Post by: juitz on March 30, 2022, 07:39:07 PM
First post on this forum and after some advice.
I purchased a non-running 1975 CB550k1 for a cafe racer project and after a few months of tearing down to determine the full condition of the bike and what will need to be repaired/replaced I'm ready to get started with the rebuild.
However, I started thinking a bit more about the registration process. I dont need an MOT as the bike is over 40 years old.
I will need to get the registration from DVLA, can I do this now whilst the bike is in bits or do I need to finish the rebuild?
Another area of confusion is around the condition of the frame when I register it. Do I need to keep it stock or can I carry out the standard rear frame chop and new hoop weld, rebuild then register?
Slightly confused as to what the right order of steps should be and help would be appreciated.
I purchased the bike from DK Motorcycles and these are their instructions, I guess I can register with bike insured on frame then once I receive the V5 I can SORN?
We HAVE NOT got the Certificate of Title but we will provide proof that VAT & Duty is paid on the NOVA system.(This can take upto 4 weeks)
Registration.
1. You need to get the bike MOTed. (Vehicles over 40 years old are MOT exempt)
2. You need proof of year of manufacture in writing. To get a recognised dating letter apply in writing to Honda Motorcycle Operations at the following address.
Year of Manufacture, Honda (UK),Cain Road, Bracknell, Berkshire, RG12 1HL
The following information for the bike should quoted, Model, VIN, Engine number. Additionally you should include your contact details (telephone number and email).
There is administration fee of £30 (25 + VAT) which can be paid by cheque or postal order payable to Honda (UK).
If information needs to be acquired from Japan the the "Proof of year of manufacture" letter can take upto 6 weeks to arrive.
3. You need to have valid insurance on the bike. You can insure it on the chassis number.
4. Send all this paper work to the DVLA, who will charge you £55 for the 1st registration plus the current amount for the road tax.
The DVLA will send you your age related registration number.
Thanks,
Dave
Post by: SteveW on March 30, 2022, 08:51:41 PM
I got a dating certificate from the VJMC.
Put a letter in with your application saying why you don’t have a title, just say it was a barn find in the USA and hasn’t been on the road for years. My mate didn’t do this and got his application rejected as they want to know why the title was missing.
Mine was mostly complete when I applied because you could get unlucky and they might wish to inspect the bike. Don’t know what they would do if they wanted to inspect and it’s in a pile of bits.
Post by: Nurse Julie on March 30, 2022, 08:52:11 PM
Post by: SteveW on March 30, 2022, 09:17:31 PM
The problem with the DVLA is you can be unlucky and get a jobsworth doing your application so the more stuff you send the better.
Here's a copy of my V55 and V112, just replace the ##### with your details. Most of the V55 you can leave blank.
Post by: juitz on March 30, 2022, 09:47:42 PM
I'll get in contact with VJMC and see if I can that dating certificate asap. I've got plenty of photos of the bike before it was torn down so hopefully this helps.
Post by: Bryanj on March 30, 2022, 10:12:56 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 30, 2022, 10:25:01 PM
Yup DK is a bit out of date as Honda only give letters for UK bikes now, it was too arduous to email Japan and wait for an answer!
Are you sure about that Bryan ... Honda UK just contacted Japan for me and got me a dating certificate for my 1970 CB250K2. Granted it was originally UK registered but HondaUK had no record of it . Tokk them about 3 months though but cheaper than VJMC and an easier process IMHO
Post by: Oddjob on March 30, 2022, 10:28:59 PM
Post by: philward on March 30, 2022, 11:11:40 PM
Didn't need an MOT by using the MOT exemption form he directs you to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1Ek5Ybb-Yc
Post by: Bryanj on March 31, 2022, 12:43:01 AM
Post by: SteveW on March 31, 2022, 02:37:41 PM
Apart from the driving license copy, make sure all the other paperwork is original, they will not accept copies.
The slightest thing wrong they will reject it and you basically end up at the back of the queue again. Even though they ask for your contact details in case of a problem, they will not contact you.
And send it all recorded delivery.
The hardest bit I found was trying to find a cheque book to pay the £55.
Post by: MCTID on March 31, 2022, 05:42:43 PM
I had a moan at my local Postwoman and said I couldn't believe that anyone could be so stupid......she just rolled her eyes and said "With some of the people in our PO Sorting Office....I certainly can believe it" ! She said if I had anything 'important' such as original Vehicle documents it was vital to send them to the DVLA by REGISTERED POST. Recorded Delivery Post just means that you had some confirmation that it had been delivered but Registered Post meant that the PO could tell you the time and date when it was delivered and who signed for it.
Like many other Government Departments, many people working in the DVLA are just Agency workers who may or may not be there next week so they don't get much training, and the Procedures used by many Government Departments are so overly complicated and bureaucratic, that even seasoned personnel don't actually know what to do when something out of the ordinary lands on their desk.....hence long delays in processing time.
Better safe than sorry in my view !
Post by: Laverda Dave on March 31, 2022, 07:56:52 PM
https://youtu.be/PZZ8SqKcNwk
Post by: MCTID on March 31, 2022, 11:32:56 PM
One of the more interesting presentations was from a Senior Quality Manager from Natwest Bank, which had recently introduced a new type of Bank Account for existing Customers only. It really was a great deal and lots of people took it up. After a few weeks, local Natwest Bank Managers from all around the UK were regularly complaining to their Head Office that they were getting serious grief from some of their best and longstanding Customers, who Natwest was really pi*sing off because they had no response to their postal applications to participate in this wonderful new initiative.
After a lot of legwork, this Natwest Quality Manager tracked down the problem to the fact that 6 or 7 sackfuls of mail (Applications) were being delivered to the HQ of the Natwest Bank EVERY day, but the number of Employees assigned to process them was totally inadequate, so the old sacks of mail were being left at the back of the room gathering dust and they were only processing the latest Applications.....so the older Applications just went backwards - hence the complaints from some of their best Customers that 'If Natwest can't process my Applications in a timely manner, then maybe I need to find myself a more efficient Bank to look after my money and substantial investments'....so not only were Natwest missing out on the takeup of their new Bank Account, they were losing some of their oldest and most profitable Customers in droves.
Remember that this was back in 1988........and I could be a smartarse and say that surely the DVLA and all their highly paid (overpaid) Executives should have seen this coming, but as we are talking about the DVLA, it's hardly surprising really is it !
Post by: SteveW on April 01, 2022, 07:24:59 AM
From what everyone else was saying I was expecting 6 weeks absolute minimum.
Post by: juitz on April 03, 2022, 04:25:15 PM
Post by: juitz on April 07, 2022, 12:50:48 PM
Now onto DVLA application!
Post by: juitz on April 12, 2022, 12:43:17 PM
Whilst I'm here, can anyone recommend a good machinist to rebore the cylinders (I'm in the Wiltshire area)? Engine was seized due to corrosion - Not sure if rebore/bigger cylinder or just new / seconhand block is better way to go?
Post by: Sesman on April 12, 2022, 03:18:13 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 12, 2022, 11:18:07 PM
Post by: juitz on April 13, 2022, 10:40:54 AM
Is the bike substantially complete? You might get a visit from the DVLA’s validation engineer and based on what he said to me he’ll give the thumbs down if it’s in bits on the garage floor…..just saying.
Yes it is in bits which is what I'm really worried about. My fault for jumping the gun on those. I can rebuild it I guess but that would be a pain....
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 13, 2022, 06:10:35 PM
Post by: Sesman on April 13, 2022, 07:29:52 PM
Or like Roo says, jus you delay the inspection until you are ready.
Post by: juitz on April 17, 2022, 04:51:27 PM
So, I was originally thinking of rebuilding my bike as a cafe racer. But after further reading and some sensibility kicking in, I've decided to go in a slightly different direction. Firstly, i'm keeping the stock airbox to make tuning/running more reliable. Enough info and threads around stating the difficulties of tuning carbs with non-stock airbox. I have enough to do as it is, and don't want to add complexity where it's not needed. I love the cafe racer look, but I would much rather have a rideable bike. I will have to get some side covers as my bike didn't have them - assume aftermarket ones are decent enough.
This brings me to the second change which is handlebars and ride stance. I've remembered that I'm too old to be riding with aggressive stance anymore - my back just can't handle it. So I've decided to keep the stock top triple and go with some low rise / superbike handle bars instead for a bit more of an upright position.
Can anyone recommend a decent set of aftermarket handlebars and where I could get some handlebar clamps in the UK? Don't want to use the stock clamp.
Post by: Sesman on April 17, 2022, 05:27:50 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 17, 2022, 06:11:11 PM
I quote form Govt website :- no ‘substantial changes’ have been made to the vehicle in the last 30 years, for example replacing the chassis, body, axles or engine to change the way the vehicle works
Post by: Sesman on April 17, 2022, 07:17:12 PM
Post by: juitz on April 18, 2022, 11:51:36 AM
It was always my belief that a lot of parts would need to be replaced on the bike due to the age and condition. And as I've stripped it down I've found more and more issues.
For example the front wheel rim is in poor condition, and I don't think it salvageable - so will need a new rim (see pics). Does this take it further from a historic reg? Probably! Rear wheel looks ok, on the outside, it might be ok to re-chrome.
[attach=1]
And the electrics, ugh! Another mess of missing/rotted/rusted parts - to be replaced with new wiring and M-unit.
Exhaust is another full replacement. So yeah, not a great condition bike but I did want a challenge 😉
Post by: Bryanj on April 18, 2022, 12:31:38 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 18, 2022, 01:40:04 PM
Hmm, so a historic reg might not be the way to go here. Being from Australia and this being my first "build", the details of vehicle registrations are new so obviously a lot to learn!
It was always my belief that a lot of parts would need to be replaced on the bike due to the age and condition. And as I've stripped it down I've found more and more issues.
For example the front wheel rim is in poor condition, and I don't think it salvageable - so will need a new rim (see pics). Does this take it further from a historic reg? Probably! Rear wheel looks ok, on the outside, it might be ok to re-chrome.
(Attachment Link)
And the electrics, ugh! Another mess of missing/rotted/rusted parts - to be replaced with new wiring and M-unit.
Exhaust is another full replacement. So yeah, not a great condition bike but I did want a challenge 😉
No, things like buying replacement wheels, wiring loom etc etc have nothing to do with the bike not being eligible for Historic Status. As a majority of 'original parts' are no longer available as parts have been superseded by Honda time and time again, it is an almost impossible task to acheive.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 18, 2022, 04:01:03 PM
Might be wrong.
Post by: Sesman on April 18, 2022, 04:24:10 PM
Post by: juitz on April 19, 2022, 11:50:03 PM
Like I said, It's my first go around so will learn a lot. Ultimately, I want to get a bike on the road that I will hopefully enjoy for years to come. If that means a Q-plate for this build then so be it.
This build was never really going to be a stockish restoration project anyway. But my lack of research into the DVLA admin side of things has made things a bit more complicated than it should have been.
Post by: juitz on May 01, 2022, 06:08:48 PM
Can anyone suggest where to get a key for the petrol tank latch?
What's listed on csmnl isn't what I have? My latch mechanism has a cover with a hwx type key. This is the only similar photo I could find online. Assume this is not original?
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 01, 2022, 06:54:06 PM
Post by: Oddjob on May 01, 2022, 07:26:27 PM
Post by: juitz on May 02, 2022, 10:35:21 AM
[attach=1]
Post by: Bryanj on May 02, 2022, 01:24:15 PM
Post by: Oddjob on May 02, 2022, 02:47:10 PM
Post by: juitz on May 04, 2022, 11:08:46 PM
So for the next item, can anyone recommend a wheel building service/company? Have my front and rear hubs fully stripped now so looking to get new rims/spokes.I'll be replacing the rims with new units.
Also, having a bit of a read on wheel sizes and there's plenty out there but any recommendations? I'm inclined to keep stock sizes? My understanding is that they are:
Front tyre 3.25 x 19
Rear tyre 3.75 x 18
Rims 1.85 front and rear for US models?
Any reason to deviate from this?
Post by: Oddjob on May 04, 2022, 11:39:12 PM
Post by: Bryanj on May 05, 2022, 12:18:04 AM
Post by: juitz on May 06, 2022, 04:19:01 PM
Build the wheels yourself its aint difficult just time consuming, or bring em to gloucester when i have a free saturday(ho ho) and i will show you how. Need all the bearings and spindles in
Time I've got. You've convinced me to do it myself then 😂
I'll also look at 2.15 rims.
Where do you recommend on buying parts. I do plan on powder coating hub and rims. There's central-wheels, anywhere else?
Post by: Bryanj on May 06, 2022, 04:24:33 PM
Dave Silver does rims and spoke kits, Central Wheel will do various qualites of both, it all depends on your preference and depth of pocket. I did write a how to if i can find it again, the big problem to me is seeing people trying to use a dti for truing when Honda(and mot) say anything less than 3mm is OK
Post by: Oddjob on May 06, 2022, 04:26:19 PM
Post by: juitz on May 06, 2022, 05:30:40 PM
Why powder coat the rims? if they were new they'd be nice and shiny, you'd really only powder coat poor condition ones. In which case just trawl eBay for 750 rims if you want 2.15 rims or 500/550 for 1.85 rims
To be fair, I was planning on powder coating as I like the look of black rims. Guess I could go unplated rims to make it cheaper? I'll have a rethink about new shiny rims though😉
With the 2.15 rims, do you go wider tyres or keep stock sizes?
Post by: Oddjob on May 06, 2022, 05:45:03 PM
The more rubber contact area the better so the wider the tyre the more contact there is.
Post by: Sesman on May 06, 2022, 08:41:51 PM
Post by: Oddjob on May 06, 2022, 10:49:16 PM
Post by: juitz on May 10, 2022, 11:33:45 PM
In the meantime, looking at cost saving options starting with the fork stanchions. They're badly rusted/pitted and was thinking of sending to dynasurf for rechroming, but now I'm wondering if I can just slip back on the headlight covers and leave them as they are? Save myself £200ish?
Post by: Oddjob on May 11, 2022, 12:22:46 AM
Post by: beardylondon on May 11, 2022, 09:27:33 AM
Anyway I had this back and forth, see interesting reply from Flyin900
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,188360.0.html
Go a little wider. I used to run with 4.10 x 19 front and 4.25/85 x 18 rear and they were perfect. Sizes now are 100/90 x 19 and 110/90 x 18.
The more rubber contact area the better so the wider the tyre the more contact there is.
Post by: Oddjob on May 11, 2022, 02:54:22 PM
4.10 is the biggest tyre size that is recommended for the 2.15 rim, I found however that the 4.25/85 tyre was perfect with it, plus it looked better from the back as it's a wider tyre and filled out the swinging arm better. I wouldn't go higher than that though. Lots of people at the time went with 4.10 front and rear or 3.60 front and 4.10 rear. It depends on how you ride the bike, as I was racing at the time, so it was important to me to get maximum grip in corners and I could get insane angles with those tyre sizes mentioned.
Post by: juitz on May 11, 2022, 10:52:48 PM
And I'll send the stanchions out, wishful thinking as always that I will save some money!
Post by: Oddjob on May 12, 2022, 01:22:15 PM
Post by: Sesman on May 12, 2022, 02:26:16 PM
Post by: juitz on May 16, 2022, 05:07:09 PM
Does anyone know where I can get some handlebar clamps that fit on the original top triple in the UK? I don't want to replace the original clamp with indicator lights. Found some on csmnl from a 78 model but shipping is 30% of the total cost.
Frame is going out to get welded with new rear hoop, and a long way to go but I'm hoping to start actually posting some pics of the build soon!
Post by: Oddjob on May 16, 2022, 05:53:35 PM
Meant for a 550F which doesn't have the idiot panel light clamp like the 500.
Post by: juitz on May 16, 2022, 06:33:10 PM
Post by: Oddjob on May 17, 2022, 12:28:20 AM
Post by: juitz on May 22, 2022, 11:30:56 AM
Looking at stanchions and as shown mine are pretty rusted so no guarantee they'll be ok to refurbish, or how good they'll come out.
Looking for new ones but they are incredibly expensive. Anyway, found some Tarozzi ones for CB500s which may fit?
Looking at csmnl it says the CB550k1 stanchions are same as CB500k2?
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550-k1-four-1975-usa_model466/pipe-front-fork_51410374003/
https://www.brooksuspension.co.uk/fork-stanchion-fork-tubes/paolo-tarozzi-fork-stanchions/honda-cb500-paolo-tarozzi-fork-stanchion-74-77
Post by: Oddjob on May 22, 2022, 12:30:31 PM
You can also use Dynasurf in Sandbach, cheaper and turn round time seems to be better. I've had a few parts done by them including a set of stanchions for a CB1300 which are still looking as good as new a few years later, hard chroming is very hard and resists stone strikes etc much much better than decorative or standard chrome.
Post by: juitz on May 24, 2022, 07:46:57 PM
Post by: juitz on June 08, 2022, 01:32:24 PM
No inspection required (phew!). Just waiting for the V5c form to arrive then SORN until build is done!
Thanks to everyone who helped out with the paper work! :)
Post by: juitz on June 11, 2022, 05:15:44 PM
Can anyone suggest where I can find 91261-323-000 D-ring for rear brake hub assy?
All places show out of stock. Did find a thread here where parts were group ordered from Slovakia?
I've found all other orings and dust seals either through eBay or just like for like replacement for o-rings.
Post by: Oddjob on June 11, 2022, 07:15:12 PM
He may still have a couple left if you ask him.
Otherwise I bought more than I needed so if he can't help I'd be willing to sell you one of mine I suppose.
Post by: juitz on June 12, 2022, 04:49:18 PM
But on this week's topic:
What are the recommend electronic ignition systems? There's the dynacoil system, but have seen a number of other systems.
I need to test the original coils, but will likely get new ones as I'm a bit iffy on the condition of the cable insulation and plugs on the originals - one of the plug cap has already broken
Post by: Sesman on June 12, 2022, 05:12:48 PM
Hi, everyone.
Can anyone suggest where I can find 91261-323-000 D-ring for rear brake hub assy?
All places show out of stock. Did find a thread here where parts were group ordered from Slovakia?
I've found all other orings and dust seals either through eBay or just like for like replacement for o-rings.
I have an unwanted spare
Post by: Bryanj on June 12, 2022, 05:42:45 PM
Post by: juitz on June 13, 2022, 01:04:12 PM
I checked out Ash's coil repair method, but this looks like it could end up in tears for me ;)
Post by: Oddjob on June 13, 2022, 02:25:58 PM
I have around 3-4 sets of coils waiting to be done at the moment, I'll be selling them after they are done but that won't be for a while yet as I keep finding other stuff to do first.
Renovating the workshop right now, building new workbenchs and replacing cupboards etc so I reckon I'll do them all in one go after that's done.
Post by: juitz on June 15, 2022, 12:23:06 AM
http://sohc4shop.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=32
But I get an automated failed to deliver message saying the email inbox is full ::)
Post by: Oddjob on June 15, 2022, 12:41:11 AM
Post by: juitz on June 15, 2022, 11:02:36 PM
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on June 16, 2022, 10:00:42 AM
I’ll let Glenn know.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: juitz on June 19, 2022, 09:24:49 AM
Postage is pretty expensive though so have created a post in the parts seeking section to see if anyone is looking to buy a unit so we can split the costs.
Post by: juitz on July 06, 2022, 10:05:58 PM
[attach=1]
Going to work on rebuilding the rear wheel and try my hand at truing the wheels this week.
Following that I want to get tyres fitted then get the front and rear suspension mocked up for fitment and this is where my next question comes in.
Been looking at rear shocks and plenty of options out there. I did see TEC adjustable shocks as being well regarded here on the forum, but I've contacted TEC and they won't be making these anymore. Any other suggestions? Ikon, Hagon?
TEC seemed to be well priced but Ikon and Hagon options look to be a lot more expensive in some instances.
Oh, and the 48mm circlip 9452148000 for the oil seals in the forks - mine are in bad shape and need to replace them. Does anyone know the correct thickness for these?
Thanks!
Post by: Bryanj on July 06, 2022, 11:03:29 PM
Post by: juitz on July 07, 2022, 09:14:40 PM
The original shocks look to be 315mm eye to eye centerline (could be slightly off). These are how they were set when I took them off.
[attach=1]
Not sure if that's the "nominal" setting.
Post by: Bryanj on July 08, 2022, 01:03:45 AM
Post by: juitz on July 09, 2022, 07:33:05 AM
Post by: juitz on July 09, 2022, 06:25:11 PM
Hope you are all enjoying the sunshine!
I was hoping someone could sanity check my lacing pattern.
Fronts I'm pretty confident but rear....ehhh?
Thanks 🤟
[attach=1]
Post by: Bryanj on July 09, 2022, 08:51:45 PM
Post by: juitz on July 10, 2022, 10:27:11 AM
Some of the outer spokes joints don't sit quite flush against the hub but I can reseat these ok.
Ive looked at a couple of threads on the sohc.net forum but yeah, think it's right but not 100%.
Post by: Lobo on July 10, 2022, 11:14:52 AM
I’d further be surprised if it were possible to lace it incorrectly given you say no spokes are overly proud … or short wrt the rim?
Post by: Johnny4428 on July 10, 2022, 04:58:21 PM
Looks good!
Post by: Oddjob on July 10, 2022, 05:45:15 PM
Post by: juitz on July 11, 2022, 06:58:10 AM
Thanks for the checking. I'll crack on with truing the wheels and then getting some tyres fitted. Seems like Avon roadriders are popular choice so will go with these.
Post by: Oddjob on July 11, 2022, 03:44:22 PM
If all the inner holes are countersunk then you're ok but from what I can see it looks like every other one.
Post by: juitz on July 11, 2022, 08:47:33 PM
Good excuse for a slow Saturday and a cold beer 😁
Post by: Laverda Dave on July 12, 2022, 08:11:13 AM
Got my forks back from Dynasurf - 4 week turnaround but they look mint!
(Attachment Link)
Going to work on rebuilding the rear wheel and try my hand at truing the wheels this week.
Following that I want to get tyres fitted then get the front and rear suspension mocked up for fitment and this is where my next question comes in.
Been looking at rear shocks and plenty of options out there. I did see TEC adjustable shocks as being well regarded here on the forum, but I've contacted TEC and they won't be making these anymore. Any other suggestions? Ikon, Hagon?
TEC seemed to be well priced but Ikon and Hagon options look to be a lot more expensive in some instances.
Oh, and the 48mm circlip 9452148000 for the oil seals in the forks - mine are in bad shape and need to replace them. Does anyone know the correct thickness for these?
Thanks!
Try this guy, he was the south east agent for TEC and had a number of pairs for sale at Kempton Park the last time I saw him.
His contact details are David Hunt, 01932 786030 (evenings and weekends or leave a message).
Post by: juitz on July 12, 2022, 10:14:11 PM
[/quote]
Try this guy, he was the south east agent for TEC and had a number of pairs for sale at Kempton Park the last time I saw him.
His contact details are David Hunt, 01932 786030 (evenings and weekends or leave a message).
[/quote]
Thankyou! Will give him a try.
Post by: juitz on August 06, 2022, 01:37:14 PM
I'm starting to rebuild the forks but am a bit unsure about the seal and circlip install in the tubes.
Basically I have a big gap. I've seen one vid that has a spacer, but the exploded parts list for my model on cSMNL doesn't have this? I can't find a spacer in the parts bin and I can't remember one been there when I took it apart.
Post by: Bryanj on August 06, 2022, 03:48:38 PM
Post by: juitz on August 07, 2022, 06:06:21 PM
Post by: juitz on August 12, 2022, 11:02:51 PM
Aside from chopping up a perfectly good front fender, does anyone have any suggestions for a shorter front fender?
Seen a few aftermarket ones online but all in the US and/or out of stock.
Would rather keep the original fender to be honest, either as sspare or sell it on to someone who could use an original part (one of the only useable bits that came off the bike!)
Post by: Bryanj on August 13, 2022, 07:54:55 AM
Post by: Lobo on August 13, 2022, 08:57:02 AM
I could never question Bryan’s knowledge, but have used compressed air to blow these seals out (via the drain holes)…. would compressing the stanchion not be doing the same and thus unseat the seal?
Post by: Bryanj on August 13, 2022, 11:16:52 AM
Those seals are usually so damn tight in there it takes a big lever to shift them.
Post by: Oddjob on August 13, 2022, 12:21:22 PM
Post by: Lobo on August 13, 2022, 12:31:00 PM
Surely though there is a (safety?) consideration upon compressing the forks with only an interference seal? Whilst the oil may not ‘hydraulic’ against the seals there will be a rising air pressure - though I’ve no idea whether the psi would be significant. It does beg the question though as to why Honda bothered providing a circlip? (and washer on the ‘750)
All said, I can’t question your experience versus my thoughts!
Post by: Bryanj on August 13, 2022, 12:54:13 PM
On an asside when i was in the trade i reckon over 50% of leaking seals were from where they had been replaced and the inner of the slider(outside of seal) had been scored by a big screwdriver or sharp lever in which case carefully remover sharp edges and fill the groove with rtv and hope you dont have to remove the seal again.
Used to remove power steering box shaft seals by connecting a power pack hydraulic pump to one unit with a blanck on all others, used to take about 300psi to pump the seal out
Post by: juitz on August 13, 2022, 04:14:44 PM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391988989263?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=7Iy1D4TNQ3u&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=eMi7QkCfTHq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Post by: Oddjob on August 13, 2022, 06:14:22 PM
Post by: juitz on August 14, 2022, 12:47:47 PM
Not sure if I made the right choice with alum front shocks and black rear shocks, but hey, if i dont like it will give me something to do after it's finished!
[attach=1]
It's slow progress as I keep finding bits that need replacing that I haven't ordered, but its coming along.
Next up are getting tyres installed on the wheels and then I'll start the electrics.
I have a question on the lower Mounting bolt for the rear suspension. It's only a M10x32 bolt through the bush? Again, can't find anything in my dismantle pics or the build diagrams that say otherwise?
[attach=2]
Cheers!
Post by: Bryanj on August 14, 2022, 12:58:05 PM
Post by: juitz on August 14, 2022, 01:14:13 PM
This is the bolt I have and I THINK is the one shown in the parts list, it has a very small shoulder which is why is am unsure as the thread sits inside the bush.
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550-k1-four-1975-usa_model466/bolt-hex-10x32_93000100320b/
Post by: Oddjob on August 14, 2022, 02:04:01 PM
I always prefer to fit a flat washer under the head of that bolt to stop it digging into the damper body. If doing so use a 10 x 35mm bolt
I also can't see any D washers in the top yoke?
Post by: Bryanj on August 14, 2022, 02:21:54 PM
Post by: Oddjob on August 14, 2022, 03:21:34 PM
Post by: Bryanj on August 14, 2022, 06:49:24 PM
Post by: juitz on August 15, 2022, 12:51:33 AM
Post by: juitz on August 17, 2022, 06:16:17 PM
Moving onto electrics.
I'm going to get an m-unit. And will likely get an li-ion or anti-gravity battery (depends on how small they come).
One item I'm unsure of is the voltage regulator/rectifier. Seems like Rick's unit is the recommended by reading past posts here, but there are dozens out there ranging from £20 to £120 and wondering if there's anything recent that may have changed this opinion?
Post by: Bryanj on August 17, 2022, 07:40:58 PM
Post by: juitz on August 18, 2022, 11:25:03 PM
I'm kinda committed to the small battery route as that's what I intended when making the electronics route.
I'll do a bit more research though.
Post by: juitz on August 20, 2022, 03:55:35 PM
Trying to get the rear wheel together but I'm unsure which way the D-ring is supposed to go?
I'm assuming with the flat side in the groove? But I'm struggling to get the hub all the way down. Or is it the other way around?
Thanks!
Post by: Oddjob on August 20, 2022, 03:57:26 PM
Make sure you grease the ring where the bearing is located as well as the metal surface that rubs against it on the sprocket carrier, there should be 4 sunken grooves in the carrier, make sure they are full of grease. As the sprocket gets pulled forward by the chain it exerts so much pressure the rubbers inside the hub compress, the carrier moves on that surface slightly forward and gets returned by the pressure from the rubbers, if no grease everything wears and eventually the hub starts to oscillate and that means a new hub.
Post by: juitz on August 20, 2022, 04:18:52 PM
I was worried that with thle flat side up it would catch and possibly tear, when inserting the hub. I'll flip it and go again and will grease as recommended 8)
Post by: Bryanj on August 20, 2022, 06:07:06 PM
Yes to lots of lube/grease on assembly and carfull with the screw in ring although i do believe mr silver sells pattern ones now.
Post by: Oddjob on August 20, 2022, 09:10:16 PM
Post by: Oddjob on August 21, 2022, 01:14:39 PM
Post by: Sesman on August 21, 2022, 01:57:48 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on August 21, 2022, 02:35:52 PM
Post by: Oddjob on August 21, 2022, 03:55:44 PM
Flat side on the hub.
So you think flat side down?
Yet Phil says flat side up and was born out by seeing that was it way it came apart. I'm more and more convinced that I remember it being flat side up. If not why have a flat side at all, just use a normal round O ring.
Maybe someone who's taking a wheel apart soon can report back and solve the mystery.
Post by: Seabeowner on August 21, 2022, 07:50:29 PM
Surely the location in the hub will shoe either a flat or a part circular groove.
Sure Julie is correct.
See pic and Enry's comment here. reply 7
https://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=27593.0
Post by: Oddjob on August 21, 2022, 08:08:28 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on August 21, 2022, 08:48:18 PM
Then why is the groove around the camcover flat when the o ring is round, until someone opens a hub up and lets us know exactly which way round it is we’ll not know for certain.Graham has just opened a hub for Roo. I'll take a photo in the morning. Graham must have fitted maybe 50 of the D rings over the years and I'm sure he remembers which way up they fit.
Post by: Sesman on August 21, 2022, 08:51:34 PM
Post by: Oddjob on August 22, 2022, 12:24:45 AM
Unless of course someone has already replaced the o ring and got it wrong. 😁😁😁😁
Post by: Laverdaroo on August 22, 2022, 12:11:06 PM
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Post by: Laverdaroo on August 22, 2022, 12:11:42 PM
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Post by: Oddjob on August 22, 2022, 12:56:20 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on August 22, 2022, 01:17:06 PM
He's doing a bulld but has little space so we did it at mne. He paid £165 for a complete wheeel but pretty much junked the rest and building from scratch like I'm having to do.
Funnily enough,m the seal is in really good nick and is more than likely reusable in his case.
Post by: Oddjob on August 22, 2022, 04:31:04 PM
Just as a matter of interest when these seals come off they tend to revert back to whatever shape they were manufactured in, if you flip them so in effect the inside is out and the outside is in they will try and flip back to standard. Have you tried doing that? Just as an experiment.
Post by: Sesman on August 22, 2022, 04:42:07 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on August 22, 2022, 06:24:08 PM
You do realise that as the sprocket carrier came off it could have flipped the seal ;D ;D
Just as a matter of interest when these seals come off they tend to revert back to whatever shape they were manufactured in, if you flip them so in effect the inside is out and the outside is in they will try and flip back to standard. Have you tried doing that? Just as an experiment.
I did Ken. I had that as a possibility. You can see from the bottom that it started to curl as the two parts came apart but the rest I had to get a pick under to remove it from the groove due to excess crap all round it (which may have saved it in all honesty). If you flip it inside out as you suggest, it flips back round so the flat side is indeed against the hub in the groove.
Post by: Oddjob on August 22, 2022, 08:25:07 PM
Post by: juitz on August 22, 2022, 09:52:57 PM
The hub did go in easily with flat side up, but I couldn't get it to go in the other way around, even with a generous amount of force with a soft mallet. Maybe more grease needed...
Post by: Oddjob on August 22, 2022, 10:17:14 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on August 22, 2022, 11:27:17 PM
Ohhhh and I'm back in the game ;D ;D ;D
Pa haa haa haaa,spit of tea, Get in there Ken ;D ;D ;D ;D
Post by: Oddjob on August 23, 2022, 12:57:30 PM
Did they find it fouled and couldn't make the groove deeper as it would compromise it's strength? To me it still makes more sense that they trimmed the top of the ring, just enough to still get a seal but enough that it didn't stop the carrier either moving or being installed without any of the problems they must have found in order to have done this in the first place.
Why didn't they just use a thinner section O ring?
They may have put a flat on the ring so that it not only sat lower but resisted being forced out better as the carrier went on, in which case flat side down also makes sense.
This question is bugging the hell out of me.
Post by: Laverdaroo on August 23, 2022, 01:08:43 PM
How's the workmate coming on anyway, I've booked a slot at the Geneva Motor show in the concept and best modified section. From what I gather, the press are eagerly awaiting snippets on its progress and conceptual design changes to announce to the market. ;) :D
Post by: Oddjob on August 23, 2022, 01:18:12 PM
The bolts should arrive either later today or maybe tomorrow. Weather is looking ok ATM and I'm thinking of going for a blast on the 1300.
Always wanted to do Cheddar Gorge so I might pop down next year on the 1300 and have a ride round your area, if I do I'll pop in for a brew if that's ok.
Post by: Laverdaroo on August 23, 2022, 01:31:02 PM
It’s a bit of a trek from Manc but happy to put you up as we have a section of house that we are converting to air BnB after not being able to sell it as the markets crap and we have a quirky house. Stop in there and use it as a base to delve into Devon and Somerset, it’s not bad down here. Bit like Yorkshire but with more apples, silly buggers and sun
The roads aren’t too bad either, just a bit bumpy
I was at cheddar just yesterday having a wobble round and a brew.
Last stop on the way home saw temptation raise its head, I simply couldn’t argue on this occasion, I’m not a drinker these days but good cider or Taylor’s Landlord and I have to give in
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Post by: juitz on August 25, 2022, 11:03:44 AM
Does anyone know the oring size used on the front caliper mounts? I think it's 10x1.7?
https://www.cmsnl.com/products/o-ring_91259300000/
Thanks!
Post by: Oddjob on August 25, 2022, 12:36:26 PM
Post by: juitz on August 28, 2022, 01:36:59 PM
Looking at this seal on the rear wheel, it's not supposed to be recessed? At least, I can get it on the locking ring.
Photo from teardown also isn't flush?
And the oring - in front of the sprocket?
Post by: Bryanj on August 28, 2022, 02:17:04 PM
Post by: Bryanj on August 28, 2022, 02:30:17 PM
Post by: juitz on August 28, 2022, 05:56:04 PM
Post by: juitz on August 28, 2022, 06:12:24 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on August 28, 2022, 06:20:07 PM
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Post by: juitz on August 28, 2022, 06:25:31 PM
Pretty sure I have them, but assume as with any rubber bit I'll have to replace them. Will take a look at CSMNL and find the right p/n 👍
Post by: Laverdaroo on August 28, 2022, 07:28:43 PM
nice one mate 8)
Post by: Bryanj on August 28, 2022, 08:05:06 PM
Post by: Sesman on August 28, 2022, 08:10:19 PM
Post by: juitz on August 30, 2022, 03:56:43 PM
Will keep looking but might have to import one from the US.
Purchased a replacement speedo cable from eBay as my bike didn't have one so I can't compare it to the original. But the one I purchased I'm sure isn't correct as the oring is sitting outside the housing? Inner cavity on speed sensor assembly is 15mm deep and the oring on the cable is at 15mm?
Seller is saying it's the right cable but I can't see how or if I'm missing something.
Post by: Laverdaroo on August 30, 2022, 05:33:23 PM
Post by: Seabeowner on August 30, 2022, 07:07:59 PM
[attach=1]
If you remove the allan head screw, you have to make sure the tang of the speedo drive is aligned with the cut in the drive cable for it to fully insert. The allan screw is supposed to be a cross head screw that fits neatly into the location.
But not seen cable with O ring like that. Is the cable turning with the wheel?
Post by: juitz on August 31, 2022, 10:52:55 PM
The pic from the std cable has the same interface as my replacement unit. I've aligned the tangs so sure its inserted correctly and the speedo does work when turning the wheel by hand.
Does the original cable seal the drive unit against the flat surface after the scalloped section?
Post by: Bryanj on August 31, 2022, 11:47:54 PM
Post by: juitz on September 04, 2022, 05:07:41 PM
Another sanity check!
The rear brake pedal lever- again don't have a good reference photo. Although I took heaps of pictures during the dismantling, lesson learnt that they weren't enough.
Is the rotating hub need to be flush against the frame? See pic attached. The pivot is really close to the swingarm, but eyeballing it looks like its aligned with the drum brake lever?
Post by: juitz on September 04, 2022, 05:08:15 PM
I think thats a later type tacho cable for a different bike but if it works its fine.
Cheer Bryan. It works so will keep it.
Post by: Oddjob on September 04, 2022, 07:40:40 PM
Don't forget to REALLY grease that pivot tube.
Make sure the alignment punch marks line up on both the pin and the lever.
Post by: juitz on September 11, 2022, 12:30:45 PM
Does anyone know of a type of connector I can use for the front brake switch? Can't seem to find the right type?
[attach=1]
Post by: Laverdaroo on September 11, 2022, 12:39:27 PM
Handy for your m-unit stuff like twin earthed spade connectors etc......
Post by: juitz on September 11, 2022, 01:11:20 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on September 11, 2022, 01:12:15 PM
Post by: juitz on October 02, 2022, 05:03:49 PM
M-unit is a great little gadget, but I'm never using an m-button again ;D
Almost all done with exception of the engine electrics.
I've also had a massive headache getting the brake caliper bled. Tried every tip and trick I could find, but I suspect it's the cheapo eBay brake assembly!
Before I go and buy a hopefully better unit, anyone have recommendations on aftermarket units?
I replaced the hoses with aftermarket braided lines,but kept the manifold that houses the brake switch.
The original master cylinder at came with the bike also doesn't work - no return action?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 02, 2022, 05:11:34 PM
Both ways worked for me using minimal fluid - I have a 300 cc syringe but you could use something a little smaller say 200 cc to get enough pressure or suction depending what way you choose.
Virtually no wasted fluid in the process.
Post by: juitz on October 02, 2022, 05:19:56 PM
Prefilled the caliper with the piston as far out as it could be located on rotor.
Bought one of those "one man" bleed bottles and barely get any fluid/air.
The master cylinder just doesn't seem to suck fluid from the reservoir.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 02, 2022, 05:50:08 PM
Hi Ted, yeah tried that and no luck.
Prefilled the caliper with the piston as far out as it could be located on rotor.
Bought one of those "one man" bleed bottles and barely get any fluid/air.
The master cylinder just doesn't seem to suck fluid from the reservoir.
Can you see the lever pushing the piston down in the master cylinder or could it be stuck down - might be worth removing the lever and see if you can see where the piston is?
Failing that I have no other ideas
Post by: Bryanj on October 02, 2022, 06:21:03 PM
Post by: Sesman on October 02, 2022, 09:01:38 PM
Post by: juitz on October 03, 2022, 02:03:43 PM
I can also feed fluid from the bleed nipple all the way to the m/c with a syringe.
Tired the matchbox trick as well.
I may get a single spurt of oil when I press the lever but it just feels like there's air in the system. Any resistance I can feel is from the lever return sprin and friction.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 03, 2022, 02:31:29 PM
I can see the m/c piston moving, and I can prime the m/c.
I can also feed fluid from the bleed nipple all the way to the m/c with a syringe.
Tired the matchbox trick as well.
I may get a single spurt of oil when I press the lever but it just feels like there's air in the system. Any resistance I can feel is from the lever return sprin and friction.
When you feed fluid with a syringe from the bleed nipple do you continue until all bubbles are gone ?
Can you pump the lever until it gives a solid feel then open the bleed nipple and close it before the lever is fully applied ?
Sometimes the air finds its way up on its own when standing overnight after an initial poor lever.
Post by: Oddjob on October 03, 2022, 03:34:45 PM
You could also try this if you're desperate. If you have an original hose refit it onto the MC. Clamp the hose with a pair of mole grips, does the lever go solid, it should. If not try tilting the handlebars so the banjo bolt is at the highest point, gently flick the lever just enough that it's just starting to push the piston, any air trapped will rise to the highest point and should come out of the hole listed above. Every now and then try a harder pull of the lever, don't get the lever to touch the bars EVER, or you can push fluid past the piston. If you can get the lever to lock up solid the MC is working, gently release the mole grips so they just allow fluid past, do a few pumps and then remove the MC from the bars, keep it tilted so the banjo is the highest point. Remove the old line, fit the new with new crush washers. This makes sure the fluid doesn't start to drain away from the MC and allow air in again. Get the lines connected whilst keeping the MC as low as possible and tilted up. When everything is ready try to bleed again but keep the MC low and tilted. Any air now must go up the line, do this until you get pressure then remount the MC on the bars and see how it feels. If not perfect bleed again but this time on the bars. Won't hurt to keep the banjo tilted up by moving the bars.
As the new brake caliper is the same as the OE caliper (but cheaper) I doubt it's that which is causing the problem.
Post by: juitz on October 09, 2022, 03:18:12 PM
But success with the front brake!!!
Finally got the brake bled - went through it step by step and finally got a nice big set of bubbles out of the master cylinder and now have a working front brake.
Once again, thankyou all for your help!
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 09, 2022, 05:13:27 PM
Dont mean to be thick but whats this matchbox trick you mention in the posts? In the past, if ever I've had an issue I always pump up the front brake and cable tie the lever into the bars and leave it over night.
Ive always had great results and a further burp is always forthcoming.
That being said, the only bike that doesnt seem to work on that I've had is Rose, my VFR8, with 11 brake lines and consider the amount of bends and bits it has to snake through means it never bleeds well and is a two man (me and the Long Haired General) and a good two hour job to get it spot on. The whole system being linked with ABS too means its a right pig. Honda have a schedule of works but if you knacker any part of this you have to start again, its that bad!
Post by: Bryanj on October 09, 2022, 05:45:37 PM
Bulletin should be in alladins cave in 750 ones
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 09, 2022, 05:51:37 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 09, 2022, 07:00:21 PM
Post by: juitz on October 13, 2022, 12:33:42 PM
Now to start rebuilding the engine.
I'm going to start with the crankshaft and Conrod bearings, check the clearances and order new shells as required.
Also going to get the cases vapour blasted but looking ahead to painting, it is better paint the cases and assemble, or assemble them paint once all together?
I would like to go with aluminium VHT spray, and will aTRY to cure it with a running engine.
Post by: Oddjob on October 13, 2022, 02:13:09 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 13, 2022, 05:29:57 PM
so air dried them then relying on engine heat.
I found that the unbaked items seemed to mark easily on assembly including from petrol stains.
Post by: Johnny4428 on October 13, 2022, 05:56:37 PM
Post by: juitz on October 14, 2022, 10:54:34 AM
Will have to figure out how to bake the cases as 100% certainty that the wife will not let me do it in our oven.
Post by: Bryanj on October 14, 2022, 11:12:40 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 14, 2022, 11:26:08 AM
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 15, 2022, 02:37:37 AM
The only restriction I have on oven baking in our kitchen is that Wendy has to be at work or out.
I draw the line at baking stuff in the oven, it stinks and covers the oven in a load of gack. The Long Haired Generali s dead tolerant tobe fair, I came home early on in the year to find a 'sooper dooper' new dishwasher installed with the plastic on the front, all lit up like a flying saucer. Apparently the other one that although was shagged out was hanging on in there but decided that it was tine to die that morning. There it was, looked good, all shiney all silent, only two buttons (great for an uninterested Northerner with a slither of an attention span to learn), stainless steel this n that, self cleaning (oh aye!) and all the value of the £500 WE'd been decidedly robbed for it. :o
Prior to this a few weeks previously a small picture of this appliance was poked over the screen of the laptop whilst in the kitchen one day and comments were made on its fantasticness and buildquality, yer know all that guff to justify spending more than you really need to but fancy a splurge..........I had said it was too expensive, she disagreed so we talked, a very clear comprimise was made.......and she bought it. All sorted then. I love her, she's ace!!
Anyhow, I digress; I came home to find 'said', new dishwasher, doing a cycle, and upon asking how come we have a washer full of stuff going on when there was none the night before as i had under sufference done the pots, was informed that it was stuffed to the gunnals with CB400 cases , barrels and head front wheel hub and some other tranclements of her 400. :o :o
"well, you said you wanted to de grease them before you took them to the vapour blasters"...............I knew then, I'd got a keeper.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 15, 2022, 03:08:21 AM
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 15, 2022, 03:17:19 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 15, 2022, 03:37:16 AM
I have, I got a right bollocking. I reckon there was something else in there but thought it best to shut up ;D
Well done Roo - I've not learnt that trick yet I get all defensive so it can end up a full blown row.
Post by: juitz on October 15, 2022, 11:47:57 AM
My wife is very patient, but baking bike parts in the oven will definitely get me a night in the spare room 😂
Post by: Bryanj on October 15, 2022, 12:04:29 PM
Post by: juitz on October 15, 2022, 12:38:21 PM
I can't find it on CSMNL to order a replacement.
Post by: Bryanj on October 15, 2022, 01:00:26 PM
Its £99 plus drat and shipping BUT condensers from Honda are £46 plus EACH and points £ 28 EACH.
There is a lot of people on the US forum condeming aftermarket condensers as failing quickly and points as not accurate, personally i have not had a problem but the batch of condensers i bought was nearly 20 yrs ago
Post by: juitz on October 15, 2022, 01:10:21 PM
Note that I am going to be running this with the Hondaman ignition system.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 15, 2022, 01:30:50 PM
[/quote]
That's another century to add to that lining in the money pit to stop cash leaking out
Post by: Bryanj on October 15, 2022, 01:53:10 PM
Post by: Oddjob on October 15, 2022, 02:20:17 PM
As for the oven, I did my first cure in the oven the other day, I'm trying a complete restoration and renovation of a starter motor, completely in bits. They do get damaged a lot for some reason. Anyway the end caps had been sprayed in that Simoniz silver everyone's using for cases, so I thought I'd cure them, just in case. Did this before the missus came home, yes there were some fumes but when the missus came in and commented on the smell I said the oven was such a disgrace I decided to put it on a cleaning cycle where it heats up to it's hottest and burns all the old crud off the liners and that's what the smell was. She thanked me for being so thoughtful.
See, that's how you do it. You do need an oven with those liners though and a cleaning cycle.
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 15, 2022, 02:47:41 PM
Post by: Sesman on October 15, 2022, 03:15:09 PM
Post by: Oddjob on October 15, 2022, 05:02:26 PM
Evidently that felt was named by someone recently as maybe "hard felt" or something and you can buy it on Ebay. You just need someone to confirm the name so you can search for it, for some reason I seem to think it was JamesH.
Post by: juitz on October 16, 2022, 05:03:22 PM
And I think I've found the felt part
https://www.cmsnl.com/products/felt-oil_30205300154/
Post by: juitz on October 22, 2022, 03:38:13 PM
Any chance anyone knows what shims are used on the spark advancer mechanism. All the ones in mine are in bad/non-useable shape. Not listed as individual parts in CSMNL.
Rather not have buy a whole unit.
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 22, 2022, 03:51:31 PM
Hi all,PM’d you Dave
Any chance anyone knows what shims are used on the spark advancer mechanism. All the ones in mine are in bad/non-useable shape. Not listed as individual parts in CSMNL.
Rather not have buy a whole unit.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: juitz on October 24, 2022, 02:13:10 PM
For curiosity, these are marked with D4I-A STD and such, but nothing comes up in Google? Thought it maybe was a part number?
Post by: Oddjob on October 24, 2022, 03:17:51 PM
One's pretty bad, hows the crank journal on that shell location?
Post by: juitz on October 24, 2022, 05:42:28 PM
The numbers are batch codes, they are normally useless unless you can see the colour still on the side of the shell in which case it's logical to assume that all shells with the batch code on are the same colour.
One's pretty bad, hows the crank journal on that shell location?
Yeah colours are gone on the shells.
I'll take a photo and post it for a second opinion. And I'll take a closer look but on first inspection the crank journals looked OK. Didn't notice anything obvious as the condition of the shells and I didn't feel gouges running a fingernail over the surface.
Post by: Oddjob on October 24, 2022, 06:31:45 PM
Post by: juitz on October 25, 2022, 01:06:22 PM
Post by: Oddjob on October 25, 2022, 01:29:24 PM
Post by: juitz on October 25, 2022, 01:52:42 PM
You need to buy 2 shells for each journal, so 10 main bearing shells and 8 big end or conrod shells and you need to order the correct colour dependent on your crankcase and crankshaft sizes. How to ascertain those sizes is well documented on the forum, just search.
That's what I was afraid of. This is gonna be expensive!
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 25, 2022, 02:15:33 PM
Post by: juitz on October 25, 2022, 04:54:39 PM
Not much change out of £300.
Couple of pics of the crankshaft
Yeah, just costed up new set of crank journals at £170.
Had to go with mainly Greens as Yellow not available anymore. 4 x Green and 1 x Brown
Couple of pics of the crankshaft - nothing notable at least to me to indicate why some of the shells were in poor condition
Post by: Oddjob on October 25, 2022, 05:44:11 PM
Post by: juitz on October 29, 2022, 10:01:45 AM
I want to measure again to double check but for the crank journals I'm at
1 x Brown
1 x green
3 x yellow
Post by: Oddjob on October 29, 2022, 11:00:50 AM
Post by: juitz on October 29, 2022, 11:44:21 AM
So you'd need 6 yellows?
Yes that's right - gotta think of these as pairs!
Also, looking closely at the cases and noticed this nick on the top case at the clutch end journal (see photo). How big of an issue is this?
And why doesn't the middle slot on the top case (3rd from rotor end) have a lubrication hole or slot? It seems like the only one on the top and bottom cases?
Post by: Oddjob on October 29, 2022, 12:01:22 PM
I have 6 yellows if you need them, £15 a shell inc P&P.
I just checked and have 12 yellow mains as it happens.
Still in sealed original bags.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 29, 2022, 12:14:46 PM
So you'd need 6 yellows?
Yes that's right - gotta think of these as pairs!
Also, looking closely at the cases and noticed this nick on the top case at the clutch end journal (see photo). How big of an issue is this?
And why doesn't the middle slot on the top case (3rd from rotor end) have a lubrication hole or slot? It seems like the only one on the top and bottom cases?
Weird optical illusion when you click on the photo to enlarge it slightly - if its the edge part you are talking about as long as the bearing sits in the shell I do not see that as an issue.
I noticed the lack of an oil slot in the centre crank journal - it does seem odd.
Post by: juitz on October 29, 2022, 12:20:10 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm counting journal positions from the rotor side of the crank.
I noticed theres no clearance between the crankshaft and the 2nd crank journal positions and this has obvious signs of wear, especially on one side.
All the other positions look to be ok with clearnace on both top and bottom cases?
Post by: juitz on October 29, 2022, 12:23:13 PM
So you'd need 6 yellows?
Yes that's right - gotta think of these as pairs!
Also, looking closely at the cases and noticed this nick on the top case at the clutch end journal (see photo). How big of an issue is this?
And why doesn't the middle slot on the top case (3rd from rotor end) have a lubrication hole or slot? It seems like the only one on the top and bottom cases?
Weird optical illusion when you click on the photo to enlarge it slightly - if its the edge part you are talking about as long as the bearing sits in the shell I do not see that as an issue.
I noticed the lack of an oil slot in the centre crank journal - it does seem odd.
This is what I have just so I'm not crazy 🤣
Took another photo with the shell in but you should see the nick. I don't think it's an issue as the shell is stationary but I'm being careful as I can.
Post by: Bryanj on October 29, 2022, 12:23:39 PM
Post by: juitz on October 29, 2022, 12:27:17 PM
One journal has less clearance to reduce end float, cars have specific thrust washers but then they also have clutch end load
Ok, phew! Yes this makes perfect sense!
Post by: Bryanj on October 29, 2022, 12:29:45 PM
Post by: Oddjob on October 29, 2022, 12:32:45 PM
Juitz, just checking but do your crankcase markings (on the bottom rear crankcase) have some letter A's.
Post by: juitz on October 29, 2022, 12:37:20 PM
Think they go to the little ends Bryan via the crank drillings.
Juitz, just checking but do your crankcase markings (on the bottom rear crankcase) have some letter A's.
Yes they're faint but all of them have a 1 & A stamped
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 29, 2022, 12:52:39 PM
Mine are AABBB its usually very visible in the alloy surface.
Post by: juitz on October 29, 2022, 01:33:41 PM
These are BAABA
Used a Vernier to measure the crank diameters and all were >32.99mm with the exception of the diameter at the rotor end that was around 32.986 / 32.988 so put this down as 32.98
Using the selelction table is the manual I got the bearings for the crankshaft journals as:
2x Brown (Table 2/B)
2x Green (Table 1B)
6 x Yellow (Table 1A)
Post by: Oddjob on October 29, 2022, 01:50:20 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 29, 2022, 02:03:58 PM
One journal has less clearance to reduce end float, cars have specific thrust washers but then they also have clutch end load
Thats an interesting factoid Bryan.
Post by: juitz on October 30, 2022, 09:20:39 AM
I've tried to do a little test on the oil filter cover with nitromors to strip paint and also soda blasting but nothing much gained. Nitromors didnt touch the paint.
I thought vapour blasting might be the way to go to get the cases clean and ready for paint prep, but not sure if I need to get the paint professionally stripped before hand?
Post by: Sesman on October 30, 2022, 09:38:53 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 30, 2022, 10:27:48 AM
Post by: juitz on October 30, 2022, 11:07:28 AM
Where do you get the industrial paint stripper? All info says this is hard to get?
There is a local place 3mins from here that will do acid dip and vapour blasting, so will hit them up for a quote.
The transmy countershaft has some corrosion, and it has a seal that isn't listed separately in the manual. Assume this is cleaned up and left as is generally?
Post by: Bryanj on October 30, 2022, 11:23:22 AM
Post by: Oddjob on October 30, 2022, 11:48:44 AM
Post by: juitz on October 30, 2022, 12:16:25 PM
I did not notice the parts book, only the user/owners manual.
I've been using CSMNL for parts lists, but the books look to be much better source.
Post by: Sesman on October 30, 2022, 01:01:53 PM
Hi Ted,
Where do you get the industrial paint stripper? All info says this is hard to get?
There is a local place 3mins from here that will do acid dip and vapour blasting, so will hit them up for a quote.
The transmy countershaft has some corrosion, and it has a seal that isn't listed separately in the manual. Assume this is cleaned up and left as is generally?
I’d go for Synstryp….it’s very effective.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 30, 2022, 01:29:30 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 30, 2022, 07:49:21 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 31, 2022, 07:34:02 PM
I'm gonna admit being a total dummy.
I did not notice the parts book, only the user/owners manual.
I've been using CSMNL for parts lists, but the books look to be much better source.
David.... Could you read your emails please. Ta
Post by: juitz on October 31, 2022, 08:23:12 PM
Regarding your rusty output shaft end - I soaked my end bit in Evaporust. Sounds like Snake Oil but it works without eating onto the steel as it works by breaking the bond between good steel & the rust + iron oxide. I then dipped the clean part in gun blueing to passivate it.
Have some evaporust so will give this a go. Not done gun gun blueing before though, will do a bit of reading.
Post by: juitz on October 31, 2022, 08:24:05 PM
I'm gonna admit being a total dummy.
I did not notice the parts book, only the user/owners manual.
I've been using CSMNL for parts lists, but the books look to be much better source.
David.... Could you read your emails please. Ta
Hi Julie, have replied 👍
Post by: juitz on November 05, 2022, 02:34:30 PM
Also, looking at replacing o-rings there are two in the covers and housing but the parts list on shows only (the one outside the main housing. The one located on the rotor shaft cover isn't listed - are these the same?
Finally, I need to replace the rubber boots and insulation on the cable. I've seen a thread where the cable is replaced and uses a 6mm thread stud, but that was due to the cable being cut. I plan stripping the insulation and using high kV rated heat shrink. Wondering if people have done this by other ways?
Thanks!
Post by: Oddjob on November 05, 2022, 04:45:37 PM
Debris inside the casings is common, it's the residue of the carbon brushes inside.
If you look at the 500 parts book instead of the 550K3 one, same starter motor essentially, then it gives the dimensions of both, I know I just bought a load of them as I have 5 or 6 starter motors to refurbish.
Seeing this is common BTW
(https://i.postimg.cc/wv2k5JH3/IMG-2892.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CBZDSRRV)
Not a great idea to leave it like that as a couple of the strands are close to touching the motor body.
I cleaned up everything, totally dismantled the motor including taking the windings out of the body, cleaning the armature etc, replaced the screws holding the windings onto the body with stainless ones, removed the rust from the winding supports, removed all damage from end caps and resprayed with Simoniz silver paint etc
Came out like this
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cx8HP9Y3/IMG-2891.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DS2XmjS6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nfq08nJ9/IMG-2890.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Sjdqkgpk)
The cable was a temporary one I made to replace the battery to solenoid, I also found somewhere selling the rubber boots but that was after I took the pics, I'll cover the connectors with shrink wrap later as well.
Post by: juitz on November 05, 2022, 04:57:44 PM
I was just going to give it a clean / tidy up but now I'm inspired to do the same! I'll look at the 500 book as suggested.
Cable/strands look ok to be honest, just need to clean up the insulation at the body as it has the same exposed section.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 05, 2022, 06:22:32 PM
Post by: juitz on November 13, 2022, 11:49:39 AM
I'm currently compiling a list of "wearable" items in the engine that I need to replace, including all seals, gaskets, o-ring, bearings, etc...
I have taken look through the Vesrah kit parts list and compared it to the part numbers in the CB550K3 parts book - the only item that doesn't match is "11394-390-306 - Crankcase Cover Gasket - x1" where the parts book for both the CB550K3 (E-7 Item2) and 1975 CB550F2 (E-6 Item2) says it's 11394-390-300?
Finally, with a list of 58 items that I've identified that should be replaced in the engine, just wondering which of the parts books would be the better source to getting correct parts?
Post by: Oddjob on November 13, 2022, 12:15:58 PM
If it's a 500 stay with the 500 book, same as 550, F stay with the F book and K stay with the K book.
Post by: juitz on November 13, 2022, 04:25:11 PM
Any recommendations for clutch friction plates. I'm thinking EBC?
Post by: Oddjob on November 13, 2022, 04:31:00 PM
What's wrong with the plates you have now?
Post by: Bryanj on November 13, 2022, 05:18:10 PM
Post by: Oddjob on November 13, 2022, 06:28:21 PM
Post by: Bryanj on November 13, 2022, 07:49:07 PM
As to clutch plates try it first it may well not need them
Post by: Oddjob on November 14, 2022, 12:37:54 AM
Post by: juitz on November 15, 2022, 12:50:25 AM
If you need some I have loads of them.
My only concern is the unknown history of the bike. No service, mileage records and given the state of other parts I feel like I should just play it safe and get new friction plates. The clutch assy still had oil in it, but I don't know how good or bad the friction material condition is.
I'd rather save the money, but I'd also rather not have to strip the engine and clutch after the first ride 😂
Post by: Oddjob on November 15, 2022, 02:48:29 AM
As I said, IF you do need some I have a bucket full of them. Also have pressure plates, measure them as well.
Clutch plates on these bikes seem to last for ages, mine are still in after over 160K and my other bike has the original plates with over 250K on them.
Post by: juitz on November 15, 2022, 11:38:46 PM
I'll measure them up on the weekend - will have to invest in a new set of verniers though as the cheapo pair I bought randomly offsets +/- 5mm when it goes above 10mm and won't turn off. Not very trustworthy...
Post by: juitz on November 20, 2022, 04:09:20 PM
Noticed that they have a Vesrah vg-155 gasket kit - this is the recommended one correct?
Post by: Laverdaroo on November 20, 2022, 04:25:09 PM
Post by: juitz on November 20, 2022, 04:59:01 PM
To confirm, are you referring to 11394-390-000?
Post by: Laverdaroo on November 20, 2022, 05:07:45 PM
The one that came with mine was utter crap and the holes were miles out, about 31/2mm which is loads.
Bin! 8)
Post by: juitz on November 20, 2022, 05:27:35 PM
Aarp, that's eeee'.
The one that came with mine was utter crap and the holes were miles out, about 31/2mm which is loads.
Bin! 8)
Cheers bud!
Post by: juitz on November 26, 2022, 11:23:14 AM
Not sure on paint but am leaning to keeping it all silver using VHT paint.
[attachimg=1]
Im trying to size up the Conrod bearing clearances to replace them, but am a bit unsure on the key / bearing tang to exahust side in the manual.
Is the way i have it in the picture correct?
[attaching=4]
Post by: mickwinf on November 26, 2022, 11:38:09 AM
Post by: Bryanj on November 26, 2022, 12:00:11 PM
Post by: juitz on November 26, 2022, 12:00:25 PM
Looking at the manual on how to select bearing shells for Conrods, I've got:
2D, 2D, 2D, 3D
All shaft pin diametere are 34.99
I've plastigauged rod one between the cap and bearing and between bearing and pin. Both measured 0.038mm clearance.
I'm not sure where to go from here though as the manual has bearing selection based on the rod stampings and pin diametera. Can't find where in the manual the clearances come in to select the correct shell?
If I go by the manual, I need 6 brown and 2 greens.
Post by: Bryanj on November 26, 2022, 12:48:03 PM
The clearances are in the Honda manual, both max and normal but can't get at mine at the moment. There is also a table cross referring pin size and code to rod code, ideally you fit the specified new shell and check clearance with plastigauge altering shells if needed, that gets costly
Post by: juitz on November 26, 2022, 01:13:08 PM
You do not put plastigauge between shell and rod, or cap, only on one shell and torque the cap.
The clearances are in the Honda manual, both max and normal but can't get at mine at the moment. There is also a table cross referring pin size and code to rod code, ideally you fit the specified new shell and check clearance with plastigauge altering shells if needed, that gets costly
Thanks Brian. Think I need to sit and get my around the two different tables in the manuals.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 26, 2022, 01:16:58 PM
Post by: Bryanj on November 26, 2022, 03:02:06 PM
Post by: Oddjob on November 26, 2022, 03:07:37 PM
Thanks Mick.
Looking at the manual on how to select bearing shells for Conrods, I've got:
2D, 2D, 2D, 3D
All shaft pin diameter are 34.99
I've plastigauged rod one between the cap and bearing and between bearing and pin. Both measured 0.038mm clearance.
I'm not sure where to go from here though as the manual has bearing selection based on the rod stampings and pin diametera. Can't find where in the manual the clearances come in to select the correct shell?
If I go by the manual, I need 6 brown and 2 greens.
Not sure where you've got that info from for bearing selection, there is no letter D in the bearing selection chart. Your crank markings look very clear, I can clearly see 1A on the rotor end crank webbing, the number 1 is for the crankshaft main journal, the letter A is for the conrod journal, so whatever number is printed on that conrod is what you need to check selection. The letter on the conrod is it's weight code, all the rods should have the same code so the crank is balanced.
Take a pic showing the crank markings and if possible the conrods showing the numbers printed on them, just to confirm the colour selection. Your shells look ok for re-use TBH, I'd just clean everything meticulously and refit them with some graphogen.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 26, 2022, 04:45:05 PM
Will this be an issue - presumably I could weight them individually then if 3 is heavier have it lightened ?
Post by: Oddjob on November 26, 2022, 04:46:01 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 26, 2022, 04:48:03 PM
It's the letter not the number that's the weight code Ted.
Heart attack averted then.
Post by: Oddjob on November 26, 2022, 04:53:05 PM
The ones on the crankcase are letters, always remember that. Those are the ones stamped into the back of the bottom case usually, like BBABC. Honda would not do a letter and letter combination as there's far too much chance to get it wrong, so if the crankcase is letters then you need numbers off the crank to select the main bearings. If you remember that then it's simple to work out that the only thing left on the crank printing/stamping is the letter, so those must refer to the conrod journal. Again, must be letter/number combination so if crank is letter then rod must be number, that leaves the letter as the weight code.
If you can always remember that then working out what is what becomes so much easier.
Post by: juitz on November 27, 2022, 09:49:42 AM
Thanks Mick.
Looking at the manual on how to select bearing shells for Conrods, I've got:
2D, 2D, 2D, 3D
All shaft pin diameter are 34.99
I've plastigauged rod one between the cap and bearing and between bearing and pin. Both measured 0.038mm clearance.
I'm not sure where to go from here though as the manual has bearing selection based on the rod stampings and pin diametera. Can't find where in the manual the clearances come in to select the correct shell?
If I go by the manual, I need 6 brown and 2 greens.
Not sure where you've got that info from for bearing selection, there is no letter D in the bearing selection chart. Your crank markings look very clear, I can clearly see 1A on the rotor end crank webbing, the number 1 is for the crankshaft main journal, the letter A is for the conrod journal, so whatever number is printed on that conrod is what you need to check selection. The letter on the conrod is it's weight code, all the rods should have the same code so the crank is balanced.
Take a pic showing the crank markings and if possible the conrods showing the numbers printed on them, just to confirm the colour selection. Your shells look ok for re-use TBH, I'd just clean everything meticulously and refit them with some graphogen.
Apologies, I think I'm confusing things here.
The Conrods had markings on one side of "2" for pistons 1-3 and "3"on piston4. They were all marked "D" on the other side - which are the weight codes. I just typed all the info in the last post.
The crank is marked 1A at all locations.
I took some pictures of all the bearing shells for visual "assessment". I have to replace at least one conrod shell though as I scrapped it trying to roemove it.
The conrod markings are gone or just barely visible. My fault for trying to clean these up in the ultrasoniccleaner
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Bryanj on November 27, 2022, 12:32:31 PM
Post by: juitz on November 27, 2022, 01:54:21 PM
To be honest, from the pics you posted they look contaminated by dirty oil infrquently changed, will br expensive but i would change them all. What do the mains look like?
Mains for example, these have scuffing .
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Sesman on November 27, 2022, 02:14:34 PM
All journals were in perfect unmarked condition. From this I deducted: Mains C1; big ends A2. All rods being weight ‘D’. The engine was untouched, as far as my forensic skills can tell, and the mileage being confirmed as 17k miles.
Some queries: how unusual is it have such repeatability in the cases, mains and big ends ID? Did Honda get better at manufacturing tolerances or just more relaxed about machining and weight tolerances? Motor is a 1977 F2.
Post by: Oddjob on November 27, 2022, 02:19:38 PM
I have some if you need them, got more than 10 IIRC.
Post by: Oddjob on November 27, 2022, 02:21:36 PM
Interesting exchange this one. My cases were stamped CCCCC. The crank webs were marked A1 and the rods D2.
All journals were in perfect unmarked condition. From this I deducted: Mains C1; big ends A2. All rods being weight ‘D’. The engine was untouched, as far as my forensic skills can tell, and the mileage being confirmed as 17k miles.
Some queries: how unusual is it have such repeatability in the cases, mains and big ends ID? Did Honda get better at manufacturing tolerances or just more relaxed about machining and weight tolerances? Motor is a 1977 F2.
Luck of the draw TBH Phil, nice when it happens but it's rare TBH to see it..
Spot on with your deductions.
Post by: Sesman on November 27, 2022, 02:38:46 PM
The engine sounds absolutely mint by the way. Just a nice soft rustling from the top end and no knocks from the bottom end under load.
Gonna thrash it next year.
Post by: Oddjob on November 27, 2022, 02:40:54 PM
Post by: juitz on November 27, 2022, 04:48:14 PM
In that case you'd be correct with 6 greens and 2 browns for the rods. The crank as I'm sure you've worked out are all yellows. Hard to find these days.
I have some if you need them, got more than 10 IIRC.
Cheers, ill ping you a DM to see what we can do with the yellows 👍
Post by: Bryanj on November 27, 2022, 04:53:39 PM
Post by: juitz on December 05, 2022, 06:51:40 AM
[attach=1]
Post by: Sesman on December 05, 2022, 08:12:37 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 05, 2022, 12:47:57 PM
I've just been painting my steering yoke on the 500 - I used what is effectively a heat lamp - a pair of 500W tungsten lamps on a tripod to heat up my Spray Booth - a large cardboard box.
Left under the lamps after painting for 30 minutes then moved the bits into the house for more drying.
Final drying was done by putting the bits on top of the radiator for 48 hours.
FWIW your cases look pretty good to me in terms of finish.
PS My can of paint was kept in the house so was at around 75 F before I started.
Post by: juitz on December 05, 2022, 10:44:23 PM
I also used a heat gun to help dry the paint a bit before curing it in (ahem) my BBQ. Warmed it up nice and let the parts cure at around 180degC for a over an hour.
Post by: Laverdaroo on December 05, 2022, 11:19:51 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: juitz on December 06, 2022, 06:28:50 AM
Only place I can find that has it is honda4parts.nl but they have a minimum purchase of £135 ☹️
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 06, 2022, 08:00:56 AM
IIRC the sample was long enough - they do a number of diameters less than £3.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384349352378?var=652522935873
Post by: Oddjob on December 06, 2022, 11:19:22 AM
Post by: juitz on December 11, 2022, 01:38:51 PM
Have a slight issue ion the upper crank case.
I seemed to have damaged part of the thread for the m8x100 bolts.
There's still thread there to engage, but I think I'll need longer bolts. I'm thinking 120mm should do it.
Has this happened to anyone before?
The pic shows a normal thread on left, and the one on the right is about 20mm lower before engaging thread.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 11, 2022, 02:03:07 PM
Have you tried putting a tap of the original size down the hole?
Post by: juitz on December 11, 2022, 02:11:04 PM
The hole is 35.6mm deep, so assume there must be available thread to use.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 11, 2022, 02:27:00 PM
Not sure if a deeper thread would change the loading on the top casing in some way that was undesirable.
Post by: K2-K6 on December 11, 2022, 02:28:26 PM
Having a case/casting hole that has a tapped thread right up to the surface is simply a different design to one that uses a clearance bore first with the thread deeper inside the casting (the top threaded type tries to pull the surface up at the gasket, making distortion more likely) with the deeper type design aiming to avoid this.
Accuracy in understanding, with input from those on here having relevant experience of that engine, is key to understanding if it's actually damaged or designed like that in the first place.
Bolt length is absolutely critical on these, as it is for many tightly designed structures.
Post by: juitz on December 11, 2022, 03:33:24 PM
You need to be careful in judging just what you have and the design that's been used originally in these crankcase.
Having a case/casting hole that has a tapped thread right up to the surface is simply a different design to one that uses a clearance bore first with the thread deeper inside the casting (the top threaded type tries to pull the surface up at the gasket, making distortion more likely) with the deeper type design aiming to avoid this.
Accuracy in understanding, with input from those on here having relevant experience of that engine, is key to understanding if it's actually damaged or designed like that in the first place.
Bolt length is absolutely critical on these, as it is for many tightly designed structures.
Totally agree which is why as always, asking the experts.
My casings have a clearance section followed by thread. Given the load is tensile as the bolts are trying to pull the two halves together, I think the key item is to ensure the bolts have enough / same number of engaged threads to not overstress the bolt when tightening these up to approx 23Nm as per manual.
Having said that, feel like I'm missing or overlooking something here 😉
Post by: K2-K6 on December 11, 2022, 04:18:54 PM
General assessment though, put the corresponding bolt in through clearance crankcase side with correct washer etc, then mark (white paint) where it protrudes from face of casting and facing the other case half.
Then put that bolt into it's thread location such that you can only just feel the thread's at their very start. Now measure the distance between that original mark and the crankcase face to give you the distance the threads are now going to engage when they would be fully tightened. That figure in general fastener design should be at least 1.5x bolt diameter to take expected load. So a 6mm bolt would need 9mm of engagement as minimum, etc for different bolt diameter.
This effectively measures by deleting the "counterbore" section to let you judge each one individually.
As mentioned, this is general engineering principle (that thread engagement length multiple) but with the provisos that there just may be some slightly different in these engines.
The risk is pulling threads out of the aluminium case without enough engagement, rather than risk to steel bolt.
Post by: juitz on December 14, 2022, 02:31:28 PM
120mm length bolts don't work and taking some measurements I only have about 6mm of available thread to engage.
I'm thinking keen-sert is probably only option.
I can't replace the cover as this has the engine number stamp on it.
Post by: Bryanj on December 14, 2022, 02:51:07 PM
Post by: juitz on December 14, 2022, 05:02:47 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on December 14, 2022, 06:53:12 PM
Post by: juitz on December 14, 2022, 07:47:18 PM
I prefer the time-serts over the helicoil. Although quite dear, they're never going to move of snap etc. I had three done on the 400 cases as they were completely shot. They just feel more substantial than helicoils.
Only issue is that the time-sert need a seating surface. As the case has a counterbore section, not sure I'll have enough material to drill and allow the time-sert to seat at the required depth.
Post by: K2-K6 on December 14, 2022, 08:48:43 PM
Straight through hole such as spark plug etc you'd certainly give more consideration to timesert type repair.
Post by: K2-K6 on December 14, 2022, 09:31:20 PM
Post by: juitz on December 15, 2022, 11:52:50 AM
Note;- you can buy Helicoil in longer length if that's more suitable to match original orientation of machining, 2.0 X instead of 1.5.
Good stuff! I'll buy a kit today and order a longer length one. I was a bit confused when looking yesterday as all I could see where std ones but found the 2D, 3D options 👍
Post by: juitz on December 19, 2022, 03:06:28 PM
Think I've got the case thread issue sorted with a helicoil. Need to get a 90mm length bolt but using a cut down 100mm one for now.
Anyway, have done my first plastigaug measurement on some of the crank journals where I have purchased new shells as per my measurements. From left to right on bottom casing as sitting on the bike I took two measurements.
brown at journal pos 1 = 0.05/0.063 then 0.038/0.063
Yellow at journal pos2 = 0.05 then 0.038/0.05
Green at journal pos4= 0.05 then 0.038
The pos3 and 5 are old shells where I think I need yellows.
The limit is 0.08mm but standard is 0.018mm to 0.048mm.
Should I stick with the shells or go with another shell colour?
What I'm confused about is the original shells measured 0.038mm when I plastigauged them....could it be the cold weather and parts shrinkage?
Post by: Oddjob on December 19, 2022, 04:21:22 PM
Post by: juitz on December 19, 2022, 08:59:36 PM
Post by: juitz on December 21, 2022, 10:07:36 AM
Not sure what the spring rate is supposed to be but mine are not returning the little arms very fast. It's almost a damped return, and one of them was definitely slower than the other. I twisted the spring a bit and it looks to return at the same rate as the other, but it now doesn't look very straight.
Is it supposed to be a "snappy" return? Or maybe the grease I've used is to thick?
Post by: K2-K6 on December 21, 2022, 10:18:56 AM
You could use silicone "plumbing" supplied grease as it will be OK at both extremes of temperature range on the spindle.
Check live timing once running with a strobe to see if it settles down to minimum ok.
Post by: juitz on December 21, 2022, 02:32:24 PM
They can hang a it if lubrication is thicker than ideal.
You could use silicone "plumbing" supplied grease as it will be OK at both extremes of temperature range on the spindle.
Check live timing once running with a strobe to see if it settles down to minimum ok.
Yeah good shout. Its relatively easy to pull out if thngs arent working as they should. Got a long way to go before I check live timing though!
Post by: juitz on December 22, 2022, 02:47:13 PM
Can I just confirm that I don't need to use Hondabond in this situation?
Post by: Nurse Julie on December 22, 2022, 02:51:54 PM
Hey all, picked up a set of Vesrah gaskets for my engine rebuild.Hondabond is only used for sticking top and bottom crank cases together as they are machined surfaces and use no gasket. Only the lightest, lightest smear of Hondabond is needed though. All gaskets are fitted dry or with a very light smear of grease (ie, clutch casing, sump pan etc etc) we fit them dry though. No grease on head gasket though.
Can I just confirm that I don't need to use Hondabond in this situation?
Post by: juitz on December 22, 2022, 03:15:24 PM
Hey all, picked up a set of Vesrah gaskets for my engine rebuild.Hondabond is only used for sticking top and bottom crank cases together as they are machined surfaces and use no gasket. Only the lightest, lightest smear of Hondabond is needed though. All gaskets are fitted dry or with a very light smear of grease (ie, clutch casing, sump pan etc etc) we fit them dry though. No grease on head gasket though.
Can I just confirm that I don't need to use Hondabond in this situation?
Thanks Julie. One more thing, I purchased Hondabond HT, is this OK? Or should I be using Hondabond 4?
Post by: Nurse Julie on December 22, 2022, 03:18:38 PM
Either is fine to use.Hey all, picked up a set of Vesrah gaskets for my engine rebuild.Hondabond is only used for sticking top and bottom crank cases together as they are machined surfaces and use no gasket. Only the lightest, lightest smear of Hondabond is needed though. All gaskets are fitted dry or with a very light smear of grease (ie, clutch casing, sump pan etc etc) we fit them dry though. No grease on head gasket though.
Can I just confirm that I don't need to use Hondabond in this situation?
Thanks Julie. One more thing, I purchased Hondabond HT, is this OK? Or should I be using Hondabond 4?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 23, 2022, 12:02:42 PM
Following advice from Julie the secret appears to be - don't squeeze it onto the crankcase directly out of the tube - obviously apply to the inverted upper case only
I wore surgical type gloves - applied a small amount less than half an inch directly onto my fore finger then spread it onto the crankcase starting at one end repeating once the finger full had spread as far as it could. Repeat until all applied. I actually put the Hondabond on my left finger then dipped my right fore finger and spread it nice and thinly.I then removed any excess that had spilled over the inside edges. It spreads so thin I found using this method. Sorry if I'm being over descriptive & stating the obvious.
Then assembled making sure I bolted up in correct sequence as per manual keeping my eye on the primary drive assembly etc.
Post by: Oddjob on December 23, 2022, 02:18:35 PM
Having split my 400 crank case 3 times I became more skilled at applying a nice thin layer of Hondabond each time.
Following advice from Julie the secret appears to be - don't squeeze it onto the crankcase directly out of the tube - obviously apply to the inverted upper case only
I wore surgical type gloves - applied a small amount less than half an inch directly onto my fore finger then spread it onto the crankcase starting at one end repeating once the finger full had spread as far as it could. Repeat until all applied. I actually put the Hondabond on my left finger then dipped my right fore finger and spread it nice and thinly.I then removed any excess that had spilled over the inside edges. It spreads so thin I found using this method. Sorry if I'm being over descriptive & stating the obvious.
Then assembled making sure I bolted up in correct sequence as per manual keeping my eye on the primary drive assembly etc.
After perfecting this method Ted found that he was quite proficient at doing Prostate exams and now works for the NHS as a freelance poker.
Post by: juitz on December 23, 2022, 02:25:14 PM
Post by: juitz on December 23, 2022, 02:27:41 PM
Post by: Oddjob on December 23, 2022, 02:36:59 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on December 23, 2022, 03:52:04 PM
Having split my 400 crank case 3 times I became more skilled at applying a nice thin layer of Hondabond each time.
Following advice from Julie the secret appears to be - don't squeeze it onto the crankcase directly out of the tube - obviously apply to the inverted upper case only
I wore surgical type gloves - applied a small amount less than half an inch directly onto my fore finger then spread it onto the crankcase starting at one end repeating once the finger full had spread as far as it could. Repeat until all applied. I actually put the Hondabond on my left finger then dipped my right fore finger and spread it nice and thinly.I then removed any excess that had spilled over the inside edges. It spreads so thin I found using this method. Sorry if I'm being over descriptive & stating the obvious.
Then assembled making sure I bolted up in correct sequence as per manual keeping my eye on the primary drive assembly etc.
After perfecting this method Ted found that he was quite proficient at doing Prostate exams and now works for the NHS as a freelance poker.
;D ;D ;D
Post by: juitz on December 23, 2022, 04:32:27 PM
It's 1mm thick, check the clutch case as they sometimes stick to the inside of the case.
Cheers.
I did take a photo when I was stripping down the engine and noted back then it was missing. Didn't notice anything in the case though at the time.
Post by: Oddjob on December 23, 2022, 06:06:12 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 23, 2022, 06:49:11 PM
After perfecting this method Ted found that he was quite proficient at doing Prostate exams and now works for the NHS as a freelance poker.
Ah the finger of fudge test - lovely.
Post by: juitz on December 27, 2022, 01:46:07 PM
Hope everyone had/is having a nice holiday break.
Sorting out transmission shafts and found a roller bearing cage that I can't identify where it's from?
I have the 20mm and 22mm roller bearings already sorted. Can anyone point me to where this 28mm unit belongs?
Post by: Trigger on December 27, 2022, 01:48:13 PM
Hello all,
Hope everyone had/is having a nice holiday break.
Sorting out transmission shafts and found a roller bearing cage that I can't identify where it's from?
I have the 20mm and 22mm roller bearings already sorted. Can anyone point me to where this 28mm unit belongs?
looks to be from the primary shaft ;)
Post by: Laverdaroo on December 27, 2022, 01:50:28 PM
I have a pair of spares if you need.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: juitz on December 27, 2022, 01:54:57 PM
The cage in the middle doesn't fit into either housing 😕
OK figured it out, it's the needle roller bearing for the starter gear.
Post by: juitz on December 27, 2022, 03:39:09 PM
Is there a reference mark? Or should it be pressed against the bearing once that is installed?
Post by: Oddjob on December 27, 2022, 03:53:40 PM
Post by: juitz on December 27, 2022, 04:14:32 PM
Yeah, I'd butt it up against the bearing, once that's installed in the correct position of course.
Ok, so my thought here is to install circlip, press bearing until it butts up against the bearing then press the ring against the bearing.
Post by: Bryanj on December 27, 2022, 04:53:21 PM
Post by: Oddjob on December 27, 2022, 05:25:21 PM
Or ask someone to measure the distance it's sat from the end of the shaft.
Post by: juitz on December 28, 2022, 10:11:33 PM
If you look carefully you can see a ring around the shaft, that looks to be where it was sat originally. There is a small o-ring between the bearing and the collar, don't forget that.
Or ask someone to measure the distance it's sat from the end of the shaft.
Yep, got a new o-ring as well for this.
I guess if anyone has a countershaft laying around, a measurement would be great 8)
Post by: juitz on December 29, 2022, 01:21:22 PM
Primary shaft installation - is this correct?
The bearing ID sits on a spline, with a reduced ratio spline sticking out the drive oil pump?
Post by: Oddjob on December 29, 2022, 02:07:07 PM
Post by: juitz on December 31, 2022, 02:04:39 PM
Found a kit on ebay that has the required parts for the covers including some M6x32 cap heads.
Do you know where I could source these, as a straight up google search doesn't yield any decent results? Or do I just cut a bunch of M6x35 down to size?
Post by: Laverdaroo on December 31, 2022, 02:22:50 PM
Post by: Bryanj on December 31, 2022, 03:01:51 PM
Post by: juitz on December 31, 2022, 03:09:14 PM
Dont forget some of the cam cover bolts need to be button head, if you use cap you cant fit, or undo, some of the tappet caps!
Yeah thanks Brian. I took a few hours earlier today compiled a list of all the bolts i wanted to replace with either cap head or button.
Post by: juitz on December 31, 2022, 04:04:53 PM
I bought a kit for mine bur didnt use it Dave, you need it posting up?
Sent you a PM
Post by: Oddjob on December 31, 2022, 04:23:30 PM
Post by: juitz on January 08, 2023, 03:12:55 PM
I want to replace the o-ring on the oil-pump cover. I missed this previously as it's not shown in the parts list (pump is shown as a single assy).
From this thread part number is 91305-426-003 http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112985.0
Just want to confirm this is correct :)
Post by: Sesman on January 08, 2023, 03:23:54 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 08, 2023, 03:38:51 PM
PM me and I will give a discount and do post at cost.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Bryanj on January 08, 2023, 03:51:54 PM
Post by: juitz on January 09, 2023, 08:05:05 PM
Next question! Is this spring oriented correctly, hard to tell from the part list image.
Post by: juitz on January 09, 2023, 08:08:27 PM
Thanks all :)
Next question! Is this shift mech spring oriented correctly, hard to tell from the part list image.
Post by: Bryanj on January 09, 2023, 08:09:22 PM
Post by: juitz on January 14, 2023, 12:34:26 PM
Need a bit of guidance/tips as I'm struggling to do the static points adjustment.
- I've checked the spark advance mechncam position, and the dot on the cam is on the same side as the TEC marking and hole (which i think is correct).
- I've installed the spark advance mechanism and points assembly, rotated the crank until the points are open at their widest, adjusted the airgap to 0.350mm using shims.
- Using multimeter continuity I am trying to get the points to open at the cylinder1-4 F marking, but the points open around the two markings that show || 1.4 before the F and T marks.
- Tried to rotate the entire ignition assembly but this doesn't have enough adjustment.
- I've tried both original and aftermarket points. Crank is rotated clockwise.
What am I missing or doing wrong here?
Thanks!
Post by: Oddjob on January 14, 2023, 01:55:18 PM
Post by: juitz on January 14, 2023, 02:08:59 PM
Explain the shims comment as there are no shims for the points? You just loosen the screw holding the points to the plate and use a screwdriver to alter the gap, around 14-16 thou iirc. I always use a dwell meter to set the point gap as you can do it whilst the engines running. I’d do the gap as above for the initial setting though. Try lowering the gap a little, seem to recall Nigel recommending 12 thou. Don’t do metric sorry, old school.
Sorry - meant feeler gauge instead of shims!
I've adjusted the airgap by undoing the screw holding the points to the main plate. Tighten up then rotate crank unti 1-4 F mark.
Tried with smaller airgap - 0.3mm (12 thou) instead of the 0.35mm (14 thou). But still no luck. Wondering if the cam is not right.
Photo is where points open.
Post by: Oddjob on January 14, 2023, 02:22:38 PM
Post by: juitz on January 15, 2023, 09:00:56 AM
It took a few goes, but in the end i managed to get the timing correct with a 0.3mm airgap. But I have no idea why?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 15, 2023, 10:56:59 AM
But I have no idea why?
Tbh we've all had that experience I suspect.
My last similar issue was when the primary gear shaft would not fit into the second bearing on the 400. For no discernible reason after 20 mins & a coffee break it just laughed at me and fitted.
Post by: juitz on January 22, 2023, 04:57:26 PM
Engine rebuild is going but slowly. Unfortunately, house reno items are higher priority in the missus list of things to do.
Quick one for this week, as I can't find the assembly.
Which way does the neutral switch go on the shaft? Is this right way around?
Post by: Sesman on January 22, 2023, 05:17:41 PM
Post by: Bryanj on January 22, 2023, 05:29:43 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 22, 2023, 06:57:20 PM
Post by: Bryanj on January 22, 2023, 09:02:21 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 23, 2023, 06:47:02 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 23, 2023, 07:22:19 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 23, 2023, 12:51:30 PM
If it's for a 500 I'll take one please Bryan👍
Post by: Oddjob on January 23, 2023, 03:46:07 PM
Post by: juitz on January 24, 2023, 12:27:45 AM
My unit looks ok incl. Lug on the back so will crack on 👍
Post by: juitz on January 30, 2023, 10:57:40 AM
I'm looking to fit the alternator harness, but have a question on the oil pump switch?
I think this is correct, but the elec drwg I think says B/R?
I did reference a photo from the stripdown, but this has the oil switch not connected
Post by: Oddjob on January 30, 2023, 03:27:50 PM
Post by: juitz on February 04, 2023, 03:14:00 PM
Clutch lever - these are the positions I can move it, but I think it should be able to pivot around both sides of the marking on the case? Couldnt find a relevant section in the manual.
Post by: Oddjob on February 04, 2023, 04:20:28 PM
Post by: juitz on February 04, 2023, 04:32:25 PM
Maybe I'm been over cautious but I'm dreading having to split the cases cause I missed something.
Post by: Oddjob on February 04, 2023, 04:38:25 PM
Post by: juitz on February 05, 2023, 10:46:47 AM
I've lapped it once but hasn't really cleaned up the surface. More concerned about the pitting though.
Post by: K2-K6 on February 05, 2023, 11:20:49 AM
Looks like tge head would need to be skimmed also to reasonably establish proper sealing of head gasket etc.
The seats look damaged either from impact or fairly chunky corrosion effects.
Post by: juitz on February 05, 2023, 12:01:39 PM
I've lapped it a few more timeswith fine grade lapping compound and it is cleaning up.
Post by: Laverdaroo on February 05, 2023, 12:21:40 PM
Surprisingly, on my heap, the head was in pretty fair nick, both inside and out and fiddling with straight edges revealed that I thought it was flat. You know, bits of glass to sit it on and feeler guages just to get an idea etc but had it done anyway as a guarentee. The machinist said he had to give it thress passes to get it spot on. Although it looked cock on, it just goes to show that after 40 odd years of use/neglect, things shift about and loose spec really easily. With yours having issues in the past, its 40 quid bud, annoying but get it done.
And it comes back all lovely and shiney................which is nice! ;D ;)
Post by: Laverdaroo on February 05, 2023, 12:25:10 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230205/421a7739ea503ebabb67b7dae286b353.jpg)Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: K2-K6 on February 05, 2023, 01:58:18 PM
The head surface though is considerably more, ahem, agricultural than when it was made. It does look like someone has had an interpretive go at clearing it in the past.
I can't readily see a route to correct re-establishment of the surface other than a skim at this stage.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 05, 2023, 02:00:39 PM
Post by: juitz on February 05, 2023, 02:17:31 PM
I'll take to a local engineering shop to get it skimmed.
Post by: juitz on February 05, 2023, 05:22:11 PM
I think around 1mm from some other posts?
Post by: Bryanj on February 05, 2023, 06:00:42 PM
You may find the valve timing very slightly out due to chain length
Post by: Oddjob on February 05, 2023, 07:19:39 PM
Skimming the head is not too problematic but carefull with the block as skiming reduces the depth of the O ring grooves, which is actualy advantageous as head gaskets are thicker than they used to be so for standard blocks thicker O rings are needed.
You may find the valve timing very slightly out due to chain length
It would be the block surely Bryan? the recess for the o-ring is in the block, the head has just a hole so skimming it would make no difference to the o-ring thickness.
Post by: Bryanj on February 05, 2023, 08:30:46 PM
Post by: Oddjob on February 05, 2023, 11:43:07 PM
Post by: Trigger on February 06, 2023, 07:52:10 AM
I'm just lapping the valves but one of the valve seats has some slight pitting - this was cylinder that was corroded/seized.
I've lapped it once but hasn't really cleaned up the surface. More concerned about the pitting though.
That head needs a lot of work, may need new valve seats, valves , a head skim and when you take it to a engineering shop, get them to check the valve guides ;)
Post by: juitz on February 06, 2023, 08:28:01 AM
Post by: Bryanj on February 06, 2023, 08:50:02 AM
Post by: juitz on February 06, 2023, 12:45:43 PM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275635167268?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=zji3f1rXSTK&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=eMi7QkCfTHq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354329339864?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=8O8R5KZARse&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=eMi7QkCfTHq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314315835930?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=8O8R5KZARse&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=eMi7QkCfTHq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Would obviously prefer not to spend a fortune. What should I be on the lookout for?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 06, 2023, 12:55:26 PM
They refunded me my rear fender.
I've bought a few bits of them for my 500 - they were spot on in terms of description etc.
They are also open to realistic offers
Post by: Bryanj on February 06, 2023, 02:30:53 PM
Would still remove springs and check stem seals though
Post by: juitz on February 06, 2023, 04:48:44 PM
Hopefully all good and have the new stem seals from the vesrah kit.
Post by: Seabeowner on February 06, 2023, 07:21:33 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 06, 2023, 09:55:28 PM
Post by: juitz on February 07, 2023, 12:00:58 AM
It's shown as out of stock - did you buy it then?
Yep!
Post by: Laverdaroo on February 07, 2023, 07:35:30 PM
Post by: juitz on February 11, 2023, 10:20:38 AM
Post by: Sesman on February 11, 2023, 11:29:57 AM
Post by: juitz on February 11, 2023, 11:51:07 AM
I've taken off the valves and springs and cleaning it all up. There's Def some grit - not sure if sand balst media or just carbon.
Post by: Trigger on February 11, 2023, 12:02:04 PM
Just looked through my records and the last 26 heads that i have worked on needed new valve guides, due to being worn or cracked .
Go back 15 years and you could always pick up a workable head. A lot have cracked valve guides and bent valves because of the rockers bending them when the owner forces on the rocker cover.
Post by: K2-K6 on February 11, 2023, 12:02:38 PM
Also the sealing rings around the cylinders has corrosion pits where the fire rings clamp to resist the compression of each cylinder that wouldn't give a reliable face for new gasket to work with. The one with blue zip tie looks the most credible, but others less so.
Assessment of both to see if valve guides are in tolerance would be initially a decent start point.
Post by: K2-K6 on February 11, 2023, 12:10:49 PM
Bearings and most threads look good, gasket needs cleanng off, combustion temps (colours of chamber) look quite good with #1 a bit rich.
Obviously, what's inside is not checked but looks like it's from a reasonably run engine.
Doesn't anyone sell those with their cam cover pair at all ?
Post by: Sesman on February 11, 2023, 01:36:27 PM
Post by: juitz on February 12, 2023, 08:51:38 AM
Cylinder rings have some very slight pitting, can you machine these surfaces? Is there a spec I can point to?
Post by: Sesman on February 12, 2023, 10:17:25 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 12, 2023, 10:19:07 AM
Post by: juitz on February 12, 2023, 11:26:50 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 12, 2023, 12:56:00 PM
Post by: Sesman on February 12, 2023, 02:09:30 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on February 12, 2023, 02:26:56 PM
It's there from original casting mould and not really machined generally.
Function is to "squirt" the unburnt combustion charge towards the spark plug site just as the piston comes up to compression. The spark has already fired (btdc) the mixture, the flame front should be making it's way out radially from that point, the squish accelerating the unburnt towards that front to improve combustion speed/complete burn.
It notably should not have any sharp edges in that critical zone as they may go over temperature and promote pre-ignition firstly.
In reality here, the area will be reduced slightly as the head will move closer to the piston after skimming, meaning that you can gently "dress" this area to clean it up with a rotary abrasive as you've got a little excess material to play with after that skim. Technically you should do the same to each one to match across the four cylinder to keep equal combustion.
Post by: juitz on February 19, 2023, 12:37:19 PM
Pitting on the valve lobes?
Post by: Laverdaroo on February 19, 2023, 12:47:58 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on February 19, 2023, 12:57:16 PM
Some here have had good repair and regrind by Newman cams that may be an option for you. Thats if a decent replacement is not readily available.
Some used one's will equally have problems, it's by no means certain that you'll be able to buy one that's perfect.
Post by: juitz on February 19, 2023, 01:00:05 PM
I'm no expert Dave but I'd be looking for a new one if it was me but like I say, I'm no expert. Thats quite excessive in my book but somebody should be along soon with a bit of 'better earnt knowledge'.
Cheers Roo - I'm leaning towards a replacement but any second hand ones seem to have the same issue.
Did peruse other threads and seems like some people have not had issues with pitting as long a sit doesnt get worse.
Post by: Bryanj on February 19, 2023, 01:17:34 PM
Dont forget if you get a new or reground you should replace or reface the rockers
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on February 19, 2023, 01:32:06 PM
I know little about what would have caused such a mark if it was a foreign object or a breakdown in the hardening from oil starvation.
As Bryan has said if the bike will be little used I think it would take decades for it to become a problem.
Post by: juitz on February 19, 2023, 02:02:58 PM
Rockers look decent, but there are marks on 2 and 3 exhaust rockers.
Post by: Laverdaroo on February 19, 2023, 02:04:01 PM
Post by: Bryanj on February 19, 2023, 03:14:38 PM
Post by: juitz on February 20, 2023, 06:46:29 AM
Check if the rocker shafts have oveled the holes in the cover
Hi Bryan, could you clarify a bit? Not sure which holes to check 😋
Post by: juitz on February 20, 2023, 06:47:33 AM
See, told you I was no expert ;D ;D
All good Roo, to be fair I was leaning the same way which is why I posted 😃👍
Post by: Oddjob on February 20, 2023, 07:27:56 AM
Post by: Bryanj on February 20, 2023, 07:28:46 AM
Post by: Orcade-Ian on February 20, 2023, 09:07:23 AM
Ian
Post by: Oddjob on February 20, 2023, 10:03:03 AM
Clearly the fault didn’t rear it’s head in time for the change to be universal for the 550 engine.
Post by: Orcade-Ian on February 20, 2023, 10:26:07 AM
After reading yours and Bryan's posts, at first I just thought that the immaculate (inside) cam cover i've just tidied up was perhaps a NOS one from a 500 - anything is possible in 47 years and probably multiple owners. Then I did the check on CMSNL and found the change point and the fact that 8 shafts are needed.
Ian
Post by: Orcade-Ian on February 20, 2023, 10:47:49 AM
Ian
Post by: Oddjob on February 20, 2023, 11:58:52 AM
Post by: Orcade-Ian on February 20, 2023, 12:29:09 PM
Ian
Post by: Orcade-Ian on February 20, 2023, 03:01:40 PM
Ian
Post by: Bryanj on February 20, 2023, 05:04:27 PM
Post by: Orcade-Ian on February 20, 2023, 05:21:13 PM
That was my conclusion - might not do any good but certainly can't do any harm, which is always the safest option.
Ian
Post by: Seabeowner on February 20, 2023, 06:57:56 PM
I bought a kit from DSS to uprate to the 4 pinned shafts for one of mine. (kit comes with cover, shafts and pins, but not rockers). 12300-390-305
Post by: Sesman on February 20, 2023, 07:27:50 PM
Post by: Bryanj on February 20, 2023, 07:39:23 PM
Post by: Oddjob on February 20, 2023, 08:17:34 PM
I’d love to know what exactly DS sold you as if you already had the pegged shafts I can’t see how you could improve on that, are you saying you had the old style top cover like the 500 and they sold you a later style cover from a 550 with the pegged shafts? If so I’ll bet that wasn’t cheap
Post by: juitz on March 26, 2023, 02:39:02 PM
Just done a couple of starter motors. I swapped the original cable method with what you describe, a simple stainless steel nut and bolt, I used a socket bolt for clearance inside the starter motor.
Debris inside the casings is common, it's the residue of the carbon brushes inside.
If you look at the 500 parts book instead of the 550K3 one, same starter motor essentially, then it gives the dimensions of both, I know I just bought a load of them as I have 5 or 6 starter motors to refurbish.
Seeing this is common BTW
(https://i.postimg.cc/wv2k5JH3/IMG-2892.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CBZDSRRV)
Not a great idea to leave it like that as a couple of the strands are close to touching the motor body.
I cleaned up everything, totally dismantled the motor including taking the windings out of the body, cleaning the armature etc, replaced the screws holding the windings onto the body with stainless ones, removed the rust from the winding supports, removed all damage from end caps and resprayed with Simoniz silver paint etc
Came out like this
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cx8HP9Y3/IMG-2891.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DS2XmjS6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nfq08nJ9/IMG-2890.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Sjdqkgpk)
The cable was a temporary one I made to replace the battery to solenoid, I also found somewhere selling the rubber boots but that was after I took the pics, I'll cover the connectors with shrink wrap later as well.
Hi all,
Hope everyone is well. Been a little while since I've posted, life gets busy sometimes!
I've found the starter motor cable is too short to reach my electrical tray, and now will look to replace it with a longer one. Is it as easy as drilling out the cable and replacing it with a SS bolt as Oddjob as done?
Post by: Oddjob on March 26, 2023, 04:00:30 PM
IIRC, I cut the cable off right above this collar, I think I ground down the internal part where it's soldered to the cable inside, dismantled the starter then as before I don't think the cable would pull through that collar, you need to release it from the inside. Bit of heat and desoldered the remains of the cable.
Sorry it's a bit vague, it's been a while. I didn't drill it out IIRC, too much chance of damage.
Post by: juitz on March 26, 2023, 04:36:05 PM
I'll try and desolder the stubby bit from internal winding. Worst case, I'll resolder a longer cable.
Post by: Seabeowner on March 26, 2023, 06:58:46 PM
That’s not correct. The later models had 4 long shafts, pinned. Just like the attached.That's what I said, read more carefully. Information comes from which is Honda P/L that may be wrong and shows 4 long shafts for the early models but I've never taken apart an early one. So started with 4 shafts on the KO, then 8 shafts and then back to 4 pinned shafts. As I said I have the kit on SB08 from Aug 76.
Post by: Sesman on March 26, 2023, 08:41:15 PM
Post by: juitz on April 07, 2023, 02:22:23 PM
[attach=1]
It's not the rear drum brake pivot as that's already on?
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 07, 2023, 02:45:50 PM
Alright, at a total head scratch as no idea where this part belongs.On the end of the brake rod, just after the spring.
(Attachment Link)
It's not the rear drum brake pivot as that's already on?
Post by: Oddjob on April 07, 2023, 02:57:09 PM
Post by: juitz on April 07, 2023, 02:58:33 PM
[attach=1]
Post by: Oddjob on April 07, 2023, 03:02:35 PM
Post by: juitz on April 09, 2023, 11:03:54 AM
Purchased a cheapo one from eBay but it's way too long with the current handlebars, assuming I've got the correct routing.
Post by: Bryanj on April 09, 2023, 11:32:20 AM
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 09, 2023, 01:21:51 PM
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Post by: juitz on April 09, 2023, 01:57:20 PM
I couldn’t find one for mine due to the same issues you’re having Dave so bought a kit and made my own. At least then it’s spot on…..
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Hi Roo, it you're happy with it, where did you buy it from?
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 09, 2023, 02:29:34 PM
He’s a really nice bloke and super helpful. Mention you’re from the forum, not for me but if we use him we should tell him where we’re from and then eventually we might get better prices? Maybe? Doesn’t hurt. He’s not dear anyway but yer know
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230409/d0e1269dba5ec985d50e16aadd3e5f42.jpg)See how you get on Dave…..
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Post by: juitz on April 09, 2023, 03:42:06 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 09, 2023, 04:04:46 PM
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Post by: juitz on April 10, 2023, 03:29:24 PM
Really struggling with points adjustments.
I've followed few videos but I can't seem to get the points to close at the F marks.
I'm using a multimeter to check continuity, and for example the 1/4 point is closed until just after these two marks.
[attachimg=1]
When reaching the F mark point is now open when it should be closing?
[attachimg=2]
I set the airgap using a 0.3mm shim by going to 1/4F mark and rotating 90deg unitl I see this tang.
[attachimg=3]
Could the advancer mech be the wrong way around? It is something I checked on here previously to make sure I had it right way around.
Post by: K2-K6 on April 10, 2023, 04:01:14 PM
Just whip the points plate off, then switch the cam in it's location with the swing weight levers (obviously you need to take off a+r untit) shouldn't take long.
Post by: mickwinf on April 10, 2023, 04:06:07 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on April 10, 2023, 04:15:54 PM
Post by: juitz on April 10, 2023, 05:56:58 PM
The points should be closed on approach to F mark and should open exactly on the mark. Move the backplate until it is perfect, then adjust the 3/4 side by moving its own adjusting plate without moving main backing plate.
Cheers,.that makes more sense! I had it backwards.
But I have given it a good many tries and I just can't nail it. Set at 0.3mm and 0.4mm and just can't get the adjustment required. Not sure it's the spark advancer or I'm just fundamentally missing something. Videos show this process to be fairly easy.
Post by: Oddjob on April 10, 2023, 06:04:09 PM
The points should be closed on approach to F mark and should open exactly on the mark. Move the backplate until it is perfect, then adjust the 3/4 side by moving its own adjusting plate without moving main backing plate.
It's 2 and 3 Mick not 3 and 4.
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 10, 2023, 06:07:05 PM
Set it at 0.2 and see what happens.The points should be closed on approach to F mark and should open exactly on the mark. Move the backplate until it is perfect, then adjust the 3/4 side by moving its own adjusting plate without moving main backing plate.
Cheers,.that makes more sense! I had it backwards.
But I have given it a good many tries and I just can't nail it. Set at 0.3mm and 0.4mm and just can't get the adjustment required. Not sure it's the spark advancer or I'm just fundamentally missing something. Videos show this process to be fairly easy.
Post by: Oddjob on April 10, 2023, 06:17:46 PM
TEC are standard points and the best, Daichi are known for not allowing 2/3 to time up correctly unless you reduce the gap.
Post by: juitz on April 10, 2023, 09:45:37 PM
I'll give it a go with 0.2mm shim as well.
Post by: Bryanj on April 10, 2023, 10:06:08 PM
Post by: juitz on April 11, 2023, 09:40:47 PM
If you cant get both side spot on F with 0.35 gap your points are either badly pitted or the fibre heel worn, especially with Tec point
Points are new but they are eBay specials. Didn't think to buy OEM or good quality ones as I purchased the Hondaman ignition unit.
Post by: Oddjob on April 11, 2023, 10:18:35 PM
Looking on the DS website genuine points for 1-4 and the 2-3 points are £29.95 each. Plus VAT and postage of course, that could be the £2.95 or he could charge the usual £7.95.
I have a few sets, not sure how many, I'll do a pair for £40 plus P&P if that helps.
Post by: juitz on April 13, 2023, 06:58:16 AM
You need to bite the bullet and buy some genuine ones, as you won't or shouldn't be replacing them with the Hondaman system they should last for many years. Make sure you oil the felt pad on the points plate so the heel of the points are lubricated or they'll be the part that wears out the fastest.
Looking on the DS website genuine points for 1-4 and the 2-3 points are £29.95 each. Plus VAT and postage of course, that could be the £2.95 or he could charge the usual £7.95.
I have a few sets, not sure how many, I'll do a pair for £40 inc P&P if that helps.
Cheers ,I'll give it a go with 0.2mm as suggested by Julie to see if there is a position to that will work. If so, I'll give you a shout for those points.
Post by: juitz on April 15, 2023, 01:04:55 PM
I'll get those OE points but is it possible for the cam to be also worn?
Post by: juitz on April 15, 2023, 01:06:49 PM
But not 100% sure what should go on the 4 spade terminals?
[attach=1]
Post by: K2-K6 on April 15, 2023, 02:27:30 PM
Ok, so got timing to line up between 0.15mm and 0.2mm.
I'll get those OE points but is it possible for the cam to be also worn?
Unlikely to be worn cam, as same geometry (only one lump) that opens either set of points.
The problem is with the geometry in the points themselves, when fitted they should be exactly 180 apart as that is the position of the crankshaft big ends one from another.
If they can't be adjusted to meet this 180 degree dispersion, there's not much you can do about it but compromise the gap as you've done, or use differently manufactured points that are more accurately manufactured.
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 15, 2023, 02:46:08 PM
. You still on the same number?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: juitz on April 15, 2023, 03:01:12 PM
Dave I’m going out to the shed in25 mins, just out at the min, can you give us a chance to go home and I’ll call you re solenoid as it’s the same as mine but I’ll do it via video call then easier for you mate
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Cheers Roo - tied up today but can do tomorrow if thats ok? And yep , still on same number 👍
Post by: Oddjob on April 15, 2023, 04:34:03 PM
Post by: juitz on April 15, 2023, 05:01:27 PM
Ok, so got timing to line up between 0.15mm and 0.2mm.
I'll get those OE points but is it possible for the cam to be also worn?
Unlikely to be worn cam, as same geometry (only one lump) that opens either set of points.
The problem is with the geometry in the points themselves, when fitted they should be exactly 180 apart as that is the position of the crankshaft big ends one from another.
If they can't be adjusted to meet this 180 degree dispersion, there's not much you can do about it but compromise the gap as you've done, or use differently manufactured points that are more accurately manufactured.
Ok thanks for the info. I'll get in touch with Oddjob as he said he may have some OE to sell.
Post by: juitz on April 16, 2023, 05:44:17 PM
Have a question on the wiring of the Hondaman transistorised ignition with an m.unit blue.
Can/should/is the black wire from the Hondaman unit is wired to the "ignition" output from the m.unit and teed to the coils?
Post by: Oddjob on April 16, 2023, 06:49:15 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 16, 2023, 06:57:45 PM
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Post by: juitz on April 19, 2023, 09:37:38 PM
Changed my circuit so now have 12v supply to the coils as I missed this. Still not getting any spark at the points though, but have new OE ones now that I will install.
However, today playing around and checking the system I am blowing the main fuse again. I'm a bit confused as I can sometimes turn on and start cranking with the starter motor, but I started looking at the alternator and sometimes when I wiggle the green and white wires the fuse blows. This indicates a short to me.
It's just inconsistent that I can turn the ignition on and sometimes be ok, then moving the green / white cable can lead to the fuse blowing.
I've removed the sheathing and can't see any broken connections or insulation.
I do have a second and probably bigger issue that I damaged one of the dowel holes due to a broken bolt so alignment on the coil/rotor/stator is iffy. I had to do this with one dowel.
Should I start with a replacement field coil?
Took some measurements on the bench and got this
Field coil - 4.9ohm between GRN/wht on bench
Stator- continuitu between all 3 phases and 0ohm phase-phase resistance
Update:
Removed the stator so only had the rotor and field coil. Measured continuity between green and white to ground and at no position with the good dowel moving the cover around can I break continuity. Took off the gasket and same thing. No matter where I try and move its always grounded.
Taking off the good dowel and I can find a small position where it's not grounded.
There are signs of wear on the inner and outer part of the rotor but thought "it will be fine" when I put it back together as the field coil and stator looked ok.
So I'm thinking either field coil and rotor are buggered, or worst case and my nightmare is a bent crankshaft?
Post by: Oddjob on April 20, 2023, 12:03:30 AM
Remove the sprocket cover and make sure you haven't rushed any of the wires coming from the alternator against the crankcase, very easy to to this if you're not careful.
Post by: juitz on April 20, 2023, 12:27:37 AM
Post a pic of the broken dowel hole, is it in the crankcase or the casing?
Remove the sprocket cover and make sure you haven't rushed any of the wires coming from the alternator against the crankcase, very easy to to this if you're not careful.
It's on the crankcase - the one highlighted here. I'll take a pic tomorrow
[attach=1]
No cover reithe as I haven't fitted this on yet as was looking for a replacement chain protector bracket. It does have the original cables but they looked ok. But the cables are now "floating" and off the frame.
The continuity to ground.check I did with the multimeter connected to the green and white wires coming.off the coils and to the battery gnd terminal. So nothing upstream of the circuit to short to ground.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 20, 2023, 12:00:26 PM
As it is part of centering the alternator I think it's important to find a fix.
Post by: Bryanj on April 20, 2023, 04:02:09 PM
Post by: juitz on April 20, 2023, 11:27:57 PM
Replaced points with OEM units kindly supplied by Oddjob. points gap now set at 0.4mm and lined up (ish) with F marks using the original condensers. No spark ☹️
Getting 12v at the coil black wires and also feeding the Hondaman unit black wire. Other wires connected correctly.
Anything else I can check? Ignition Coils seem to be ok BUT I refurbished them using the tips / tricks method on this site and I could have quite easily messed this up 😂
Post by: Oddjob on April 20, 2023, 11:35:49 PM
Disconnect the Hondaman unit until you get it running, don't add things that could be at fault, add them when you find the fault.
Check the yellow and blue wires for continuity, make sure they haven't been broken or trapped. Disconnect them from the coils and the points and see if they leak to earth, they shouldn't do.
After that report back.
Post by: juitz on April 20, 2023, 11:54:25 PM
Isn't the coil feed wire black/white? as in coming from the kill switch?
Disconnect the Hondaman unit until you get it running, don't add things that could be at fault, add them when you find the fault.
Check the yellow and blue wires for continuity, make sure they haven't been broken or trapped. Disconnect them from the oils and the points and see if they leak to earth, they shouldn't do.
After that report back.
Ok will try without Hondaman unit. But yes, I meant the black/white wires. Will double check continuity and connect points directly to coils yellow and blue wires.
I'm not feeding the coils black/white wires via the kill switch as I dont have one. I'm feeding 12v from the ignition output from an m.unit blue.
In general terms, trying to follow this https://revivalcycles.com/blogs/technical-articles/mo-unit-wiring-diagram
Post by: Oddjob on April 21, 2023, 12:10:53 AM
Post by: andy120t on April 21, 2023, 02:24:22 PM
https://rupesrewires.com/marks-honda-cb550/
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 21, 2023, 03:42:40 PM
Dave are you just using the key to stop the engine then????
Post by: juitz on April 22, 2023, 12:07:37 PM
Not a great diagram for what Dave doing,the revivalone is by far the easiest and simplist to follow.
Dave are you just using the key to stop the engine then????
Apparently, double tap of the start button is supposed to be the "kill" switch of the m-unit. Can't test this though 😉
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 22, 2023, 12:10:24 PM
Sorry, brain fart!
What switches are you using Dave?
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Post by: juitz on April 22, 2023, 02:07:07 PM
Yeah that’s right, sorry I thought you were going kickstart only for some mad reason when I typed that. Even after you asking about solenoid etc!
Sorry, brain fart!
What switches are you using Dave?
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Using Motone button switches on this build.
So, bypassed the Hondaman unit and bike fires up!
Doesn't idle though so bit of tuning required.
Post by: Oddjob on April 22, 2023, 02:08:34 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 22, 2023, 02:23:34 PM
I chose not to wire it in until the bike is run in and sorted so I didn’t have the hassles you’re experiencing at the min.
I’ve still to get things set up in the bench engine wise and bob it on after an initial shake down on the road.
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Post by: juitz on April 22, 2023, 03:48:17 PM
You sure you wired the Hondaman unit up correctly?
Probably not! 😂 I'll go through the connections again but had the missus double check the colours on wiring as I'm colour blind.
This is what was going to the points.
[attach=1]
Post by: andy120t on April 22, 2023, 05:19:22 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 22, 2023, 05:31:16 PM
I believe convention is left coil (Blue wire) is for cylinders 1 & 4.
Right coil (Yellow wire) is for cylinders 2 & 3.
Looking at the contact breaker plate left side points are for cylinders 1 & 4 (wire is Blue).
Looking at the contact breaker plate right side points are for cylinders 2 & 3 (wire is yellow).
Post by: Oddjob on April 22, 2023, 05:42:21 PM
Post by: Oddjob on April 22, 2023, 05:58:51 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 22, 2023, 06:33:14 PM
Doesn't work like that for the Hondaman system Ted, there are 2 other wires you need to jump into the blue and yellow wires, I'll see if I can find the wiring diagram and let you know.
I read the post that he was not initially fitting the Hondaman system just running it on points first the when all is good fitting the Hondaman system.
Maybe I misread the intention - I think that's Roo
Post by: juitz on April 22, 2023, 06:41:53 PM
Can’t find the wiring diagram but looking at it, the blue goes to the blue bullet connector coming up from the points, same for yellow. The purple goes to the blue coming down from the coils and the orange to the yellow. Black to the brake light switch and don’t forget the green must be earthed on the points plate.
Green wire - wonder if this is my mistake as I earthed it to frame and didnt run it to the points plate. I will try this tomorrow 👍
Post by: Bryanj on April 22, 2023, 08:43:30 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 22, 2023, 09:41:37 PM
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Post by: Oddjob on April 22, 2023, 11:32:50 PM
Post by: juitz on April 23, 2023, 03:51:29 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230422/a4bc571d7bf8a752fcd54e341708a67f.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm putting my hand up, and declaring that I'm an idiot.
Black wire had a case of open circuit-itis.
All running so now onto tuning timing and carbs.
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 24, 2023, 02:53:42 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 24, 2023, 03:13:34 PM
Post by: juitz on May 06, 2023, 05:06:41 PM
Hope everyone is having a great long weekend so far.
I'm onto the carb tuning now, but was wondering what these two ports are for?
Also, I'm using an aux tank but my carbs overflow. I've taken them apart about 3 times to check the float heights and they're all at around 22+/-1mm. The height is set with the carb asst on its side and they are barely touching the valve.
I'll check that all the passage ways a clear again.
Any other tips?
Post by: Laverdaroo on May 06, 2023, 05:21:31 PM
Presumably you cleaned the pivot pins that the floats swing on Dave?
Tried tapping the bowls?
Sworn a lot?…….
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Post by: Laverdaroo on May 06, 2023, 05:22:43 PM
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Post by: juitz on May 06, 2023, 06:13:49 PM
You could use let petrol and don’t have it so high in the aux tank, just reduce the head. Weight so to speak? Might be squeezing it passed the valve???
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Lots of swearing today Roo!
But yes, great suggestion as I've got a lot head pressure as.the aux tank is really high up.
I'll try it with it closer to where the actual tank is supposed to be
I'll add some hose to those other 2 overflow pipes as well.
Post by: Laverdaroo on May 06, 2023, 07:45:41 PM
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Post by: Oddjob on May 06, 2023, 09:35:14 PM
They'll make no difference at all to flooding carbs.
Have you changed either the needle float seat or the needle float valve itself? Aftermarket ones are known to cause problems with not seating correctly. Head shouldn't factor into it, my sons VT1100C uses a fuel pump and normal float valve seat and it stops that from pumping past the seat.
Set the float with the carb top removed and it resting on the top of the carb. That's best but if you don't want to remove the carbs you'll want the tang on the float JUST touching the pin on the float valve without starting to compress it.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 06, 2023, 09:41:52 PM
Post by: juitz on May 07, 2023, 03:46:45 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on May 08, 2023, 01:00:00 PM
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Post by: juitz on May 12, 2023, 07:05:54 PM
Ok, so please don't bash me too much but I'm trying to tune my bike with a 4into1 delkevic system and a steel dragon airbox. Unfortunately I found out too late that best option is to keep the stock airbox, but too late now.
Anyway, bench syncd the carbs using a 3mm drill bit (don't have 1/8"), aftermarket 42 slow and 110 main after reading some threads as a starting point. Kept original needle and emulsion tubes.
Moved the needles from 4th to 2nd from bottom as exhaust was coming out black so too rich?
Also installed a digital ignition system from 4into1.com - will keep the Hondaman system for the next build 😉
Have done static set of the difital ignition, and vac syncd bike using carb#1 as master.
Have tried 1/2 turn to 2 turns on mix screw without much success.
Bike struggles to idle below 1.5krpm. Revs crisply but a bit slow to return idle.
With current settings, bike won't idle below 2krpm when warm and with idle screw fully out.
Any suggestions for next steps?
Post by: Oddjob on May 13, 2023, 02:19:34 AM
2nd from bottom makes it richer not leaner, think about it, you lower the clip, which raises the needle in the slide, the higher the needle the more fuel you allow through. Put the clip in slot 3 and start from there.
Try turning the vac screws back out a few turns, each one, it may be that the slides are sitting too high and that's why the bike won't idle, setting the slides lower may cure that. Just make sure all the gauges are the same and alls good. If anything go too low with the slides and set the idle with the idle screw.
Post by: juitz on May 13, 2023, 03:02:52 PM
I think I may have a problem and hope it's not a major one.
I've been adjusting the clutch position and moved the kickstart lever out of the way. This morning I tried the kickstart and worked straight away.
But just now after working on the clutch I tried again and heard a little click. Now the kickstart just spins.
Has something come undone / off and do I need to worry and break open the engine?
The lever spring returns the lever but it won't crank.the engine - I can only feel the return spring.
Checked the clutch and it looks to engage/disengage. The rear wheel spins in 1st gear but I can stop it with my foot when I disengage the clutch.The kickstart is supposed to work with the bike in N and clutch engaged.
Post by: commando1954 on May 25, 2023, 08:47:25 PM
Post by: Oddjob on May 26, 2023, 12:10:50 AM
Cheers, Oddjob, suggestions have got me to a semi decent running condition. Bit more to do though but at least it idles at just under 1.5krpm and starts straight away. 👍
I think I may have a problem and hope it's not a major one.
I've been adjusting the clutch position and moved the kickstart lever out of the way. This morning I tried the kickstart and worked straight away.
But just now after working on the clutch I tried again and heard a little click. Now the kickstart just spins.
Has something come undone / off and do I need to worry and break open the engine?
The lever spring returns the lever but it won't crank.the engine - I can only feel the return spring.
Checked the clutch and it looks to engage/disengage. The rear wheel spins in 1st gear but I can stop it with my foot when I disengage the clutch.The kickstart is supposed to work with the bike in N and clutch engaged.
Circlip has come off Juitz,l as you suspected when I was telling Ted to make sure to fit a new one.
Post by: juitz on May 27, 2023, 09:03:10 AM
/quote]
Circlip has come off Juitz,l as you suspected when I was telling Ted to make sure to fit a new one.
Yep, confirmed.Found these treasures in the bottom of the sump
This is sub-optimal. Aside from the pain in trying to get the assembly back in without removing the engine. Can I just leave it as is and only use electric start.
This feels like a "next winter" job[attach=1]
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 27, 2023, 10:29:48 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52909098042_138e40bc33.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oBoXwj)kick start parts in order (https://flic.kr/p/2oBoXwj) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
Post by: juitz on May 27, 2023, 11:01:24 AM
I would make sure you have all the washers as well. One might be in the ratchet end
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52909098042_138e40bc33.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oBoXwj)kick start parts in order (https://flic.kr/p/2oBoXwj) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
Yeah, Def a problem here as I'm missing the slotted thrust washer between the pinion spring and ratchet. Gonna chech my assembly pics but was sure I did this correct.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 27, 2023, 12:31:09 PM
Pretty sure you can wiggle them off with a bit of patience - a magnet on a telescopic shaft might help.
Can't see a problem in using it without the kick start mech in place - you could take the lever off to reduce weight etc.
Post by: juitz on May 27, 2023, 01:14:01 PM
The washer might still be on the shaft end inside with the bigger spring?
Pretty sure you can wiggle them off with a bit of patience - a magnet on a telescopic shaft might help.
Can't see a problem in using it without the kick start mech in place - you could take the lever off to reduce weight etc.
Yeah found it stuck to the pinion gear.
But all back together now with new circlip. Works again 😄
Thanks again, help as always immensely appreciated 👍
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 27, 2023, 01:16:36 PM
Post by: Matt_Harrington on May 27, 2023, 01:42:26 PM
If you did that through the sump you have passed your stage 1 Gynaecology practical exam.
:D :D
Post by: davidcumbria on May 27, 2023, 04:33:25 PM
Post by: juitz on May 27, 2023, 04:49:11 PM
If you did that through the sump you have passed your stage 1 Gynaecology practical exam.
Oh dear 😂😂
Post by: Oddjob on May 27, 2023, 05:38:21 PM
Post by: juitz on June 03, 2023, 07:22:02 PM
I think it's 18mm but the two I've purchased don't fit.
I could just buy an OE one but would prefer to save £20 😉
Or would one of these be ok to use? The body on mine is ok, it's got the dual output but the tube, orings and gauze are stuffed.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224064453335?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=_p-q3hvvQhS&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=eMi7QkCfTHq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Post by: davidcumbria on June 04, 2023, 10:32:33 PM
https://www.amazon.com/CB400F-CB550F-CB550K-CB750F-CB750K/dp/B0B6F2CG8Y/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2G5O57QHYL1TP&keywords=CB550+tap+20mm&qid=1685863363&sprefix=cb550+tap+20mm%2Caps%2C196&sr=8-1
Post by: juitz on June 05, 2023, 09:11:25 PM
This is what I’m thinking of for mine. Reckon it’s a 20 mm connection
https://www.amazon.com/CB400F-CB550F-CB550K-CB750F-CB750K/dp/B0B6F2CG8Y/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2G5O57QHYL1TP&keywords=CB550+tap+20mm&qid=1685863363&sprefix=cb550+tap+20mm%2Caps%2C196&sr=8-1
Cheers. Ended up getting one from 4into1 along with some new main jets. Cheaper option than new or the repair kit.
Post by: juitz on June 10, 2023, 03:55:54 PM
Took my cb550 project bike out for its maiden ride today. Aside from the panicked moment I had when the bike sputtered and stopped, then realised I had previously turned off the petcock it went well.
Carbs need further tuning but I am hearing quite a distinct rattle sound at higher than 2000rpm. Varies if accelerating or not but it's there. It kinda sounds like a chain is rubbing? I have a new timing and cam chain and have adjusted the cam tensioner twice.
As I don't have a previous baseline, im not sure if this is normal? Anything else that I could be?
Post by: davidcumbria on June 10, 2023, 07:16:44 PM
Post by: Oddjob on June 10, 2023, 08:02:22 PM
Post by: juitz on June 11, 2023, 09:59:02 AM
Do you have the updated valve cover with pegged rocker shafts ?
I'm not sure to be honest. How can I tell which one I have?
I'll see if I can get a video, but doesn't sound like a clivking / ticking noise though.
Gears maybe but doubt it.
Post by: Bryanj on June 11, 2023, 01:21:47 PM
Post by: Oddjob on June 13, 2023, 12:45:51 PM
Pull the clutch in, engage a gear and let the clutch out until it just starts to bite, rattle still there?
Post by: juitz on June 24, 2023, 04:10:05 PM
I dlidnt install the stopper for the centerstand so the chain was rubbing the stand - doh!
Stopper installed along with new chain and another lesson learnt.
Im now looking at a few items:
Since these engines don't have temperature gauges, how do people determine if they are running too hot?
I'm trying to set the idle at 1300rpm, and it Neutral it will be ok. When I pull the clutch and select first gear the rpm drops around 100rpm and sometimes will stall. Further cable adjustment or at the adjustment screw?
Also getting a ticking sound - not sure what's normal on these engines but will check tappets, valve clearance and apparently exhaust header gaskets?
Post by: Oddjob on June 24, 2023, 04:18:14 PM
Post by: juitz on June 24, 2023, 04:26:58 PM
1300 is a fast idle, 1200 is around normal these days for these engines, 1000 is ideal. If the engine is starting to stall when the clutch is in and 1st gear selected I'd say the clutch is dragging a little. Does the clutch cable run to the left of the engine or the right? if left, check the clutch push rod isn't broken. Grease up the mechanism as well if you have the push rod version, which I suspect you do.
Gulp! 😂 Im still working on the carb tuning, and 1000rpm feels like a million miles away.
I've run my clutch cable on the right side of the bike but as I've learnt it's not necessarily correct! Ran it down the right as it fits bewteen the no3 and no4 carb bodies.
I didn't replace the clutch plates but they were free/loose when I I stalled them and within thickness spec.
Post by: Oddjob on June 24, 2023, 05:12:55 PM
Post by: Bryanj on June 24, 2023, 05:22:22 PM
Post by: Oddjob on June 24, 2023, 05:24:16 PM
Post by: Bryanj on June 24, 2023, 08:57:01 PM
Post by: juitz on June 25, 2023, 01:33:19 PM
So have improved the clutch position sufficiently for now that it doesn't stall.
Went on a bit of trial and error on to find the source of the ticking noise but no luck so far.Used screwdriver to try and pinpoint but no luck.
1. Checked exhaust headers and tightened the nuts - few of the could take almost a full turn but no success.
2. Readjusted the cam chain tensioner - did move it half a turn when running to see if went away in a different position.
3.Removed a couple of the tappet covers and nothing obvious. Will double check clearances next weekend.
4. Disconnect spark plugs one at a time - ticking doesn't go if a cylinder is not firing.
I did note that running only 3&4 will ifle but only 1&2 it needs a bit of throttle? Carb synch issue? I vac synced them last week though.
Do the tappets have lateral as well axial clearance? I
Post by: davidcumbria on June 25, 2023, 03:49:53 PM
Post by: juitz on June 25, 2023, 04:13:39 PM
Very long shot but based on my recent experience could it be the kickstart ratchet touching the pinion? This has been confused with primary chain noise in some other threads.
I'll add it to the list. Given the fact that I just put the kickstart assembly together through the sump access its totally feasible.
I do have a spare set of exhaust washers from the vesra kit as I used the ones that came with the delkevic exhaust. I'll try and replace the washers and reseat 5h3 exhaust next weekend.
Post by: juitz on July 02, 2023, 04:26:29 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on July 03, 2023, 07:45:55 AM
https://youtu.be/MDIkDb_HhKw
https://youtu.be/gDDK6ZOxmno
Post by: Oddjob on July 03, 2023, 08:36:24 AM
Post by: Laverdaroo on July 04, 2023, 01:35:12 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: juitz on July 08, 2023, 05:41:47 PM
Definitely a few things to address, specifically the sub-optimal idling. But it did a round trip to work (70 miles) and got back in one piece.
Thankyou so much to everyone with all the help and advice over the last 18 months with this project. Bunch of legends!
Like i said, few things to address still but to me a successful build.
Next up will be a 500 or 550 restoration to original.
I'll keep posting on this thread as I am sure I'll find a few more issues 😂
Post by: juitz on July 15, 2023, 12:40:36 PM
The bike will struggle to return to idle of 1100rpm when hot. It will sit at around 2000rpm. Tweaking the idle screw can help but it's overly sensitive.
So I thought to double check for any air leakage into the carbs, rubber boots, seals, etc.
Was a bit short on wd40 so sprayed a bit of carb cleaner at the carb area. When I spray the inlet manifold my engine will stall. Tried it with wd40 and nothing really happens. Sprayed carb cleaner again and it stalls again.
The engine is hot but I can't see anything being sucked in, it looks like it just evaporates. I'll try again with a cold engine but bit stumped why it stalls in the first place and why with one and not the other?
Maybe need to replace with new oring seals? I happens on cylinders 1 and 4 by the looks of it.
Post by: Oddjob on July 15, 2023, 01:29:11 PM
Have you changed the orings on the inlet manifolds at any time?
Post by: juitz on July 15, 2023, 01:42:32 PM
It stalls with one but not the other because one is very volatile and the other isn't. What colour are the plugs? Have you checked the rubber insulators for cracks? Are the alloy washers on the vac screws? Probably looks like 1 and 4 because those are the outside cylinders so easier to get the carb cleaner to them.
Have you changed the orings on the inlet manifolds at any time?
Rubber insulators are brand new and I put new orings that came with the vesrah seal and gasket kit I purchased from David Silvers. But I think i am missing the alloy washers on the vac screws you mentioned. Missed these from what I can remember so i'll get some on order if I can find the part no (not seen in the parts manual)
Post by: Multiman on July 15, 2023, 02:54:24 PM
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Post by: juitz on July 16, 2023, 04:10:30 PM
Went through the carb vac sync again as well and seems ok-ish.
The bike still hangs at around 2k but it does drop back to 1300rpm idle after a second or two. I did note though pressing on the brass caps on the slider mechanisms it will return to idle immediately. Does this indicate a sticky mech?
Throttle cables look to have enough slack.
Also, bike revs ok up to a semi aggressive throttle twist, but going full WOT instantly the engine will cutout?
Post by: Bryanj on July 16, 2023, 05:03:57 PM
Post by: juitz on July 17, 2023, 03:57:10 PM
Sounds like you may have bench synced with the slides too high
I'll go back and do the bench sync again - went straight into vac sync after the manifold changes.
Post by: juitz on October 03, 2023, 11:50:06 PM
Had family visiting from overseas so been busy playing host and not playing with the bike at all!
Finally getting back to it over the last few weeks and I'm still stuck on the carb tuning at idle. I'm now at the point where I'm looking at further increasing the idle jet size to a #45 and see if that improves things.
Does anyone know where I can get them in the UK or EU? Have looked at US sites and it's usd$60 to ship!!!
Post by: Johnny4428 on October 04, 2023, 08:05:58 AM
Got mine from here.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 04, 2023, 09:29:45 AM
I worked on the basis that I could speed the idle up easily by adjusting the one screw on the throttle link.
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 04, 2023, 11:34:51 AM
Hi everyone, it's been a while.
Had family visiting from overseas so been busy playing host and not playing with the bike at all!
Finally getting back to it over the last few weeks and I'm still stuck on the carb tuning at idle. I'm now at the point where I'm looking at further increasing the idle jet size to a #45 and see if that improves things.
Does anyone know where I can get them in the UK or EU? Have looked at US sites and it's usd$60 to ship!!!
Dave,Im off over there next week but not back until crimbo (21st Dec), happy to drag anything back over for you if it helps mate. I'll be putting in 'a jets' order anyway when I'm there.
Let ,me know......
Post by: Bryanj on October 04, 2023, 03:39:55 PM
Post by: Oddjob on October 04, 2023, 04:03:46 PM
If that doesn't work then look to maybe alter the carb settings.
Post by: juitz on October 06, 2023, 06:24:25 PM
Will try again oddjob with your method, otherwise will see about getting jets from Sirius (not wrong about the website). Last option will be Roos courier service!
Serenity now!
Post by: juitz on October 07, 2023, 04:35:15 PM
I fully closed the carbs and started the process again. I seemed to get it to a point where it returned to idle, but when I took it for a spin it stuck at 2krpm again. Seems like when running at full temp it needs a bit of work.
The idle screw is almost all the way in though but maybe has.just enough adjustment to get it to work.