://www.cmsnl.com/products/imperfect/hubrr-wheel_OC-0001.4050/#.XeNw9oP7TIU
Also checked and one spacer is Bomber 283 part on the K1 and the other side is a 292 part which would figure.
Post by: Arch stanton on December 01, 2019, 08:09:17 AM
I have both front & rear hubs. Complete with brake plates, spindles, spacers & adjusters. I am in Garstang.
Regards.
Sean.
Post by: royhall on December 01, 2019, 10:02:06 AM
I just checked and the K1 5-Sp hub and CB500T rear hubs are both ---292--- part numbers. Original was -000 but superseded to -010 500T part. for K1You are correct Ash. They moved the sprocket over at the beginning of the 5 speed. Just taken me 2 hours to establish that, then logged on to let you know to find you had already figured it out. ;D Strangely I have seen an article some time ago about fitting a 500T engine into a bomber. They said it went straight in without any other modifications, must be eating drive chains. Unfortunately I won the auction last night so we probably now have yet another useless rear hub, only cost £26 including postage so not too bad. You never know it may be a bomber hub, not.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 01, 2019, 10:13:42 AM
I just checked and the K1 5-Sp hub and CB500T rear hubs are both ---292--- part numbers. Original was -000 but superseded to -010 500T part. for K1You are correct Ash. They moved the sprocket over at the beginning of the 5 speed. Just taken me 2 hours to establish that, then logged on to let you know to find you had already figured it out. ;D Strangely I have seen an article some time ago about fitting a 500T engine into a bomber. They said it went straight in without any other modifications, must be eating drive chains. Unfortunately I won the auction last night so we probably now have yet another useless rear hub, only cost £26 including postage so not too bad. You never know it may be a bomber hub, not.
Sean may have one for you possibly? ... Decided that one of the ones I have (not photod and still at my stash) has such a tiny crack I think Trigger is correct and it's been done when the cush drive has been pushed in. Think I will just use it on mine after Trigger has looked at it.
Post by: royhall on December 01, 2019, 11:04:22 AM
Post by: mick on December 01, 2019, 12:02:34 PM
Post by: royhall on December 01, 2019, 12:52:08 PM
Hi Roy Arch Stanton & Sean are the same person :-), cheers Mick.Ha. Well I never.
Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
Post by: mattsz on December 01, 2019, 03:11:41 PM
Hi Roy Arch Stanton & Sean are the same person :-), cheers Mick.Ha. Well I never.
Love this forum - it's a wealth of information! ;)
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 02, 2019, 08:45:54 AM
Hi Roy Arch Stanton & Sean are the same person :-), cheers Mick.Ha. Well I never.
Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
Sorry Roy .. I should have been more specific...just like to call members by their proper names when I can ... a seeming impossibility with Hairygit though ... I reckon he's called Rumpelstiltskin ;D ;D
Any news on the hubs from Sean? ... You are still welcome to a free slightly cracked one ... I reckon yours is far worse than the 3 I have. Feedback from Facebook group is that unless crack goes through hub it will be OK and there are lots out there being used that have slight cracking ... not that I am happy with that or agree but just reporting back from another group.
Post by: royhall on December 04, 2019, 07:10:08 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on December 04, 2019, 07:56:50 AM
Hi Roy Arch Stanton & Sean are the same person :-), cheers Mick.Ha. Well I never.
Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
Sorry Roy .. I should have been more specific...just like to call members by their proper names when I can ... a seeming impossibility with Hairygit though ... I reckon he's called Rumpelstiltskin ;D ;D
Any news on the hubs from Sean? ... You are still welcome to a free slightly cracked one ... I reckon yours is far worse than the 3 I have. Feedback from Facebook group is that unless crack goes through hub it will be OK and there are lots out there being used that have slight cracking ... not that I am happy with that or agree but just reporting back from another group.
You're probably right about usage there Ash. Given that so many observed here display it then it's likely that most of them are in similar state from usage.
They look like they survive as the loads are separated for different functions and preventing the cracks from propagating further than exhibited. The sprocket and chain load is going directly in through the bearing housing from it's spigot ultimately directly to be supported by the wheel spindle, so avoiding the cracks. The brake liner also misses the load path as torque is enacted outside of the cracked site and directly into the spokes.
Leaving just the drive to go through the cush drive sites, even that is "self supporting" to reasonable level as all the bolts flanges to the sprocket keep the load into the cush drive rubbers effectively in the same plane rather than the rubbers having to accommodate anything outside perpendicular to the sprocket face.
Cracks are never going to look competent, but as most of the wheels haven't broken it seems the design does ultimately cope with what it's doing.
Post by: royhall on December 04, 2019, 08:13:40 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on December 04, 2019, 11:28:23 AM
From an integrity point of view, it would seem that many examples could be heading for "exhibition use" only given what you and Ash are finding.
If they modded the CB500 production to better protect against initiation and propogation of those cracks, could you machine the brake plate outer by the dimension of the additional sprocket offset, and so move the hub over to align the sprocket correctly? Then make a bespoke spacer for sprocket side to reinstate overall dimensions, finally lace the rim up offset to correct chassis alignment.
I worked at a place that ran an aircraft with a cracked main wingspar, this was in the section that passed through the fuselage centre. They had applied strain guages to monitor if the crack was getting worse as part of pre-flight inspections :D
[attachimg=1]
Think it was this one from memory, a Vickers Varsity.
Post by: royhall on December 04, 2019, 11:48:16 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 05, 2019, 03:06:01 PM
Post by: royhall on December 05, 2019, 09:48:37 PM
Post by: royhall on December 24, 2019, 09:21:21 AM
Charles royhall Dickens, Christmas 2019
Post by: MCTID on December 24, 2019, 01:20:33 PM
Post by: royhall on April 19, 2020, 10:48:26 AM
As you may remember I had just finished the engine and got the bike into the garage for stripping. Although I had spent weeks spraying all the fasteners with PlusGas, I was surprised at how easily it came apart. I have long suspected that this bike was a loosely built collection of parts that don't really belong together and this carries on the idea.
The forks are looking like a bit of a challenge so thought I would start there. Although it's all a mess it appears that everything is there and correct.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Not much evidence that these forks have been apart in the last half century so am expecting fun and games. I have a two prong tool for removing the seal holders from the rebuild of the 350F so that should be okay. First job is to get rid on the rancid fork oil and strip the stanchions out of the yokes.
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
It all put up the usual fight but came apart okay. So just the simple task of dismantling the fork legs and have a look what lies inside. I'm not expecting the internals to be too bad as they have had oil in them all this time.
[attachimg=5]
The fork legs are looking a bit gone so maybe a trip to Philpotts coming on there.
Post by: royhall on April 19, 2020, 11:09:35 AM
[attachimg=1]
Well, I think I spoke too soon. Just whip off the seal holders with the two prong tool, not a chance. I got them in the vice and gave it plenty and they won't budge. I tried loads of heat from the blowlamp and still they won't give up. Tried an extension bar on the tool and the tool gave up. Going to have to come up with something homemade to get these sods to shift. After an hour or two in the garage I have come up with a tool suggested by Ash.
[attachimg=2]
If that doesn't shift the little blighters I really don't know what will.
[attachimg=3]
I had to have a rethink on the screws in the tool. Although it was now located on all four of the attachment points the force required just bent the screws. So I made some better screws and decided to try a bit of a trick. I repeatedly heated the part with the blowlamp and quickly quenched it in water. I did that several times and Bingo off they came. Unfortunately during the wrestling match one seal holder ended up damaged.
The rest of the forks came apart easily with the internals all being in good condition and okay to re-use. Unfortunately I cant say the same for one of the stanchions. I'm not really sure how it managed to get that rusty, but it is way beyond saving.
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Once again Ash came through with some replacement bits and kept the project on track. Thanks Ash.
Post by: royhall on April 19, 2020, 11:39:34 AM
For now some shiny bits have returned. As a reminder the wheels looked like this. In the end every part of this entire wheel was scrap.
[attachimg=1]
After a good look at the rims it was decided that the rust was in places so deep that they were scrap. Shame really as the rear rim was the correct DID item with the stamping on the inner of the rim. These have not been available for ages. The front rim is a pattern part that was also the wrong size, so that can go in the bin. After a fruitless search I decided to go with new K1 rims from CMS although these are DID they have the stamping on the side of the rim. Strangely the front and rear rims are the same size.
Although I decided to go with polished stainless spokes, I didn't really want the alloy polishing to a mirror finish as that was not how Honda sent them out in 1967. As a lover of bling that was a really difficult decision for me as instinct makes me polish everything to within an inch of it's life. But I was talked into leaving them a bit dull so I hope it turns out okay. The wheels went to Alan @ Southport Wheelbuilders and this is what came back.
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
I'm very pleased with the way they turned out. After a good clean the replacement rear hub actually doesn't look like it has any cracks, so job done. I decided to again go with the Avon Roadrider 2 tyres mainly due to having the same tyres on all my other classics and I have got to liking them. I fitted 90/90-18 on the front and 100/90-18 on the rear.
The front hub was the original that was on the bike. Except for the brake plates that front hub is the only part retained from both wheels, all the rest was scrap.
[attachimg=5]
More soon I hope.
Post by: SPR on April 19, 2020, 01:25:51 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 19, 2020, 01:47:16 PM
Funnily enough I have been rebuilding my Bomber forks (& CB72 ones) during the lockdown.
My whole bike was literally a ton of parts mixed up with CB250 and CB77 parts found in a garden in loads of plastic containers. Any chance you can do me a close up shot of the fork top bolts and the rubber parts of the forks .. I now know where the two chromed discs go, as I wasn't sure if they were CB72 or Bomber !!! Pretty sure I have everything but it was an absolute jigsaw puzzle nightmare piecing everthing together.
The top bolts are lised as a CB72 part ---268--- in my parts book but I have seen ---283--- parts listed on eBay .. so not sure what the difference is .. so if you could let me have the top nut hex size that will be great. Also can you check if the handlebar holders are chromed or polished alloy please?
Post by: royhall on April 19, 2020, 03:54:37 PM
Ash. Have taken a few photo's for you. The top bolts are 26mm AF, and the handlebar clamp stems are chromed steel.
[attachimg=1]
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Post by: royhall on April 25, 2020, 10:50:18 AM
Post by: SPR on April 25, 2020, 11:01:41 AM
Just been adding a further update to the thread and suffered what is a real problem with the forum software. I'm hoping somebody can give an answer to this problem. Just spent about 45 minutes adding 5 pictures and all the write up around it only to find when I posted it that it exceeded the 3000k limit. On using the back switch below the warning it wipes out all the work I just put in. This has happened a few times when I have been doing the Project threads and is extremely annoying as it means staring that piece all over again. Surely there is some way of going back to the posting screen without losing everything. Sorry no update today as I don't have the patience to do it again will try tomorrow. Cheers.
Not an answer as such but I've been burnt with this before on different forums so before I press any button to post I highlight all text and copy to clipboard - so if the worst happens I can just paste without having to type all the text in again
Simon
Post by: Laverda Dave on April 25, 2020, 11:21:18 AM
I've also been bitten in the past with losing my posts. I do as Simon suggested, if I'm posting a long thread I prepare it fist in a word document, spell check it and then cut and paste it. Long winded but it works.
Keep the progress reports coming, I'm currently stuck indoors with the virus (at least I'm not in hospital). I need a bit of decent reading material to keep me going!
Post by: royhall on April 25, 2020, 12:33:17 PM
Post by: MCTID on April 25, 2020, 12:40:30 PM
Now I copy all the text before I do anything else.........but it's not a problem with Photos as I still can't attach any pics even after 5 years on this great Forum, and I have lost the will to live trying to solve it !!!!!
LOL (as they say).
Post by: royhall on April 26, 2020, 10:15:58 AM
The bike is now fully apart down to virtually every last nut and bolt. It's always surprising how such a simple bike has so many parts, all of which require some sort of cleaning or refurbishment. To sort out the bits I have five boxes ready marked Powder Coating, Painting, BZP, Polishing, and Chroming. After I have cleaned everything that needs cleaning they are sorted into what's required and placed in the correct box.
Don't know how you other guys keep track of all the bits but I do it with photographs. That way I know what's gone to each person for work and how many parts there were. I do the same when they return so I know if anything is missing, and most of all I can prove it and supply a picture of what they have to search for.
Here's a few examples of what I mean.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
I also take the photo idea a step further on dismantling each assembly. As you probably realise, when the parts end up in the chroming etc boxes they are now a jumbled up jigsaw. Unless you are doing this type of bike day after day it is going to be difficult to say what part goes on what assembly. It usually ends up taking ages going through the parts book to identify each piece. It can be slightly tedious to do at the time but I do it this way and it always pays off. I have one of these pictures for every assembly.
[attachimg=4]
Keeping track of the parts is a bit uninteresting but well worth the trouble. Sometimes though I get so hooked up with what I'm doing I forget to take the pictures. It's only when I went through the photographs yesterday to shink them I realised I don't have a picture of the parts I sent to the painter. So the system is not perfect.
The clocks don't look too bad but unfortunately the bezel is in need of re-chroming. So as usual I sent the combined speedo/tachometer to Pete Horton as he has done a top job for me many times before. I'm hoping that there is not too much wrong with the clocks as they will be hard to replace and expensive. Plus these are the original clocks off the bike so have the correct mileage showing.
[attachimg=5]
Peter has now stripped the clocks and reports back that they are in great condition and just need cleaning and lubrication. Has is going to re-do the BZP to the casing and brackets and has sent the bezel back to me. The bezel has now gone out with the rechroming.
Everything is now with the various disciplines for refurbishment and it will probably be about 3 months before it all returns. In that time I have got some smaller sub assemblies I can get on with, but at some point I am going to be waiting. Shame they haven't all just come back as by the time were out of lockdown I would have been riding a new bike.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 26, 2020, 11:15:56 AM
Peter just recently returned my bomber clock and made a fantastic job of it seeing as it was originally a mis-marked (CB72/77) auto jumble bargain that I got for £20. I didn't wan't to wait for a bezel rechrome due to the current situation, Peter managed to fit one I sent him that was a stainless steel one off a JDM CB250K0 gauge but was slightly smaller. I think some CB160's also had stainless steel bezels.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: kent400 on April 27, 2020, 09:01:24 AM
Post by: royhall on April 27, 2020, 09:04:33 AM
Post by: royhall on April 27, 2020, 10:56:03 AM
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Now if only I had the painting and chroming back I could assemble the forks. Getting impatient now.
Post by: royhall on April 27, 2020, 03:24:52 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 27, 2020, 05:02:59 PM
Post by: royhall on April 27, 2020, 08:01:10 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 27, 2020, 08:52:37 PM
That would be great Ash. Can you mike up the working diameter, preferably in inches but metric okay. Thanks.
Hi Roy I make it 1.297 to 8" (had to dig out a dead man's M&W micrometer though and learn how to use it :D as my digital mic. is only up to 1")
HONDA CB450K0 Black Bomber Shop Manual
https://www.dropbox.com/s/typ5a2r2mjaxtvs/CB450%20K0%20BLACK%20BOMBER%20SHOP%20MANUAL%20.pdf?dl=0
Looking forward to your 'experiments' on using K1 air filters on the Bomber as I have a pair NOS that I want to use on mine.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: royhall on April 28, 2020, 03:27:19 PM
The next little project is to get over the problem with air filters. The 450K0 had a pair of air filters that were unique to that model. They were changed for the K1 model and then stayed the same over the life of the 450. Problem is that the K1 items do not directly fit to the K0. The battery box is welded as part of the frame on the K0 but was changed to a removable item from K1 onwards. The filters are the same except for the crossover link fittings between the two filters, as per the photo's.
[attachimg=1]
My old existing filters are no longer serviceable due to rust and damaged elements, along with mountains of muck. As the K0 filters are no longer available, I decided that the way forward was to use K1 filters and adapt the link pipes. The K0 link pipes are longer and join together directly with a rubber seal. The K1 link pipes are both short and join through a steel oval tube that's welded as part of the later battery box. So the idea is to get a later battery box and remove the tube where it's spot welded on, and TIG up the four holes. This can then be used as a loose connector pipe fitted with a pair of K1 seals, which came at enormous cost from an American company called Clauss Studio's. I managed to get a K4 battery box on eBay for less than £8 including P&P.
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
As the filters fit rigidly to the frame I don't think any further atattchments for the link pipe will be required, but if it isn't quite rigid enough I will drill through both air boxes where the centre of the link pipe sits and bolt them together with a length of stainless thread bar and nylock nuts. I doubt that will be required though.
The rubbers on the air boxes were both perished and not reusable. Again at great cost I managed to obtain a pair from Clauss Studio's. The old rubbers came off the air boxes without too much fight and the adhesive was easily cleaned off with a blade. The new pattern rubbers fitted very well so I bonded them on with flexible non silicone construction adhesive that took nearly a week to set (strange) but has now stuck well.
[attachimg=4]
After giving all the parts a good clean they came out like new, well almost.
[attachimg=5]
Post by: royhall on April 28, 2020, 03:43:05 PM
[attachimg=1]
The rebonded air intake rubbers.
[attachimg=2]
Ready for assembly.
[attachimg=3]
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 28, 2020, 10:17:52 PM
My frame is already painted with the welded in battery box. Do you reckon the K1 filters will fit witha the oval tubes taken from the old K0 ones. Also the bracket is slightly shallower .
See this link... second post Roy
https://www.hondatwins.net/threads/1966-cb450-k0-bill.130522/?fbclid=IwAR26dGlmiz-EgBhvlhoTJILCQfnhvEsJ-zAmZbRQZfarDVQybQRqb-ExT1A
Post by: royhall on April 29, 2020, 08:28:20 AM
Had a look at the link about the air filters and my reaction to that is "what a bodge job". Why go to all that trouble to produce a poor outcome when you can take the tube straight off a later box and use the standard rubber seals. I haven't finished mine yet but I have dry fitted it and it looks like it's going to work well. Or I could just McGuyver it with gaffer tape. Not impressed at all with the quality of that. By the way, there are tons of later battery boxes coming up on eBay for next to no money.
I can't post a picture of the filters and tube fitted, as the frame is away for powder coat and the seals have been trapped at Los Angeles airport for nearly three weeks as there are no flights. So stop winging Branson and get the seats out of your jets and go and ship the cargo backlog mountain. ;D
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 29, 2020, 08:50:12 AM
"Both K0 bikes I have are missing original air filters and filter casings. One of the bikes came with a set of Uni clamp on filters, but I figured I'd try for a more stock configuration. Considering I now had a set of original 1966 K0 air filters to use as a template I decided to purchase a set of 1971 CB450 air filters to modify to match the originals.
I walked the aisles of Lowes until I came across a piece of 4" air duct that I could use to build the bridge between the vents of the 1971 air filters.
I then shaped the thin metal duct with my hands by wrapping it around the outside of the 1971 CB450 duct vents.
I then taped the duct to hold its shape and drilled 2 small holes at one end to permanently affix to one side of the 1971 air filter with rivits. I also shortened the length of the tube with a Dremel cutting wheel to match the spacing of the original K0 filters.
This was very easy and worked out much better than I had planned."
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3][attachimg=4]
Post by: royhall on April 29, 2020, 08:56:11 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 29, 2020, 10:41:31 AM
Thanks Ash. I refer you back to my earlier comment. Also, "it worked out much better than I had planned". Standards cant be very high.
I only posted the text& pics because you couldn't initially find the relevent bit Roy... don't worry..... I won't be bodging it like that ;D ;D
Post by: royhall on April 29, 2020, 10:46:25 AM
Post by: royhall on June 27, 2020, 09:45:37 AM
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
I don't think the powder coaters did too bad a job on it. There's a few spots that could have been slightly better but fortunately they are in hidden away areas. Looking closely at the frame you can see just how poorly the welding was done, with uneven snaking about welds and spatter just painted over. Obviously it's meant to be like that so that's how I have left it.
My plan now is to get the engine back into the frame. This is not going to be an easy task as the engine weighs an incredible amount, I would wager it's as heavy as my CB750 engine. So the problem is to get this into this.
[attachimg=4]
The plan of action for later this morning is to lay the engine on it's side on the bench and lower the frame over it and secure with thread bar as the real bolts are still at the platers. I have taken the precaution of taping up the frame as it's going to get banged that's for sure.
[attachimg=5]
Wish me luck, will send some photo's from A&E.
Post by: Bryanj on June 27, 2020, 10:29:40 AM
Post by: Laverda Dave on June 27, 2020, 03:48:19 PM
I feel your pain with the chroming, I've been waiting for 16 weeks now for mine to make a return.
Like you I had to resort to fitting the engine back into the frame using studded bar. I wish I hadn't, l couldn't fit the engine in via the laying on its side method as the engine plates were in the way (it's my Triton rebuild). I placed blocks of wood under the frame with the inevitable consequences of the frame tipping over when I tried to lift the engine into it. I wish I'd waited for the Covid lockdown to have ended and got a mate around to help with the lifting instead of damaging my back, knees and frame!
Keep the posts coming, I'm enjoying the rebuild thread👍.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on June 27, 2020, 04:20:57 PM
EDIT whoops just saw two brackets DOH ! :-[
Post by: royhall on June 28, 2020, 11:29:02 AM
I started out by making some thread bar studs as the correct bolts are still away at the platers (possibly to return some time before the Sun goes Supernova)?
[attachimg=1]
I had a good old struggle getting the engine out of the home made engine stand, it's been in there that long it didn't want to be shifted. I then laid the engine on it's side, after fitting an already damaged alternator cover, with the head and barrels on an old cushion and covered the rest of the bench with towels. I removed the clutch actuator cover and supported the engine with a piece of 3*2 cut to the right length, need to be careful there as the gear change shaft is now unprotected. All three of my manuals say to put the engine in from the left side so that's the plan. It is a bit closer to the edge of the bench than I would have liked but needed the room so the frame misses the garage wall.
[attachimg=2]
I carefully lowered the frame over the engine and helpfully the bottom mounting fell straight into place so I slid a long stud through and fitted nuts hand tight. It was then just a matter of lifting the headstock to get the second long stud through, then an easy job fitting the top and front brackets.
[attachimg=3]
At this point I needed to stand the frame up. I was planning to have the frames bottom rail still on the bench so I could roll the frame upright and slide it on to safety, unfortunately it was overhanging. This is the point where I realised I should have done this on the floor, thick or what. Anyway, the easy alternative was pick the whole lot up and heave it onto the bench. That was probably the back ache moment.
[attachimg=4]
Now the next big heave was off the bench onto the beer crate I always use to do the build up. So no messing about just got hold of it and with the assistance of gravity plonked it on the box.
[attachimg=5]
So there it was in the frame, and in position. At this point I fitted the other plates and tightened all the studs. It became clear whilst tightening the front plates that something was wrong. The rear lower fixing had a large gap between the engine and the plate and the other three bolts tightened correctly (you can just see it on the last photo). On checking, the front mount on the lower crankcase had been machined 5mm out of true (so much for Honda quality control). So for now I packed it out with washers that I will replace when I get chance to make an aluminium spacer, probably when I change the bolts.
I also noticed that the barrels are offset to the frame centre line, probably due to one side of the engine being heavier than the other. But it looks weird and I can't say I have seen that before on any other bike I have owned. Now the engine is in, it's easy to see the things that should have been done first ie. fit the starter motor cable that has to thread through the front plates, under the frame and be clipped under the engine. I will probably look at that as well when I take off the plates to change the bolts.
For now I think I will go sit in the big chair and make use of the Warsteiner that was evicted from the crate. OOOHHH my poor old back. ;D
Post by: royhall on June 28, 2020, 11:52:06 AM
[attachimg=1]
The next job will be to tackle the electrics. This is a job where I am way out of my depth so may need plenty of help and advice. Already spotted a couple of problems, the new wiring harness that came from Thailand looks a bit different to the original. I was wanting to keep the original really but it has been butchered. Also, the Selenium rectifier that came with the bike has leaked quite badly and clearly can't be re-used. I think I have another in a box of bits I bought off eBay just for the rear brake torque arm (Ash, I powder coated it as it was already black painted probably a mistake). The whole box of bits only cost me £12 so if the rectifier is good, what a bargain.
Will post some pictures of the wiring harness differences later when I get back into the garage.
Post by: royhall on June 28, 2020, 01:26:13 PM
Roy just a thought regarding the front plate gap. It's clear from the pics that the mounting lugs on the frame are longer on the top than on the bottom, could Honda have machined the front plates so they were handed and you've just fitted them upside down or on the wrong side?Yes it does look so in the photo but the frame lugs do measure exactly the same. Also tried the plates the other way and no difference.
Looking at the pics before they were fitted there does appear to be a recess and spacer fitted on them.
When measuring the casting it is 5mm out top to bottom and with a square across the casting it's all on the one side hence three bolts line up perfectly and the gap is just in the one place. A spacer is the way to go.
Don't forget as mentioned earlier in the thread, this is a replacement bottom casing as the original was badly cracked.
Post by: royhall on July 10, 2020, 08:32:52 AM
[attachimg=1]
This is the best one I could find (credit the Clymer manual) but it does show a single coil and points where mine is duel coil as per the later bikes. Not sure why that is, maybe the single coil was very early bomber that was changed whilst still on the 4 speed. Not important as it doesn't really change any wiring.
I am going to be using a stator from a K4, a glass mat battery, a new wiring harness that the colours are not quite correct, and Pamco electronic ignition with electronic advance. Because of that I think it would be prudent to install a regulator into the circuit as per the later bikes. I was thinking of a combined regulator/rectifier in place of the Selenium unit, maybe something like this [size=78%]https://www.classicbikepartscheshire.com/electrical-c3/ammeters-voltage-regulators-c20/rectifier-regulator-12v-for-classic-motorcycle-p1483/s1500?cid=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImdrq8ZTC6gIVcYBQBh0z3QQMEAQYASABEgL-jPD_BwE (https://www.classicbikepartscheshire.com/electrical-c3/ammeters-voltage-regulators-c20/rectifier-regulator-12v-for-classic-motorcycle-p1483/s1500?cid=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImdrq8ZTC6gIVcYBQBh0z3QQMEAQYASABEgL-jPD_BwE)[/size]
Any comments or advice at this point before I order the wrong thing would be appreciated.
Post by: Bryanj on July 10, 2020, 08:53:44 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 10, 2020, 09:15:50 AM
Post by: royhall on July 10, 2020, 09:21:30 AM
[attachimg=1]
Then wiring should be the two yellow wires connect to brown and yellow (either way), the red goes to red, and the black to ground (these wires are already at the rectifier so no need to cut the harness). Then the pink wire from the stator is joined to the yellow when the lights are switched via the ignition switch to give the lights a boost. Some recommend permanently splicing the pink and the yellow after the stator, however I am not sure of the need as it already joins (switched) before the rectifier. So to my mind it could stay as is, or would the switching in whilst the alternator is turning somehow damage the unit. Sounds like a perfectly good plan to me or is all that just a dumb scheme?
BTW. Ash, this one is single phase, any reason that wouldn't work on a Honda twin?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 10, 2020, 09:44:35 AM
Post by: royhall on July 10, 2020, 09:55:01 AM
Here's the wiring diagram for the later models with regulator (again courtesy of the Clymer manual, copyright and all that).
[attachimg=1]
Post by: MrDavo on July 10, 2020, 11:12:06 AM
That said, it must just about hold its own, I’ve not had a flat battery or come home with yellow lights. Most bikes when you rev them with the headlight on you see it get brighter but not this one.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 10, 2020, 11:15:21 AM
If you trawl through this download link below (in Dropbox links on here) ... some interesting stuff ... it discusses low output alternators that were fitted to overcome damaging batteries and then the introduction of the solid state regulator in 1968 to cure this. Also these shots i just did from the CB250k manual will help explain things. I will check the wire colours for you.
General Collection of Honda Service Bulletins for various American Honda models. (many thanks Isaias from Facebook for these :)).
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2frhyulrq2wyo7o/Bulletins%201-129%20%28incomplete%29.pdf?dl=0
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
Post by: MrDavo on July 10, 2020, 11:44:39 AM
If so, I’ll leave the charging system alone.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 10, 2020, 11:57:51 AM
Ash do you think my 69 bike, which has the same rectifier and regulator as shown in that bulletin, is just working as intended by not frying the battery?
If so, I’ll leave the charging system alone.
Best thing to do is connect an ammeter in series with the battery (or use clamp on DC ammeter) but DON'T operate the electric start and take some current measurements at various RPM's with and without the lights switched on. You can then make an assesment to see if the alternator rotor magnets are weak. I assume a '69 CL 450 model has the SS regulator fitted? The SS regulator doesn't cut in until well above 12v .. it cuts in when the battery is sensed as being charged to almost full capacity
EDIT: cuts in between 14 and <15v
Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 10, 2020, 12:13:19 PM
The 'rubber cap' they refer to is only on the very early versions of the regulator box (I have that type on my really early CB250K0's with the hydraulic cam chain tensioner). I think it insulates the stud of the thyristor that's used as a voltage clamp..probaby replaced by a non-stud type (plastic body) in later versions of the regulator. A thyristor is often referred to as an 'SCR' .. Silicon Controlled Rectifier ... it's what was also used in early Kawasaki etc. CDI's to discharge the HV capacitor into the ignition coil primaries.
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 10, 2020, 01:19:20 PM
This one is rated at 32A and relatively inexpensive (probably cheaper on eBay but you coud gurantee the quality on this one).
https://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/btw69-800rg/thyristor-50a-800v-top3/dp/1057302 (https://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/btw69-800rg/thyristor-50a-800v-top3/dp/1057302)
Post by: Bryanj on July 10, 2020, 03:39:40 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 10, 2020, 03:55:14 PM
I got an account with Farnell if you decide you need one(or two)
Thanks Bryan but I have had trade account for about 25 years with Farnell RS and Rapid and ordered parts this week from Farnell for a work job. TBH I probably already have a few beefy thyristors to try ... just don't want to reinvent the wheel though. There is already stuff out there but not researched yet. Like this DIY one. https://mastercircuits.blogspot.com/2010/11/single-phase-voltage-regulator.html
Post by: nigelrharris on July 10, 2020, 06:23:04 PM
The basic system is a magnet that spins in a coil. The magnet had the starter clutch on it which could well have been a source of your issue.
The original coil may have had insulation leakages. It has three pairs of coils two are for Night time running and come in when you turn on the headlamp and one for day. I never ride without light these days.
I had the coils professionally rewound at a place in Sussex. Not the originals but the work better. I purchased the last NOS rotor from Silvers. Yes it was painful but worth it. I believe that you can get these magnetised too.
I have a new diode rectifier with significantly less internal resistance from RS it works a treat and is fitted to a heat sink along with the voltage regulator.
The biggest problem I had was the starter clutch had come lose in the past. It sounded like a run big end to be honest it was that bad. This had vibrates and partially demagnetised the rotor. Hence the change of Rotor. Cheap silicon rectifiers work well. I have a 20A fitted to an aluminium heat sink in the rectifier well this also takes the VR.
Post by: royhall on July 12, 2020, 10:54:26 AM
Thanks for posting the manuals and bulletins Ash. I had already seen the bulletin about the low power early alternators when I was building the engine. As I have used a much later alternator that is what prompted the thinking I need a regulator of some sort.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 12, 2020, 01:00:51 PM
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4u9p8tzi6c6sbld/AAApj8jf5aTlziAZbcil6_gXa?dl=0
Post by: royhall on July 12, 2020, 01:48:46 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 12, 2020, 04:38:29 PM
That would be great. Thanks Ash.Done .. I will post on here if I get a response. Will need that information myself soon.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 13, 2020, 09:05:29 AM
That would be great. Thanks Ash.Done .. I will post on here if I get a response. Will need that information myself soon.
I got this back from FB Roy but not sure how unmolested it is though. :) :)
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 13, 2020, 02:12:13 PM
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Post by: royhall on July 13, 2020, 05:26:38 PM
Post by: royhall on July 18, 2020, 05:25:28 PM
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Post by: Bryanj on July 18, 2020, 06:40:45 PM
Post by: royhall on July 19, 2020, 07:57:33 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on July 19, 2020, 06:24:37 PM
Post by: royhall on July 19, 2020, 06:53:14 PM
Post by: royhall on August 08, 2020, 08:48:37 AM
I have been using the time to try to get some sub assemblies built up. The air filter modification (as mentioned earlier in this thread) to use the later filters has worked out well and required no more fasteners to hold in place. I just need to be careful when changing the filters elements as the link pipe is not held in place by anything but the filters. That said, how often are the filters going to be removed, probably never. And not a hint of Gaffer tape in sight.
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I attempted to remove the swingarm bushes before it was powder coated without success. They were hard in there and no way to get a purchase on the edge of them to drive them out. The powder coat guy gave me a great tip. He says he gets swingarms in with the bushes still in and not blanked off. He said they often fall out when the coating is baked. With that in mind I blanked off the bushes with steel plates and thread bar and sent them off to be coated. On return I found they were that loose I could pull them out with an angled pick. It appears that these sintered bushes shrink when heated, how weird. Anyway, job done. The new bushes went in okay with a good interference fit, and were pulled in using the old thread bar and washers routine.
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I fitted the swing arm using all new thrust washers and seals from the Pirate.
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The swingarm went back into the frame with ease and was bolted up with the re-plated bolt and nut. I gave it a good shot of lube from the grease gun until it showed at the joints. On checking the arm was free to move in the up and down axis with no side or twisting play.
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I should comment at this point about how rough some of the parts look. This is in no way the fault of painters or powder coaters etc, it is how these parts are. The whole bike is a bit agricultural and by no means as well made as we have come to expect on the later fours. I could have spent hours polishing everything to a flat surface before coating but that would not be authentic, and a complete boring waste of life. So they are staying as Honda intended. That said the alloy polishing guy decided not to follow instructions and went down the show pony route. Bit hard to ring a guy to complain he had done his job too well. More on that later.
Post by: royhall on August 08, 2020, 09:21:37 AM
This was the finish I was looking for on the wheels. You know the clean not over polished thing.
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Now with the brake plate fitted.
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I'm hoping that a good wipe over with ACF50 and the passing of a bit of time will dumb down the shine a bit so it blends in. The polishing guy could have saved himself a good few hours work there. But as I said before, how do you knock a guy for doing the job too well.
Talking of overdone bits, here's a picture of a few that got into the wrong box. They got chromed when they should be BZP. There's the fantastically polished and chromed figure 8 plate holding the shoes in, and the polished cams opening the shoes. They have to be an award winner at any show, I mean who else chromes the insides of the brakes. ;D
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Building up the handlebars next. After putting them in the vice so I can fit the electrics I realised they were bent on the left hand side. I knew the bike had been down on that side quite hard, probably what put the bike off the road in the first place. Time for a bit of force to see if they can be salvaged. The big pipe came out to assist with leverage.
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A good bit of pushing and pulling whilst being carful not to damage the chrome had them dead straight again. After fitting the polished and serviced electrics and lever mounts I fitted a new pair of genuine levers and grips. I think they came out really nice.
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The grips as usual didn't want to go on. I have in the past been wary of using lubricants to get grips on as they usually come loose again later and your forever pushing them back on. A little trick I learned for this is carb cleaner, a good spray on the steel parts has the rubber pushing straight on then a few minutes later the cleaner has evaporated and the grips go super tight. But make sure they go on right first time as you wont get them to move again.
Post by: royhall on August 08, 2020, 09:56:07 AM
The handlebars fitted to the top yokes and mounts.
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The new Hagon shocks and grab bar fitted with all new bolts.
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Front view with the bespoke made sticker (thanks Piki). The frame stamping was masked off before powder coating as it needs to be visible. I cant risk it being hidden as I don't have a current V5C only the old style V5 and there may be an inspection required at some point, who knows. I sprayed the headstock with three coats of clear to stop the number from rusting.
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Various other assemblies ready to go.
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So that's where I'm at now. Am hoping the silver paintwork returns next week so I can get the forks built up and fitted. I also need the rear mudguard fitted so I can find a space for the extra electrics ie the regulator and the control box for the electronic ignition.
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Post by: MrDavo on August 08, 2020, 03:01:23 PM
We always used to say that early Jap bikes were welded at, rather than together. My CL frame is also dog rough in places, but to ‘restore’ it would be to ruin the originality.
My mate has a1970s Ducati 750S, when he finally found the right stickers for the front forks they stuck out like a sore thumb, so he set about them with wire wool. Now they look like they’ve been on forever.
The accidental chrome internals remind me of the saddos you see at car shows, with mirrors under the engine to show you how immaculate it is underneath where you can’t see.
Post by: royhall on August 09, 2020, 10:42:01 AM
I have managed to move on to other small bits whilst waiting for the paintwork to arrive back. The front brake linkages were going to be the next problem. As you can see in the photo the linkages are rivetted together. The chroming clearly cannot be done like that so I decided to grind off the rivet ends and press them out. When I say press them out I mean a drift and large hammer and some welly.
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This then leaves the problem of how to reconnect the bits after chroming. Once I had the pieces back, I checked the hole sizes and they were just over 6mm but slightly worn oval. After a bit of searching I found a supply of 1/4" stainless Clevis pins available in different lengths.
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Once they arrived I drilled the remaining holes in the brake clevis fittings 6mm them ran a 1/4" reamer through to give a correct size hole and remove the ovality. The parts were then assembled with the stainless clevis pins.
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Before final assembly onto the brake disks (which is held up as I forgot to order new felt dust seals) I shall strip them again and assemble with thick CV grease. The next job will be to fit the new taper roller headstock bearings. I have got an AllBalls kit that comes with seals and a load of different thickness washers. Of course there's no instructions so I shall have to do a bit of figuring out. Unfortunately the lower bearing is a fairly tight fit on the yoke pin so I shall need to get this right first time as the only way to remove it afterwards would be to cut it off. This is a job I have been putting off for a while so I'm going to get it done today.
Post by: K2-K6 on August 09, 2020, 11:14:24 AM
I like them more original too, rather than refinished to within an inch of percieved perfection. Something very engaging about a bike close to as it was delivered from production at it's time of manufacture.
Post by: royhall on August 22, 2020, 09:40:49 AM
The brakes were assembled with new shoes and springs. I didn't need to touch the drums as they were in perfect condition, probably the only bits on the bike that were. (Who's ugly mug is that in the mirror polished alloy)
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The taper roller steering head bearings were a bit of a mystery. They are the AllBalls version and came with four different packing washers and no instructions. It took a fair bit of measuring and head scratching to get it right. It had to be right first time as the lower bearing is a tight fit on the stem and would be almost impossible to remove again without damaging it. If it ever needed changing in the future (highly unlikely with the miles it will do) I would cut it off with the Dremmel.
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Measuring the headlamp ears and fork shrouds it looks like the calculations were correct. When fully tightened the yokes should compress the rubber mounts enough to hold everything firmly in place.
The good news is that the last of the painted parts are finally ready. Only took him seven months. At least now there should be some significant progress.
Post by: royhall on August 23, 2020, 10:24:41 AM
The first job is to get the forks built up and the front end on. On the old Honda's the fork seal fits into the chrome carrier and held in place with a spring clip. The first seal was a little bit tight but went in okay, the second seal went halfway in and decided to go super tight. As I couldn't get it out again I decided to drive it home, that went badly resulting in a Dremmel removal. Fortunately I just happened to have another seal, no idea where it came from must have been the Angels. After a quick spin inside the carrier with a rotary wire brush the second seal fitted just fine. And I didn't forget to fit a new O-ring seal that is one of the many things in the parts book that are missing.
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The forks were a simple rebuild in, as Haynes would say, the reverse order of dismantling. The hard chromers have done a spot on job of re-plating and grinding the fork tubes and they are a good finish and bang on size. And cheaper the Philpots, they are called Dynasurf and they live in Sandbach Cheshire.
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It was mentioned on another thread recently about not being able to build up the bike due to lack of space. I can relate to that comment as I'm slowly building myself into a corner, would put some stuff in the rented lock up but that's also full of bikes. You can see the problem in the background of the photo's. Hard life eh.
The forks and associated parts almost fitted themselves they went on so easily, glad I spent time working out the packing for the head bearings as it is perfect. I was expecting fun and games from the front mudguard as it's a pattern part from Vietnam. I needn't have worried, except for having to drill out two holes that were done 6mm instead of 8mm it went on a treat. Maybe faith is restored a bit in pattern parts as I have had so much rubbish in the past it makes me nervous to order the stuff.
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At this point of the build it is nice that all the sub assemblies are ready built as the bike comes together quickly. The front wheel went straight in and fitted well, spins freely with no brake binding and the brake works with just a slight pull on the lever. I was going to fit the handlebars but the fork top bolt fouls on it's way out so as the fork oil hasn't arrived yet I shall hold off on that.
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Honda sure liked the big mudguards back in the 60's, they look huge compared to the later bikes. As the bike is still on the beer crate I am not going ti fit anything else to the front end as it's getting a bit front heavy. At some point I need to enlist some help to move the crate to the swingarm so I can fit the centre stand. This is the system I have used many time before and it works well.
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The next job to tackle will be the wiring. I need to fit the new seat to see how much clearance there is underneath as I need to find a safe home for the extra voltage regulator and the control box for the Pamco electronic ignition. I have been summoned to attend a farmers market this afternoon so that will be a job for tomorrow.
Post by: Laverda Dave on August 23, 2020, 10:35:14 AM
I'm still waiting for my chrome, it's six months now and I've given up hope of getting the bike on the road to enjoy the last of the summer.
Post by: royhall on August 23, 2020, 10:39:41 AM
Post by: mattsz on August 23, 2020, 12:17:50 PM
Post by: MCTID on August 23, 2020, 12:31:32 PM
Give me a shout as and when you need a hand to lift it off the crate.......happy to help.......I might even bring my GS750 along for the ride. LOL.
Post by: JamesH on August 23, 2020, 03:09:53 PM
Post by: royhall on August 23, 2020, 04:49:05 PM
Four to six months for chrome? Seven months for paint? Wow - are these guys that busy? Or do they wait until they have a big enough pile of parts on hand to do a run?I had to have a bit of a go at the painter to get my gear back at 7 months. He snapped at me that he was really busy pointing to all the car repairs that had come in during the last week. I pointed it out to him quite firmly that my stuff came in 6 months ago and why are these other customers more important than me. Then the excuse was since the lockdown he has been working on his own so it takes time. He means he was putting the big profit insurance jobs ahead of mine. I hope he stays busy as he wont be getting any more work off me. Plenty of other painters around, it's not like it was multi coloured candy or anything just plain black and plain silver. Had it been something a bit fussy it would have gone to Menno. At least when it was finally done he only charged me £200 by way of an apology so that bit was okay. The chromers on the other hand are always busy but do the jobs in the order they come in which is fair.
Post by: royhall on September 06, 2020, 09:52:52 AM
Fresh from the triumph with the pattern part front mudguard that was a really nice easy fit I decided to have a go at the seat. Both the seat and the new rubber hinge set are both pattern parts, the seat from Vietnam and the hinges from CMS (even has CMS moulded into the side). As this is now a double pattern part assembly, and some parts are from CMS that in my experience are never good, I'm not holding out for an easy fit.
How right I was, the seat fit is not even close. I decided to measure against the original bits to see what was wrong. I put bolts into all the screw holes in both seats to aid measuring. Took about 15 minutes to measure both and to double check and the seat from Vietnam was almost perfect. On the other hand no measuring was required with the seat hinges from CMS as the difference was visual, they are miles out. The front hinge was the worst part, I ended up drilling the holes bigger and shaving some rubber away with a scalpel. I also made packer plates for the right side bearers and the seat lock. After a mornings worth of messing around I have finally got the thing to fit in an acceptable manner. Good old CMS, never fail to disappoint.
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I wont be celebrating the seat fitting just yet as I still have to try it with the tank on. Hopefully it wont interfere or have a large gap? It's a shame I couldn't just re-use the original hinges, but they are so perished they would fall apart.
The purpose of fitting the seat now was to establish how much room I have for fitting the extra electrical items ie the later model voltage regulator and the control box for the electronic ignition which the instructions say to place under the seat. Turns out there is quite a good space beneath the seat so shouldn't be a problem. I then remembered that the air filter cross link was from a later model and the regulator is usually bolted to that. Fitted a treat with just two bolts so that's where it can now live. Bonus.
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The Pamco electronic ignition was next. Although saying in the instructions to fit under the seat and being made for the CB450, there's not enough cable length on either the sensors or the control box. Bit of bad design going on there, almost as if they have never fitted it to an actual bike? After leaving it for a while and giving it some thought (these are the things that stop you sleeping at night) I decided I would make up a special 6 cable wiring harness for it, the ground and the power feed can connect over the back mudguard.
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The tiny wires connected to the control box did not help matters as they were too small to crimp the connectors on reliably. To get around that I soldered on a small piece of larger cable and insulated with shrink wrap, and crimped the connectors onto that. Worked quite well as the cables wont need to flex once installed.
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Post by: royhall on September 06, 2020, 10:18:04 AM
As always I have run some extra ground cables that connect directly to the battery. In this case I used one of the fixing bolts on the rectifier as a common post. That firmly grounds the rectifier, regulator, electronic ignition, and back light and also better grounds the frame.
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I always scare myself with the electrics as it's starting to look like a pan of multi coloured spaghetti under the frame. The double bullet connector is a live feed for the electronic ignition and the regulator that I ran from the live feed for the back brake switch. As you can see from the second photo, with the back mudguard fitted that space became fairly tight. Fortunately with the air filters removed access to the cables is fiddly but possible.
I wish I could have found a nice new starter solenoid as it looks a bit crabby, unfortunately they are as rare as. It does work perfectly though so that may get changed at a later date should the amazing happen and one shows up somewhere.
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Whilst mentioning the grounds, I gave some thought to the heavy ground for the starter motor. I made up a new 6mm ground wire to the battery negative and connected it to the frame where the rear engine mount fits. This may be overkill and not what Honda did but to ensure the correct grounding of the engine I made a copper piece to fit between the frame and engine fitted behind the mounting plate. How often are breakdowns due to poor grounding, not on my bikes there not (paranoid bike builder warning).
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 06, 2020, 11:38:19 AM
I would have had some pretty sleepless night with sphincter contractions at various parts of the reveal - just an amazing rebuild - respect. 8) 8)
Post by: AshimotoK0 on September 06, 2020, 11:45:06 AM
What I did with my perished seat hinges was to bead blast them clean and then, with the old rubber still on them, I injected all of the cracked /damaged bits with some flexible polyurethane potting compound I had left over from sealing some electronic sensors on a hydraulically raisable pool floor I have just been working on. When that cured, I dressed it with scalpel and then 're-encapusulalted' the rubber parts with the same PU and using sticky tape/Blu-tak Blue Peter style to contain it whilst it cured up. They look acceptable and so that's what I am using rather than buying pattern parts.
The attached pic is them in their 'as treated' state ..they need a bit of trimming and fettling before fitting but that's a long way off anyway. This set looked absolutely grotty before treatment ..one of the metal tubes had totally detached itself from the rubber part.
Still trying to find those 4 pesky rubber seals, unique to the K0, which fit under the crank, for my engine.
My bike was just bins of parts when I got it and the only wiring reference is as below but I could ask on BB FB group for you if you get stuck.
Post by: royhall on September 13, 2020, 10:17:45 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on September 13, 2020, 11:25:59 AM
Those repaired seat hinges look interesting, what do you think the chances are of them staying together long term? You may get a request Ash to do my old ones just in case the rubbishy new ones don't work, mine are also falling to bits with parts coming off. Also, it's surprising how much information is contained in that little drawing of the cable runs, very helpful thanks.
Not sure Roy .. really need to mount my seat onto my frame and try out but the PU is top notch stuff and is used in applications with permanent immersion in water. It all depends on the stength of the bonding though.
Post by: MrDavo on September 14, 2020, 01:07:47 PM
Speaking of crowded garages, here's mine, now the 911 has returned home.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gtfn0mJV/IMG-4783.jpg)
I'm deliberately leaving the Z1A's back wheel and mudguard till last, because once fitted you won't be able to get past any more. However being mobile will mean its a lot easier to try and fit the bike at an angle than it is now on the crate.
Post by: Laverda Dave on September 15, 2020, 10:47:37 AM
Post by: royhall on September 20, 2020, 10:33:51 AM
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As the front end is now getting heavy for safety's sake it's time to get the bike onto it's centre stand. This involves chocking the front wheel so it cant run forwards or turn sideways, then whilst I lift the back end my glamorous assistant repositions the box underneath the swingarm. It's then quite safe to remove the temporary chocks. A system that I have done many times and it works well.
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Nice to have bits ready to fit that are a mix of new and refurbished parts that are so clean you don't even need to wash your hands after. Hard to believe what these parts looked like back towards the start of this write up.
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The stand and associated parts fitted straight on without any problems. Before fitting I decided to upgrade the rubber end blanking piece in the pivot pin with a grease nipple to make future maintenance a piece of cake. You can just see it on the left of the stand. The black wire hanging down is an extra live cable that will power the electronic ignition, just needs routing now the box is out of the way.
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Next job to tackle is the fitting of the back end components, and getting the handlebars built up and fitted so it's easier if I have to move the bike.
Post by: royhall on October 04, 2020, 11:26:15 AM
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As you can see from the two pictures it was all pretty tight. Now the rectifier is replaced it has freed up quite a bit of space for the wiring. The wiring is now all accessible from the left hand side and just requires the removal of the left hand side panel and air filter.
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You can see in this shot just how much extra wiring is under the rectifier. Hope all my crimps are good or that would mean removing the rear wheel and mudguard to get a soldering iron in. All the crimps were done with a really good pro crimping tool and passed the pull test at the time, but now I wished I had taken the time to solder them as well. To be fair though I thought the access was going to be much better.
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At this point I fitted the rear wheel and chain, no issues there at all. The chain was sold as a CB450K0 specific item but was about 6 links too long. An easy job to remedy and always better too long than too short. I'm sorry Mr Honda but those mudguards are just massive.
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Post by: royhall on October 04, 2020, 11:51:00 AM
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The control cables were not as simple a job as I was expecting. I had bought all the cables early on in the build and expected just to take an hour to fit them. The clutch cable was correct but required a lot of research into it's routing as it fouled in many places, I got it right in the end though and once lubricated and adjusted the clutch works really well. The speedo cable turned out to be a K1 part as that's all that was available. It is the correct length and colour but the nut that fixes it to the speedo drive gearbox is longer than the K0 and bottoms out before the cable is tight. The remedy there was to simply hacksaw 6mm off the end of the aluminium nut. Simples. The front brake cable was impossible to source ready made as they are all too long. I was hoping Venhills would remove 110mm off the lever end of one and replace the nipple but they wouldn't do it. Instead they copied the old cable and made a completely new unit, unfortunately they didn't have all the fittings required so had to reuse the bottom adjuster. It's not been re-plated but you cant really see it on the bike when the rubber boot is pulled on.
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As I had already fitted the pattern seat I thought it prudent at this time to try the petrol tank on to see how the fit is between tank and seat. I had no cause for worry as the tank went straight onto it's new mounting rubbers with the aid of a smear of rubber grease and the seat closed with a perfect gap. Well pleased, and first time in years that the bike looks like a Black Bomber again.
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I have jumped ahead a bit with the pictures as I forgot to to take snaps at the time. Next job is fitting the carbs and air filters that from the above picture you can see are already fitted. A real Blue Peter car crash. I could have cropped the picture but to be honest I cant be bothered.
Post by: royhall on October 18, 2020, 10:08:03 AM
They were an easy fit with new genuine rubbers and clamps. The pattern air filters also fitted okay as I had previously fitted them and got around the usual pattern part fitment issues. As you can see, the filter top mounting bracket is in the wrong place so required slotting to get the bolt in.
The weird spring steel choke connector took a bit of sorting out until I realised that the 450 and 500 items are different. Fortunately I had a 500 link sent with the carbs, so job done.
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Post by: royhall on October 18, 2020, 10:34:30 AM
I have started to make the brackets but have come to a dead stop. The problem is that I don't have a right hand downpipe at the moment as it's still at the chromers. So I have fitted the left pipe and started the rear brackets but need the right pipe fitted to get height and length alignment so all stop on that job. I am also waiting for the headlamp rim from the chromers so I can finish the wiring.
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Once I get the correct positions I can mark the mounting hole and drill it through. This stainless is a real pig to drill and cut. Once the drilling is done I can mark out a triangular shape between the holes and cut them out properly. Then deburr and chamfer and polish them to a nice finish.
So until the chromer comes through that's as far as the project can go. This is where its up to now. The last picture makes the seat look out of line but it's actually not closed onto the clamp. It fits perfectly when it's fully down. The seat itself is the lipped model that shouldn't really be fitted to this bike. I chose it because I like the blended to the tank look that it gives and it also protects the tanks paintwork as the bike will be getting some use. When it comes to selling it I am having the original seat refurbished so it can go with it, or be fitted before sale. The original flat seat and tall tank join reminds me of the 1970's nut crusher MZ250, not a good look but that's just personal preference.
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Post by: Moorey on October 18, 2020, 10:51:09 AM
Stainless requires good quality sharp drill bits a little Trefolex and a slow drill speed and you should be OK. It work hardens very rapidly.
Post by: royhall on October 18, 2020, 10:59:01 AM
Post by: philward on October 18, 2020, 09:27:22 PM
Post by: royhall on November 20, 2020, 03:45:33 PM
[attachimg=1]
On offering up the silencer the mounting bracket fouls the back of the crankcase by quite a margin. At this point I have no option but to cut into a finish chromed piece, not something I would do by choice. After marking out a line around the crankcase with a black Sharpie, it was just a very careful cut using a very thin disk in the grinder.
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
The cut went quite well and after smoothing out and deburring with a fine file I masked the area off and sprayed three coats of cold galvanise to stop the rust (hopefully). If the cold galvanise fails to work the silencer will have to go out for chroming. I used a car scissor jack to lift the silencers into position so I could mark the final hole in the new mounting brackets which was then drilled 11mm to take a 10mm mounting bolt. With the holes drilled I then removed the excess material from the brackets to make a triangular piece, then polished them up on the buffing wheel. To mount the silencers into the correct position I first started with the left silencer and aligned it so the main stand cleared the cut out and hit the rubber stop correctly. To achieve this I used stainless washers to move the silencer left or right, that done I fitted the right silencer packing it so it was even with the left.
[attachimg=4]
Considering the fitment problems encountered with these so called perfect replica's I am really pleased with the end result. It's annoying that they say they are for the K0 when really they are K1 silencers, but that said I am glad they are available as without them it would be virtually impossible to finish a build like this.
[attachimg=5]
Post by: royhall on November 20, 2020, 04:26:10 PM
[attachimg=1]
The petrol tank was the last item to fit although it had been sitting on the bike for a while. After removing I fitted the new fuel tap and put about 0.5ltrs of petrol in the tank and gave it a really good swill around then emptied it into a clean bowl. The petrol came out as clean as it went in so no problems there. I then put a full gallon of petrol in the tank whilst it was still on the bench to check for leaks. As it appeared to have no leaks I put the tank back on the bike and connected the petrol pipes. Unknown to me at this point I had set myself up for a big scare.
[attachimg=2]
It's finally time to prepare for engine startup. With the plugs removed and back in the caps I turned the engine on the starter and observed good fat blue spark at both plugs. At this point the electronic ignition is set to a scribed mark to give a rough setting for startup, afterwards it will be accurately set with a strobe light. The engine turned well on the starter so I gave it a short burst to circulate the oil again, the replaced the plugs in the head. I turned on the petrol tap to fill the carbs and check for leaks, once again all is good.
Time to see if the engine will start. Not being sure what the procedure will be I gave it half choke and no throttle. On pressing the starter button I got a nasty metal to metal sound and a reluctance for the starter sprag clutch to engage and turn the engine. The clutch was rebuilt with new rollers, springs, and cups into the old clutch as new ones are totally unavailable. It appears that the original was too worn to be saved so that' s my new problem. Anyway soldiering on, I tried to start the engine again and this time it fired up straight away. Now here's the previously mentioned scare, it went straight to 7000rpm before I could reach under the tank to kill the ignition. Scared the crap out of me and my hands were still shaking 30 minutes later.
A little investigation revealed that when fitting the tank I had trapped the throttle cable splitter box and pulled it out of its housing, as a result the throttle was at about 60%. To be honest I'm surprised the engine started from cold in that configuration. With that sorted I tried again and it started okay with just the tick-over a little high but that easily adjusted to a steady 1000rpm. Unfortunately the starter clutch doesn't want to play anymore so that will now be coming apart again.
Whilst it was running I checked for charging at the battery. Static the battery voltage was 12.7 volts, running it read 12.76 volts so not totally sure it's charging. It's a new AGM battery so I am uncertain if the 60's alternator has the output to better that voltage plus there's now a regulator fitted.
A couple of questions, can I safely disconnect this red wire from the rectifier and run the engine without anything melting. If I can I can measure the charge voltage without it being connected to the battery. Does that sound possible? And secondly does anyone know where I could get a replacement starter sprag clutch or can I replace it with a clutch from another bike.
[attachimg=3]
Post by: MrDavo on November 20, 2020, 04:55:55 PM
Looking at the photos the right side carb to air cleaner band doesn’t seem to be on properly. My air cleaners are the same as yours, and are also a pain to assemble, when I had all the faffing around with float levels and air leaks they were on and off like a naughty lady’s undergarments.
My CL450 doesn’t seem to charge at much of a higher voltage, which did worry me. That said I’ve never had the battery go flat, even with the lights on.
Post by: K2-K6 on November 20, 2020, 05:44:06 PM
"Now here's the previously mentioned scare, it went straight to 7000rpm before I could reach under the tank to kill the ignition. Scared the crap out of me and my hands were still shaking 30 minutes later."
I bet that reduced the time for oil to reach the exhaust cam :o
Post by: royhall on November 20, 2020, 05:51:44 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 20, 2020, 06:49:22 PM
Your pattern silencers will definitely have been meant for a K0 as the K1 does not have the front mounting brackets. Don't ask me how I know this.... I bought a set of NOS 'K0' silencers, which turned out to be K1 (i.e no front brackets). If you look at the Bomber in David Silvers museum closely, it is fitted with K1 silencers with the front brackets bodged on and silver painted. Luckily I found some proper K0 NOS silencers and sold on the K1 ones.
One Achilles heel fault of the Bomber is the starter sprag clutch. On mine the retaining screws had come loose and chewed up the rear of the alternator rotor and also ripped out the stator windings. Also the sprag rollers had distorted and ruined the side plate. Plus the sprag clutch rollers had also badly worn the boss on the sprag clutch sprocket assembly. The parts are rocking horse poo parts. I have got my mate Graham Curtis looking at recovering the sprockets by grinding down the boss and shrinking on a hardened collar. I did get hold of a NOS CB500T --275-- rotor and it looks basically the same as the --283-- part (the taper is the same). People tell me you can fit the 5-speed parts but even these are very rare, even in the States. The ony place I have seen selling the clutch and alternator rotor relatively cheaply, in decent nick, is the seller on eBay called BGM Cafe racers.
There was a discussion on Facebook Bomber closed group on the starter clutch .. I will copy it later and put it on here.
Post by: royhall on November 21, 2020, 05:50:15 PM
I have taken the starter clutch back out and degreased everything. It was covered in some greasy goo that I think came off the new starter chain. I thought that may have been the problem but no luck as it was just the same.
After cleaning I miked everything up to check for maybe an odd roller but didn't find anything. I have assembled it on the bench and tried it, one of the rollers sticks out of position every time I tried it. Under a magnifying glass the roller mating face has two dents that are grabbing the roller and stopping it moving. All three faces have this wear but one is worse. Really this part requires replacing but they are available nowhere.
My plan for tomorrow is to polish the faces with a small fine polishing stone and try to remove a bit of material at the high spots to take away the dent and see how that works. I have nothing to loose if it doesn't work as it's useless as it is. If that doesn't work, to be honest I don't know what I will do. I doubt I will find a new or good used item as there are so many people looking. I was hoping that someone would have come up with a cunning plan to remedy this as it's a very common problem. All I can find on the internet is how to replace the rollers and springs. One lucky break is the roller face on the sprocket is in good condition.
Any ideas here would be gratefully received. Cheers.
UPDATE. Just noticed something here https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb450k0-black-bomber-general-export-usa_model14564/rotor-ac-dyn_31101283013/#.X7lX7-VxeUk (https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb450k0-black-bomber-general-export-usa_model14564/rotor-ac-dyn_31101283013/#.X7lX7-VxeUk) This alternator rotor has lugs to centre the starter clutch, mine does not have these. I was wondering how it was supposed to centre as the starter is bolted down before the rotor is on the shaft. If its even slightly off centre it's going to cause a problem? Probably wont help as these items aren't available either, but looking at mine it does look like some arse of a PO has filed the lugs off. Looks like I need a replacement rotor before moving on.
Spot the difference. No wonder the starter wont work.
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[attachimg=2]
Post by: K2-K6 on November 21, 2020, 06:13:03 PM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Anlasser-freilauf-Starter-CLUTCH-Yamaha-VMAX-1200-V-MAX-Kupplung-VMAX12-/111619692053
Is it the component in above link?
Post by: royhall on November 21, 2020, 06:15:42 PM
Wondering if there are any close that could be machined as the basic design has mostly been copied from those early Honda I believe.Yes it is similar and the same overall design, but check my update above.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Anlasser-freilauf-Starter-CLUTCH-Yamaha-VMAX-1200-V-MAX-Kupplung-VMAX12-/111619692053 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Anlasser-freilauf-Starter-CLUTCH-Yamaha-VMAX-1200-V-MAX-Kupplung-VMAX12-/111619692053)
Is it the component in above link?
Post by: K2-K6 on November 21, 2020, 06:43:44 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 21, 2020, 07:45:09 PM
Used ones do pop up on eBay and surprisingly are mega expensive in the States but often quite reasonabe in the UK. This one from DK (sadly sold but given as an example) was quite cheap and looked decent.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB450K-CB450-K-1968-1974-Generator-Rotor-Starter-Clutch-Chain/333732250254?hash=item4db3fe028e:g:tvEAAOSwAhtfbL9t
Post by: K2-K6 on November 21, 2020, 08:41:59 PM
This one "appears" to be available.
Post by: K2-K6 on November 21, 2020, 08:46:33 PM
Same seller but wildly different postage costs!
Post by: K2-K6 on November 21, 2020, 08:54:00 PM
This is showing, but I don't understand buying process as pictures seem to be advertised elsewhere. Whether it's an aggregated site I'm not sure.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 21, 2020, 09:04:02 PM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/68-74-Honda-CB450-CL450-Super-Sport-Scrambler-CL-CB-450-Flywheel-Rotor-/373352162152
Same seller but wildly different postage costs!
Like I said Nigel .... the Americans seem to think they are selling the Crown Jewels when it comes to those parts.
This sold earlier this year and on par with the DK one that sold recently. They also sold another about the same time and both sets looked in pretty decent nick to me.
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
Post by: royhall on November 21, 2020, 09:49:27 PM
https://www.kdnoorse.com/early-6568-honda-cb450-cb-450-super-sport-nos-outer-starter-clutch-housing-unit-p-516092.htm (https://www.kdnoorse.com/early-6568-honda-cb450-cb-450-super-sport-nos-outer-starter-clutch-housing-unit-p-516092.htm)Think I may have jumped too soon on this as the site now appears to be a scam. Looks like I'm cancelling a credit card now.
This is showing, but I don't understand buying process as pictures seem to be advertised elsewhere. Whether it's an aggregated site I'm not sure.
UPDATE. Just spoke to Natwest and this is a scam site based in HongKong. Credit card cancelled and payment stopped. I suckered myself into that, if it looks too good to be true it usually is a scam. First time in my life I have fallen for that. At least nothings lost. The site is KDNOORSE.COM please beware.
Post by: Bryanj on November 22, 2020, 08:00:27 AM
Have no experience of this but the 500 is so similar could it be modified---'if you can find a good one!!
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 22, 2020, 08:33:57 AM
Never done a 450 but the 500T was also notorious for destroying the starter clutch and loosening the clutch on the rotor.
Have no experience of this but the 500 is so similar could it be modified---'if you can find a good one!!
The 500T alternator rotor is slightly different Bryan and I think the sprocket hub has a bearing in it. I do have a NOS 500T rotor I got for mine and I am long overdue to measure it up and compare with a Bomber one so I will do that over the next couple of days. You are dead right, you see 450's for sale, top dollar but often it's stated that the electric starter doesn't work.
I personally would wait until the likes of DK or BGM get another one in and buy the whole assembly. I have dealt with both and they take returns if you are not happy with no quibbling. Seems they sell them complete for less than a hundred quid, whilst the Amercans can often ask 200 quid just for one component that's not even NOS .
Update: here is the 500T Parts Book ... the sprocket hub does have a needle roller bearing in it but the bearing is not listed as a separate part. The other starter clutch parts are a mixture of 283 (K0) ,292 (K1) & 375 (500T) parts.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fvanpeucgqkrt9e/Honda%20CB500%20Twin%20CB%20500%20T%20Illustrated%20Parts%20List%20Diagram%20Manual.pdf?dl=0
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 22, 2020, 09:14:32 AM
UPDATE: Only engines up to 1191 had the smaller diameter sprocket hub fitted.
[attachimg=1]
https://www.hondatwins.net/threads/later-model-cb450-rotor-starter-clutch-work-on-a-k0-bb.5884/
Post by: K2-K6 on November 22, 2020, 09:34:35 AM
https://www.kdnoorse.com/early-6568-honda-cb450-cb-450-super-sport-nos-outer-starter-clutch-housing-unit-p-516092.htm (https://www.kdnoorse.com/early-6568-honda-cb450-cb-450-super-sport-nos-outer-starter-clutch-housing-unit-p-516092.htm)Think I may have jumped too soon on this as the site now appears to be a scam. Looks like I'm cancelling a credit card now.
This is showing, but I don't understand buying process as pictures seem to be advertised elsewhere. Whether it's an aggregated site I'm not sure.
UPDATE. Just spoke to Natwest and this is a scam site based in HongKong. Credit card cancelled and payment stopped. I suckered myself into that, if it looks too good to be true it usually is a scam. First time in my life I have fallen for that. At least nothings lost. The site is KDNOORSE.COM please beware.
Apologies Roy, I obviously didn't mean to put something up here that could do that.
There's clearly some aggregator sites that trawl other adds (presume they take a % from the original add service) like picklic does. We buy through that route, but I couldn't see the method on that as posted.
Post by: royhall on November 22, 2020, 10:35:09 AM
Reading the above, I may have an early rotor that someone has bodged a later clutch onto. The lugs are not broken they have been filed away. Will give DK a ring tomorrow, what's the best number to get them on.
If I get totally stuck I can always throw £193 through the pirates window and get one of the 3 new ones he has in stock. Ash, is yours a later clutch mechanism, if so can you measure the outside diameter please.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 22, 2020, 08:14:03 PM
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]
Post by: royhall on November 23, 2020, 04:16:45 PM
CB450 K4 vs K5 alternator rotor swap- beware!
(https://www.redditstatic.com/desktop2x/img/renderTimingPixel.png)
The K5 engine I had on my CB500T framed cafe racer-ish fun bike was having transmission woes, and finally crapped the bed when 4th gear on the countershaft lost a chunk. I sourced a 71 CL450 engine that looks beautiful for it’s age, but has no history whatsoever. All I know is it came from a defunct dealership in Nebraska, and was on the original frame, albeit sporting a knobby rear tire and a bunch of mud caked into every depression.
As I’m going over the engine, I discover the alternator rotor is missing altogether, but the stator is still in place. No problem, I’ll just chuck the K5 magneto in there and send it. I set the valve clearances by the timing marks on the rotor, seal it up, slap it in the frame, and start kicking (I delete the starters on these so I can use a tiny battery- plus kickstarting is straight gangster). It’s popping some and has compression and clean carbs, so why the hell is it spitting the gas back through the carbs and not running?
Long story truncated, I end up taking the head off to check the valves and seats (which are fine), and find that the left cylinder at TDC puts the timing mark on the rotor about 20° PAST the index mark for timing. For some reason I cannot fathom, the magneto rotors between 71 and 72 models are keyed differently. The keyway is the exact same size on the tapered crankshaft extension, so it fits right on, it just doesn’t line up.
Further research showed that they’re vastly different rotors in terms of the starter gearing on the backside as well.
This information will probably be of no use to anyone ever, but if it saves one person the hassle of cutting the cam chain and removing the head, or just junking a perfectly good motor out of ignorance, it’s been worth my time to type it out. My searches post-op have revealed no hits regarding this, so it should be out there in the world.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 24, 2020, 07:58:56 AM
Thanks for that Ash. The plot just thickened a bit read below.
CB450 K4 vs K5 alternator rotor swap- beware!
I think have heard about the keyway issue before Roy but I think Nigel Harris actually has a K5 setup on his Bomber and he's been into Bombers for a really long time, so I need to ask him if he modified anything to get everything to work reliably. It's a case of possibly modifying later parts or ditch having an electric starter altogether. The chances of finding decent K0 parts is pretty slim.
Post by: royhall on November 24, 2020, 08:16:22 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 24, 2020, 08:27:22 AM
I have been trying to compare your two rotors from the picture. The timing marks look the same in relation to the keyway but it is a bit hard to be sure. He's talking about a 20 degree error and it doesn't look anything like that. The part I need is really 31101-283-013 which covers later K0 to K4. Which one do you have there marked K0? Could I ask a big favour Ash, if I pay the postage both ways could I borrow both rotors to make sure my other parts fit. If it's certain that's the right part I will buy a new one from the pirate but need to be sure first as it's an expensive part. Cheers.
OK.... pretty heavy though ...and I will need to pack pretty well as the NOS 500T one owes me a few bob. The Bomber one is Jason's (Woodside on here) as we pooled our spare parts to try to come up with two sets for each of our bikes. Graham Curtis is looking into re-bushing the sprocket part for us using a hardened sleeve. He's just made a beautiful job of rebuilding a Bomber crank from one I donated to him.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/19998773432/permalink/10158733868393433/?comment_id=10158734015688433&reply_comment_id=10158734043888433
Post by: royhall on November 24, 2020, 05:34:46 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 24, 2020, 06:37:32 PM
I wonder if a knackered late sprocket wheel hub could be machined down to the size to fit the smaller aperture rotor and then hardened.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: royhall on November 24, 2020, 07:48:26 PM
Post by: royhall on December 14, 2020, 07:11:11 AM
I am going to reassemble it for now without the starter chain on so I can kickstart it and do the setting up work to get the project finished. But one way or another this is not going to be one of those fully restored Bombers that you see for sale that is perfect except it has no electric starter.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 14, 2020, 09:13:12 AM
Post by: royhall on December 14, 2020, 08:09:34 PM
K0 - Early 31101-283-003
K0 - Later 31101-283-013
K1 - 31101-292-003
K2 - 31101-292-670
K3 - 31101-292-003
K4 - 31101-292-003
K5 - 31101-346-670
K6 - 31101-346-670
K7 - 31101-346-670
I cant find dimensions for any of the above so am unable to match up to the sprag clutch I have got. Why the strange change at K2, don't get it really.
Post by: Bryanj on December 15, 2020, 07:56:56 AM
Post by: royhall on December 19, 2020, 09:13:11 AM
[attachimg=1]
Neither of these parts fit the sprag clutch that I have indicating that at some point in the past it has been upgraded to the later 5 speed parts. So the hunt is now on for a K1 to K4 rotor, not sure about the K2 as the part number is different.
Just to highlight the difficulty and confusion surrounding this part, CMS have this one up for sale that the part number has as late K0, but from the picture clearly isn't (note the part number at the top of the picture).
[attachimg=3]
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 19, 2020, 09:39:02 AM
The rotor with the thicker alloy tabs on the outside has the smaller dia. sprocket hub and was for early K0
The rotor with the thinner alloy tabs on the outside has the larger dia sprocket hub and used n later K0's and the 500T has the same style tabs
I just bought a later one from early 5 speed CB450 from DK and it has the thin tabs and the larger diameter sprocket hub.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: royhall on December 19, 2020, 09:46:11 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 19, 2020, 10:03:50 AM
[attachimg=1]
Post by: royhall on December 19, 2020, 10:42:23 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 19, 2020, 10:43:27 AM
According to Nigel Harris (a member here) .... In a post HondaTwins in 2009, he stated there that he has a K5 system fitted to his Bomber. I will try to contact him via email to confirm.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: royhall on December 19, 2020, 11:25:51 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 19, 2020, 11:41:31 AM
[attachimg=1]
Post by: royhall on December 19, 2020, 12:00:14 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 19, 2020, 12:19:51 PM
That looks stepped back from the outer diameter. If so that would be correct. I think they changed it to the thicker lugs to stop them snapping.
But all of the later rotors I have seen have thin lugs including the 500T? I have emailed Nigel Harris and Ray Hull to ask if the later parts deffo fit a K0. I thhought i had read somewhere that the really late rotors dont fit ...something to do with the key-way.
I think I am going to fit an old crank, barrells and pistons and strarter system to some old crankcases and load the other end of the crank up on a test rig at work .. just to check it out and also to test an early K0 used assemby that's from bits that Jason (Woodside) want for his press bike, from the parts he kindly sent to me.
Post by: royhall on December 19, 2020, 12:50:17 PM
Post by: royhall on December 20, 2020, 11:08:06 AM
[attachimg=1]
Don't know why it was priced differently as it turns out to be the same as the K1 to K4 items, some of which are over 700 Euros at CMS. The best part is it fits my starter clutch perfectly and the timing marks are correct. So that's all a bit of a result really.
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Not sure why but the rotor is stamped CP450 instead of CB450, the CP being the police bike version. First thoughts were that the police bike may have a higher output alternator to deal with radios and lights etc but it measures the same and the magnetism (although not scientific) feels the same whilst pulling a piece of mild steel off it.
So happy days, built up the rotor and starter clutch and refitted to the bike. The hope was that now the starter is correctly held on the shaft centre it would engage okay. I couldn't have been more wrong, it was actually worse. The starter would engage for a short time every fourth or fifth try, so that's a fail then. On stripping down again I found the sprocket drum to be worn about 4 thou, would that be enough to stop it working?
Anyway, after a 4 hour internet marathon I have turned up no parts whatsoever either new or old. Other than sit and wait for a possible DK unit, I am now at a loss for what to do. DK told me about a week ago that they didn't have any in stock nor have they got any CB450's in to strip at the moment. Plus there's probably hundreds of other owners worldwide looking for the same parts. I am surprised that nobody has come up with a way of adapting more modern parts to do the job as this problem has been around for a long time.
Any ideas would be most helpful thanks.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 20, 2020, 11:24:21 AM
The CP Police model has a 360° crank AFAIK.
Do you have the figure for the correct diameter of the sprocket part hub that you need?
[attachimg=1]
Post by: royhall on December 20, 2020, 11:39:09 AM
Post by: royhall on December 20, 2020, 11:42:00 AM
Post by: royhall on December 20, 2020, 01:24:15 PM
Post by: Bryanj on December 20, 2020, 03:22:09 PM
From memory, on 750, there is only just over a thou in difference between the deep end of the slot and the shallow end of the slot the roller sits in which would suggest anything over a thou wear is too much
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 20, 2020, 04:41:04 PM
How about the outer clutch part Roy ..is that OK? Item 7
[attachimg=1]
Post by: royhall on December 20, 2020, 05:15:30 PM
Post by: Bryanj on December 20, 2020, 08:07:20 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 20, 2020, 08:58:43 PM
Way back when i used to have to repair the odd 750 and several 500 twin you could see the gear looked like a threepenny piece(only more facets) whilst new were like a crankpin grind
Yes you are dead right Bryan.... One of the ones Jason sent me is like that and the one I just got from DK, I just checked and is almost as smooth as a crankpin. My original one is like Roy's ... smooth but obviously worn down BER.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 21, 2020, 07:54:33 AM
The smallest one is obviously for the early starter clutch.
I will measure the later one from DK tonight for you.
[attachimg=1]
This is the picture close up of the fooked alternator rotor from my 1967 Bomber. Definitely thin tabs and all the way to the outer edge i.e not stepped in.
[attachimg=2]
Post by: royhall on December 21, 2020, 08:12:39 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 21, 2020, 12:34:56 PM
Post by: Bryanj on December 21, 2020, 01:24:48 PM
Post by: royhall on December 21, 2020, 03:23:40 PM
Post by: royhall on December 22, 2020, 08:26:09 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 22, 2020, 09:46:53 AM
I agree the PO was ham fisted but in the case of the starter clutch on the K0 Bomber.... every one of them seems to be fooked unless they have been changed for the later parts or the engine is ultra low miles. You see lovely condition bikes for sale at prices around 7k and it says 'electric starter disconnected' ...we all know what that means.
That theory on the indents sound right...the hub from my bike was very smooth but the wear was horrendous in terms of reduced diameter. I reckon Jason's one with indents had effectivily 'grown' in diameter at the high points created.
As a backup .. Graham Curtis has a scrap sprocket hub of mine and is looking into machining it down and shrinking on a sleeve and grinding it back to the ideal diameter.
Post by: royhall on January 09, 2021, 11:18:57 AM
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
I fitted a new gasket to try to ensure I'm not going in there again. Not sure what it is with these bomber gaskets, I used a different make this time as the NE ones have all been too big. For some reason this one is even bigger but fits well otherwise. I have trimmed the outside down with a scalpel so I suppose it's better too big than too small. I'm wondering if the Bomber casings are slightly smaller than the K1 onwards items. That may account for it, and another thing to watch out for later. As you can see, a slight slip-up has caused a bit of minor damage to the paintwork which will have to be patched up when the weather is warm enough for painting.
Result, the starter now engages really well and spins the engine at a good speed with plugs in. That has been a difficult problem to overcome due to the complete lack of parts available. My plan is to use this bike in the summer so with that in mind I am starting to collect a box of spare parts to keep it on the road. At the top of that list will be replacement starter/alternator parts as they become available.
As my other bikes in the garage have been reluctant to start in this cold weather (although they all did) I think I may postpone trying to start the Bomber for now as I need to warm it up fully to strobe the timing and that would have to be done outside. No thanks, way too frosty for that I think.
Post by: taysidedragon on January 09, 2021, 11:53:03 AM
Post by: Bryanj on January 09, 2021, 12:00:05 PM
Post by: royhall on January 09, 2021, 12:09:18 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 09, 2021, 12:11:49 PM
I had a good result this week too ....I sold my NOS 500T rotor for 30 quid more than I paid for the nice condition DK complete 450 rotor/starter clutchassembly.
So we should both be sorted out now.
I will still keep my eyes out for any spare parts for you though ...in view of the fact there is no way you can kickstart.
Post by: royhall on January 09, 2021, 12:58:22 PM
Post by: royhall on January 18, 2021, 06:37:39 AM
Thanks for that Ash. The plot just thickened a bit read below.
CB450 K4 vs K5 alternator rotor swap- beware!
(https://www.redditstatic.com/desktop2x/img/renderTimingPixel.png)
The K5 engine I had on my CB500T framed cafe racer-ish fun bike was having transmission woes, and finally crapped the bed when 4th gear on the countershaft lost a chunk. I sourced a 71 CL450 engine that looks beautiful for it’s age, but has no history whatsoever. All I know is it came from a defunct dealership in Nebraska, and was on the original frame, albeit sporting a knobby rear tire and a bunch of mud caked into every depression.
As I’m going over the engine, I discover the alternator rotor is missing altogether, but the stator is still in place. No problem, I’ll just chuck the K5 magneto in there and send it. I set the valve clearances by the timing marks on the rotor, seal it up, slap it in the frame, and start kicking (I delete the starters on these so I can use a tiny battery- plus kickstarting is straight gangster). It’s popping some and has compression and clean carbs, so why the hell is it spitting the gas back through the carbs and not running?
Long story truncated, I end up taking the head off to check the valves and seats (which are fine), and find that the left cylinder at TDC puts the timing mark on the rotor about 20° PAST the index mark for timing. For some reason I cannot fathom, the magneto rotors between 71 and 72 models are keyed differently. The keyway is the exact same size on the tapered crankshaft extension, so it fits right on, it just doesn’t line up.
Further research showed that they’re vastly different rotors in terms of the starter gearing on the backside as well.
This information will probably be of no use to anyone ever, but if it saves one person the hassle of cutting the cam chain and removing the head, or just junking a perfectly good motor out of ignorance, it’s been worth my time to type it out. My searches post-op have revealed no hits regarding this, so it should be out there in the world.
Going back to this earlier post. I have the Bomber all built up and the Pamco ignition set on the start mark ready for strobing. The engine starts and runs okay and after a short warm ticks over at 1k. Now the fun bit, when I strobe the timing to get a precise setting the timing marks are way off ie.15 to 20 degrees. Now if that was a mechanical problem like the exhaust cam set wrongly the engine would not run okay. I fear the above post may correct as I now have a K2 rotor (1972). Does anyone have anymore information on this as I'm reluctant to use the bike with a timing rough setting. As the starter and alternator are now working okay (after a long expensive remedy) this setup will be staying. At worst I may have to borrow a K0 rotor and make a thin aluminium timing disk from it that I cant secure with the centre bolt when timing. What concerns me most is that I checked the cam position against the rotor before fitting the cam chain but surely at 20 degrees out the engine would run like a pig if at all. Tonight I will whip the plugs out and physically find TDC with a wood dowel and see where the rotor mark lands. The cam was set using the old damaged rotor but I didn't see any differences between the two. Any ideas?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 18, 2021, 09:48:04 AM
Just a thought .. is the static marker on the later stator you fitted in the same position as the K0 one? ..bit of a long shot I know.
Also when I am back at work Wednesday I can compare the timing marks on my later DK rotor with a Bomber one.
Post by: royhall on January 18, 2021, 10:15:44 AM
UPDATE. My old K0 stator doesn't have a pointer on it, that was one of the reasons I had to change it to a later model so I can't compare that.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 18, 2021, 11:47:51 AM
Ash. I think my damaged original one is possibly a later version as well. Will check this all out later today. Do you by any chance have a K0 exhaust cam and a later version to compare where the keyway for the points is. That could also be changed. Cheers.
UPDATE. My old K0 stator doesn't have a pointer on it, that was one of the reasons I had to change it to a later model so I can't compare that.
I will check the cams I have later Roy .. a mixed bag but I am sure I have both narrow and wide lobe versions.
Post by: royhall on January 18, 2021, 04:31:43 PM
What I would say though is the Pamco magnetic rotor is a real piss fit on the camshaft rod, but not so much that it would cause a 15 degree strobe error. My problem here is I would like to think it's a Pamco problem but no matter what the ignition system I am still strobing it on the HT lead to a fixed point on the crankshaft. When I try to retard the ignition to get to the marks it runs rougher and rougher then backfires and dies. Set it wrong again and it runs okay (but it is just a guess). Not sure where to go from here but I feel the only answer is the real K0 rotor has the markings 15 or so degrees further round? Can I take you up on your offer of borrowing your K0 rotor Ash and I will pay the postage. Hopefully it is different, if that's the case I will make a thin alloy disk with the correct markings that I can secure with the rotor centre bolt just whilst I strobe it. That would be an easy fix.
Just to try to prove the Pamco one way or another I could refit a points plate and condenser and try to strobe it again and see if I get the same result. But I would still be strobing on the same HT lead to the same marks? Baffling.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 18, 2021, 06:19:05 PM
Post by: royhall on January 18, 2021, 06:57:47 PM
Post by: royhall on January 22, 2021, 03:40:14 PM
Ash, did you get a chance to check the cams for differences.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 22, 2021, 09:29:33 PM
Ash, did you get a chance to check the cams for differences.
Problem is I am furloughed from where I work for 3-months (Yipeee! ;D ;D) and that's where all of my (their) decent measuring gear is.
I have tried my best as follows with the crap I have at home. The cams were positioned with the peak of the lobe at 12 o'clock.
This reminds me of when I was in a hotel room Shanghai in the early 90's.... our Chinese vendor at the 11th hour presented me with a mountain of failed PCB modules and all I had to test them with overnight was the 9v battery out of the TV remote, the HB lead out of the hotel freebie pencil (to use as a variable resistor) and my trusty Fluke 77 mulitmeter. Sure impressed the Chinese guys though once I got it sorted.
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Post by: royhall on January 23, 2021, 06:54:06 AM
Post by: royhall on January 23, 2021, 09:42:01 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 23, 2021, 11:48:15 AM
Just got a spare starter assembly from DK. Cost me £138, I think they have realised the value. He only dropped £5.95 on my offer then just £1 so I bought it. There was already 10 watching and it was only listed this morning. Nice to be first for a change.
Nice one Roy :).. I still think that was a good price ...The Yanks sell just the individual parts for that much ....then you have all the duties/shipping etc .... store as a spare and better than money in the bank if you don't need it.
Post by: royhall on January 23, 2021, 01:36:20 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 23, 2021, 03:29:09 PM
Post by: royhall on January 23, 2021, 04:48:22 PM
How much did you get for the 500T rotor?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 23, 2021, 05:00:20 PM
I shall clean it up and get it back on eBay as the rotor part is perfect. You never know it may pay for the new DK one.
£150 it was NOS though in the Honda packing. (Paid for my DK CB 450 rotor/clutch assembly) ...CMS are charging over £300 ;)
Post by: royhall on January 23, 2021, 05:57:08 PM
Post by: royhall on January 25, 2021, 04:07:45 PM
I tried to email PamcoPete for help but unfortunately he has retired and not answering emails. I'm told he was ripped off by another company that stole his designs and sold it cheaper so that finished his business. That and the fact he's USA based leads me to think the Pamco is a dead loss that has no chance of being refunded. At least I know what the problem is, now I need to sort a solution to the rough running problem. I'm thinking a Charlies Place electronic ignition as they appear to have rave reviews unlike the Pamco.
Post by: MrDavo on January 25, 2021, 04:28:18 PM
My CL450 is on the original clockwork ignition, she starts instantly and runs without missing a beat. I quite like the idea of using technology I can understand and therefore fix, electronic ignitions are great while they work, until suddenly they don't anymore.
Post by: royhall on January 25, 2021, 04:42:11 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 25, 2021, 04:47:05 PM
Post by: royhall on January 25, 2021, 05:00:51 PM
Post by: royhall on January 25, 2021, 06:12:22 PM
I thought I may email 4into1 who sold me the Pamco but just checked the invoice and I have had it for nearly 3 years. I think the warranty has expired. Where did all that time go, 3 years and the bloody thing still isn't on the road.
Post by: MrDavo on January 25, 2021, 08:21:27 PM
If you’re happy with your new fangled space age electronic ignition then go for it. However I’d prefer to limp home again rather than coast to a silent halt. Plus if I don’t understand it, the only way to fix it is to substitute parts, which can become expensive.
Post by: Andych on January 25, 2021, 09:54:12 PM
Post by: royhall on January 26, 2021, 07:39:40 AM
Post by: royhall on January 26, 2021, 04:31:16 PM
Post by: royhall on February 25, 2021, 04:33:17 PM
Just got a spare starter assembly from DK. Cost me £138, I think they have realised the value. He only dropped £5.95 on my offer then just £1 so I bought it. There was already 10 watching and it was only listed this morning. Nice to be first for a change.DK have defo realised the value of these things, the latest one they had on eBay just sold on an offer for £175. Ouch.
Post by: royhall on March 13, 2021, 09:58:49 AM
[attachimg=1]
It says in the instructions to static time it with a test light and not to strobe it as loosening the clamps with the engine running will loose earth and damage the unit. It took a bit of faffing about to get both sides to time correctly to the marks but got there in the end. The engine started easily and ran well, it just needed the throttle cable adjusting to get the slides lifting perfectly together. As it's not yet street legal all I could do was a quick run around the block. It appeared to run well with four good gears and brakes that work so am pretty pleased for a first run. At some point later I will check the timing with a strobe to check the advance is correct, and also check that the alternator is actually charging the battery.
I haven't cleaned it yet so it's covered in oily hand marks etc, but here are a few ropey pictures of the 99% finished bike.
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I am at present waiting to see what DVLA are going to do about the V5C so I can get on the road. I wont cover that again here as it has already been covered as a question here.
V5C (sohc.co.uk) (http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,24837.msg226769.html#msg226769)
I'm really going to have to leave the bikes for a while and get on with getting the driveway done. Looks a real mess in the pics. :(
Post by: hairygit on March 13, 2021, 10:09:39 AM
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Post by: Laverda Dave on March 13, 2021, 10:25:34 AM
Post a video when it's running, it will be good to hear it in the flesh.
Post by: royhall on March 13, 2021, 10:42:26 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on March 13, 2021, 10:57:38 AM
That ignition looks really neat too.
Post by: mick on March 13, 2021, 01:00:03 PM
Post by: royhall on March 13, 2021, 01:09:43 PM
Post by: Bryanj on March 13, 2021, 03:08:16 PM
Post by: robvangulik on March 13, 2021, 04:58:09 PM
Post by: Bryanj on March 13, 2021, 05:31:10 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 14, 2021, 11:01:58 AM
It also reminded me of my first Austin Cooper S DJC323E - the fastest S I ever owned - sadly now no longer in existance.
That was the time when the bikes became my second choice of transport mode.
Post by: smoothoperator on March 14, 2021, 06:18:47 PM
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on March 14, 2021, 06:53:57 PM
Post by: MrDavo on March 14, 2021, 07:42:13 PM
I was intrigued by the CB450 long before I’d ever seen one. A a teenager, once I’d got an interest in bikes, I’d borrowed a couple of service manuals from the local library. One was for the CB450, I was intrigued by torsion bars for some reason.
I always thought the early CB450 tanks were fugly, they looked upside down and back to front to me, but that’s why the yanks had to invent the CL version. Which reminds me, if you see a series on Sky called ‘Your Honour’ the first episode features a cafe racer built from a CL450 as far as I can see.
Post by: royhall on March 24, 2021, 07:31:12 AM
Now the strange bit, firstly on tick over the advance does not drop back fully, probably slightly off springs on the advancer. But that does not appear to affect starting or running. Secondly, it was running really well and idling at 1000rpm perfectly until I unclipped the strobe from the HT lead at which point it immediately fouled a plug? I changed the plug for a new one and its running fine again. Can anybody explain what happened there, really weird.
Post by: royhall on March 24, 2021, 07:38:01 AM
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I may have it on the road by Christmas in time for the next lockdown. ;D
Post by: Laverda Dave on March 24, 2021, 01:00:45 PM
I think I have a world of pain to come given your example!
Dave
Post by: MrDavo on March 24, 2021, 04:22:31 PM
(https://cdn2.adrianflux.co.uk/wp-fluxposure/uploads/2019/09/Thunderbird-2-5-780x438.jpg)
I notice that the DVLA require a 'Built Up Vehicle Report' for what they call a rebuild. I've never seen one, but I'm sure it doesn't apply to a restoration like Roy's but would be appropriate for Thunderbird 2 there. More on the line of 'does it have adequate brakes?', 'is it held together with sellotape /cable ties?' etc
Post by: Bryanj on March 24, 2021, 05:24:13 PM
Post by: royhall on March 24, 2021, 05:48:02 PM
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Post by: MCTID on March 25, 2021, 10:30:25 AM
It's a typical badly thought out Form IMHO...... it's loosely supposed to cover 'all eventualities' yet 90% of it will often be N/A......that wonderful term which Bureaucrats always hate. The fact that there is so little space to explain particular aspects next to the particular question and the fact that everything 'unusual' is expected to be thrown in at the end just begs for confusion and delays.....and always makes more work for Departments like the DVLA (maybe that's why they do it ) ?
I spent many years developing Forms in my career, and it isn't easy I'll admit, but the best check is to ask a group of people with different backgrounds to try and fill the Form in.......it's astonishing how 6 different people interpret a sentence with 6 different outcomes ! It certainly focuses your mind on how to ask the right questions and the best way to ask them !
I also dealt with many kinds of 'Certificates of Conformity' where a production run of scores of Castings or Forgings, or hundreds of metres of steel bar or plate were produced from one batch of molten metal and the Manufacturer was 'Certifying' that the components which you had bought had been tested and found to comply with the Specified Requirements. These C of C's were a Legal Document and falsifying them could lead to prosecution if it was found to be fraudulent. Companies who practised such falsifications soon went out of business.
The other problem with Forms like the V627/1 is that they take no account of the integrity of the person completing it. If a Professional issues a Structural Survey or a Medical Diagnosis they always note their Qualifications which adds weight to their findings, and gives confidence to the reader.
You don't need to be a qualified Doctor or a Professor of Chemistry to complete a Form like the V627/1, but maybe having to provide some background of who you are, how long you have lived at your address (or previous addresses) whether you have done this exercise before and the fact that you agree and accept that you could be prosecuted for providing false information and/or prohibited from making further applications in future if you knowingly provide false information would take the onus off the DVLA and putting it firmly on the Applicant would probably make the process easier as it would prevent fraudulent applications....which has to be the whole point of this unwieldy system.
Just my slant on things having now seen the V627/1 Form, which If I was a Director at DVLA, I'd be investigating the % of Applications which are rejected, and providing some proper training to the person(s) drafting such Forms !
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 25, 2021, 10:45:52 AM
Post by: royhall on March 25, 2021, 10:53:15 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 25, 2021, 11:23:09 AM
Don't forget Ash I also had a V5 which they have got. I think I shouldn't have been honest about the engine number change and done that later after the V5C had arrived. It will get there in the end, although I had far less hassle registering two bikes from abroad. 1 from Holland and one from USA, just sailed through.
Yes I guess I will have to tell them about my engine number change sometime ... so they may ask me for a receipt for the replacement ...hopefully no more. Good thing about Bombers is the engine & frame numbers are miles apart so you are not scratting to find a set cases 'in range'
Problem is ...you can phone DVLA ne time and they bend over back wards to help you .. then you phone another time and you get a total pen-pushing numpty who it seems puts ever obstacle in your way to prevent you getting a V5C. The latter was my experience with the CB250G5
Post by: royhall on March 25, 2021, 11:26:52 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 25, 2021, 12:40:56 PM
Yes they wanted a receipt for the new engine. I told them it's only the cases changed and the rest of the engine is original. I sent them pictures of the replacement cases. That should confuse them no end, original engine but the numbers changed. Deerrrr.
I think I will get my bike dealer mate to 'sell' me my engine ;D
Post by: royhall on April 03, 2021, 09:15:56 AM
Post by: royhall on April 21, 2021, 06:52:45 PM
After 7 weeks of waiting the Bombers V5C has finally arrived. All the details are correct including the engine number change but unfortunately they forgot to make it "Historic Vehicle". So a little trip to the post office and it's now taxed and the V5C is on it's way back to DVLA. After all you cant expect the DVLA to get it completely right first go.
I will check online tomorrow to see if it's tax status has changed, if so I can finally get on with the setup work. I registered my 750F2 for Historic status at the post office on 1st April and am still waiting for that V5C to return.
Can the vehicle be used before the V5 returns as the MOT status online is showing as unknown.
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 21, 2021, 07:15:14 PM
Post by: royhall on April 21, 2021, 07:58:02 PM
It appears from the paperwork that when dealing with the DVLA you must never ever use the words rebuilt or rebuilding. Your safe with repaired or restored, but to DVLA rebuilt means something completely different and will cause you a world of pain.
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 21, 2021, 08:28:56 PM
Yes they did, stapled to a declaration of MOT exemption. It's been insured under my classic policy all through the restoration.😂😂😂😂😂😂
It appears from the paperwork that when dealing with the DVLA you must never ever use the words rebuilt or rebuilding. Your safe with repaired or restored, but to DVLA rebuilt means something completely different and will cause you a world of pain.
Post by: Bryanj on April 22, 2021, 12:51:29 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 22, 2021, 07:20:46 AM
What's you advice on mine? I have the V5C in my name (from a 1967 frame I had) but it states the original engine number. The cases I have for it are fairly close to the original and luckily, for some reason, all UK bombers have their engine ad frame numbers miles apart, so the cases are definitely 'age related'. When I make the V5C change for the replacement engine ..... do I act like I have swapped all of the engine parts over from the original as you described or just state that the engine has been replaced and get a 'sales receipt' for it?
There was a time when you just made a simple change of engine number but I guess from recent experiences and yours that the the DVLA have become more snaggy recently on engine changes.
Post by: royhall on April 22, 2021, 07:40:07 AM
I wasn't originally going to change the engine number until I got a V5C, but due to the original having the number missing and me suspecting that it wasn't the original engine I thought I would come clean and change it now. My original may have been taken and already used in another bike causing the DVLA computer to flag up a problem. Does that make sense.
I would go with the replacement engine receipt if one is available. But wait until the bike is built as it may cause an inspection request. It's a bloody minefield these days, mainly due to the huge number of vehicles being stolen and ringed or split for parts (thank eBay for that).
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 22, 2021, 08:26:23 AM
Post by: royhall on May 22, 2021, 11:16:36 AM
Post by: royhall on January 14, 2024, 05:44:36 PM
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Post by: Oddjob on January 14, 2024, 05:50:44 PM
Post by: royhall on January 14, 2024, 05:54:59 PM
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Post by: Oddjob on January 14, 2024, 06:03:54 PM
Post by: royhall on January 14, 2024, 06:04:53 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 14, 2024, 06:22:19 PM
PS I'm dark haired.
Post by: Oddjob on January 14, 2024, 09:20:06 PM
Post by: royhall on January 14, 2024, 10:07:31 PM
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 14, 2024, 10:27:13 PM
The float height is measured from the join between the bowl and the body so if you reduce the level it closes off the fuel the float sits higher not lower, higher means more fuel in the bowl, of course I may be on the road to senility 😀😀
I'm talking about the height of the fuel in the bowl so we are at cross purposes with the same outcome.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 14, 2024, 10:30:23 PM
If so, a weaker spring will give more air to same throttle opening that will draw less fuel under same rpm. It'll trim it to run leaner even with the same jet and needle.
There may be an alternative ftom another carb to fit and try.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 14, 2024, 11:03:45 PM
Pretty sure I got advice off Facebook 450 group on this too ... will check.
https://www.vintagehondatwins.com/forums/index.php?threads/cb500t-carbs-on-a-bomber-k0.4360/
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Post by: royhall on January 15, 2024, 02:27:20 PM
Post by: royhall on January 15, 2024, 02:43:29 PM
Long search in a cold damp lockup coming my way. The old 500T carb parts are in there somewhere. If I can find them I can take one out of the bike to compare.
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 16, 2024, 08:40:48 AM
It didn't include those air screws and the airscrew on the 500T is totally different from the original 450K0 one.
Please see pics of the Honda UK bulletin and the parts I would have sold you.
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Post by: royhall on January 16, 2024, 08:46:30 AM
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 16, 2024, 08:48:59 AM
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]
Post by: royhall on January 18, 2024, 09:58:12 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 18, 2024, 11:18:36 AM
Ash. When you did the 500 carbs for that guy what internals did you use. Were they the standard 500 jets and needles or did you swap in the 450 bits just leaving the mixture screws as 500. Did the guy ever get back to you to say how it was running.
I fitted the NOS parts from the same kit I sold you and 130 main jets. But obviously the air screws were different style to the K0 ones .. so I cleaned up the original 500T ones, and fitted a new(tiny) O-ring.
Annoyingly, after considerable effort I suspect he has never tried them. I really must call him. I went to all of the effort because his friends rallied round told me he was feeling really low and badgered me to put a set of carbs together.
Post by: royhall on January 18, 2024, 11:27:34 AM
Post by: royhall on February 13, 2024, 04:22:57 PM
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The silver centre part of the casting is actually some sort of valve that the diaphragm rod presses against. After a bit of cogitation I decided to leave the diaphragm housing alone. So instead of trying to randomly block off holes and make a mess, I decided to make an aluminium plate to cover the three ports and just leave the casting off. This has the added benefit of being easily reversed should needs arise. It also makes the carb look a bit more like a 450 item.
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That's the easy side done, the right hand side needs the carb removing to get at it as the diaphragm housing is on the inside between the carbs. That's a job for another day.
Post by: mo goldie on February 13, 2024, 11:47:01 PM
I thought the Bomber did Not have them ? thought that they were the later Carbs ?
Oh can I ask might be a silly thing but how do the petrol Tank feed each side of it as seems to leave loads in the left side of it when the right is empty ? there is a blanked off bolt in the left side but how do that link to the right side ? have you got any pictures to show how please. also still need some help on what rectifier to use as well ?
Cheers Mo
Oh just seen the rest of the thread..did Not Know you were trying out 500T carbs sorry Roy.......but help with the other would be great ;D
Post by: royhall on February 14, 2024, 02:52:09 PM
Yes they are a 500T carb experiment that so far is not going too well. Hopefully removing the air cut off valves will cure the problem. Just re-looking at the advice that Ash sought on Facebook, and I'm not sure I agree with what was said. They mentioned that the cut off valves introduce extra air on the over-run to stop exhaust popping, that's not my understanding. I'm fairly sure they introduce extra petrol to enrich the mixture past the point of ignition so it cant burn in the exhaust header. Hence my running rich problem, and why I'm removing them. Will find out once the jobs done and the weather allows a run out.
On the other point about the tank. Bombers don't have a cross pipe to level the fuel, they just use the braking and accelerating of the bike to slosh the fuel to the other side. Typical 60's Honda.
Post by: mo goldie on February 14, 2024, 11:37:26 PM
Thanks for that I thought having that blanked off bolt in the tank was it should have had a crossover pipe of some sort to get the fuel over the other side of the Tank where the Tap is,
oh I got some carb kits from wemoto and have put them in so hope they ok as some things did look different to the old ones, and the old ones things like the needles were bent so did Not know where to go to get some originals ones...... don't know how she will run with the new ones as they had needle clips so I have put them on the middle position.
Ashley
did get back to me about the rectifier and said the one I put on the link was good to use.... how all go`s well with that too....can`t try it all out till my cases come back from the sprayer.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 15, 2024, 11:09:35 PM
Hi Mo.
Yes they are a 500T carb experiment that so far is not going too well. Hopefully removing the air cut off valves will cure the problem. Just re-looking at the advice that Ash sought on Facebook, and I'm not sure I agree with what was said. They mentioned that the cut off valves introduce extra air on the over-run to stop exhaust popping, that's not my understanding. I'm fairly sure they introduce extra petrol to enrich the mixture past the point of ignition so it cant burn in the exhaust header. Hence my running rich problem, and why I'm removing them. Will find out once the jobs done and the weather allows a run out.
This is what Cycle World said about the carbs in 1975 (plus the whole article if anyone is interested in the CB500T itself).
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Post by: royhall on February 16, 2024, 07:32:09 AM
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Post by: royhall on February 18, 2024, 02:08:19 PM
Ash. Putting that aluminium disk in wont work either as the plate valve behind will stay in the over-run position and be horribly over rich all the time. You just need to blank the small port above that disk with a piece of rubber the same diameter as the o-ring, then reassemble the valve as stock with the diaphragm in place. That's job done.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 19, 2024, 07:29:06 AM
Mick Taylor on here got hold of a 2.5k mile only '67 Bomber a few years back and after he balanced the carbs with some flow-meters, he had that bike ran beautifully if I remember correctly. So the 14C carbs can be made to operate nicely, particularly with the Honda UK mod kit that I sold you to cure the 4k flat spot.
Post by: royhall on February 19, 2024, 07:35:18 AM
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 19, 2024, 08:52:49 AM
I have got a set of 450 carbs on the way (not sure which model will see when they arrive) so I am going to strip all the new bits back out of the 500 units to reuse. I will order two genuine seal kits from DSS at some point. Also got an ultrasonic bath coming so I can save having to pay people to do them. Cheeky to ask, but are you still doing your own zinc plating as I could do with some small carb bits doing.
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Think I have a load of 450 carb bits I had replated at Allenchrome .. may have spares ... I will check.
Post by: royhall on February 19, 2024, 04:04:33 PM
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Post by: royhall on March 03, 2024, 04:59:55 PM
[attachimg=1]
The new carbs are 14H models originally off a 450K1. After a good bit of checking there are a fairly large number of different 450K carbs all with slightly differing internals (and externals). So I have ordered some service kits from 4into1 in the States that are made specifically for the 14H. Failing that I will have no idea if the parts I'm fitting are correct. I am done with experimenting with these carbs and just want a good standard set. I was a bit worried about the right hand carb as the H next to the 14 has been removed with some sort of gouge. But after much checking of 14H pictures on the internet, I am happy that it is correct. There are also other things that indicate they are off the same bike as both carb vacuum bowls have the same rusty cap head screws. Will see how they come up.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 03, 2024, 06:22:41 PM
I would be inclined to fit the genuine Keihin brass-ware I sold you. Lot of bad reports about pattern parts , particularly needles.
Post by: royhall on March 03, 2024, 07:45:24 PM
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 03, 2024, 09:12:55 PM
Post by: royhall on March 03, 2024, 09:24:57 PM
Ash, don't know if it matters but those service parts are for 14C carbs. I am assuming the later carbs already came with the modified parts but I have no way of checking that. I have options here, I will try the kits first and if that's problematic I will fit the genuine bits, then I could clean and try the bits that are in the carbs now. The last option is not a good one as I have no idea if they have been messed with in the past.
I still haven't read anywhere about the vacuum springs, looks like a mod that not many do.
Post by: mo goldie on March 04, 2024, 12:44:09 AM
got all my cases back and now on looks great.... just got her up and running but Not to well, both carbs set up of the bike and then put on and set mix screws 1 1/2 out runs but when you rev it up and revs come down it hangs around the 2.000 mark then come down to settle around the 1,000 to 1,200 mark............. have you got any Ideas what it might be..... oh I have set it up with a colortune and got it a lovely blue with the mix screws both out around the 1 turn out mark Now.
also Not sure if its charging changing the subject as battery go`s flat after a few go`s on the starter Button..... I Know its Not the battery as that has been checked out ............. so Not sure about any probs with the Rectifier or maybe the stator .... don't Know how to check them out Not up on electrics to be Honest :'(
Cheers
Mo
Post by: royhall on March 04, 2024, 07:45:45 AM
Post by: royhall on March 04, 2024, 06:45:24 PM
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Post by: mo goldie on March 04, 2024, 10:13:34 PM
yes the electronic ign is all on and working ok, the springs were all checked when I done the ign so they are ok and the clutch cable is not in the way...... the spring in the Vacuum chamber they was None in them so No I have Not got any of them Pity I would have put some in as I say if it came with them :-[
the carb kits I got were from Wemoto and had the Needles with clips so set them at 3 up from bottom and the air screws were as I said set with a colortune and think they were out about 1 turn out in the end ...... wonder if Ashley had some kits would have got them :(
but the other thing is the charging as I don`t think it is as the battery after using the E/start a few times brings the Battery down...... Not sure how to check it as I don`t think by putting a meter across the battery tells me anything so don`t know how to check out the charging system ..again pity you Boy`s were Not anywhere near me for a look at if you know what I Mean.
Post by: royhall on March 05, 2024, 06:26:16 AM
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Esohc%2Eco%2Euk%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D25561%2E0&share_tid=25561&share_fid=50581&share_type=t&link_source=app
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 05, 2024, 08:31:36 AM
Forgot to say, the kits I have ordered are made in Taiwan by a company called Daminedin and they have really good reviews. The dodgy items that people are struggling with are the Keyster kits. I also wonder if people are assuming that all 450 carbs are the same, there are at least 4 different versions of these carbs (not including the 500T version) and only a kit made specifically for that carb type will fit correctly. The ones I have ordered are specific for 14H and 14L only. I'm not surprised people are having problems with 450 carb kits. I have a chart somewhere detailing a lot of the changes, I will look for it tomorrow and post it here.
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What are the significant differences Roy? Could it be that they are related to the K1 and 5-speed engine components/characteristics? I would have thought that the needle and it's associated jets could be used on the later carbs and therefore closely match the original K0 engine characteristics. Problem is, I have a few K0 carbs (and 500T ones) but no later ones to compare the differences.
Post by: royhall on March 05, 2024, 09:04:53 AM
[attachimg=1]
Post by: mo goldie on March 06, 2024, 12:19:40 AM
Thanks for that but still can`t work out as the Bomber has Not got a Regulator I need to go more into how the wires come out of the stator and then go into the rectifier colour wise.......
the other thing you said about was the springs for the vacuum ...where can I get two them from as it might help with shutting of the slides faster and might help with the revs coming down quicker ?
I think that the wiring get beyond me as looked at the diagram and it more like the Birmingham road layout..... Not good with electrics :(
Post by: Bryanj on March 06, 2024, 08:09:33 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 06, 2024, 08:39:50 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 06, 2024, 09:19:16 AM
Hi Roy
Thanks for that but still can`t work out as the Bomber has Not got a Regulator I need to go more into how the wires come out of the stator and then go into the rectifier colour wise.......
the other thing you said about was the springs for the vacuum ...where can I get two them from as it might help with shutting of the slides faster and might help with the revs coming down quicker ?
I think that the wiring get beyond me as looked at the diagram and it more like the Birmingham road layout..... Not good with electrics :(
I thought I had sent you the colour matching of the old and new alternators Mo?
If not I will sort it out tonight for you. It's a fairly simple system really.
Sadly, I had quite a stock of the rare carbs piston return springs but they all went pretty quickly and I don't have any spares left. I even sold a set to Penelope Keith's husband ! :D So he must have a Bomber. 16186-283-305 was the part number if you can find them.
I was selling the whole upgrade kit at one point but only have the odd part left now.
Post by: mo goldie on March 06, 2024, 07:09:32 PM
I seemed to have lost where they went now... but if you can refresh me with it all would be great, as for the Carb kits that would have been good to have them, it was Roy who said about the springs as mine never had any in the carbs but I think they would help in keeping the slides down a bit faster to the bottom,
well My problem was the Needles Ash as in mine they were bent but when I got the new ones they came with the circlips on the Needles so just set them at 3 up.... as the ones in there were the same as you have in the picture which are fixed.
getting back to the charging I went and had a look at again today engine running battery went from 12.8 Volts engine off then 12.3 engine running put lights on and went down to 11.8 ....so I Know its Not Charging.... oh the Battery is as New and is an AGM .....
Oh I wonder if he has taken her on the back of the 450 :)
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 06, 2024, 09:53:55 PM
Post by: mo goldie on March 06, 2024, 10:35:34 PM
all clear but I don`t have a red/white .........just white I think will have a look tomorrow ;D
Pity about your carb kits ....... have you still got any of the needles without the circlips the ones in your picture ?
Cheers
Mo
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 06, 2024, 10:51:22 PM
Pity about your carb kits ....... have you still got any of the needles without the circlips the ones in your picture ?
Cheers
Mo
May have needles and tubes .. can't promise though until I check.
Post by: mo goldie on March 06, 2024, 11:28:45 PM
Oh don`t know what size the bomber springs are or what size theas ones are I wonder :-*
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335203976650?itmmeta=01HRB1WEMP89W8CN1VW5XJH4FK&hash=item4e0bb6c5ca:g:Vx4AAOSwzStlnpn0&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwMaiIzqAYJiMQ6uBZWamOQK1l5vaQuEhI9U4HgsUVXipCA2s6va98kBdtEcLLNnbejDFlqaC0lRyWXMoQvaadek9m7CUgW2J%2B0Ys45rpbmw3StgqWvf1pX4qIWjp2vXkCQwBClJz8TaxuOuociwxlSYOQrMhmySUMr8Z1FWielVwo5sTp7AeE1b0xsJODZFT0P%2Bs9FfJdA%2FXcQGCoZGr3rn5nQIq3lR7XituEEXh69TTE7T4Et9KL11Urxu1heeItQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR77q8eHCYw
Post by: royhall on March 07, 2024, 07:24:30 AM
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Post by: mo goldie on March 07, 2024, 12:09:27 PM
Oh update as Of just Now lol..... been out and had a look at the wiring Ash to the colors you said about and yes all seems Fine BUT ......... if you look at the two pictures you will see just done a test and the plug under the seat which go`s to the rectifier I put a Continuity test from that pink down to the pink in the plug down under the toolbox and there is NONE Tried it with ign on and off and Nothing..... done it with the yellow and Brown and No probs all fine ..... don`t know what that's all about seems very strange to me ..but Not up on electrics MUCH >:(
Post by: Johnny4428 on March 08, 2024, 08:18:59 AM
Post by: mo goldie on March 08, 2024, 06:32:37 PM
It`s a Bradded Earth which is about 6mm think and inside sleeving so one of the best Earth`s you can have,,, but thanks for you observation ;D
But I am stumped at the minute as can`t work out why I can`t get that pink to not marry up with the other end.....will have to have a better look soon as that Must be why it is Not charging.... everything else I have use advise from Ashley & Roy`s experience with Black Bombers but I am getting there and love the bike.......
Post by: Johnny4428 on March 08, 2024, 06:37:31 PM
Post by: mo goldie on March 08, 2024, 07:00:50 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 09, 2024, 06:10:23 PM
No they won't do Mo. I think I may have a spare set somewhere but may take me a while to find them.
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I found some of the NOS upgrade parts Mo.
Bit busy at the moment with Cathy's play she has on but will sort out what I have spare in the next couple of days.
Post by: mo goldie on March 09, 2024, 09:24:54 PM
well that will be great thank you ;D
Update on the charging ... ok NOT Charging then .... been working on it today again and went though the wire so made sure I got the colours right as per your instructions LOL.
well this is still Not done anything as the Battery starts off at 12.8 V and get bike running and that go`s down Not even stay the same or go up as ends up about 11.85 V put lights on and it go`s to 11.5 V so i Know there is Nothing going in ha .............. don't Know what to do next Tried all I Know but cant be the battery as had that checked out and as soon as the Bike stops running the battery go`s back up to 12.8 or if I put a trickle charger on it go`s up and just stays there............ but i have tried as I say......... don`t know if it could be the stator or what ?????
oh yellow to yellow from stator to loom ....pink to Brown from stator..... and white to red and green from rectifier to earth :(
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 10, 2024, 11:21:09 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 10, 2024, 11:45:56 AM
Is the regulator anything like the 400 unit that you can adjust the output voltage on or is there no DC output voltage?
Totally different charging system Ted ... single phase 400/500/750 are three phase.
Post by: mo goldie on March 10, 2024, 11:47:25 AM
Black Bombers never had a Regulator unless you fitted one so No mine don`t have one. On saying that I think Roy fitted one on his tho.
Just been down today and just took all the tank side panel's air filters off carbs etc... as that Nice Bloke Ashley is getting me some Carb parts sorted as Not happy with the running of the bike in General been told that there was an upgrade kit to help the bike run better fingers crossed ;D
wish I could just find out what's wrong with the dam charging..... I have anther Rectifier which Ash said would do the job so have a look at the pictures Ash and tell me where to put the wires please you know colours on what pins lol. IE. yellow...pink.... brown out of the old Harness as they been put in the plug under the tool box in the new wires on the newer Stator. oh thats all I got with the wiring Diagram for the rectifier.
And Thanks again Ashley for sorting the carb bits out when you get a chance just let me know..... Oh Hows Cathy's play going :)
Cheers Mo
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 10, 2024, 11:53:31 AM
So a lot of people connect the night time charge booster coil in permanently. as in this diagram.
To ovoid overcharging though it is best to fit a current dumping' regulator as fitted to later 5-speed 450's and CB250/350K. Like this : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204329106467.
There are also aftermarket combined rectifier/regulator combinations but I have no experience of using them.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: mo goldie on March 10, 2024, 11:56:17 AM
just can you tell me what colours to go on what pins LOL on that new rectifier please that's what I need to Know.
Oh got to go out now Mothers day LOL :)
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 10, 2024, 12:39:43 PM
Hi Ash
just can you tell me what colours to go on what pins LOL on that new rectifier please that's what I need to Know.
Oh got to go out now Mothers day LOL :)
OK Yellow and Pink goes to AC on your rectifier. + and - DC out of rectifier go to the battery.
But what I was trying to tell you is that due to weakened magnestism on stator with age, you may not get a full daylight charge into your battery.
Post by: royhall on March 10, 2024, 12:44:14 PM
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 10, 2024, 01:16:02 PM
Sorry Mo I don't have a spare set of springs. I knew I had two bags and thought there was a set in each unfortunately there's only one in each bag. They are available from 4into1 in the States but the postage is the problem. If there are other parts you need you could combine them to make it affordable.
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Sorry... Bit of a blank from me too Mo as the NOS needles I have are from another Honda model.
Probably got two decent used and not bent needles you can have though once I dig them out.
Post by: mo goldie on March 10, 2024, 06:13:23 PM
Oh yes bad news then :( oh well ......... worth a look ha..... I have took the carbs back off now so if you got a couple of Needles Ash or anything else would be better than the ones with clips do you think ?
and the link you sent for the regulator it looks the same as the one`s used on my Kawasaki KH400 and I think I have two of them somewhere but have Not got a clue as to how to put one of them in the wiring system..... Not my thing Electrics really....
still can`t find out the whereabouts of that pinkish looking wire go`s on the wiring loom thats comes out were the battery is to go to the old rectifier ?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 10, 2024, 07:45:01 PM
Post by: mo goldie on March 10, 2024, 11:46:25 PM
So if I do this and can I join the yellow and pink together at where it comes out of the loom in near the rectifier and put the both into the rectifier .......... if so do I have to take the wires out of the Ign switch ?
Oh the other thing you said about the magnetism well the rotor it has a newer one on from a K5 and a spanner sticks to it like Glue and hard to pull off so that should be ok ....as far as i Know anyway.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 11, 2024, 12:03:23 AM
Hi AshNo, you wouldn't have to do anything at the ignition switch. If you have decent magnetism in the rotor though you should get enough charge without joining the wires. Might be worth a quick try though to see if you get decent charge with the yellow connected to pink (original loom colours)
So if I do this and can I join the yellow and pink together at where it comes out of the loom in near the rectifier and put the both into the rectifier .......... if so do I have to take the wires out of the Ign switch ?
Oh the other thing you said about the magnetism well the rotor it has a newer one on from a K5 and a spanner sticks to it like Glue and hard to pull off so that should be ok ....as far as i Know anyway.
Post by: mo goldie on March 11, 2024, 12:11:46 AM
i will have a look tomorrow and disconnect the ign switch and see if I get continuity from that pink to where it comes out of the loom at the ign switch......
are these kits any good as they dont look to have the needle clips like the ones I have ? but I would still use my old jets tho ?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223708031717?itmmeta=01HRNCXPKYDYM6MWVK6ENEZVH4&hash=item341609aae5:g:vukAAOSwRLxlDb2U&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwCzwyvR0YLI8kDlFzJXTXSasVL9%2FrKcAIsP%2FJupqpnOrZ5JmY25T66Rl8LHMSCu62RhBzAgwt1SfPXtO9JwUhRm0QT1m2hSZ9KKxY3UCuP2ES32mLv2wrxA4QRWbu8aROYWtfu4kqcUDg3JdvlWmc%2FJfYIw76eXoREGhVKj%2FqJjlt95cJijLCiTZNpcNCJRMc4pscMgzJ2SPtrj09D8h7ogxLbAWZye5mTh%2Bs%2FeQwu9YHQS0JDHrKh0ewYUMejjqmA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5Lq9qzFYw
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 11, 2024, 07:50:14 AM
yes Ok
i will have a look tomorrow and disconnect the ign switch and see if I get continuity from that pink to where it comes out of the loom at the ign switch......
are these kits any good as they dont look to have the needle clips like the ones I have ? but I would still use my old jets tho ?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223708031717?itmmeta=01HRNCXPKYDYM6MWVK6ENEZVH4&hash=item341609aae5:g:vukAAOSwRLxlDb2U&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwCzwyvR0YLI8kDlFzJXTXSasVL9%2FrKcAIsP%2FJupqpnOrZ5JmY25T66Rl8LHMSCu62RhBzAgwt1SfPXtO9JwUhRm0QT1m2hSZ9KKxY3UCuP2ES32mLv2wrxA4QRWbu8aROYWtfu4kqcUDg3JdvlWmc%2FJfYIw76eXoREGhVKj%2FqJjlt95cJijLCiTZNpcNCJRMc4pscMgzJ2SPtrj09D8h7ogxLbAWZye5mTh%2Bs%2FeQwu9YHQS0JDHrKh0ewYUMejjqmA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5Lq9qzFYw
No experience of them Mo but Roy mentioned them earlier as getting good reports and I think he got some. I always tend to use Keihin either new or used.
A bit worrying that they say 1965-1968 as 68 carbs are definitely different to the earlier 4-speed carbs.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 11, 2024, 07:56:45 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 11, 2024, 08:00:41 AM
Those needles in the listing photo don't have any needle clip grooves - presumably the fitting is different to my 500?Totally different arrangement to 500/4 .. fit into the CV piston not a conventional slide.
Post by: royhall on March 11, 2024, 08:07:01 AM
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 11, 2024, 09:54:04 AM
Never used them (yet) but they do get very good reviews. Just double check they are for the correct carbs, these are for genuine Bomber carbs if that's what your running.
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How come they list the same set for the '68 Roy.. presumably a 5 speed? Looks a bit confusing to me.
Post by: royhall on March 11, 2024, 10:17:08 AM
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Post by: mo goldie on March 11, 2024, 10:28:40 AM
Well here are the results from my wires, done what you said Ash see what you
continuity.
try pink to pink No ........... brown to pink yes........ yellow and brown yes..... strange but I am confused Now :(
oh Yes Roy Carbs are both 14c so I ordered a pair but said postage going to take till April to may :(
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 11, 2024, 10:46:59 AM
You then need to check for continuity of the yellow and pink wires at the switch.
Disconnect battery then With switch in OFF position
i.e. probe on the yellow wire at the loom end connector and other probe on yellow wire at the switch
i.e. probe on the pink wire at the loom end connector and other probe on pink wire at the switch
With switch in lighting position
You should have continuity between the pink and yellow wires.
Post by: mo goldie on March 11, 2024, 10:51:47 AM
yes I will check that out thanks again..got to go out now but should do that later on and let you Know.
Cheers
Mo
Post by: mo goldie on March 11, 2024, 06:50:38 PM
Pink at ign switch but that was disconnected.. to the stator end yes continuity there. Brown at ign to brown
at the stator and rectifier Yes to that too....Yellow at ign to stator and rectifier yes to that too.
Ign switch back on the connect yellow to pink on light switch on yes they do connect when switched to that's lighting circuit.
the thing I can`t get is that wire on the right of the block at the Rectifier which looks as if someone has put some paint on to make it look like a pink wire..... I have traced that back were it comes out of the loom beside the battery which is a pink and white.....
Now when you look at the rectifier do them wires look right to you guy`s if you look at the 1st picture that's the one come out near the battery loom.... and the 2nd picture is where it comes out at the Rectifier end from the loom... I know that it is right by the colours That we said about earlier what comes from the stator end so are they right now but at the rectifier side ? hope this makes sense to someone.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 12, 2024, 09:11:48 AM
If it was me I would do a test to try and establish if your 5-Speed alternator is performing as it should, taking the wiring loom/ignition switch out of the equation. I would get lengths of wire black, red and one other colour and wire the alternator directly to the rectifier (with the 3rd colour wire) and then the rectifier DC output (i.e + and -) directly to the battery (with black and red wires). Connect the PINK wire to one of the AC terminals on the rectifier. Firstly, only connect the YELLOW alternator wire to the other AC terminal of the rectifier. Run the engine and monitor the volts at the battery with your multimeter switched to DC volts. If the readings are not good (i.e no significant increase in voltage when you rev the engine) then also connect the WHITE wire into the rectifier and do the same test with the multimeter. This will put the full output of the alternator into the rectifier. If you don't get a decent charge then it's a suspected faulty alternator stator. If you get a decent charge with both alternator coils in circuit but not with just the yellow wire connected then I would suspect weak rotor magnets.
NOTE !!! Colours are for your 5-Speed replacement stator and NOT the original Bomber K0 stator.
Hope this helps !
[attachimg=1]
Post by: mo goldie on March 12, 2024, 11:34:45 AM
You make it sound so simple lol confused I am........ well I will have to put the carbs all back on at some point to get it running and give that a try so thanks for the drawing as I need something to go by lol.
wish the bit I don`t get my head around is the Electrics...... but I Must get it done by next month I think the 23rd as a yearly small bike show at a Pub and want to take the Honda...... pity about the carb parts tho, as the ones that are coming wont be here till end of April or into may then i will have to take them all off again to sort them out..... Not to bad tho as they were £17;99 for the two kits.... anyway I will see how things go and thanks again for all your help...you will get fed up with me with this problem as I just can`t get my head around it all.
Oh if you mean the black wire...... its the one left in the plug is brown ( looks Black )...yellow... and pink ish lol
Post by: royhall on March 12, 2024, 11:57:32 AM
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 12, 2024, 12:09:19 PM
Post by: mo goldie on March 12, 2024, 07:27:46 PM
we know that help nowadays is hard to come by, I do try and do everything myself,,, but like the charging it gets
a bit of a nightmare for me. but you have both given me hope that there is some good people out there to help.
I have already made up the wiring at both ends from Alternator to the Rectifier Ash......... just need to put them
Carbs back on and do a on the bench set up and then the tank back on as not got a remote petrol bottle then should be good to go.....
so thanks again to you both ;D
and thanks Ash for the needles in advance ...... I don't know but I have got coming just one Vacum spring off a honda CBR400 just to try if that will fit if it do I will try and get anther one.
Post by: mo goldie on March 14, 2024, 03:03:16 PM
just done the job Ash started bike with just the yellow in line and it went to below 11.8 volts.... then put the white on with the yellow and it went to 12.8 Volts revving to about 3.000 so it is there but Not through the wiring harness ..... so something still a miss do you think with either the stator as it don`t read just using the yellow coils as only give out a good voltage when connecting the white for the lighting........ so do you think stator...... if so I Know you said you had two......can I Bye one if you think it is that ?
Cheers Mo
oh the Vacuum Chamber spring I got from the CBR400 works a treat No Binding up and its Not so Heavy that it upsets the Vacuum of the slide so it is Nice and smooth. so ordered anther one......so if anyone else wants them I think he has got about 5 left...hope that help someone else out :)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133060672017
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 14, 2024, 10:06:44 PM
If your meter has a 10 Amp DC range it may be worth connecting it in series between the battery positive terminal and the wires that connect to the battery as in this Honda diagram attached. IMPORTANT THOUGH !!! Don't use the electric starter ... only use kick-start. Measure the current with just the yellow wire connected from the alternator and then with both yellow and white connected. Report back with your findings at tickover and 3k RPM.
If your meter does have the 10A DC range you need to connect the red probe to the high current socket on the meter. Send me details of your meter and I can suss it out if you are uncertain.
UPDATE ! You meter does indeed have a 10A DC range as I just checked it out in one of the pictures in an earlier posts and there is a 10A red socket to be used in conjunction with the normal black negative socket.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: mo goldie on March 14, 2024, 11:44:01 PM
I will give that a try over the next day or so and see..... I have two meters one a fluke and the one you see which is a new one all bells and you Know what ..... which is all automatic so will try both.....it was meant to be a new battery what came with the bike.......... but if it is that at Fault I will get a Motobatt one if it is..as I got them on all my bikes.... My Kh400 had one on that 13 years before I changed it last year, I built that 17 years ago this year .... had to rebuild it two years ago after a silly "woman" ( Girl ) done a U turn in font of me coming back from the Copdock bike show after a good day as my BSA won but coming back home on the KH400 she did that......... But ha ho after a broken Shoulder and 8 broken ribs later I am here to tell the story as they say.
Cheers
Mo
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 15, 2024, 07:08:05 AM
Are thanks Ash
I will give that a try over the next day or so and see..... I have two meters one a fluke and the one you see which is a new one all bells and you Know what ..... which is all automatic so will try both.....it was meant to be a new battery what came with the bike.......... but if it is that at Fault I will get a Motobatt one if it is..as I got them on all my bikes.... My Kh400 had one on that 13 years before I changed it last year, I built that 17 years ago this year .... had to rebuild it two years ago after a silly "woman" ( Girl ) done a U turn in font of me coming back from the Copdock bike show after a good day as my BSA won but coming back home on the KH400 she did that......... But ha ho after a broken Shoulder and 8 broken ribs later I am here to tell the story as they say.
Cheers
Mo
Oh dear glad you recovered OK Mo.
Not saying the battery is at fault just another thing to try as I read on another forum that a guys charging issues were down to the battery in the end ..... after a lot of head scratching.
If you then still suspect the stator then send it to me and I will check it out for you electrically.
Post by: mo goldie on March 15, 2024, 03:07:57 PM
Yes still getting there as shoulder was Never fixed but it is what it is ha...all she got was a £180 police course :(
Anyway I got out this Morning as it was dry and connected all up again and it was as much as I could do to keep her running for 5 mins so might be do to the batt. I checked the batt Voltage it was under 12V but I did do the test from yesterday and found that with the yellow and white connected I was getting 13.2 Volts ......... so before I do anything else I have just ordered a New Motobatt as just Not sure like you say it could be the battery, so ruling that out best to start off with a new one for peace of mind ha. so will go from there.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 16, 2024, 12:53:29 PM
Will post the needles off to you Monday Mo
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Post by: Johnny4428 on March 16, 2024, 01:28:07 PM
Post by: mo goldie on March 16, 2024, 09:37:39 PM
What can I say Ash......... But what a Stash lol..... thanks Ash that will be great for the Needles. should get the battery coming next week so hope that might make some headway with the charging Problems we will have to see.... just been a long winded way round this thing ha.... just hope all go`s well. Thanks Again Ash Much Appreciated.
One more thing I took the + wire off the battery side and put that to the meter and the - from the other side of the Meter to the battery but how do you get the power to run the bike as No lights etc.... I Know its just me but I said I was No good with electrics ha something I am doing wrong ha
Keep the old girls running ha well and me the old timer LOL ;D
Cheers
Mo
Post by: taysidedragon on March 17, 2024, 12:25:05 AM
Wow Wow.........
What can I say Ash......... But what a Stash lol..... thanks Ash that will be great for the Needles. should get the battery coming next week so hope that might make some headway with the charging Problems we will have to see.... just been a long winded way round this thing ha.... just hope all go`s well. Thanks Again Ash Much Appreciated.
One more thing I took the + wire off the battery side and put that to the meter and the - from the other side of the Meter to the battery but how do you get the power to run the bike as No lights etc.... I Know its just me but I said I was No good with electrics ha something I am doing wrong ha
Keep the old girls running ha well and me the old timer LOL ;D
Cheers
Mo
Step away from the meter! 😖🤣
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 17, 2024, 09:13:04 AM
One more thing I took the + wire off the battery side and put that to the meter and the - from the other side of the Meter to the battery but how do you get the power to run the bike as No lights etc.... I Know its just me but I said I was No good with electrics ha something I am doing wrong ha
Cheers
Mo
Did you have the red lead in the 10A socket on your meter Mo ? and the meter switched to 10A DC range? This should give you normal power into the electrical circuits and also a means of measuring the current drawn. DO NOT operate the electric starter though ! Only kickstart the bike
Post by: mo goldie on March 17, 2024, 06:43:15 PM
well that meter I used was an automatic one so thought that would know....... so I will have a go with the Fluke meter tomorrow if I can and see what that Brings.
Post by: royhall on March 17, 2024, 07:43:30 PM
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Post by: Laverda Dave on March 18, 2024, 09:09:23 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 18, 2024, 10:38:35 AM
Post by: royhall on March 18, 2024, 10:38:56 AM
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 18, 2024, 11:37:07 AM
Post by: mo goldie on March 18, 2024, 11:45:10 PM
I found out why the meter did Not let the juice though it...... as inside the fluke there is a big 15 amp fuse never seen one that big and it has blown don`t know where you can get them.....
Oh Roy.... is the Carb on the right a 14c as that is the one that looks the same as mine ?
Post by: royhall on March 19, 2024, 06:26:52 AM
Yes Mo the one on the right is a 14C.
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 19, 2024, 07:26:39 AM
Hi Ash
I found out why the meter did Not let the juice though it...... as inside the fluke there is a big 15 amp fuse never seen one that big and it has blown don`t know where you can get them.....
Oh Roy.... is the Carb on the right a 14c as that is the one that looks the same as mine ?
Is it like this Mo? If so cheapest I can find in UK not China.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/395247827626
That fuse will blow if you connect as I described AND operate the electric starter.
Post by: mo goldie on March 19, 2024, 09:13:15 AM
I never used the starter as the solenoid to it was Not even connected at the time, I remember I got that fluke meter when I left work and have Not used it on that 10A setting before so someone must have blown it ha....wow that was a few years ago as well lol.
Are ok Roy thought that looked the same as mine which is the 14C
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 19, 2024, 01:15:28 PM
Post by: mo goldie on March 19, 2024, 11:56:08 PM
just need to get the fluke sorted out and I should be ready for a try out..... the fuse I think should take a few days to get here but when it do I can try it all out.
Cheers
Mo
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 20, 2024, 07:58:48 AM
yes great Ash thank you they were on the door matt when I got home one more thing out the way......what do I owe you for them ?
just need to get the fluke sorted out and I should be ready for a try out..... the fuse I think should take a few days to get here but when it do I can try it all out.
Cheers
Mo
No charge (on the needles) .... hoping charge on the battery ;D
Post by: mo goldie on March 20, 2024, 10:02:35 PM
Well thank you very much for them Needles Apricated they are now in the carbs and I have re-done the Ign timing and set the carbs with a colortune and she is running great Now well the only real way to know is a test ride But Not yet.
Anyway i can`t make head nor tail of what come out of the meter.... I did Cheat and use one strand out of a length of wire and put it across the burned out fuse just to get things going,,,, yes Not good but it worked ;D but I can understand the meter readings..... so have a look at the pictures and see if you can,
I will say with the yellow connected on its own not much happened about 12.66 Volts across the Battery, but Join the white and yellow so using the whole out put of the stator it was reading 13.1 volts when reving, so would it be ok to just keep the yellow and white connected or will that do something Bad ? as don`t want to blow up them Ign Modules but it did seem ok.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 21, 2024, 09:23:06 AM
Iam thinking along the lines that magnets in the rotor may be slightly weak so I would connect the yellow and white wires permanently. However, dig out one of those Kawasaki voltage regulators out and I will tell you how to connect it. This will mean that if you did generate excess charge then the regulator would 'current dump' it to ground and wouldn't overcharge your battery. How does it read if you have the dipped beam on too? Worth checking
Post by: mo goldie on March 21, 2024, 03:57:32 PM
well I have found one up so have a look at the pictures and see what you think to wire that in to stop overcharging of the Battery....... as for the lights on have not done that yet so one more thing to look at.
anyway I gave the Regulator a clean up and put it on the meter if that means anything to you ( but Not me LOL )
so hope that will work, it has two wires coming out one Black and one yellow/white.
Cheers
Mo
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 21, 2024, 10:55:01 PM
Post by: mo goldie on March 21, 2024, 11:41:57 PM
and is a lot bigger one........... so if I can use this one Ash would be good, so I asum it go`s somewhere between the rectifier and the Battery ?.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 22, 2024, 08:04:14 AM
Are ok...... well I Think the other one when i find it has 4 wires ........
and is a lot bigger one........... so if I can use this one Ash would be good, so I asum it go`s somewhere between the rectifier and the Battery ?.
Leave it with me to investigate Mo. You also need to check your charge current with the lights on dipped beam.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 22, 2024, 09:39:23 AM
Must admit the Shop Manual looks pretty good though.
https://kawatriple.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Workshop-Manual-S-KH-Series-1.pdf
So here you go Mo. On Kwak voltage regulator ... Black wire to Ground and Yellow/Green wire to Yellow on your wiring.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: mo goldie on March 22, 2024, 11:25:02 AM
Well thanks for that and the Manual I have got one but got a spare Now.... going over to Kawasaki LOL
so here is what I have done this morning with the bike lights on and off Not to sure now as with the lights on the voltage drop a lot but I will let you tell me what you think, it starts off with the lights off and rev at 2,000 rev`s about 13.40 to 13.45 then lights on and drop right away to about 12.7 then go`s down from there to about 12.46 all at 2,000 rev`s don`t know if that is good enough or Not.
Cheers Mo
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 22, 2024, 11:47:57 AM
Hi Ash
Well thanks for that and the Manual I have got one but got a spare Now.... going over to Kawasaki LOL
so here is what I have done this morning with the bike lights on and off Not to sure now as with the lights on the voltage drop a lot but I will ley you tell me what you think, it starts off with the lights off and rev at 2,000 rev`s about 13.40 to 13.45 then lights on and drop right away to about 12.7 then go`s down from there to about 12.46 all at 2,000 rev`s don`t know if that is good enough or Not.
Cheers Mo
Doesn't sound too bad .. can you do the same tests with meter set to 10A and in series with battery (as you did previously) please Mo and give us some current readings.
Post by: mo goldie on March 22, 2024, 12:13:03 PM
I hope this make some sense to you as don`t to me ;D
Just connected up in line with the batt and this is what the meter say.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 22, 2024, 01:11:49 PM
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Post by: mo goldie on March 22, 2024, 01:19:44 PM
i wish I Know more Ash about Electrics ;D
oh don`t forget I have the wires from the stator going to the Rectifier so Not going thought the loom.. the black rectifier wire is the yellow from stator which is the white ( lights Extra ) ...and the brown/yellow is the yellow from the stator both connected to rectifier.........
Confusing .com I Know lol
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 22, 2024, 01:26:09 PM
the red lead is the one from the rectifier to the battery which is being held on by the black probe, and the other black from the Rectifier is to the - side of the battery the starter wire as we said is Not connected as use kickstart only.....
i wish I Know more Ash about Electrics ;D
oh don`t forget I have the wires from the stator going to the Rectifier so Not going thought the loom
You definitely need to connect the red lead from the rectifier to the red probe from the meter and only have the black lead connected to the battery. Idea is to measure current in to or out of battery.
Post by: mo goldie on March 22, 2024, 01:29:27 PM
I will go have a go at that then Ash Thanks.....will get back :)
Thanks for this ;D
Post by: mo goldie on March 22, 2024, 01:49:26 PM
is That any better ....... that was lights on and 2,000 rev`s.
Oh that wire you pointed at I will go look see if I can find out where it go`s.
Post by: mo goldie on March 22, 2024, 02:53:44 PM
oh thats my KH400 Ashley back in 2008 in Classic motorcycle Mag
Post by: mo goldie on March 24, 2024, 12:20:22 AM
that wire Ash is to the Battery, as I said it go`s in the wiring loom and comes out again to that right hand side of that plug that go`s back into the rectifier so that should not be doing that you say ?
and still a bit puzzled at the regulator yellow/green to go to the yellow you say, and I have to join the yellow and the white to get the full output of the stator so is it to go into the both of them before it comes into the rectifier or do it go in after ...and I would have thought at the red coming out of the rectifier as need to regulate what's coming out DC not the AC, do you think you could do me one of your great little sketch`s of how it go`s please.
Post by: mo goldie on March 26, 2024, 06:42:48 PM
today I have been doing a bit of wiring from the stator upto the rectifier and also puting the regulator in a nice place so out the way. I have decided not use the wiring loom wires from the plug at the tool box end as I am using my own made wires from as I said the stator to the Reg/Rec also joined the yellow and white to get the full out put of the stator coils... they are all there just need the Master ( Ash ) to give me the heads up as to where to put them wires now I have them all ready to put on.
Cheers
Mo
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 27, 2024, 03:33:56 PM
Post by: mo goldie on March 27, 2024, 06:19:17 PM
Yes you are right in that I have made a wiring up only from the stator to the rec/Reg but Not wired them in yet ( that's where I Need your help please as to how )
yes I Know where the wires go into the Rectifier but I am Not sure where to put the green/yellow from the Regulator as you said that go`s to the yellow..... But the bit I don`t get is it on the wire before it go`s to the rectifier ? as I said I have joined the two stator wires together to give max out put to go to the Rectifier but where do I put that Green/yellow to ?
Just my way of thinking Not being up on electrics is that I thought you would put that on the red coming out of the rectifier so if the volts got to high then that would dump the excess to ground.......... as I say my thought was if I put it on the yellow it would be Getting the AC voltage going in to the Reg ?
all confusing Ash to me lol.......... more of a mechanical I am lol...............
cheers Mo
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 27, 2024, 09:19:30 PM
I have illustrated the Kwak diagram . You need to connect the Yellow/Green wire to YELLOW on your Honda and thde black to ground (battery negative).
[attachimg=1]
Post by: mo goldie on March 27, 2024, 11:43:55 PM
are so I was right then ( makes a change ha lol ) it do go on the AC side with the white/yellow which are joined to the rectifier.
Ok will try that out soon and get back with some picture when it looks a bit more tidy wire wise.
Thanks again for your help Ash
cheer Mo
Post by: mo goldie on March 28, 2024, 07:23:54 PM
Well wired all up and the first picture is the Regulator mounted under where the Rectifier will be mounted on the top, the Heatsink which the Rectifier is mounted under that, and the other picture is a little gadget that reads the out put and that is with Lights On and revs at 3,000 ... but I will still do the test using the 10A on the meter ( Without the starter lol ) to check that.... but i hope all should be there Now... that Rectifier do get warm Ash I Know it is meant to as why you said mount it on a heatsink which glad I did that.
So how do you think that is Now ?
Cheers
Mo
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 29, 2024, 09:30:27 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 29, 2024, 09:59:58 AM
Post by: mo goldie on March 29, 2024, 06:44:00 PM
Well yes i hope it is Now getting there and thanks for all your help and Advice to get me there.... I can`t do any more at the Moment as got a bit of a miss fire on the Left hand side Cylinder, I checked the Plug and Replaced that also the wiring at the coils etc I have got the Carb back off and going to check all jets and put it in my Ultrasonic cleaner and put that back on but I can Not run it up as had to get some more fuel pipe as it was Not long enough as I thought that the routing of that was Not good and the New pipe wont be here till the end of next week now due to the Easter Hols, so all on hold for that now.
Thanks Ted I do try to do things a bit neat if I can lol as Ashley said also about the heat sink for the Rectifier so that`s all good now..........
Cheers all till the next help............ in Advance LOL ;D
Mo